Another tuner coming to market

[06roadglide]

Superchips Vigilante Harley-Davidson Tuning Solution

Anyone see or here much about this one.  Looks to be released after the V-twin Expo.

It is a Flash tuning device, offers live tuning, wide band 02's, adjustments for DBW lag, able to switch between 2 tune's on the fly.


BUT...............if it's anything like my Coretex tuner on my truck I wont like it much.

[wurk_truk]

The more tuning options, the better for all of us.  Dynojet's new one, and this, show that the market is moving towards flashing the existing ECM, and that fuelers and add ons will be a thing of the past.

Kinda like the car market a few years ago.  2003, I had to 'chip' my Lightning.  By 06, I could use LSEdit, etc. on the vert and the Z06.

Truck tuners changed the way GM does warranty.  Boost a diesel up a bunch and crap breaks.  Use a tuner on a Z06 and get more power, too.  Starting in 09, GM started a ZERO tolerance policy change.  They can tell if the ECM has EVER been overwritten.  If it was..........  drivetrain warranty went away instantly.

Eventually MOCO will use the same technology to catch folks 'flashing back to stock', and I say GOOD for the MOCO.  Flashing to stock is stealing.

[Jeffd]

It will be interesting to know if the moco can tell if the ecm has ever been reflashed even if the stock map is reinstalled.  My buddy roasted his big dodge's tranny because he was using a power chip and Dodge denied his warranty because they were able to tell it had been super chipped.  Dodges claim was tranny was rated to handle X amount of power and the chip surpassed that amount.  He fought it and lost and it was only a couple months old at the time.

[TXP]

Moco can already tell if ecm has been flashed. This is not new. Moco has been VERY lenient so far on the tuning issue. The only exceptions I'm aware of are obvious ridiculously bad tunes leading to other issues and ecm failures due to add on devices. I for one hope this doesn't change. If you have an engine issue and are asked if your bike has been 'race tuned', answer truthfully. They are going to find out anyway if they pay and if your caught in an out and out lie your done and that is as it should be. I have seen MANY exceptions made for customers with quite a few mods but each situation is different and will be judged on a case by case basis.

[HV]

Your more likely to have a dealer crap on you if you do a lot of Mods and leave a stock Flash in it ...then at least try to tune it ...  BTW you bring a bike in with a no name flash # in it and the ECM is toast .... guess who's gonna Pay ? 

As for the new tuner...its interesting...Id like to know more..... where are the flashes available ? any charge for new ones ? any way to update online ?

[Coyote]

I'm actually amazed HD, MasterTune and others are still using a hardware dongle to secure their intellectual property. Seems like it's poor security and a waste of resources considering this could easily be secured and activated across the internet. (That's how I secure my company's optionally purchased software items).

Most dongle devices don't have the resources (hardware wise) to make them very secure. I can't count how many I've reverse engineered in the past. I think the reason they don't have more issues is because, for 200-300 bucks, it's not worth the effort. Regardless, nowadays, there is no need for the extra piece of programming hardware.

It'll be interesting to see where it all goes.

[Hogflash]

Actually, a hardware dongle is much more secure than just software running on a PC.  There are many very sophisticated PC debuggers available that enable reverse engineering PC software.  A hardware dongle, depending on the embedded processor used, can be very difficult to break into, and requires knowing assembly language and how the on-chip peripherals operate to understand its operation.  Doable, but requires a good deal of specialized knowledge and effort.

Also, newer low cost embedded processors have a surprising amount of capability, considerably more than early PCs.  They are capable of decent level of encryption, should the software require that.  Most have protection mechanisms that make it almost impossible to access their internal code.

Also, a hardware dongle of some sort is needed to translate the low-level diagnostic bus protocols to something the PC can deal with, such as USB or serial data.  So, as long as you are doing the translation, might as well add other features such as security.

If done correctly, it is not possible for the MOCO to track if a ECM has been programmed and returned to stock.  That said, it is possible to add hardware or make the ECM software more secure such that this could be tracked.  Will MOCO pay the additional cost to do this?  your guess is as good as mine.

