What do we want in a Tuner ?

[FLTRI]

I'm curious from both the pros here as well as home brew folks who have experience tuning using existing software/hardware (please no screwdriver tuning devices), what features you feel is desireable or even necessary to ease and simplify tuning procedures.

So, after you see the different tuning devices and what the do and how the work and look, how 'bout some suggestions as if someone were writing a tuning system from scratch.

The likes and dislikes of the existing tuning systems would be interesting as well.

Who knows....may someone will be listening...?
Bob

[1FSTRK]

FLTRI
I started writing this exact post this morning. I was struggling with the wording but I think you said it just fine. I'll be back with my list.
Great start for a thread

[FLTRI]

Only good can come from this IMO.
Bob

[Lama]

Being uneducated to the world of ECM tuning, but having spent wayyy too much free time TTS tuning my bike, (which I feel the TTS system is excellent). I am going to make my wish list based off of the TTS method of V-Tuning:

1) Having a theoretical camshaft profile estimator, or calculator, for the user to load as the initial basis of a canned starter map. Of course, having an exhaust and intake estimator would be nice also.

2) The ability for the program to "self blend" the ENTIRE VE chart, based off of some sort algorithm that computes what the best VE's *could* be for these un-tuned or unsampled ranges, using known captured data from cells in nearby VE ranges as the estimator.

3) The ability for the system to adjust timing in real-time during the entire tuning process, to allow the VE's and timing to work in harmony to obtain the best tune, quickly.

4) The ability of the system to allow for an external trigger or control head to be fitted to the bike that would allow for multiple tunes to be stored and accessed "on the fly", such as an "economy" tune, a "daily driver" tune and a "sport or performance" tune.


5) The ability to do ABS brake bleeding resets.

6) A "warrant" ghost reset trigger to allow the ECM to be flashed with the stock ECM MAP ID code without actually reloading the stock ECM flash.




My $.02

[FLTRI]

GUYS! This thread is NOT about an existing products or future unreleased products.

Please start another thread for sales pitches and development updates...if the mods will tolerate it.

This is all about what users/tuners, etc want to see in a tuning product.

Thank you LAMA for your input.....wait til the V-twin show in February to decide which product will meet your expectations and needs...I think you will be surprised.

As far as using this thread to bitch about what has not been provided, please use another thread or start your own thread for this.

Again the intent of this thread is to hear from users and tuners to list (as LAMA did) desires for tuning systems.

Thanks,
Bob

[mayor]

now back to our regularly scheduled program...

I'm curious from both the pros here as well as home brew folks who have experience tuning using existing software/hardware (please no screwdriver tuning devices), what features you feel is desireable or even necessary to ease and simplify tuning procedures.

as a laymen...I'm curious as to why there needs to be a calibration?  what are we calibrating?  I might be over simplifying things, but aren't we just talking about afr and timing controls? 

why can we just type in the afr values we want for various loads, and then some fancy algorithm software figure out how to make it happen on the fly?

why can't there be a pop-up window in the "all-in-one" software to give info on when the spark retard needed to be employed?  why can't the software have algorithm's to self adjust timing...afterall, there's already triggers in place to sense spark knock. 

[Sam45]

Posted by: FLTRI
Thank you LAMA for your input.....wait til the V-twin show in February to decide which product will meet your expectations and needs...I think you will be surprised.



So is that a hint of something else coming down the road?   

[FSG]

I find the Tit for Tat bickering offensive, especially considering the professionals (!) it's coming from, can go and stay elsewhere.

[HogBag]

edited by Coyote : Off topic belongs in Earl's place.

[BigD]

As a home tuner, I would like something with the capailities of the TTS system, but with the added ability for it to tune in real time.

I also like Lamas suggestion for it to do timing tuning in concert with VE's. 

I would like it to have a handlebar mounted 7 or 8 inch touchscreen display.

I would also like it to come with a free Dynojet 250i

[BVHOG]

edited for content

[ultraswede]

If I could have the same functionality in a HD tuning product as I have for my
GM truck, Hptuners (.com) I would be very happy.

All the tuning products for HDs are sadly lacking compared to what is the norm for GM cars.

I am sorry, but the list of what is missing om HD tuning products is to long to list.
If you relay want to know, ask some one with a HPtuners licence to show you the software!

Edit,
Just counted, there are 52!!! places I can do adjustments to the engine Tq handling in the ECU software.
There are may 100s of adjustment that can be made with the truck softwares.

Guess who is manufacturing the GM ECU I am referring to above.....Delphi.
Make you wonder what adjustments we cant reach in the TC softwares available to us at this time.

[hrdtail78]

1.  I would like to see a ECM programable tuner that works in conjuction with WinPep.  If I am calibrating VE's traditionaly, it takes time typing before each pull.

2.  On the fly adjustments of course. 

3.  I would like to see the X, Y axis on both sides, top and bottom of the graphs.

I wish all I did was dyno max effort builds and really cool stuff.  Truth is most of the stuff I see coming through is stage 1 and 2's.

[FLTRI]

If I could have the same functionality in a HD tuning product as I have for my
GM truck, Hptuners (.com) I would be very happy.

All the tuning products for HDs are sadly lacking compared to what is the norm for GM cars.

I am sorry, but the list of what is missing om HD tuning products is to long to list.
If you relay want to know, ask some one with a HPtuners licence to show you the software!

Ultra,
It would be much more help to go ahead and let us know which features of HPtuner that apply to tuning Harleys, that are not available with the present tuners like TTS, SEST, etc than simply state there are just too many to list.

I feel if the tuner mfgs can see and hear for themselves what CUSTOMERS desire/need rather than what the mfgs dictate to the end user, it may open their eyes to meeting market demands and expectations.

Thanks for your input,
Bob

[ultraswede]

The problem is that I don't know what is acesslible in the TC ECU, and I guess very few of the HTT members do know either.

My comment of 52 Tq related adjustment give you a hint of what might be hidden from us.

[Don D]

I could see a cooperation between software / hardware vendors, end users and tuners, all three would raise the bar significantly, enabling better quality tunes, more accessible, and of higher quality. This would take changes in hardware, software, and training by all.

End User,

NOTE: Some of these features exist but others do not.

I would  like the software to be one integrated package. By that I mean one program runs to do all tuning, uploading and logging functions. By the end of my tuning I would like to bring my motorcycle to a qualified trained tuning professional to fine tune it.

My goals:
1. Correct the VEs for the full operating range. A very visible GUI with flashing cells in the VE table would be helpful so road tuning is not so hazardous. Use broadband O₂ sensors for tuning VEs
2. Adjust starting, accel and decel parameters if needed.
3. Calibrate the map pressure actual vs program read. To me that is something that falls into the same bucket as the other constants. I also think it is an annoyance to have to toggle through maps before a realistic MAP pressure registers.
4. Perform data logging and view all spark activity not just the "fast retard" and AFV (integrator numbers, short term fuel trims).   
5. Adjust timing
6. Adjust constants
7. Adjust the software to allow DBW bikes to perform equally to cable TB bikes, limits removed

If the software\ hardware are integrated properly that should not be a tall order for most individuals that ride these bikes today as long as they possess intermediate computer skills , nor is it a huge deviation from the current products and abilities needed today.
With these improvements the process of just getting a motorcycle ball-park tuned and running safely so the motor won't be hurt is much more achievable and accessible to more people then the current state of the art.
So most users will be able to give the tuner a good running motorcycle, but one that can be put on the dyno and further power and torque mining can be done and minor annoyances corrected.

Tuner \ Hardware & Software Vendor
There are too few trained professionals. How crazy s it for an end user to send his bike across the country to get it tuned? This happens, believe me.
In order for the number of sucessful tuners to increase there needs to be better software and hardware, plain and simple. Less keystrokes (more mouse control) and less screen changing. Pocket PCs or more convienient devices to control the dyno and tune with. More training! Shops need to step up and equipping with new software and hardware, if they can justify it. As soon as Dynojet gets into using the tuning link concept to correct VEs with no Power Commander, Winpep tied directly to the Delphi, a major step forward will happen. They are going this way with the new PCV but IMHO it needs to be integrated into the tuning session on the dyno. Hit all the cells for a cylinder, upload, move on. Of course there would have to be stops to cool.
Now the biggee timing. Use the Dynojet torque module along with data logging from the Delphi to do steady state torque measurements and in similar tuning link fashion correct timing values for maximum torque, buffered from detonation due to the logging feedback

I speak freely as an end user and don't know or really want to know why these things can't be done, this is just a wish list and is a collaborative idea.

My 2c, need a coffee now

[FLTRI]

Don,
Thanks for spending the time to respond in detail.
IMO nothing you mention is unreasonable.
As you mentioned...will it be justified?
Answer is simple. Yes, if the business comes back to levels prior to the economic crash.

If the economy stays stagnet, only the strong will survive.
Strong means listening and responding according to market demands...quickly.
Strong means outstanding, knowledgeable customer tech support.
Strong means prices that are commensurate with cost vs benefit.

Good info for those mfgs listening,
Bob

[Don D]

Very true!
Sometimes shops look at ROI and really tuning for a performance shop may not have a stellar ROI but the connective business sure flourishes and really putting these motors so far from stock spec. makes a good staff tuner and the best hardware and software essential, an overhead expense rather than a profit center.

[greg1140]

It sure would be nice if we had choices other than Screaming Eagle cams for the maps. From most of the threas that I have rea on HTT most of the buils are not using Harleys cams or pipes, so it woul be nice to have a starter map that is closer to your buil.

[mayor]

as a laymen...I'm curious as to why there needs to be a calibration?  what are we calibrating?   

I'm with mayor, I'm curious too.   

...anyone?     is it VE's?  timing? hi-map ranges?   

[1FSTRK]

How about a tuning device that is so adjustable that it doesn’t need some inaccessible base codes that may or may not match your build.

The stock ecm is more than capable of handling the job it’s just programmed to the bike the way it left the factory, set up for epa and warranty requirements.

The on going argument as to what is important (like injection timing) and what is not is irrational. It’s all important or it wouldn’t be in there. Once you admit its important now you have to admit it’s important to have it match each individual bike after the alterations are made.

It is the job of the software designer to write this in a format that most people can follow.
A failure to do so will cause the product to flop. We as consumers don’t mind learning something new if it helps to achieve our ultimate goal but make no mistake the motorcycle and being able to constantly experiment to improve its performance is our ultimate goal. The tuning device is just a tool to allow us to finish the job.

The product that gives us the most adjustment options, in the must user friendly format will always win.

[wavlovr1]

I think harley should hire engineers to redesign the HD ECU completely. It should have sensors to determine the optimum settings for everything under any condition and adjust accordingly and automatically. It should include interrelated data intake and control functions connected to other systems on the bike; rear wheel spin, ABS, lean angle, cornering, suspension systems, etc. to support many modes of operations. Something like; EPA mode, Track Mode, Sport Mode, Drag race mode... I know, I know, BMW is most of the way there already, and that may well be my next motorcycle purchase after years of financing HD..

With the technology available today (do you think they have to tune the space shuttle?) there should be no need for tuners, electrical or human.... OK, there will be many arguments about why this is not possible, but having worked with rocket scientists and engineers for 7 years, I say "HummBugg", they just don't want to spend the money on R&D.... So, in answer to the question, I'd like to see a tuner that takes the HD a little closer to the goals above.

JMO, jb

[Herko]

"I think harley should hire engineers to redesign the HD ECU completely.".

Could be that Delphi has offered HD diverse systems, but the system(s) currently employed on the production models are based on cost effectiveness while still meeting the EPA gates etc.

[FLTRI]

So, in answer to the question, I'd like to see a tuner that takes the HD a little closer to the goals above.
JMO, jb

Offer up the same R&D budget the Space Shuttle got and give to the right engineer(s) then watch the bikes tune them selves.

Unfortunately budgets for these types of low volume products are usually from a very small business or even from an individual's wallet, not a Government funded space exploration project.

Consequently, the money for new product reverse engineering and existing R&D must be driven by sales forcasts of very small perportions compared to high usage items.

Bob

[1FSTRK]

Are we still talking user accessable tuning options?

[FLTRI]

Are we still talking user accessable tuning options?

