What do we want in a Tuner ?

[FLTRI]

I'm curious from both the pros here as well as home brew folks who have experience tuning using existing software/hardware (please no screwdriver tuning devices), what features you feel is desireable or even necessary to ease and simplify tuning procedures.

So, after you see the different tuning devices and what the do and how the work and look, how 'bout some suggestions as if someone were writing a tuning system from scratch.

The likes and dislikes of the existing tuning systems would be interesting as well.

Who knows....may someone will be listening...?
Bob

[1FSTRK]

FLTRI
I started writing this exact post this morning. I was struggling with the wording but I think you said it just fine. I'll be back with my list.
Great start for a thread

[FLTRI]

Only good can come from this IMO.
Bob

[Lama]

Being uneducated to the world of ECM tuning, but having spent wayyy too much free time TTS tuning my bike, (which I feel the TTS system is excellent). I am going to make my wish list based off of the TTS method of V-Tuning:

1) Having a theoretical camshaft profile estimator, or calculator, for the user to load as the initial basis of a canned starter map. Of course, having an exhaust and intake estimator would be nice also.

2) The ability for the program to "self blend" the ENTIRE VE chart, based off of some sort algorithm that computes what the best VE's *could* be for these un-tuned or unsampled ranges, using known captured data from cells in nearby VE ranges as the estimator.

3) The ability for the system to adjust timing in real-time during the entire tuning process, to allow the VE's and timing to work in harmony to obtain the best tune, quickly.

4) The ability of the system to allow for an external trigger or control head to be fitted to the bike that would allow for multiple tunes to be stored and accessed "on the fly", such as an "economy" tune, a "daily driver" tune and a "sport or performance" tune.


5) The ability to do ABS brake bleeding resets.

6) A "warrant" ghost reset trigger to allow the ECM to be flashed with the stock ECM MAP ID code without actually reloading the stock ECM flash.




My $.02

[FLTRI]

GUYS! This thread is NOT about an existing products or future unreleased products.

Please start another thread for sales pitches and development updates...if the mods will tolerate it.

This is all about what users/tuners, etc want to see in a tuning product.

Thank you LAMA for your input.....wait til the V-twin show in February to decide which product will meet your expectations and needs...I think you will be surprised.

As far as using this thread to bitch about what has not been provided, please use another thread or start your own thread for this.

Again the intent of this thread is to hear from users and tuners to list (as LAMA did) desires for tuning systems.

Thanks,
Bob

[mayor]

now back to our regularly scheduled program...

I'm curious from both the pros here as well as home brew folks who have experience tuning using existing software/hardware (please no screwdriver tuning devices), what features you feel is desireable or even necessary to ease and simplify tuning procedures.

as a laymen...I'm curious as to why there needs to be a calibration?  what are we calibrating?  I might be over simplifying things, but aren't we just talking about afr and timing controls? 

why can we just type in the afr values we want for various loads, and then some fancy algorithm software figure out how to make it happen on the fly?

why can't there be a pop-up window in the "all-in-one" software to give info on when the spark retard needed to be employed?  why can't the software have algorithm's to self adjust timing...afterall, there's already triggers in place to sense spark knock. 

[Sam45]

Posted by: FLTRI
Thank you LAMA for your input.....wait til the V-twin show in February to decide which product will meet your expectations and needs...I think you will be surprised.



So is that a hint of something else coming down the road?   

[FSG]

I find the Tit for Tat bickering offensive, especially considering the professionals (!) it's coming from, can go and stay elsewhere.

[HogBag]

edited by Coyote : Off topic belongs in Earl's place.

[BigD]

As a home tuner, I would like something with the capailities of the TTS system, but with the added ability for it to tune in real time.

I also like Lamas suggestion for it to do timing tuning in concert with VE's. 

I would like it to have a handlebar mounted 7 or 8 inch touchscreen display.

I would also like it to come with a free Dynojet 250i

[BVHOG]

edited for content

[ultraswede]

If I could have the same functionality in a HD tuning product as I have for my
GM truck, Hptuners (.com) I would be very happy.

All the tuning products for HDs are sadly lacking compared to what is the norm for GM cars.

