To groove or not to groove

[Vosselman]

'02 Twincan
SE / Arias 95ci 22863-00 8cc domed pistons
Reworked stock heads with SE perf heads valves
0,030" headgaskets
CR 10.2-10.35:1
Wood TW6H -> cranking between 195-200

After reading all the posts the last year about grooves:

To groove or not to groove this combination.

[wfolarry]

Can't hurt

[PoorUB]

Although the jury is still out whether it does any good, there is no evidence that it can not hurt either. Groove 'em!

[Faast Ed]

cranking between 195-200

There's one of the reasons to try them.

[ederdelyi]

Austin Powers voice on:

"Grooovy, Baaaby!"

Austin Powers voice off:

Depends on your expectations and goals. With bathtub chambers, as others have said, likely can't hurt.

Morning, Larry :>)

[tireater]

I get 30 extra miles per tank on the bagger...I think it is groovy...! 

[wfolarry]

mornin' ed :
Since he's from the other side of the pond he should give it a try.

[Sonny S.]

Not one person that has " tried " them had anything negative to say, so ..........

[Faast Ed]

Not one person that has " tried " them had anything negative to say, so ..........

True dat, but there are plenty of 'non users' that hate them with a passion.   LMAO!

[Sonny S.]

Not one person that has " tried " them had anything negative to say, so ..........

True dat, but there are plenty of 'non users' that hate them with a passion.   LMAO!

They're SKEERED   

[Deye76]

Ain't Skeeered! I'm gonna try 'em.
We get some lousey gas here. And I'm "ping" paranoid

[Vosselman]

Thanks for the replies.

Ederdelyi,
"Depends on your expectations and goals".

Reading all the positive feedback about better burn, easier hot starts, less ping I think this one with 195-200 estimated cranking would be a good candidate.
But I hate to ruin a good set of heads.

If you and WFOlarry say it can't hurt, I will just give it a try.

Is 0,080" wide and deep near the headgasket and 0.125" deep at the chamber OK?
Larry, I saw some pictures of grooves that you made. One with flat 'sides' and one V grooved. What do you recommend?

[wfolarry]

Here's a picture of the tool I used when I first started doing them. [I had a 2 flute made to the same shape so it would cut faster] I set the head up in the mill at a 15* angle & cut. With a tool like this it takes a few passes. Put a head gasket on there so you know where to start [or finish]. I'm zero at the gasket & finish about .120 deep at the chamber.
I'll try to post it later.

[ejk_dyna]

<<If you and WFOlarry say it can't hurt, I will just give it a try.>>

Well read Ed's words carefully-

"With bathtub chambers, as others have said, likely can't hurt."

I think Ed left himself.... a little wiggle room.... 

[Faast Ed]

I think Ed left himself.... a little wiggle room.... 

LOL  Yeah, I'm not sure he's sold on the grooves. He has been easy on us guys that are sold on them, though.

[mountain man]

I live in the Greenville SC area can anyone recommend a shop out here to do the grooves ?? Larry what do you charge to groove a set of heads??THANKS MM

[Faast Ed]

Larry what do you charge to groove a set of heads??THANKS MM

WFO Larry has a phone number listed at the "Indy's" link on this board.

I'd recommend calling him for a price (not sure he's allowed to post one on the board).
He is not expensive at all.

[Killer]

>>But I hate to ruin a good set of heads.<<
This is my dilemma, I have a nice set of ported SE heads…should I, or shouldn’t I groove.
Oh hell…

[bbqjmaki]

Killer, If you don't like the grooves you can always weld them up. after all the reading I have done on this, I grooved a set to put on my new build in a couple of weeks. I used a 1/4" 15 deg end mill. stayed .100 away from gasket and tapered it to .100 deep at chamber, Did a straight 3D line on a FADAL CNC mill took about 30 min. to set up and cut, but I guess I'm lucky since I'm the shop foreman at a job shop. But I'm really looking forward to putting this one together, since it will be a copy of my last build except on a ultra this time. Andrews 26G's , Big bore kit with fat tops, stock heads done by Big Boyzs 83 cc's, .030 cometic, PC3, Last bike I ended up with 94 hp. 104 tq. Can't wait to see on this one.

  John   

[Sonny S.]

John,

Did you cc the heads AFTER the grooves were cut ?  If not, you could be at 84+ now.

[bbqjmaki]

Sonny , I did not, after all the talk and reading I thought WTF just do it, if the build falls short I will do something else, winter time is the time to try something out. Dark when I leave for work dark when I get home, shop has heat and lights. Sonny my last build with 26's would ping on a real hot day, my thoughts try this see if it helps. Not racing just like to ride a good running bike with low end TQ.

John

[Sonny S.]

John,

Yes I remember the dyno from your last build.
I was just asking about cc because of comparable testing. I know you don't want your bike to ping, and that's the bottom line....understood.
If it does not, " groove nay sayers " will contribute it to the fact that you are running lower compression.
If the power is less, those same people will say that the grooves are to blame for the loss of power..... ya see where this is going ?  LOL     

[bbqjmaki]

Sonny, I will do a ccp on the new build the old build had 193# . We will see what the new build has maybe that will be good enough for the naysayer's (nawh it want be)
  Sonny, one more thought I have access to a dyno (get to use it for next to nothing) what do you thing about going to longer length rocker arms with Andrews 26's think it might gain me anything?
John

[bbqjmaki]

Sonny, Some of the naysayer's will even get to gas is different blend now.I have not used the grooves yet, The grooves have been around for a while, nobody whats to spend time and $$ it would take to prove they work or not. So we can keep  It makes for some good reading at times and few laughs at times. That's what so great about this board, A lot of knowledge posted with good arguments on both sides no matter what the topic is.
 John  

[ederdelyi]

>>The grooves have been around for a while, nobody whats to spend time and $$ it would take to prove they work or not.<<

And then, there may be some of us who have done their own R&D, drawn their own conclusions and simply don't want to argue the point with either camp. It still comes down to what your goal is. The guys who are striving for max power likely could give a damn about mileage or mid range ping. There is always at least two sides to every story ... I have a hard time with folks who can't understand that and just have to insist that their way is the only way. If it works for your goals and needs ... cool. If not, don't use 'em or try 'em. Seems fairly simple to me ... BWTFDIK :>)