Yes, and hopefully without the need to reinvent the "wheel", but to use what there is in existance, to work with...which IMO is a very powerful tool.
Bob

[strokerjlk]

just a low dollar tuning device that allows access to the ecu. no extras. one for dyno tuners. no extra features like data log, auto tune, v tune , smart tune. price it around 200.00
as long as we are wishing. 

[hotroadking]

Been some good ideas here

I'd like to see a more comprehensive collection of data on every run, not only V-tune data but all data
why can't it collect both data at the same time so we can tie fixing detonation issues at the same time
we're setting VE's.  It would cut runs in half.

Also easier access to the data area information, the way you have to select factors is cumbersome
and you should be able to store reports for the data that you use consistently vs having to go back
and reset the fields you want each time... (if you can I haven't found out how)

Extrapolation of higher VE from data in VE runs accepted, this should be a no brainer, I'm not sure why I need to do the math and set each cell when the software should be able to do this without any problems as long as the formula is the same....  If a liability issue is perceived for "making that change" for the end user put a disclaimer button you accept the changes. 

Factors should be set up for bike.  In that it's always going to be the same bike you tune every time because every manuf setups the connection to be vin related, there should be a table where you setup engine, injector, speedo, all those factors, it's a pain when you tune and upgrade maps with VE's to have to click OK for the speedo setting everytime as if I'm making changes to that, as well as the ACR, those should be base settings for the bike, done at the initial setup.   You could even select cam profile, CUI, exhaust, etc

Just a few things. I'd have more but I'm not looking at the thing right now.

[Mr. Wizard]

Been some good ideas here

I'd like to see a more comprehensive collection of data on every run, not only V-tune data but all data
why can't it collect both data at the same time so we can tie fixing detonation issues at the same time
we're setting VE's.  It would cut runs in half.

Knock retard could also be fuel. So, until your VE's are properly calibrated and your AFR/Lambda is reset any knock retard you see during the VTune process will be useless information to you.

At lest this is the way I understand it.


-wiz

[Steve Cole]

One also needs to understand that there is a data limit in the system. So the more you ask for the slower it comes out. If the data comes out to slowly it is useless information. This is why DataMaster has the various data stream information to select, as we are trrying to keep the speed of the data through put up to an acceptable level.

[hotroadking]

Wiz true, but as you tune, the VE's are getting set, so you would at least be
one step ahead, and you would know it's fuel related as you could see the data
and compare the results from ve run to ve run, so the knock goes away, all other things
being constant the VE may have fixed it.. 

I'd like to see the data run graph selection a little less cumbersome,
it's almost like a report writer tacked onto the data file...

At least let us save the reports that way you can go back and click
Spark Knock Table, AFR, TPS, or whatever reports you like if we have to
makeup  our own it would be nice to be able to recall them vs. rebuild them run
after run.

I know that using my old P2 laptop I got half the data
that my friend gets using USB on a newer laptop so there
is that issue...

[rbabos]

I'd like tts to be live edit in some areas. That's all.
Ron

[FLTRI]

From the tuners here:
Would you be willing to pay extra for a live tuning system for your dyno?
Bob

[FLTRI]

Bump

[TXP]

We basically already have one with Vtune. Look at how much more accuracy we have, albeit a little harder to achieve with a sort of hybridized method from old way to new way with the Mastertune product and Vtune to what we achieve with say powercommander and tuninglink. Sure TL is fast and I've always liked the fact I can blow one off the dyno with a two cyl tune about every 35 to 45 minutes depending on the configuration of the unit. Good money there but you can never be as accurate with an add on product. The heavier the mods the more this shows. Customers are generally happy with the results, but TL is not perfect by a long shot, its only as good as the user. Like any other tool. I would REALLY like to see a FAST semi auto program similar to vtune to dial in timing faster and more accurately. That is to me the most important obstacle left to overcome. Fast timing adjustment. My official tuning wish for the New Year.

[FLTRI]

Good info and I agree, we need auto-tune timing, but I wonder what's kept that from being done.
I do know one thing:
Customer/market demand drives product development.
Bob

[choseneasy]

I had heard one time that patents were the biggest obstacle to getting auto-timing. Not sure of the validity of this comment--- maybe others have some insight?.....

[TXP]

I definitely wonder how practical an "auto timing" feature really is. I have noticed many times on 100% roll ons on the dyno in 5th gear, particularly in the lower rpm's, timing is removed via ion sense that is difficult if not impossible to reproduce when testing on the road. We are creating unnatural load conditions which produce unnatural data IE the excessive timing reduction due to those unnatural conditions. I'm sure other tuners are well aware of this anomaly as well. What are your thoughts on this?

[Don D]

I would like to see the timing work similar to the way the AFV works in an adaptive way. therefore fast retard could deal with conditions such as this dyno high load deal but not commit to a permant change unless this same condition is observed a programmed number of occurances with some tolerance for temporary conditions. Adaptive Timing, so to speak.
Still wonder with all the technology we have at our fingertips why nobody has invented and properly packaged a MAF sensor to add with the Delphi. I know about manifold pulsing maybe there are work arounds.

[1FSTRK]

From the tuners here:
Would you be willing to pay extra for a live tuning system for your dyno?
Bob

I talked to both of the tuners that I have used and they both said yes in a heartbeat. After all that is what power commander does. They charge for their tuning link software

[TXP]

They sure do. $1500 for the first one year lease after you pass their course in Las Vegas and $1250 per year on renewals. Anyone who is now a Dynojet approved "tuning center" will have to be re certified this year after the July 1, 2011 renewal deadline in order to remain a tuning center and be "eligible" to lease the TL software. But TL is about speed, not necessarily accuracy. If you are doing a large enough volume of Powercommanders its well worth the money. If your PC volume is low, then its a waste of money. So only higher volume shops will consistently invest in this type of software or any other "autotune" type software for whichever product. It all boils down to cubic dollars. The term "autotune" is really kind of a misnomer in my opinion. Maybe tuning aid software is more accurate. I don't think we are going to see a software replacement for an experienced dyno tuner anytime in the near future.

[1FSTRK]

I think a dyno shop version of TTS would be a lot different than just the speed that tuning link gives. I may be wrong in that assumption, but add access to a few more advanced tuning needs and through in live tuning, sell it to dyno shops and you've got a winner. Nothing will take the place of a experienced pro, but the better his tools the better the end result.
I was just pointing out that dyno shops are purchasing addition shop software for tuning.

[FLTRI]

I think a dyno shop version of TTS would be a lot different than just the speed that tuning link gives. I may be wrong in that assumption, but add access to a few more advanced tuning needs and through in live tuning, sell it to dyno shops and you've got a winner. Nothing will take the place of a experienced pro, but the better his tools the better the end result.
I was just pointing out that dyno shops are purchasing addition shop software for tuning.

Bob

[TXP]

I don't disagree with that at all and I would like to see such a product made available..AND AFFORDABLE!!

[1FSTRK]

We all know the scramble to make a self tuning; everyman’s device will take precedent because of the large number of customers they reach. Both of the original reflash tuning devices really began to take off when they added software to help the owner tune with the use of the bikes O2 sensors. I wonder if the manufactures take into account the sales that come from the dyno shops and motor builders recommending their products purely because they offer more manual  features and are therefore more tunable once on the dyno. I switched both bikes over because my dyno shop said that once I got the bike the best I could that he could start from my base line saving time on the dyno to dial in the many settings that you need a dyno to adjust. This cooperative effort leads me to a better understanding of how my bike works as well as the complicated and important roll the dyno shop plays. It also led to many discussions on the “what if side”. I am convinced that so many of the addition controls discussed on this forum would be very useful when an experience builder or tuner is testing a new combination that may ultimately become the new seller in the market place. We have wondered how many times combinations  have been dismissed as bad because we could not monitor or adjust something going on behind the seen. I know on my first Delphi bike with a piggyback device we would get erratic results from WOT timing runs only to find out  later that the Delphi was pulling out timing that we could not see. I was sold on my builders fast tight chamber design needing less timing but that was not what the dyno was telling us. I temporarily gave up on bikes and went back to cars because they had more on the ball. The new trend to give more user control over the bike ECM is what brought me back. I know that not many set out to build for the edge of the envelope, compared to the numbers that just want a little more sound and power we don’t even show upon the chart. I also know that after testing and refining my last two bike combinations the shop went on to sell many copies of this design and everyone used the same tuning device that was used in the testing on my bike, every single one. I just feel that in a competitive market place just like in racing the one that stops trying to do what everyone else is doing and steps out of the box to go beyond the accepted limit will be the one to prevail. I’m working on my next big motor already and the builder says that if the new tuning device allows him to tune to meet the needs of the unique intake and cam timing events that I’ll be one happy camper, if not maybe back to cars again until they catch up.   

[FLTRI]

...in a competitive market place just like in racing the one that stops trying to do what everyone else is doing and steps out of the box to go beyond the accepted limit will be the one to prevail.

Hopefully those companies who provide these tuning systems listen to their customers and react. This produces a win-win for all involved.
Bob

[hotroadking]

JMO the system will have to be very logical from a user standpoint.

An engineers viewpoint on user access is generally poor, having designed
several ops systems for large companies, I can't tell you how many times the software engineer
would spend hours developing a page for say data entry, only to find out he felt his way was
the correct logical way to do something,  ..... only then to find out the data came in a different order
or method, and his "right way" doubled the errors and time.

You have to get in the trench with users, you have to look at how they see the information
and how they are using it (right or wrong) so you can develop the interface to reduce the
steps and errors....

Once we made him follow the data format we cut data entry time significantly....


I would think JMO that the average user is going to see the PCV mini screen as simple and easy to use
and the TTS/SEST as difficult based on the user interface,  or intimidating... 

I would like to see a way to capture data for TTS without having to haul a laptop around (like my TwinScan)  I don't see why the "dongle" or "Key" couldn't be modified to have enough memory to capture information and
transfer to the software vs having to haul my laptop and buy special cables etc....

Making it easier is the key, and I think they need to offer wide band sensors, or if not do the math and
complete the whole map based on known data, it makes it easier and eases the mind of the user.  think about it, the formula exists, so why have to sit there and complete 40 to 50 cells per map....

[Steve Cole]

So as features get added and parts get added to make these new features work how much are you (the customer)willing to spend for it all? Most anything can be added but it all has a cost and has to be paid for in the long run. What we have currently has kept the price down so it's the balance of how much to add at what cost the user is willing to pay. If the sales volume was like cell phones that would be great but it's not and it's never going to be so the cost is going to be paid by fewer people so the unit price goes up as things get added.

[hotroadking]

That wasn't just for TTS, its for any product I just think it's the way products will go.

You have to consider growth isn't in the home hot rodder alone, but
from the guys that want to  change the tune and run cooler

Buddy of mine went and popped on Xieds not for more power but
because his legs were roasting and he was tired of it... 

Big market in that, and to do that you have to offer a simple interface
for many users or they are just not going to get the product. 

Of the 4 guys using a tuner software all of them come to me
saying they like it but they are not going to mess with it....

It either gets done by me as much as possible, or to a dyno...

If the product is just a gateway to the ECM for a dyno tune
it has one value to an end user vs a full fledged tuning device.


The question is going to be, what is the developer willing to invest
to maintain or gain position in the market. 

[Steve Cole]

As a developer we always have to look at what people want and what people are willing to pay for the things they want. Let's face it, it all has to get paid for one way or the other. So each developer has to figure out a way to design build and support a product on what income it brings in or your not going to be around very long. Development doesn't end once a product ships and in the ECM tuning end of it you are always working on the code that the OEM's keep changing. This model year alone there has been 5 new ECM's and 3 new sets of code to work out along with required hardware changes to support it all. So the investment is high on the development side of things just to keep going without adding anything new to the products.

That said the new release of our software is in final check out. We had hoped to be done already but the end of the week is looking more like it. This new software update adds what some have asked for. The ability for Vtune to extend the data all the way to 100kPa. Now you have to collect enough data for it to be able to work but if you do, it will now extend it if you want it too. This only required us to update Mastertune, DataMaster and Vtune and then check it out on about 30 various models of ECM's and 10 sets of ECM code along with several Windows versions from Windows 98 to Windows 7!