I am sorry, but the list of what is missing om HD tuning products is to long to list.
If you relay want to know, ask some one with a HPtuners licence to show you the software!

Edit,
Just counted, there are 52!!! places I can do adjustments to the engine Tq handling in the ECU software.
There are may 100s of adjustment that can be made with the truck softwares.

Guess who is manufacturing the GM ECU I am referring to above.....Delphi.
Make you wonder what adjustments we cant reach in the TC softwares available to us at this time.

[hrdtail78]

1.  I would like to see a ECM programable tuner that works in conjuction with WinPep.  If I am calibrating VE's traditionaly, it takes time typing before each pull.

2.  On the fly adjustments of course. 

3.  I would like to see the X, Y axis on both sides, top and bottom of the graphs.

I wish all I did was dyno max effort builds and really cool stuff.  Truth is most of the stuff I see coming through is stage 1 and 2's.

[FLTRI]

If I could have the same functionality in a HD tuning product as I have for my
GM truck, Hptuners (.com) I would be very happy.

All the tuning products for HDs are sadly lacking compared to what is the norm for GM cars.

I am sorry, but the list of what is missing om HD tuning products is to long to list.
If you relay want to know, ask some one with a HPtuners licence to show you the software!

Ultra,
It would be much more help to go ahead and let us know which features of HPtuner that apply to tuning Harleys, that are not available with the present tuners like TTS, SEST, etc than simply state there are just too many to list.

I feel if the tuner mfgs can see and hear for themselves what CUSTOMERS desire/need rather than what the mfgs dictate to the end user, it may open their eyes to meeting market demands and expectations.

Thanks for your input,
Bob

[ultraswede]

The problem is that I don't know what is acesslible in the TC ECU, and I guess very few of the HTT members do know either.

My comment of 52 Tq related adjustment give you a hint of what might be hidden from us.

[Don D]

I could see a cooperation between software / hardware vendors, end users and tuners, all three would raise the bar significantly, enabling better quality tunes, more accessible, and of higher quality. This would take changes in hardware, software, and training by all.

End User,

NOTE: Some of these features exist but others do not.

I would  like the software to be one integrated package. By that I mean one program runs to do all tuning, uploading and logging functions. By the end of my tuning I would like to bring my motorcycle to a qualified trained tuning professional to fine tune it.

My goals:
1. Correct the VEs for the full operating range. A very visible GUI with flashing cells in the VE table would be helpful so road tuning is not so hazardous. Use broadband O₂ sensors for tuning VEs
2. Adjust starting, accel and decel parameters if needed.
3. Calibrate the map pressure actual vs program read. To me that is something that falls into the same bucket as the other constants. I also think it is an annoyance to have to toggle through maps before a realistic MAP pressure registers.
4. Perform data logging and view all spark activity not just the "fast retard" and AFV (integrator numbers, short term fuel trims).   
5. Adjust timing
6. Adjust constants
7. Adjust the software to allow DBW bikes to perform equally to cable TB bikes, limits removed

If the software\ hardware are integrated properly that should not be a tall order for most individuals that ride these bikes today as long as they possess intermediate computer skills , nor is it a huge deviation from the current products and abilities needed today.
With these improvements the process of just getting a motorcycle ball-park tuned and running safely so the motor won't be hurt is much more achievable and accessible to more people then the current state of the art.
So most users will be able to give the tuner a good running motorcycle, but one that can be put on the dyno and further power and torque mining can be done and minor annoyances corrected.

Tuner \ Hardware & Software Vendor
There are too few trained professionals. How crazy s it for an end user to send his bike across the country to get it tuned? This happens, believe me.
In order for the number of sucessful tuners to increase there needs to be better software and hardware, plain and simple. Less keystrokes (more mouse control) and less screen changing. Pocket PCs or more convienient devices to control the dyno and tune with. More training! Shops need to step up and equipping with new software and hardware, if they can justify it. As soon as Dynojet gets into using the tuning link concept to correct VEs with no Power Commander, Winpep tied directly to the Delphi, a major step forward will happen. They are going this way with the new PCV but IMHO it needs to be integrated into the tuning session on the dyno. Hit all the cells for a cylinder, upload, move on. Of course there would have to be stops to cool.
Now the biggee timing. Use the Dynojet torque module along with data logging from the Delphi to do steady state torque measurements and in similar tuning link fashion correct timing values for maximum torque, buffered from detonation due to the logging feedback

I speak freely as an end user and don't know or really want to know why these things can't be done, this is just a wish list and is a collaborative idea.