--Gary

[Coyote]

Actually, a hardware dongle is much more secure than just software running on a PC.  There are many very sophisticated PC debuggers available that enable reverse engineering PC software.  A hardware dongle, depending on the embedded processor used, can be very difficult to break into, and requires knowing assembly language and how the on-chip peripherals operate to understand its operation.  Doable, but requires a good deal of specialized knowledge and effort.

Also, newer low cost embedded processors have a surprising amount of capability, considerably more than early PCs.  They are capable of decent level of encryption, should the software require that.  Most have protection mechanisms that make it almost impossible to access their internal code.

Also, a hardware dongle of some sort is needed to translate the low-level diagnostic bus protocols to something the PC can deal with, such as USB or serial data.  So, as long as you are doing the translation, might as well add other features such as security.

If done correctly, it is not possible for the MOCO to track if a ECM has been programmed and returned to stock.  That said, it is possible to add hardware or make the ECM software more secure such that this could be tracked.  Will MOCO pay the additional cost to do this?  your guess is as good as mine.

--Gary

Hmm, well, I've been in the software
/ hardware business for 28 years now. Owned a tech company for the last 18 years. I probably have it wrong. Still, I don't need a hardware dongle to access my bank account. They probably got it wrong too.  Even the very expensive cad tools we use stopped using dongles 10 years ago. They probably got it wrong too. 

We do this every day. With the connectivity we have now days, I'll secure my products with a link back to the mother ship over any other technology without a second thought. Plus, if my customers don't pay their bills, one click and their ill gotten bootie is useless.

[yositime]

Yeah there are several effective ways to skin that cat, and several ways that have surprising simple flaws that make them easy to break. So the internet is down and you're dead in the water? Seems short sighted.

Regardless, we just can't take the chance of exposing our most important stuff to the internet so we won't use products that require authorization or manage licenses via the web. I hate the very few companies that insist on doing it that way as there could be a couple useful products we can't use without a hassle. Somewhat arrogant, IMHO. We do use RSA tokens to help protect access to our less important information...  but information that is more important than most bank accounts. 

[Dennis The Menace]

Internet down?  Never-- but your connection to it, possible.  That can be addressed with  proper engineering--its a non-issue.

Securing data across the Internet is not as difficult as it sounds.  You need to know about security of data and systems.  Again, another non-issue, if you now what you are doing.

Dennis

[HogMike]

THANKS A LOT!!!

Now my head hurts!

I think I'll go change the advance curve in the old bike: change the distributor springs!

[Flat Dog]

I just wonder what effect this new DIY device trend will have on dyno tuners. Having real world info at your fingertips while riding in normal every day conditions just may put a good hurting on professional tuners. I saw something similar happen in another industry which used to require years of training. Then again, perhaps I am totally wrong.

[mayor]

Looks like an interesting system, but I don't think I'll be running out to replace the TTS on my DBW bike anytime soon because of it.  Perhaps I'm just not smart enough to know why some of the stated features are necessary.    Other than the wideband live tune option (which some would mention that aren't really widebands  ), I can't see the additional features it offers to be all that relevant.      It also appears that the basic "pick your map and flash" set-up isn't a whole lot different than what is currently available through TTS. 

Having real world info at your fingertips while riding in normal every day conditions just may put a good hurting on professional tuners.

I don't think this system will have much impact on pro-tuners.     I think there is a small percentage of HD owners who are willing to invest in the time to learn the basics of a good tune, let alone the more advanced details.   Plus, many folks just want the piece of mind knowing that the person tuning their bike has at least some sort of clue as to what they are doing.  The game changer will be when someone develops an all inclusive system that auto-tunes fuel and also auto-adjust timing, leaving nothing for the DYI'er to do but load the system.   

[Jeffd]

Any mention of cost?