[mayor]

This new software update adds what some have asked for. The ability for Vtune to extend the data all the way to 100kPa. Now you have to collect enough data for it to be able to work but if you do, it will now extend it if you want it too.

ok, you peaked my interest.  the new software, can a current user pay to update what they have now? does it work for the '09 systems? 

[Steve Cole]

No a current user cannot pay for it, it's a free update that will be on the updater once released for all TTS prodcut owners. It works on all Delphi equipped HD bikes that run TTS closed loop.

[mayor]

so this will be a free update, that a current user can't even pay for?     great!   

[WVULTRA]

No a current user cannot pay for it, it's a free update that will be on the updater once released for all TTS prodcut owners. It works on all Delphi equipped HD bikes that run TTS closed loop.

Steve:  Is the update Tuning Guide available yet? 

Looking forward to the enhancements!

[rbabos]

As a developer we always have to look at what people want and what people are willing to pay for the things they want. Let's face it, it all has to get paid for one way or the other. So each developer has to figure out a way to design build and support a product on what income it brings in or your not going to be around very long. Development doesn't end once a product ships and in the ECM tuning end of it you are always working on the code that the OEM's keep changing. This model year alone there has been 5 new ECM's and 3 new sets of code to work out along with required hardware changes to support it all. So the investment is high on the development side of things just to keep going without adding anything new to the products.

That said the new release of our software is in final check out. We had hoped to be done already but the end of the week is looking more like it. This new software update adds what some have asked for. The ability for Vtune to extend the data all the way to 100kPa. Now you have to collect enough data for it to be able to work but if you do, it will now extend it if you want it too. This only required us to update Mastertune, DataMaster and Vtune and then check it out on about 30 various models of ECM's and 10 sets of ECM code along with several Windows versions from Windows 98 to Windows 7!

Win98. You are kidding, right? Looking forward to the updates.
Ron

[Steve Cole]

No a current user cannot pay for it, it's a free update that will be on the updater once released for all TTS prodcut owners. It works on all Delphi equipped HD bikes that run TTS closed loop.

Steve:  Is the update Tuning Guide available yet? 

Looking forward to the enhancements!

Have not even started writing the changes yet. It's pretty much the same operation as before. Once you have collected the data Vtune will ask you if you want it to auto extend the data. If you answer yes it will, No and its just like it is now. If you select Yes and there is not enough data at a given RPM point that RPM will not be extended. So just as before you have to collect the data to enable it to work properly, nothing we can do about that.

As for Windows 98, Yes our product runs on all versions from Windows 98 to Windows 7. This will be the last software version that is going to do that. The future things we are working on require a faster PC with more memory and newer software to be able to use the features.

[BVHOG]

As a developer we always have to look at what people want and what people are willing to pay for the things they want. Let's face it, it all has to get paid for one way or the other. So each developer has to figure out a way to design build and support a product on what income it brings in or your not going to be around very long. Development doesn't end once a product ships and in the ECM tuning end of it you are always working on the code that the OEM's keep changing. This model year alone there has been 5 new ECM's and 3 new sets of code to work out along with required hardware changes to support it all. So the investment is high on the development side of things just to keep going without adding anything new to the products.

That said the new release of our software is in final check out. We had hoped to be done already but the end of the week is looking more like it. This new software update adds what some have asked for. The ability for Vtune to extend the data all the way to 100kPa. Now you have to collect enough data for it to be able to work but if you do, it will now extend it if you want it too. This only required us to update Mastertune, DataMaster and Vtune and then check it out on about 30 various models of ECM's and 10 sets of ECM code along with several Windows versions from Windows 98 to Windows 7!

Interesting, on the present version we were led to believe that it was not a good idea to run these WOT areas at the very lean mixture required to V-tune, have you been able to get this done while keeping a reasonable afr target at wot?
As for your future changes I would suspect the ability to edit some tables real time. Am I close?
As for the cost of updates to stay competitive that is great for us as a consumer, every time a new tuner comes out with some added features it is a plus, that is as long as the price stays competitive. I realize it puts a pinch on the manufacturer but if not for competition one manufacturer would have a monopoly and charge accordingly.  If features are just being added for the sake of change or an apparent advantage the people that do this on a regular basis will see it for the fluff it is.
I also believe this is a very copy cat industry, the various tuners and cals are way to similar for it to be coincidence.

[TXP]

Will the 2011 softail CAN bus be part of the upcoming release, or is that a little further down the road?

[HogBag]

  One step ahead for TTS and two steps back for the rest

[Jeffd]

being I know nothing about these I am wondering why it is so hard to get the 80-100 kPa cells sorted.

[strokerjlk]

Bob the way I read it...it wont sample the areas above 80 kpa . it is just going to extrapolate those areas.
so it will use the same ve generator to guess for you.
thats ok i guess if you just want to pick a AFR to let it generate to. what most dont understand is when you move away from stage 1 . add cams,heads,compression,diff pipes, that work good. you cant just arbitrarily pick a AFR. diff combo's require diff fuel to make power and run right. a good set of heads require a diff AFR than a set that dont work as well. same as some cams specs compliment a good set of heads,while other make a so-so set work better.
then diff rpms with diff heads require diff AFR. when guys get away from thinking 12.5 or 13.2 makes the best power and find out what EACH indivual motor needs they will start to see there is no set AFR that ALL motors want.

[BVHOG]

Bob the way I read it...it wont sample the areas above 80 kpa . it is just going to extrapolate those areas.
so it will use the same ve generator to guess for you.
thats ok i guess if you just want to pick a AFR to let it generate to. what most dont understand is when you move away from stage 1 . add cams,heads,compression,diff pipes, that work good. you cant just arbitrarily pick a AFR. diff combo's require diff fuel to make power and run right. a good set of heads require a diff AFR than a set that dont work as well. same as some cams specs compliment a good set of heads,while other make a so-so set work better.
then diff rpms with diff heads require diff AFR.

when guys get away from thinking 12.5 or 13.2 makes the best power and find out what EACH indivual motor needs they will start to see there is no set AFR that ALL motors want.

And that is exactly why we still need dyno tuners.

[jluvs2ride]

How about the ability to mark cells as "Locked". So I can select all and increment or deincrement the values except for the "Locked" cells.

[burgies08ultra]

i have just been reading along here, but seems to me we never get above 50% throttle to get the ve's set.. i would think we need wot too??/ does the ecm know what wot ve's are by only setting them at less that 50% throttle??? or am i just missing something here?
burgie

[Heatwave3]

Bob the way I read it...it wont sample the areas above 80 kpa . it is just going to extrapolate those areas.
so it will use the same ve generator to guess for you.
thats ok i guess if you just want to pick a AFR to let it generate to. what most dont understand is when you move away from stage 1 . add cams,heads,compression,diff pipes, that work good. you cant just arbitrarily pick a AFR. diff combo's require diff fuel to make power and run right. a good set of heads require a diff AFR than a set that dont work as well. same as some cams specs compliment a good set of heads,while other make a so-so set work better.
then diff rpms with diff heads require diff AFR.

when guys get away from thinking 12.5 or 13.2 makes the best power and find out what EACH indivual motor needs they will start to see there is no set AFR that ALL motors want.

And that is exactly why we still need dyno tuners.

Help me understand what makes a motorcycle engine unique that it "needs" a dyno to be properly tuned? Boat engines, car engines, truck engines even airplane engines can be properly tuned to peak performance without a dyno. Is this need for a "dyno" to tune a bike's engine,  "induced" by the industry and "helped along" by crippled, closed loop ECUs as well as limited tuning software or is a motorcycle engine somehow unique compared to other engines?

[HogMike]

Help me understand what makes a motorcycle engine unique that it "needs" a dyno to be properly tuned? Boat engines, car engines, truck engines even airplane engines can be properly tuned to peak performance without a dyno. Is this need for a "dyno" to tune a bike's engine,  "induced" by the industry and "helped along" by crippled, closed loop ECUs as well as limited tuning software or is a motorcycle engine somehow unique compared to other engines?
[/quote]

Well, we don't really NEED a dyno do we?
I have ridden the bone stock bikes lately and they run just fine.
I just got back from a road trip in the M-B car and it runs just fine, no dyno tune, no tuner, etc. Any kind of gas any altitude. It does what it was designed to do. Yes, I can take the M-B to someone and have it's "performance enhanced", but, that's not my thing with that car. My hot rods have carburetors and run just fine with an "ear" tune. No dyno for those and no desire to get the last 2 HP out of them.
My bikes run just fine thank you, only the last two have seen a dyno and don't run any better than my older ones with an "ear" tune, that I can notice. The newer bikes are not as fast as my EVO, but, that's just a factor of more $$$$ into the EVO!
All the cars and bikes are "fun" to drive/ride, each has it's own personality. Some require a choke, some are F.I. Are we missing the "fun factor" chasing the last numbers on a dyno?
You racers out there, well, that's another story! I can understand why you want that last 2 HP!
Do we really need/want that for the street??
JMHO

[FLTRI]

Reminder: This thread is for input for what folks want to see in a tuner not to decide if a tuner is necessary.

Thanks for keeping this on topic,
Bob

[Jeffd]

Motorcycles are so much lighter then boats, cars or trucks.  You might not feel 10hp in a car but you do on a bike.  Do I win a prize?

[Steve Cole]

Well I need to make a correction to what I said on Windows support with this next release. This new version will only work on Window 2000 and newer. We finally had to drop support for Win 98 with this version. The updater will automatically take care of this for you if you have an older Windows system it just will not allow you to update. As for the debate of what extending the VE tables are going to do let first forget about what some people are trying to spread and deal with the facts.

When the HD system is operated at sea level the range that the any HD engine operates in is about 25 kPa to 100 kPa, at 6000 ft above sea level that range changes due to less barometric pressure to about 30 kPa to 83 kPa. The higher you go the smaller the operating range of the engine gets. So Vtune will correct, provided you collect enough data in all the area's from 26 kPa to 83 kPa directly to what you set the mixture to be within the systems operating range. The new versions will take that information and extend it to 100 kPa. You will be able to see what gets extended and what does not, right on the screen. You also have the ability to not use the extend feature if you like. If you do not collect enough data it will not extend.

The system calculates the required fuel delivery based on the air entering the engine, so once the MAP sensor hits it highest limit you can crank the throttle open as far as you like and it does not change, at that RPM. So looking at a VE table that is based on TPS if you hit 100 kPa at sea level at 25% TPS no more air is going to enter the motor at 30, 40, 60, 80 or 100% TPS. This is the way it works, no magic or anything else, so with this in mind if you are above 80 kPa and below 83 kPa at 20% TPS Vtune will calculate and correct directly into that location. Now what do you put into the rest of the locations from 25 - 100% TPS? Since we know that at 25% TPS the system has reached max limit would it not be the same VE value over and over again? The answer is YES and this is what the new feature is going to do for you automatically if you select it.

2011 Softail support is going to be down the road further. The Softail switches to CAN communications which requires a new interface and all new cables. We expect to have product in the March time frame. All new molds have had to be made to support the CAN product so it takes sometime to get everything made and approved then start production.

[brunothedog]

will v-tune compensate for the higher rpm of the revolution motors?

[Steve Cole]

Vtune works up until 6000 RPM, above that we feel the system is too slow reporting data and corrections out. We could allow it to run higher but in testing this is what we found so we stopped it there and do not recommend running a V-Rod above 6000 RPM in closed loop for this reason. At some point you reach the limits of the components and this is where we feel safe with the components on the HD bikes.

[FLTRI]

Vtune works up until 6000 RPM,...

What??!!! No closed loop tuning over 6000rpm??? How can an owner expect to get a good tune when the thing wont V-tune over 6k? 
Bob

[brunothedog]

this must be for air cooled bikes i presume then, the Revolution motor is at its best over 6000rpm
any suggestions?

[Steve Cole]

I understand that the V-rod is water cooled but that has nothing to do with the data rate the ECM sends the data out at and the rate that it updates the sensors. If we felt it was safe we would raise it as it's not that big of a deal for us to change the setting but that's not what testing showed us. Also most Vrod owners are not running those RPM during normal riding but most certainly do when hotrodding around. The motor runs well up to 9000 RPM stock and if you straighten out the valvetrain they run 11,000 just fine. You are going to have to use old fashion tuning methods above 6000 RPM.