My 2c, need a coffee now

[FLTRI]

Don,
Thanks for spending the time to respond in detail.
IMO nothing you mention is unreasonable.
As you mentioned...will it be justified?
Answer is simple. Yes, if the business comes back to levels prior to the economic crash.

If the economy stays stagnet, only the strong will survive.
Strong means listening and responding according to market demands...quickly.
Strong means outstanding, knowledgeable customer tech support.
Strong means prices that are commensurate with cost vs benefit.

Good info for those mfgs listening,
Bob

[Don D]

Very true!
Sometimes shops look at ROI and really tuning for a performance shop may not have a stellar ROI but the connective business sure flourishes and really putting these motors so far from stock spec. makes a good staff tuner and the best hardware and software essential, an overhead expense rather than a profit center.

[greg1140]

It sure would be nice if we had choices other than Screaming Eagle cams for the maps. From most of the threas that I have rea on HTT most of the buils are not using Harleys cams or pipes, so it woul be nice to have a starter map that is closer to your buil.

[mayor]

as a laymen...I'm curious as to why there needs to be a calibration?  what are we calibrating?   

I'm with mayor, I'm curious too.   

...anyone?     is it VE's?  timing? hi-map ranges?   

[1FSTRK]

How about a tuning device that is so adjustable that it doesn’t need some inaccessible base codes that may or may not match your build.

The stock ecm is more than capable of handling the job it’s just programmed to the bike the way it left the factory, set up for epa and warranty requirements.

The on going argument as to what is important (like injection timing) and what is not is irrational. It’s all important or it wouldn’t be in there. Once you admit its important now you have to admit it’s important to have it match each individual bike after the alterations are made.

It is the job of the software designer to write this in a format that most people can follow.
A failure to do so will cause the product to flop. We as consumers don’t mind learning something new if it helps to achieve our ultimate goal but make no mistake the motorcycle and being able to constantly experiment to improve its performance is our ultimate goal. The tuning device is just a tool to allow us to finish the job.

The product that gives us the most adjustment options, in the must user friendly format will always win.

[wavlovr1]

I think harley should hire engineers to redesign the HD ECU completely. It should have sensors to determine the optimum settings for everything under any condition and adjust accordingly and automatically. It should include interrelated data intake and control functions connected to other systems on the bike; rear wheel spin, ABS, lean angle, cornering, suspension systems, etc. to support many modes of operations. Something like; EPA mode, Track Mode, Sport Mode, Drag race mode... I know, I know, BMW is most of the way there already, and that may well be my next motorcycle purchase after years of financing HD..

With the technology available today (do you think they have to tune the space shuttle?) there should be no need for tuners, electrical or human.... OK, there will be many arguments about why this is not possible, but having worked with rocket scientists and engineers for 7 years, I say "HummBugg", they just don't want to spend the money on R&D.... So, in answer to the question, I'd like to see a tuner that takes the HD a little closer to the goals above.

JMO, jb

[Herko]

"I think harley should hire engineers to redesign the HD ECU completely.".

Could be that Delphi has offered HD diverse systems, but the system(s) currently employed on the production models are based on cost effectiveness while still meeting the EPA gates etc.

[FLTRI]

So, in answer to the question, I'd like to see a tuner that takes the HD a little closer to the goals above.
JMO, jb

Offer up the same R&D budget the Space Shuttle got and give to the right engineer(s) then watch the bikes tune them selves.

Unfortunately budgets for these types of low volume products are usually from a very small business or even from an individual's wallet, not a Government funded space exploration project.

Consequently, the money for new product reverse engineering and existing R&D must be driven by sales forcasts of very small perportions compared to high usage items.

Bob

[1FSTRK]

Are we still talking user accessable tuning options?