[BVHOG]

I understand what you are saying about the throttle position after 100 KPA (assuming sea level or close) and it may not be that big of a difference but the throttle blade angle WILL affect the way the air enters the motor even at max KPA. Not enough to be a big difference but a difference in VE nonetheless.
So with your new addition to the software I am to assume that you still are not sampling all areas but simply extrapolating the data in each row out past where the bike hits the max KPA areas?
So to keep this on topic for what we want in a tuner it would be a great addtion to the TTS tuner if it had an analog box that gave feedback from two broadband sensors enabling  afr feedback to tune the older bikes and not need the conversion to 02 to do only 85% of the running conditions.
Dynojet now has it, Technoreasearch has the capability to input analog data as well.

[Sc00ter]

Vtune works up until 6000 RPM,...

What??!!! No closed loop tuning over 6000rpm??? How can an owner expect to get a good tune when the thing wont V-tune over 6k? 
Bob

[hrdtail78]

I understand what you are saying about the throttle position after 100 KPA (assuming sea level or close) and it may not be that big of a difference but the throttle blade angle WILL affect the way the air enters the motor even at max KPA. Not enough to be a big difference but a difference in VE nonetheless.

Some of that affect can also be negative.  Fuel stand off comes to mind.  This is easily seen with a CV carb and dyno.

Dynojet now has it, Technoreasearch has the capability to input analog data as well.

Do they?  Not being a smart ass, but we haven't seen anything from dynojet on this besides advertisments.  I don't want to look at the PCV to see how the new stuff works.  People on here are talking about the product like it's been tested in the feild and is perfect. (not directed directly at BV) When really, there is probably 1 or 2 people on this site that have used it.  I am sure it will come out and hopefully it does everything as advertised, but untill then. well....

Seems what most people are looking for is short cuts.  When it come down to tuning a bike.  It's work.  Some of the work is not as hard and some builds will exhaust you.  But still work.  Talking with other tuners, I found that a lot don't even understand fully the tools that are given to us already.  A lot of the homegrown tuners are the same.  An example is PE mode.  I had a concept and understood what it did.  Until I had to get in there and mess with it for tuning.  Now I can say I understand it better.  I would love to see a tuner that does everything, one stop shop done.  Reminds me of the Kobolt multi wrench.  I think TTS is the closest out there so far.  Looking at Ken R's post and website backs up my thoughts on this.  If Steve would come on here and say his product will do 100% of the tune and need no other tools to squeeze every last drop I would be leary, and acually put him down on the FOS list. 

[1FSTRK]

Subject: What do we want in a Tuner ?
This is the place to ask for what ever we want.
Please stay on subject. Someone important may actually be listening

[DaleW]

If that someone is anybody other than Steve Cole, why havent they had anything to say before?

[mayor]

I think that post may have been directed towards me.    afterall, I am important in my own mind.   

[hotroadking]

Don't think everyone is looking for a cure all and most understand that to get a
proper tune you should take the software dongle and cable to a qualified dyno
shop, pop out the visa and get it done once correctly.

No doubt that you'll get the tune you want out of that scenario.

However for on the street vtuning there are things that would make
obtaining the results easier on the end user (meaning average joe).

Things like extrapolating the cells, this completes the table,
probably in areas the bike will never see mechanically but it makes
people feel good that they have a figure in the 0 RPM 100% throttle position
even though it's physically impossible to obtain 0 RPM at WOT LOL

I can only speak to TTS, and DTT as I've used both. 

I love the advantage of the data recorder for the twin scan,
and not having to haul a laptop on the bike,

The screen from the PCV - data recorder is nice as you
can target cells,  I can't hit the 75 throttle cells for nothing
no matter how I ride so the screen helps me target specific cells
and obtain sufficient data.   An advantage of a supplied data
recorder is that it's been tested to pull data (or receive data)
at an expected rate.  We ran my old P2 laptop with xp via serial
against a new PC with Win7, USB and at the end of the run
his data logging showed double the hit count... DOUBLE. 

So having a consistent ability to obtain data, good data makes sense.

The other thing would be an option table for doing Vtunes where you don't have to
click the same thing over and over and over, RPM for Gearing, Exhaust, etc  Seems like we
should be able to setup gearing and exhaust in a base table for the bike and if we want it changed
we do so  there.

Also tuning options, DE on or off, same thing a table where you set your options and it stays that way, also when you select VTUNE - it sets all cells to 14.6 and PE, everything that needs to be set
to do a tune should be set when you select TUNE MY BIKE... 

Heck my tour pack vibrates and the small pc screen I'm having a heck of
a time just looking for the pointer LOL

Just saying that for End users, there probably are some "ease of use" things that
would allow some basic common defaults to be input and selected and not have to
be reset every time you go to tune...

that and the data run mapping area needs some refinement.. JMO

[wurk_truk]

I think the tuner market will fracture in the not too distant future.

1). For the Stage 1 or 2 guys.  The folks that 'tune by ear' or 'it's as good as my MB' folks that want it just DONE.  With closed loop bikes now being over 5 years old... the things like 'fuelers' and XIED, etc... will become Passe, and something will be needed for those applications.

2) For the pro dyno tuner who want NO self tuning abilities and use the tuner as a gateway into the ECM.  Or... a company that will license out vin numbers and cut the cost to tuners.

3) The SERIOUS 'home tuner', or small Indy shops,  who... not having an actual dyno... yet... needs ALL the software tools one can think of to help getting a good tune.  Or the dyno tuners who like the ability for the software to help out.  These are the guys on here that argue and share info on making the TMax and Mastertune work as best as possible.

Tuner MFGs are starting to stake out their ' territories' lately.

Now that more than one company uses the stock O2s for 'self tuning', I see that becoming one type of tuner for the JUST DO IT crowd, and the other should become the one for serious needs.  Really.... how MUCH added software is need to tune an AC and exhaust?  Conversely, it IS work to get a built bike running right.

Some of us members talk right past each other, because our needs are different.  I don't think ONE tuner can make everybody happy.  One problem that folks don't 'get' is we are talking Big Twin HArleys for the most part here.  NO comparison with anything developed later.  We are stuck with the basic engine design that is now almost 100 years old.   The uneven firing.  Watching fuel come OUT of the intake, and that it IS normal... etc... make the Big Twin an engine all its own.  ANd makes for a engine that is hard to tune.  Further, cars and truck use MAF instead of speed density for engine management.  One reason for that IS the design, itself, of the engine, and what we... harley owners, would SCREAM bout if the bikes looked really crappy to hang all the MAF hardware on a big twin.

It will be fun to watch this all develop.

I hope that TTS keeps updating XP and newer for awhile.  My laptops are serial XPs... newer ones.

[Admiral Akbar]

I think that post may have been directed towards me.    afterall, I am important in my own mind.   

Well that's fer sure... 

What do I want in a Tuner ?

One where I push a button and ride it for a while then it says it's tuned..

Next best would require pairs of runs on flat ground (one each way) at different TPs until the turners says, "Done"  Maybe puts a smiley face on a display..

Hey it is possible..  Wide band sensors get you close.. ECM does the fine stuff by measuring acceleration..

Max

[Mr. Wizard]

How about this for an idea. Simple idea but may be a code writers nightmare.

The questions I see that are most common to this game is... "Which starting calibration should I use" and I have XYZ cams so, "Which starting calibration should I use with my cams since they are not listed?".

Click "Load tuning File" and a screen pops up to pick a canned calibration or gives you the opportunity to enter all of your bikes info by means of a "Prebuild" or "Custom" button selection.

For "Custom", you choose the model, year, cubic inches and exhaust type. There would be a cam selector also to select stock cams or enter your cam's values such as valve opening/closing*, lift, duration and so forth.

The calibrations for different cams have several internal software changes we've been told. Why not design a way for a program to design a "customized" calibration file for you by using your entered cam values along with your other MY information that would be used to select your canned calibration file now?

It will not simply choose one of the files that are listed in the PDF but custom make you one according to your build by entering the special internal software changes for you. This would take all the guessing out of "Which starting calibration do I use".

Could this be done?


-wiz

[FLTRI]

How about this for an idea. Simple idea but may be a code writers nightmare.

The questions I see that are most common to this game is... "Which starting calibration should I use" and I have XYZ cams so, "Which starting calibration should I use with my cams since they are not listed?".

Click "Load tuning File" and a screen pops up to pick a canned calibration or gives you the opportunity to enter all of your bikes info by means of a "Prebuild" or "Custom" button selection.

For "Custom", you choose the model, year, cubic inches and exhaust type. There would be a cam selector also to select stock cams or enter your cam's values such as valve opening/closing*, lift, duration and so forth.

The calibrations for different cams have several internal software changes we've been told. Why not design a way for a program to design a "customized" calibration file for you by using your entered cam values along with your other MY information that would be used to select your canned calibration file now?

It will not simply choose one of the files that are listed in the PDF but custom make you one according to your build by entering the special internal software changes for you. This would take all the guessing out of "Which starting calibration do I use".

Could this be done?


-wiz

I think this is very possible and would far surpass a library of base/canned cals to pick from. (This is what I have done for the past 12 years and can say sometimes I will go through 5-10 tuned cals to find one close to begin with.

Basically it would create a "proper" base cal that would be designed with your build and exhaust specs in the formula to formulate the base cal.
Bob

[mayor]

as a laymen...I'm curious as to why there needs to be a calibration?  what are we calibrating? 

I asked this on this thread twice, can someone clue me in? 

[Heatwave3]

I think that post may have been directed towards me.    afterall, I am important in my own mind.   

Well that's fer sure... 

What do I want in a Tuner ?

One where I push a button and ride it for a while then it says it's tuned..

Next best would require pairs of runs on flat ground (one each way) at different TPs until the turners says, "Done"  Maybe puts a smiley face on a display..

Hey it is possible..  Wide band sensors get you close.. ECM does the fine stuff by measuring acceleration..

Max

You gotta like this thinking. I believe almost any bike owner would easily pay $500? to own such software that could determine if the engine is delivering max performance as defined by max power delivered for the available fuel. Maybe that's an algorithym of spark advance and VE, but whatever it is, the software just pops up a smiley face saying "congratulations...for this type of fuel at this altitude, your bike's engine is delivering max performance". Since we're just dreaming...why not?

[Steve Cole]

While were dreaming I want to know what I know now and have my 25 years old body back, can somebody write something to do that?

[Mr. Wizard]

While were dreaming I want to know what I know now and have my 25 years old body back, can somebody write something to do that?

Stem Cell Research coming soon to your local CVS!

[jluvs2ride]

as a laymen...I'm curious as to why there needs to be a calibration?  what are we calibrating? 

I asked this on this thread twice, can someone clue me in? 

The calibration in this context is a file with various tables of data for Air/Fuel Ratio, Timing, Volumetric Efficiency, and some others, as well as tuning constants such as CID, Injector type, etc.

What is being "calibrated" is the Engine Control Module.

[hotroadking]

While were dreaming I want to know what I know now and have my 25 years old body back, can somebody write something to do that?

Yes, but you are not going to like where they install the gas analyzer!

[mayor]

as a laymen...I'm curious as to why there needs to be a calibration?  what are we calibrating? 

I asked this on this thread twice, can someone clue me in? 

The calibration in this context is a file with various tables of data for Air/Fuel Ratio, Timing, Volumetric Efficiency, and some others, as well as tuning constants such as CID, Injector type, etc.

What is being "calibrated" is the Engine Control Module.

thanks J.  That was what I thought. 

[rbabos]

While were dreaming I want to know what I know now and have my 25 years old body back, can somebody write something to do that?

Viagra will get some of it back to a 25 year old. The rest, I can't help you with.
Ron

[Steve Cole]

That parts not broken yet, just the rest of it is falling apart. Might have something to do with hitting the water about 120 mph or trying to prove a human can fly through the air without wings but when a car gets in the way you stop and drop like a log!

[1FSTRK]

The first company that comes up with a way to quickly set the Delphi ecm for different cams will become the tuner of choice. They all spend time coming up with new ways to adjust the same things and no one is offering a better way to adjust the unaddressed areas. Where are all of the “think outside of the box” computer guys when you need them? Do to the approach they have taken we have four or five companies that would have to take actual bikes, cams, exhaust and physically test each and every combination to get it right. There is no way that even one of them will do that much testing so by design most of us will end up with a base cal that does not match our build. This approach is fine when tailoring the tuner to work with only one company's hard parts but is a liability when trying to tune on the vast numbers of combinations available to the pubic. Sometimes it’s better to fix a problem than to follow others around it.

[Steve Cole]

So do you tune anything or are you going to be taking your bike to a tuner to get it done? Setting up a calibration properly takes time, are you willing to spend the time to do it properly? Too many people ask for things, then once they get them are not smart enough or too lazy to use those functions. While I am not say this about anyone person directly that's just the way it is. When I talk with many of the so called tuners out there they do NOT spend the time to use even 1/2 of the functions that we already offer in Mastertune and DataMaster. So now who's fault is that? If  we make the tools to do the job for everyone is it also our responsibility to make calibrations for each and every possible engine combination?

Our job as the tool supplier is to provide the tools to do the job, and provide them in a way that is easy to use, that's it. Anything more is not about the tuning tool, it's about tuning the bike and isn't that what your paying a tuner to do? So what it boils down to is that most are looking to blame the tool instead of blaming themselves for NOT using what is already in the tool.

[1FSTRK]

I did not single out any brand but thank you for your reply.
It seems to me that either the base cam info matters or it does not.

If it does not then you only need one base map and all bikes can be tuned with the software as delivered.

If it does matter then you either make that part of the end tuning operation or provide it in the base library.

If you choose to provide the base library then you take on the responsibility to stock it.

If you choose to provide the base cals for 10 cams, that is your choice, but you limit your product to customers that run one of those cams and that should be made clear up front.

By providing base cals for any cams you openly admit that something in the base cal must be tuned to match each individual cam. You can not choose to tell people that don’t use one of your listed cams that this no longer matters, it is close enough just to sell them your product.

You can not say something is important in one paragraph and then recommend the product be used beyond those limits in the next. The customer that does not have a cam from the list does not have the same advantages from the product as the one running a listed cam.

[Jeffd]

I did not single out any brand but thank you for your reply.
It seems to me that either the base cam info matters or it does not.

If it does not then you only need one base map and all bikes can be tuned with the software as delivered.

If it does matter then you either make that part of the end tuning operation or provide it in the base library.

If you choose to provide the base library then you take on the responsibility to stock it.

If you choose to provide the base cals for 10 cams, that is your choice, but you limit your product to customers that run one of those cams and that should be made clear up front.

By providing base cals for any cams you openly admit that something in the base cal must be tuned to match each individual cam. You can not choose to tell people that don’t use one of your listed cams that this no longer matters, it is close enough just to sell them your product.

You can not say something is important in one paragraph and then recommend the product be used beyond those limits in the next. The customer that does not have a cam from the list does not have the same advantages from the product as the one running a listed cam.

I have read most of your posts and you are on some friggun self serving agenda trip.

[1FSTRK]

 

I have read most of your posts and you are on some friggun self serving agenda trip.

  Is that a personal attack

If you are running a listed cam then you are lucky. If you are not then this all serves you.
Just the facts

[Steve Cole]

So we provide the tools to do the job and it doesn't get done who's at fault? Surely you cannot believe that is is the tool suppliers responsibility. Since you seem to refuse to answer any of my previous questions one must assume you  have no idea what your talking about.

Just because a tool supplier gives away some base calibrations it does not mean that the tool is not able to tune any other combinations! Isn't that just what a tuner is to be paid for? Looks like your either here to just stir the pot or you want someone to come along and build your bike and tune your bike for you. In which case you should go to a shop that you pay to do that and if something goes wrong work with them to resolve it, but do NOT blame the tools for the problem.

[BVHOG]

Is it possible or is it not possible (or feasible)to add the function in to the software that would enable it to come up with a base map based on some user input? Cam timing etc.

[ultraswede]

Base maps for two different cams, there are I am sure, some differences between the two.
Are those differences also available to be changed/reached by the tuner who bought the tuning product?

[1FSTRK]

Steve you have already stated that there are things in the base cal that you change that we can’t even see. There is no need to even revisit that. I’m not blaming you for anything. I am just asking for the pieces that are missing from the tool kit I purchased.

If you don’t want to or can’t address the issue please don’t try to miss direct the focus.
This thread was started for customers to state what they want from a tuner. 

[Jeffd]

"So we provide the tools to do the job and it doesn't get done who's at fault? Surely you cannot believe that is is the tool suppliers responsibility. Since you seem to refuse to answer any of my previous questions one must assume you  have no idea what your talking about."

I bought a hammer and bucket of nails and some lumber and I am pissed because my shed is still not built LOL.

[FLTRI]

Here's what I believe 1FSTRK and a shitload of other owners are confused about.
While tuner mfg's offer tuned mapping for some various builds they are not in the "custom calibration" business. They are in the tool business to provide tools to tune bikes.

A few years ago there was someone who thought he could develop a mapping inventory from tuning bikes and shops he taught how to use SERT/SEST. He would travel from dealer/shop to dealer/shop teaching tuning and amassed a ton of cals over just a few years. He then put up a website to sell these maps.

Well, he's no longer around and has been sued numerous times by customers and shops who he convinced to buy his ride-ready calibrations and other tuning stuff.

He knew, but never told anyone, that since injector outputs alone vary widely from piece to piece, there is no way to know if a given calibration will be close enough to call "good enough".

For the above reason we do not offer/post calibrations as a general rule because as soon as we do, we've found we own the responsibility to help that person to get that calibration to work properly...in other words...try to tune over the phone so to speak. There is just too much variable stuff in a build and calibration to be able to offer and stand behind canned maps, even when the parts are alike..

Also, IMO TTS offers mapping that works for most all street builds. That is to say TTS offers starting mapping that can be tailored (tuned) to most builds. And if there is ever a mod need to a calibration to work properly, usually a quick call to
Steve Cole takes care of it by identifying the problem and correcting the issue sometimes before I can get back to the bike on the dyno!!!
Folks, customer service and expertise just doesn't get any better than that!!!

JME,
Bob

[Jeffd]

I have read most of your posts and you are on some friggun self serving agenda trip.

  Is that a personal attack

If you are running a listed cam then you are lucky. If you are not then this all serves you.
Just the facts

No personal attack but go back and read all your posts .  Heck I do not even have a tuner nor do I know how to use one but when and if I get one will be getting either a TTS or Power vision based on 99% of the satisfied type posts I read.  Based on another thread you started it sounds like you have quality tuners in your area to choose from.

[hotroadking]

It seems to me the logic of this product is to sell as many end user packages
as possible, users then are committed to the software as the gateway to the ECM and
get as many tuners in the country as possible proficient with the application
allowing significant physical coverage of the market in order to support the former.

In doing so, people will either

1) Load a map, ride and forget about it thinking it's done
2) Get involved with the software, ride, do VE runs only
3) Same as 3 but want a little more
4) Buy it and go to a tuner

All the above may eventually end up at a tuner for fine tuning
or to work out some issue such as bog, poor mileage, feeling less power,etc

Now it's JMO but to achieve these goals requires the software to
function in 3 ways.

1) Novice, Set and forget
2) Intermediate
3) Pro Tuner

Most people and again JMO are going to fit into 1 or 2 and significantly more
are going to read the manual, and wonder WTH they got themselves into
and end up at 3 or, they will load a map and ride off and never take advantage
of the applications benefits.

If the front end was a bit more user friendly in the manner in
which you apply the changes to fine tune the bike, because the
maps choices are limited, then you might find more people become
number 2's or mild self tuners. VE and that's it.

Again the more front end packages a tuning software gets
into the hands of end users, the more opportunity there
is for Pro Tuners to get more business. 

[1FSTRK]

I am not confused and there is a difference between the tune up and the base calibration. that was already stated in another thread on this forum.
       The mapping or tuning in the user adjustable part of the products is fine. It's the things that the companies build into the base calibrations that work with the parts on their test bikes that are different from our bikes that need to be addressed. I know it's a tough thing to do. If it was easy all the products would have it already. I'm just say that when that step in made things will be much better. I even hope your product is the one to do it, you already got my money for two tuners and you make you updates free.

[FLTRI]

I am not confused...It's the things that the companies build into the base calibrations that work with the parts on their test bikes that are different from our bikes that need to be addressed...
I know it's a tough thing to do. If it was easy all the products would have it already. I'm just say that when that step in made things will be much better.

From my previous post above:
"There is just too much variable stuff in a build and calibration to be able to offer and stand behind canned maps, even when the parts are alike.."
Would it be nice to have a library of perfect cals to choose from? Sure, but that is not reality for the aforementioned reasons.
Now if I were looking to buy a tuner I would check out what new product developments show up at the Cincinnati V-twin show.
You may be surprised!
Bob

[mayor]

Just because a tool supplier gives away some base calibrations it does not mean that the tool is not able to tune any other combinations! Isn't that just what a tuner is to be paid for?

this is the exact reason why I asked several times earlier in this thread about calibrations.  I'm still a little confused on what the big deal is, unless the big deal is the amount of time it takes to tune a big using a base map that is not close.     just curious (and this is a legitimate question)- even if the base map isn't close, can the end result still be the same (meaning a good tune created for a specific build)?  I don't know much yet about TTS, but I know that as long as I'm planning on tuning to a specific build/bike I don't get to hung up the base map for the T-max (I just make sure that bore/stroke and TB system are comparable on the base map  ). 

[1FSTRK]

I am not confused...It's the things that the companies build into the base calibrations that work with the parts on their test bikes that are different from our bikes that need to be addressed...
I know it's a tough thing to do. If it was easy all the products would have it already. I'm just say that when that step in made things will be much better.

From my previous post above:
"There is just too much variable stuff in a build and calibration to be able to offer and stand behind canned maps, even when the parts are alike.."Would it be nice to have a library of perfect cals to choose from? Sure, but that is not reality for the aforementioned reasons.
Now if I were looking to buy a tuner I would check out what new product developments show up at the Cincinnati V-twin show.
You may be surprised!
Bob

I do not wish to turn this into a pissin match but how can one make that statement then turn around and offer base maps in the software?
If its to complexed to be done how come they did it for SE cams?

Here is the link to some of the posts Steve made in the past.
http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,28890.50.html#lastPost
I understand they can't figure this out but htis thread is where I get to ask for what I want and that is one of the biggest things on the list right behind peace on earth an dgood will to men. Not saying I'll see either in my life time but somebody else asked the question.

[1FSTRK]

Just because a tool supplier gives away some base calibrations it does not mean that the tool is not able to tune any other combinations! Isn't that just what a tuner is to be paid for?

this is the exact reason why I asked several times earlier in this thread about calibrations.  I'm still a little confused on what the big deal is, unless the big deal is the amount of time it takes to tune a big using a base map that is not close.     just curious (and this is a legitimate question)- even if the base map isn't close, can the end result still be the same (meaning a good tune created for a specific build)?  I don't know much yet about TTS, but I know that as long as I'm planning on tuning to a specific build/bike I don't get to hung up the base map for the T-max (I just make sure that bore/stroke and TB system are comparable on the base map  ).

Mayor
If you follow the link in the above post     
You can see in Steve's own words that it will be a matter of finding the best wrong base cal if you are using a cam other that the one listed in the cal.

[rbabos]

Just because a tool supplier gives away some base calibrations it does not mean that the tool is not able to tune any other combinations! Isn't that just what a tuner is to be paid for?

this is the exact reason why I asked several times earlier in this thread about calibrations.  I'm still a little confused on what the big deal is, unless the big deal is the amount of time it takes to tune a big using a base map that is not close.     just curious (and this is a legitimate question)- even if the base map isn't close, can the end result still be the same (meaning a good tune created for a specific build)?  I don't know much yet about TTS, but I know that as long as I'm planning on tuning to a specific build/bike I don't get to hung up the base map for the T-max (I just make sure that bore/stroke and TB system are comparable on the base map  ).

Given enough time and experimenting, yes it can be done but there should be no reason for this. More calibrations closer to my build would have made my life a lot easier. This is where all the tuning experts jump in and tell me to learn to tune. News Flash. I bought the tts to tune my bike, not teach me to become a half assed expert on how all this stuff works. Good luck to anybody expecting to just run out and do a few vtune runs with a calibration that's only close to their build. Close might be fine on milder setups but don't cut it on some. This is where the work begins.
Ron

[BVHOG]

Here's what I believe 1FSTRK and a shitload of other owners are confused about.
While tuner mfg's offer tuned mapping for some various builds they are not in the "custom calibration" business. They are in the tool business to provide tools to tune bikes.

A few years ago there was someone who thought he could develop a mapping inventory from tuning bikes and shops he taught how to use SERT/SEST. He would travel from dealer/shop to dealer/shop teaching tuning and amassed a ton of cals over just a few years. He then put up a website to sell these maps.

Well, he's no longer around and has been sued numerous times by customers and shops who he convinced to buy his ride-ready calibrations and other tuning stuff.

He knew, but never told anyone, that since injector outputs alone vary widely from piece to piece, there is no way to know if a given calibration will be close enough to call "good enough".

For the above reason we do not offer/post calibrations as a general rule because as soon as we do, we've found we own the responsibility to help that person to get that calibration to work properly...in other words...try to tune over the phone so to speak. There is just too much variable stuff in a build and calibration to be able to offer and stand behind canned maps, even when the parts are alike..

Also, IMO TTS offers mapping that works for most all street builds.
JME,
Bob

Good post for the most part but I don't think anyone is asking for a cal that is perfect for every build recipe, just a good starting point based on a few user inputs.
Man, that guy that used to sell those maps must have laughed all the way to the bank, for a while anyway, as I recall he used to get 50 bucks a pop, pretty good for selling maps he made while getting paid to teach shops a piss poor method of block tuning. He must have "Gross"ly underestimated his customers knowledge.
Like brought up once again, why nothing in the library but SE builds? TTS had to have tuned a few Andrews cammed bikes after doing 200 a year.
Bob, you have stated you are doing hundreds of bikes, why not return the help to TTS and at least use some of your maps for base cals?

[mayor]

If you follow the link in the above post     

yea, I read that....I'm still confused.    maybe even more so now.    

OK, to give me and maybe some others more clarity....what all goes into the making of a base map calibration?  I would assume that timing maps are established (based on static compression, corrected compression, valve timing, projected fuel rates, etc) and projected fuel pulse rates per cell per rpm (based on bore/stroke, projected VE's, injectors, etc.)  ...am I close?     keep in mind, I'm a laymen...so my terminology may not be correct.   

[brunothedog]

I know of no tuner on the market that you can match a certain build to, PC, Sepst, etc.
the word "AUTOTUNE" fools the unknowledgeable into thinking that, i do my build, buy this product, and I am running my motor to its full potential,
I understand TTS in saying these Autotune devices are only a band-aid deal. How can a sensor in the exhaust compensate for cam timing, spark timing, etc..
I only know that their will never be a magic product that you can plug n play.

For a Professional tune, you gotta go to a professional, or become one

All these new products coming to the market IMO are just dressed up, and flashy, offering not much more than is out there.

[1FSTRK]

Mayor
The things we see in our tuning tables are the tune up and some but not all of the things being changed by the down load. The base cal contains that plus all the other thing that get changed in the ecm, like cam timing, injector timing and all being optimized for what the air is doing in the port and cylinder with a given combination

[1FSTRK]

I know of no tuner on the market that you can match a certain build to, PC, Sepst, etc.
the word "AUTOTUNE" fools the unknowledgeable into thinking that, i do my build, buy this product, and I am running my motor to its full potential,
I understand TTS in saying these Autotune devices are only a band-aid deal. How can a sensor in the exhaust compensate for cam timing, spark timing, etc..
I only know that their will never be a magic product that you can plug n play.

For a Professional tune, you gotta go to a professional, or become one

All these new products coming to the market IMO are just dressed up, and flashy, offering not much more than is out there.

That's not really what were talking about because your dyno tech is limited to by the "tool" that the manufacturer of the tuning device provides. The tech may want to try a different setting on something based on his testing but if no access is granted to those settings than your stuck with what you got.
We have a lot more than we did when efi first hit harleys and all they did was add a little box to add some pulse width for more fuel. Back then the story was the same we were told we did not need to adjust ignition timing, but we persisted and that was the first step to where we are now.
Each time we're told we don't understand it or need it until someone figures out how to do it and they are the hottest thing.

[Steve Cole]

Steve you have already stated that there are things in the base cal that you change that we can’t even see. There is no need to even revisit that. I’m not blaming you for anything. I am just asking for the pieces that are missing from the tool kit I purchased.

If you don’t want to or can’t address the issue please don’t try to miss direct the focus.
This thread was started for customers to state what they want from a tuner.

How is stating the truth a miss direct? The things that are already in DataMaster, Vtune and Mastertune today are not even being used! There is no other product BAR NONE on the market that has the features and let's the end user/tuner do the adjustments that we allow for. So when I talk to people to find out what they are using, it's funny to see you come here and ask for more and even demand that we make more base calibrations. We make a tool and it is the most powerful tool on the market for HD Delphi equipped bikes and if a few more tuners would start to learn how to use ALL the functions that are already there people would know it. There are several right here on this very forum that do not even understand how the HD system works but yet they are bitching about needing more, when the truth is they need to first learn how the system works then go back and learn how to use the tools that are out. While we are not one, to just to sit back and not do anything for the future, as a matter of fact our products are what most others are trying to copy, we will listen to what customers have to say and see if we can improve it.

We are not here to sell and develop calibrations we are here to make tools that allow the end user/tuner to make calibrations. Anything we can add into those tools to make the job quicker and precise we will.

For the record please stop trying to take my post out of the context they were made in to try and fit what you want.

You want to say that the Dyno Tech is limited to what we allow them to see and that is true, but, if the Tech does not learn how to use what is already there what makes you believe they will learn how to use things if we add them? There is no magic bullet, it takes time and effort to read and learn how to use things. Those that do will go forward those that don't will fall behind and bitch about it.

[BVHOG]

How is stating the truth a miss direct? The things that are already in DataMaster, Vtune and Mastertune today are not even being used! There is no other product BAR NONE on the market that has the features and let's the end user/tuner do the adjustments that we allow for. So when I talk to people to find out what they are using, it's funny to see you come here and ask for more and even demand that we make more base calibrations. We make a tool and it is the most powerful tool on the market for HD Delphi equipped bikes and if a few more tuners would start to learn how to use ALL the functions that are already there people would know it. There are several right here on this very forum that do not even understand how the HD system works but yet they are bitching about needing more, when the truth is they need to first learn how the system works then go back and learn how to use the tools that are out. While we are not one, to just to sit back and not do anything for the future, as a matter of fact our products are what most others are trying to copy, we will listen to what customers have to say and see if we can improve it.

We are not here to sell and develop calibrations we are here to make tools that allow the end user/tuner to make calibrations. Anything we can add into those tools to make the job quicker and precise we will.

For the record please stop trying to take my post out of the context they were made in to try and fit what you want.

You want to say that the Dyno Tech is limited to what we allow them to see and that is true, but, if the Tech does not learn how to use what is already there what makes you believe they will learn how to use things if we add them? There is no magic bullet, it takes time and effort to read and learn how to use things. Those that do will go forward those that don't will fall behind and bitch about it.

So why have any different cals at all, just one for the softail/dyna's, one for the baggers etc.
The starting cals are a big part of what you are selling and people are looking to purchase, for you to say otherwise is just not logical in any way shape or form.
You have a great ecm access product, how tough would it be to add cals from a few of the 200 bikes you tune every year
As for the others copying you, I would read that to mean the SEST is copying you by having basically the same starting cals as you do with all the SE builds. That would be a tough pill to swallow for me to believe that one. I do think that they have tried to copy your V-tune system though, maybe that makes you even.
I don't think there are any tables in your software that are that hard to understand and incorporate into a tune when needed if the tuner chooses to do so.
The new dynojet system already has a feature you do not have, the ability to read and edit the existing map in the bike and they have already spent time developing cals with parts other than the available SE stuff. They are a multi million dollar company with the means to do anything that is necessary to make this new system the best on the block and if you don't continue to offer the things they do you will be the one falling behind and doing the bitching (your words)

[FLTRI]

I know of no tuner on the market that you can match a certain build to, PC, Sepst, etc.
the word "AUTOTUNE" fools the unknowledgeable into thinking that, i do my build, buy this product, and I am running my motor to its full potential,
I understand TTS in saying these Autotune devices are only a band-aid deal. How can a sensor in the exhaust compensate for cam timing, spark timing, etc..
I only know that their will never be a magic product that you can plug n play.

For a Professional tune, you gotta go to a professional, or become one

All these new products coming to the market IMO are just dressed up, and flashy, offering not much more than is out there.

Very well stated!
Bob

[1FSTRK]

Steve you have already stated that there are things in the base cal that you change that we can’t even see. There is no need to even revisit that. I’m not blaming you for anything. I am just asking for the pieces that are missing from the tool kit I purchased.

If you don’t want to or can’t address the issue please don’t try to miss direct the focus.
This thread was started for customers to state what they want from a tuner.

How is stating the truth a miss direct? The things that are already in DataMaster, Vtune and Mastertune today are not even being used! There is no other product BAR NONE on the market that has the features and let's the end user/tuner do the adjustments that we allow for. So when I talk to people to find out what they are using, it's funny to see you come here and ask for more and even demand that we make more base calibrations. We make a tool and it is the most powerful tool on the market for HD Delphi equipped bikes and if a few more tuners would start to learn how to use ALL the functions that are already there people would know it. There are several right here on this very forum that do not even understand how the HD system works but yet they are bitching about needing more, when the truth is they need to first learn how the system works then go back and learn how to use the tools that are out. While we are not one, to just to sit back and not do anything for the future, as a matter of fact our products are what most others are trying to copy, we will listen to what customers have to say and see if we can improve it.

We are not here to sell and develop calibrations we are here to make tools that allow the end user/tuner to make calibrations. Anything we can add into those tools to make the job quicker and precise we will.

For the record please stop trying to take my post out of the context they were made in to try and fit what you want.

You want to say that the Dyno Tech is limited to what we allow them to see and that is true, but, if the Tech does not learn how to use what is already there what makes you believe they will learn how to use things if we add them? There is no magic bullet, it takes time and effort to read and learn how to use things. Those that do will go forward those that don't will fall behind and bitch about it.

OK I think I got it.

My product is the greatest who are you to question me
People won't use it if I waste my time figuring it out
Don't use my own word against me
Dyno techs are stupid that's why I invented Vtune

[FLTRI]

...how can one make that statement then turn around and offer base maps in the software?
If its to complex to be done how come they did it for SE cams?

Since each SE maps were for a VERY SPECIFIC BUILD FORMULA including everything from the A/C through to and including the muffler(s) Those SE builds are the exact same as used for cal development. NO deviation to the build part numbers...NONE! Albeit there are differences in the injector output, etc. at least all the part numbers are the same.

I'm sure Steve could come up with other cals he's developed over the years for other-than-SE builds, but then he would become liable for their usability and accuracy, even when the customer's bike has different exhaust/cam/intake parts. etc exist but, in the customer's eyes "look close enough".

The more tuning experience the more it is realized each engine and accessories has its own personalities and idiosyncrasies which need individual tuning care and feeding.
Bob
PS - Nothing wrong with asking for what you want, just be ready for truthful reasoning why it doesn't exist... at least yet.

[hrdtail78]

As anybody used the vision besides Jamie?  Last I checked there are no cals out at all. And the autotune is still in development. I am sure it will come out and it will be everything advertised. But until it does how can anybody factor it into the comparison of what is out now and what people have used?

[1FSTRK]

...how can one make that statement then turn around and offer base maps in the software?
If its to complex to be done how come they did it for SE cams?

Since each SE maps were for a VERY SPECIFIC BUILD FORMULA including everything from the A/C through to and including the muffler(s) Those SE builds are the exact same as used for cal development. NO deviation to the build part numbers...NONE! Albeit there are differences in the injector output, etc. at least all the part numbers are the same.

I'm sure Steve could come up with other cals he's developed over the years for other-than-SE builds, but then he would become liable for their usability and accuracy, even when the customer's bike has different exhaust/cam/intake parts. etc exist but, in the customer's eyes "look close enough".

The more tuning experience the more it is realized each engine and accessories has its own personalities and idiosyncrasies which need individual tuning care and feeding.
Bob
PS - Nothing wrong with asking for what you want, just be ready for truthful reasoning why it doesn't exist... at least yet.

Thank you
If I had recieved a straight answer in the begining this could have been over in one post.
I believe that posting my wish on the wish list was within reason. And I see his problems but that does not change the fact that a different way of doing this would be better for the customer in the end. I did not claim to have all the answers nor did I demand anything from anyone.
I posted a idea that I felt would bring about an improvement for us all

[Steve Cole]

Steve you have already stated that there are things in the base cal that you change that we can’t even see. There is no need to even revisit that. I’m not blaming you for anything. I am just asking for the pieces that are missing from the tool kit I purchased.

If you don’t want to or can’t address the issue please don’t try to miss direct the focus.
This thread was started for customers to state what they want from a tuner.

How is stating the truth a miss direct? The things that are already in DataMaster, Vtune and Mastertune today are not even being used! There is no other product BAR NONE on the market that has the features and let's the end user/tuner do the adjustments that we allow for. So when I talk to people to find out what they are using, it's funny to see you come here and ask for more and even demand that we make more base calibrations. We make a tool and it is the most powerful tool on the market for HD Delphi equipped bikes and if a few more tuners would start to learn how to use ALL the functions that are already there people would know it. There are several right here on this very forum that do not even understand how the HD system works but yet they are bitching about needing more, when the truth is they need to first learn how the system works then go back and learn how to use the tools that are out. While we are not one, to just to sit back and not do anything for the future, as a matter of fact our products are what most others are trying to copy, we will listen to what customers have to say and see if we can improve it.

We are not here to sell and develop calibrations we are here to make tools that allow the end user/tuner to make calibrations. Anything we can add into those tools to make the job quicker and precise we will.

For the record please stop trying to take my post out of the context they were made in to try and fit what you want.

You want to say that the Dyno Tech is limited to what we allow them to see and that is true, but, if the Tech does not learn how to use what is already there what makes you believe they will learn how to use things if we add them? There is no magic bullet, it takes time and effort to read and learn how to use things. Those that do will go forward those that don't will fall behind and bitch about it.

OK I think I got it.

My product is the greatest who are you to question me
People won't use it if I waste my time figuring it out
Don't use my own word against me
Dyno techs are stupid that's why I invented Vtune

Our product has been out for several years now and it works as advertised and it's as simple as that.  I and many others, especially tuners agree it's the best out there.

I up graded my 04 to a 05 ecm installed the o2 sensors and Vtuned best money I've spent 
Reading and understanding the VTune directions was the hardest part once I started the tuning it was very simple procedure

People are not using what we have already given them just another fact.  From the reports back to TTS concerning amount of the software that is normally used by most buyers and some who claim they are tuners. I know this because I'm also one of the tech's receiving and answering phone calls each day with questions indicating users are not even aware of the tool's capability.

Don't take my words out of the context they were used in to fit you own agenda, is that so hard?


Some Dyno techs are not up to speed and are not willing to invest the time and effort to get there, just another fact.
So for those that are not willing to learn and understand what's there now how is adding more, going to help any, as what makes anyone think there are going to learn and understand those new features any better than the ones they do not now.

We developed V-tune for several  reasons
1)  The ECM on the bike is what is going to make decisions and run the engine reguardless of what you or I want. So let's let it make the decisions so that its happy. Once we know what it wants we can trim it to what we want and to tell you the truth it can make the calculations much better than a human can. Once this is done th eeCM is happy to do what the tuner wants it to do.

2)  So the owners who can't get to an experienced, qualified tuner could get their bike to run well themselves if they spent the time to learn how.

3) With the new baggers they could not be tuned with a sniffer or without welding/adapting 18mm sensors due to the cat.



BVHog

So how many DynoJet PV systems have you used so far? Since we all know the answer is ZERO how can you make claims at all as to what it does or does not do? How about we wait until its out and proven itself before we start to compare things. As far as your comment about us coping the SESPT I think you got that backwards. Our product was out long before the SESPT (by about 7 years) and we wrote all the calibrations that were included with the SERT, so why is it so hard for you to understand that we just might know what we wanted to change in them and include the new versions of Mastertune.

This isn't about adding features or making base calibrations. This is about a few who have not done, nor are willing to do the work involved to tune the various combinations that come along. It sure is funny that when talking with most tuners across the world they are very happy with what we've done so far, they have no issues that they cannot adjust for with the current product and we work closely with them about future improvements.

[1FSTRK]

You make a good product but you’d make a better ex-wife. You are relentless

[FLTRI]

You make a good product but you’d make a better ex-wife. You are relentless

A great attribute for product development!!! Maybe not so much for a date, but I have to admit I only want the cold hard facts not a kiss and hug to make me feel better.
Bob

[mayor]

You make a good product but you’d make a better ex-wife. You are relentless

eventhough I try to be as neutral as I can be during these banters..... I have to admit....that was a funny jab right there.   



now back to your regularly scheduled program....just keep it civil and respectful guys. 

[BVHOG]

BVHog

So how many DynoJet PV systems have you used so far? Since we all know the answer is ZERO how can you make claims at all as to what it does or does not do? How about we wait until its out and proven itself before we start to compare things. As far as your comment about us coping the SESPT I think you got that backwards. Our product was out long before the SESPT (by about 7 years) and we wrote all the calibrations that were included with the SERT, so why is it so hard for you to understand that we just might know what we wanted to change in them and include the new versions of Mastertune.

This isn't about adding features or making base calibrations. This is about a few who have not done, nor are willing to do the work involved to tune the various combinations that come along. It sure is funny that when talking with most tuners across the world they are very happy with what we've done so far, they have no issues that they cannot adjust for with the current product and we work closely with them about future improvements.

First off, I have no problem with your product, the ecm access part of it works exactly as advertised, the V-tune part of it, well, I'm sorry if I don't see the point in doing 80% of a complete job and having to finish up with a different system, might as well do it all with the latter.
The problem I have is the way you constantly use the method of trying to discredit anyone that questions you, about anything and the unrealistic claims you make about others methods if they don't follow yours 100%.  Since when has the TTS mastertune been around for 7 years? Totally untrue,(yeah I know about the MT in front of the cal no) you may have been working with the moco in development of the SERT (owned by the moco)system but we both know the truth about who did most of the development work on that and how that relationship ended.
As for this original discussion, it is exactly about added features, "what do we want in a tuner"  is the thread titile.
Rest assured the Powervision will do exactly as reported. I have that from a VERY reliable source.   The ability to retrieve and edit the existing cal is a VERY big deal to anyone who buys a used bike and may not know what has been done to it in the past.  Is there a reason you don't offer it or are there issues involved with offering it?  I think everyone would like that as an addition to your system.  Another addition would be the ability to marry a replacement tssm, or access the antilock brake system.
You still have not given one viable answer as to why you have not offered cals for the various cam manufacturers  builds that you have dyno'd in the last seven years, doubtful they have all been SE builds and only leaves one to draw a single conclusion.  In dealing with all these full time professional dyno shops have you not been offered the opportunity to add some varying build calibrations?
FWIW, I have never had an issue(other than a upload that hung but went the next time) with your ecm access product and it is easy to understand, works fast and does what it claims to do.

[1FSTRK]

The first company that comes up with a way to quickly set the Delphi ecm for different cams will become the tuner of choice. They all spend time coming up with new ways to adjust the same things and no one is offering a better way to adjust the unaddressed areas. Where are all of the “think outside of the box” computer guys when you need them? Do to the approach they have taken we have four or five companies that would have to take actual bikes, cams, exhaust and physically test each and every combination to get it right. There is no way that even one of them will do that much testing so by design most of us will end up with a base cal that does not match our build. This approach is fine when tailoring the tuner to work with only one company's hard parts but is a liability when trying to tune on the vast numbers of combinations available to the pubic. Sometimes it’s better to fix a problem than to follow others around it.

Just a reminder of how this all started

[ultraswede]

So I ask my simple question again;
Base TTS calibrations for two different cams, there are I am sure, some differences between the two.

Are all those differences also available to be changed/reached by the tuner who bought the TTS product?

[Steve Cole]

BVHog

First off, I have no problem with your product, the ecm access part of it works exactly as advertised, the V-tune part of it, well, I'm sorry if I don't see the point in doing 80% of a complete job and having to finish up with a different system, might as well do it all with the latter.
The problem I have is the way you constantly use the method of trying to discredit anyone that questions you, about anything and the unrealistic claims you make about others methods if they don't follow yours 100%. 


Since when has the TTS mastertune been around for 7 years? Totally untrue,(yeah I know about the MT in front of the cal no) you may have been working with the moco in development of the SERT (owned by the moco)system but we both know the truth about who did most of the development work on that and how that relationship ended.

The above statement tells how little you truely know or remember as I've corrected you on this several times in the past. So you are either just dumb or you are making false claims for your own little agenda.

Mastertune was a private label deal between TTS and Moco, it been around much longer than 7 years. They did not develop the SERT and they NEVER owned it. All anyone has to do is to open the software included with the SERT and look under "Help" and "About" and you will find our name right there as the owner of the product. Why now if Moco developed and owned the SERT would our name be there as the owner of it?


Ultraswede

Not everything in the control of TTS is in the product for a tuner in the field to change. Just look back and read the posts here in this very thread and see how well some listen to what is being said and you will know why. Most of what we release for items to be changed are based on the need for it and also if we see that people will use the necessary test equipment and spend the time it takes to use it properly, Many so called tuners will not buy the necessary test equipment and or spend the time to be able to do many of the things that we do in house. Now this is not to say that some would do it, but, we have to be careful, or others will have things so screwed up that people will be led to believe its a problem with the product as too many want to blame the tool instead of there own lack of ability to work through the various issues.

At this point in time when talking with real tuners world wide they are very happy with the product as it is and they seem to have no problems tuning from mild to wild builds with it. That's not said to let you think we are not working on other new things to add or change in the product because we believe as soon as we stop listening to our customer base someone else will.

Its kind of like the Broad Band issue. We could of release calibrations to allow a customer to use them but what good would that have been since we already knew the issues with them. Are we suppose to tell you guys about what we can do or what we know to be safe to do over the long haul? How about Real Time Tuning, we can do that too but it's going to cost more for the extra equipment needed and do you really need it? By real time tuning I mean change the tuning real time as the motor runs. The only time it helps any is when you are on a load control dyno so you can see what is happening right as you change it. This means the dyno must measure the total torque output real time. How many people have that equipment, not any of the so called tuners that are bitching about needing it and I'm willing to bet 99% of the true tuners do not have the necessary equipment as well. So what's the point for us to design and build it if no one is capable of using it or going to buy it?

How many times on this forum do you see people saying that they want to spend more money on a tuner? How many times do you see anyone not being able to tune a combination with what we already provide? Yes, some people have issues and some are harder than others but that is the way it will always be. How many of these so called tuners do you see offer up the tuneups they have done for everyone to use for free? We have a website that allows them to be put up on yet over the last three years we have received less than 10 and most of those were from bike owners. So what it tells me is they just like to come here and 

[hrdtail78]

I'm curious from both the pros here as well as home brew folks who have experience tuning using existing software/hardware (please no screwdriver tuning devices), what features you feel is desireable or even necessary to ease and simplify tuning procedures.

So, after you see the different tuning devices and what the do and how the work and look, how 'bout some suggestions as if someone were writing a tuning system from scratch.

The likes and dislikes of the existing tuning systems would be interesting as well.

I thought this started this discussing??

Who knows....may someone will be listening...?
Bob

Yeah, Steve listens, and gives feedback.  I got to wonder where Dyno jet is in this conversation.  Or the moco, Wiseco, Daytona, DFO, Tmax, Cobra, S&S, Terry's, rev perfomance,......you get what I'm saying.  Not one other manufacture's input or any sign of listening.

[strokerjlk]

OK I think I got it.

My product is the greatest who are you to question me
People won't use it if I waste my time figuring it out
Don't use my own word against me
Dyno techs are stupid that's why I invented Vtune

I know it is only Jan. but best post of the year..ROTFLMAO 

PS - Nothing wrong with asking for what you want, just be ready for truthful reasoning why it doesn't exist... at least yet. 

Now if I were looking to buy a tuner I would check out what new product developments show up at the Cincinnati V-twin show.
You may be surprised! 

You have been making little comments like this ever since the PC vision came about......hope it really lives up to your hype

[ultraswede]

Not everything in the control of TTS is in the product for a tuner in the field to change.

As I read your statement above, as an answer to my previous question;
No matter how skilled a tuners is, he cant reach the same results with a cam that has no close base Cal available,
as he would if there was a base Calibration available for his particular cam from you/TTS?

[FLTRI]

You have been making little comments like this ever since the PC vision came about......hope it really lives up to your hype

Since I am an independent contract tuner and teacher, I am always looking for new innovative ideas and features.
Also I never said anything about a given mfg as related to the v-twin expo.

Just I know there are a few mfgs working on new things and my advice is to wait and see what the show produces.
Hopefully Dynojet will have a working product for sale at the show...with the auto-tune feature of course.

It may just be what the market demands: something that can installed and it tunes the bike for the owner albeit nothing but fueling get auto-tuned, so the owner needs to be aware there is still work to be done by a qualified tuner to assure the most from the builds, bone stock and stage 1 bikes excluded, but they don't need much anyway.
Bob
PS - I believe the Vision will definitely be one of the 2 auto-tune systems to directly compete with T-max and should be superior since they are Speed Density rather than alpha-n strategy.

[brunothedog]

PS - I believe the Vision will definitely be one of the 2 auto-tune systems to directly compete with T-max and should be superior since they are Speed Density rather than alpha-n strategy.

I am not a tech, so can you explain a little whats the difference between the two and why one is better?

[FLTRI]

With Speed/Density EFI the ECU monitors engine RPM, intake manifold pressure (or vacuum), and intake charge air temperature.  Based on these numbers, along with a user-defined engine displacement figure, the ECU calculates the volume of air coming into the motor at any given time.  The ECU then calculates the appropriate amount of fuel needed to operate at the air/fuel ratio specified in a target air/fuel ratio table.  Because all this continually happens "on the fly", Speed/Density mode provides the highest degree of tunability over varying weather conditions, altitudes, and engine loads.

With Alpha-N mode the manner of operation is much simpler.  An injector pulsewidth is simply looked up from a throttle position vs. engine RPM lookup table.  The intake air temperature sensor and the MAP sensor are used to measure ambient air temperature and pressure.  There is a user-definable correction curve for adding or removing fuel based on air temperature, and a generic barometric compensation curve is applied internally.

With most applications,  Speed/Density mode will provide the best overall performance.  Neither mode will produce more power than the other, but Speed/Density will allow for much better drivability tuning than Alpha-N.
HTH,
Bob

[1FSTRK]

I just did a google search on the Cincinnati dealer show and it looks like we will know in two weeks just who has been listening to us here. I for one hope to be spending some more time on tuning this spring.

[WVULTRA]

I just did a google search on the Cincinnati dealer show and it looks like we will know in two weeks just who has been listening to us here. I for one hope to be spending some more time on tuning this spring.

Definitely going to be a great show of vendors!

http://www.vtwin-expo.com/exhibitor/exhlist.asp

[wurk_truk]

I just did a google search on the Cincinnati dealer show and it looks like we will know in two weeks just who has been listening to us here. I for one hope to be spending some more time on tuning this spring.

God...  I drank the cool aide and am becoming a Steve Cole groupie!  Holy Crap!

But... when I walked away from the show... the company that listened to MY personal incessant bitching was TTS.  The cam tool IS the step above the rest. 

AND... since one doesn't need v-tuning in any way and can still use this tool...  Where is the downside of that?  V-Tuning has been the 'bitch' with the guys with dynos (and the open-vs-closed loop thing).  Well?  Tell me what other product allows us to dial in cam and injector timing for ANY cam? And be able to start off with a decent base map?

I bought Mastertune from Doc, before there was even a factory manual... just Doc's version of how to tune.  Version 1.0.  TTS has pushed Matertune further and farther than the other MFGs have their own products, right?  Since I can NOW tune a 54 cam....(or most any cam at all),  I am ALMOST quite happy with the product.

I am going to try to use all the new tools this spring for shits and giggles.  I WILL report the good bad and the ugly..... as applied to a dumb assed DIY kinda guy.

It was really nice to see SOMEONE answer my call on the base cals.....

I'm also considering going back to closed loop, too.  AT least give it a complete new tryout.  And... until I test it all out... this is pure speculation on my part.  But?  Based upon my previous experience with MT... I bet it will work as stated.

So... back to original question for this thread and comparing it to what is available today:  I think I will personally give Brian's one size fits all tuner a 'pass'.  It looks like Zippers has upgraded quite a bit for DBW, and I think that is a good product, but I WANT to stay with Speed Density.  I'm thinking that... once released... the Vision will be a really nice product, but lacking the 'tools' the Mastertune gives.

Goes back to my earlier post...  the market IS fracturing right now and the 'tools' we can get are aligning different aspects of the marketplace.  Us forum members, and folks like us, (speed demons) are such a small minority of the complete HD customer base.  Then... the percentage that do Stage 1s make us an even smaller niche.  For a Stage 1 guys?  I got a feeling DJ is going to 'clean-up' on that end of things, (I feel Jamie has  a good lock on that market with his pipes, etc and the Vision fits HIS Vision...) but for the folks that really want to TUNE a bike (be it DIY OR Dyno), the Mastertune will win out because of its available choices and complexity.  In todays world, as it relates to HD bikes... every indy or MOCO shop simply NEEDS the ability to come up with some kind of 'tune'.  End of story.  The indy shops that did PCs will go Vision, HD will give a DL, and the better shops should do a fairly inclusive V-Tune on any build going out the door... how else would one protect all the mechanical parts installed without a tune that is safe and matches the bike?  All I needed to see was the blued wrist pins Ron Dickey had laying around to convince ME how important a 'tune' really is.  A shop with a good dyno AND operator is whats happening...!!!

To me... putting into my own personal world... (I tune electric motors for a living... not only telling those motors how fast to spin in EVERY instance, but using on board torque sensors... how much pressure can be applied to the shafts and what RPM to spin them to with the various pressures and drags, using servo motors to apply more or less shaft pressures.) it will be the difference in using a multi meter or a megger for troubleshooting work on machinery.  Megger wins every time for those weird motor problems.  MT wins over the other tuners for me, right now, for the same reasons...

Since we have MT8s now... how about getting MT to be able to marry TSSMs and bleed brakes, Steve?

[mayor]

AND... since one doesn't need v-tuning in any way and can still use this tool...  Where is the downside of that?  V-Tuning has been the 'bitch' with the guys with dynos (and the open-vs-closed loop thing).  Well? 

that's a question I've been struggling with for a long time.  I understand the notion that some amount of open loop tuning is required to get a precise tune when using v-tune, but there's plenty of fellows wishing for as precise of tune as even "V-tune only" gives in early delphi bikes  (before the factory used o2 sensors).  I know the argument is generally about precise tunes, but there's a huge amount of bikes running open loop downloads without major problems....and we all know that those bikes do not have precise tunes.  I think having some closed loop data available for self tuning, is much better than having no data at all (like with piggy back tuning modules or factory downloads on the open loop only systems).   

[Dennis The Menace]

Yepp, agreed wurk.  Different products for different markets.  Customer wants, needs and desires are different, just as the products are different.  They accomplish the same thing, however, they tune a bike.  Granted, to various levels of perfection, but at the end of the day, they all tune the bike.  Good to see them evolving like TTS with the cam adjustments.  It will open up new areas to tune.

[wurk_truk]

For a DIY... v-tune is basically a necessity. There HAS to be a way to gather the data needed to adjust the VEs, etc.

For Dyno guys... THEY can use the cam tool in Datamaster and tune like normal.  Two guys asked me if they NEED to run v-tune to make the cam tool adjust a base tune... nope.  Just Datamaster.  Mayor... when I get a break...  I want to talk to you and let you ask all the questions you want.  Surely...  I can answer 50% of them and let you gain a somewhat better understanding.

[hrdtail78]

How to bleed brakes w/ a TTS.  Don't plug it in and leave bike off. Get a mightyvac and bleed normal.  People need to read the procedure for using the digital tech and bleeding brake. Only thing it does is turns off the ABS.

Sorry for the side track.

[mayor]

I appreciate the offer wurk, I want to play around a little more before I take you up on that though.  Right now I don't know for sure what I don't know, so I want to figure that out first.    ok, that might be a little tricky.     I talked to hrdtail a few days ago, and I think I have a pretty good idea on where to start with my new 48 cams (with help from Herko as well).  It's pretty cold where I'm at, so there's no real significant amount of riding in the near future.  I might load up my modified cal today, and make sure it's starts up fine.  If the wife lets me play outside later this after noon I might even try to get some low rpm v-tune data.   

I do have one question though- sounds like the Datamaster program will be seeing some changes.  I was going to print out the 129 page datamaster manual today, should I just wait until the new version comes out?  It's not riding season for me right now, so I'm in no hurry. 

[Tsani]

Why not just do the question and answers here online? Let everyone learn.

[FLTRI]

Why not just do the question and answers here online? Let everyone learn.

That's how everyone benefits, even TTS!!
Bob

[wurk_truk]

Thanks Hrdtail.

I WILL start a thread so that everyone can chime in and learn.  And..... at the same time... we can ALL learn some of the new stuff that's in MT, like how the programming uses data and extrapolates into the 90-100kpa.  I will do a back up check on those #s with the TS and WEGO.

C'MON SPRING!!!!!

Mayor... wait a bit and once the new stuff comes out we will have YOUR copy to refer to.

[Tsani]

 

[hrdtail78]

A feature I would like to see:

While recording scan data I would like to hit a buttom on the keyboard that would mark a spot on the data.  Either in time or rec#.  A window would pop up and allow me to write in a note.

Now I am blibbing throttle 3 times and writting down notes.  If I send scan data to someone to look over, it might be hard to read my version of short hand.  But they could read the notes in the scan data.

I know I was asked what I wanted to see the otherday.  I completly forgot about this.  I asked for a football when I wanted a BB gun. 

[mayor]

when I posted earlier on this thread, I hadn't a clue on what I would like to see in a tuner.  I'm still green, but now I can think of at least two things I would like to see in a tuning system:

1. capable of reading o2 sensor data out to 100 kPa

2. a selectable pop up gauge option that allows easier viewing of critical items like MAP when recording scan data runs.

[hrdtail78]

You can't read the MAP that is on the Vtune data screen?  It's about twice the size of the blocks your filling.

[wurk_truk]

You can't read the MAP that is on the Vtune data screen?  It's about twice the size of the blocks your filling.

Going down the road its all one can do to hit the data points.... while viewing on a 7" monitor.  One cannot read the MAP under these conditions.

[mayor]

You can't read the MAP that is on the Vtune data screen?  It's about twice the size of the blocks your filling.

yes I can see it plenty good then, but like truk said you can't see that screen when you are data recording.    I thought maybe I could pull that screen up, just to see that...but no cigar.    I can tell you, the font is pretty small on the data recording screen when your trucking down the road. It gets kind of tricky to see what map you are at at a given time.  It's just a good thing for me that I don't exceed safe speeds while tuning. 

[wurk_truk]

You can't read the MAP that is on the Vtune data screen?  It's about twice the size of the blocks your filling.

yes I can see it plenty good then, but like truk said you can't see that screen when you are data recording.    I thought maybe I could pull that screen up, just to see that...but no cigar.    I can tell you, the font is pretty small on the data recording screen when your trucking down the road. It gets kind of tricky to see what map you are at at a given time.  It's just a good thing for me that I don't exceed safe speeds while tuning. 

Go far enough south on 220 or 219, and tell me about 'safe' road speeds.  I love that our hillbilly cousins make guardrails optional.

[mayor]

I live right off of 220, and some of my runs were recorded on that road.  Except for the ones that were clearly violating traffic laws, those were recorded on a closed course.   

[HogMike]

I live right off of 220, and some of my runs were recorded on that road.  Except for the ones that were clearly violating traffic laws, those were recorded on a closed course.   

We have quite a few of those here!