[wurk_truk]

I truly doubt one could have any kind of auto timing feature anytime soon.  How would THAT be accomplished?  ION sensing?  Won't work.  NO ONE really knows optimal tuning on timing and it is ALL still theoretical.  Even for IndyCar, F1, and Nascar.  Best bet is to place a unit on a dyno and tune for the power, but even THAT may not be best timing.

So THAT (auto timing) is truly a pipe dream to many.

SuperChip USED to have a decent name, so maybe this will be a nice unit.  I see most tuners like this aimed at the Stage1 market anyways. As it should be.

[Flat Dog]

Mayor, I do believe you are correct. These devices will make a decent 'generic' tune easier, but will not replace a real professional with years of experience.

[Sam45]

real professional tuners out of business.  really and how many are going to be out of business?  I hope it puts all the generic tuners who think they are professionals out of business.  its all you read over and over and over people getting screwed over by tuner people.  good for us I will take a decent 'generic' tune made easier.

[BVHOG]

If nothing else it's one more option and competition is always beneficial to the consumer.  I would be interested to hear how you can swap mapping on the fly when it is a flash tune system. None of these systems are about to run anyone out of business, the average Joe doesn't wan't to know all the BS we talk about on these forums, they just want their bike running at it's best.

[HV]

If nothing else it's one more option and competition is always beneficial to the consumer.  I would be interested to hear how you can swap mapping on the fly when it is a flash tune system. None of these systems are about to run anyone out of business, the average Joe doesn't wan't to know all the BS we talk about on these forums, they just want their bike running at it's best.

[/color]


Thats a Fact .... of probably 100 Customers last summer that bought SESPTs ... I would say 3 or 4 even attempted a Smart Tune ...most just load a map and ride... 5 or 6 had Dyno Tunes done....... as for any that get close to the in depth info on here perhaps 1 

[Jamie Long]

If nothing else it's one more option and competition is always beneficial to the consumer.  I would be interested to hear how you can swap mapping on the fly when it is a flash tune system. None of these systems are about to run anyone out of business, the average Joe doesn't wan't to know all the BS we talk about on these forums, they just want their bike running at it's best.

I talked pretty in depth with Superchips at SEMA with the individual heading up the Viginante, and when they have finished product they are going to send me one to test. It has some pretty nice features, I believe the live map switching they are speaking of will actually switch to an alternate Lambda/AFR table, it does not actually switch/reflash the calibration. 

[1FSTRK]

If nothing else it's one more option and competition is always beneficial to the consumer.  I would be interested to hear how you can swap mapping on the fly when it is a flash tune system. None of these systems are about to run anyone out of business, the average Joe doesn't wan't to know all the BS we talk about on these forums, they just want their bike running at it's best.

[/color]


Thats a Fact .... of probably 100 Customers last summer that bought SESPTs ... I would say 3 or 4 even attempted a Smart Tune ...most just load a map and ride... 5 or 6 had Dyno Tunes done....... as for any that get close to the in depth info on here perhaps 1 

I think these two quotes contradict each other. Do you really believe that 90 of those bikes truly had the best possible tune with a flashed map? They may have no idea how much better the bike would run once tuned

[mayor]

.... of probably 100 Customers last summer that bought SESPTs ... I would say 3 or 4 even attempted a Smart Tune ...most just load a map and ride... 5 or 6 had Dyno Tunes done....... as for any that get close to the in depth info on here perhaps 1 

I think these two quotes contradict each other. Do you really believe that 90 of those bikes truly had the best possible tune with a flashed map? They may have no idea how much better the bike would run once tuned

I don't think HV was suggesting that the 9 out of 10 bikes ran the best with a flashed map, just that about 9 out of 10 people was satisfied enough not to spend more time or money in persuit of a better tune.  I believe there is value in a good tune (as I am sure HV does as well), but the problem comes in of how to describe in quantitative numbers how a proper "tune" will affect someone. Unless someone recognizes a tuning problem that's causing issues with their bike, most folks just feel that the bike is running good enough with a flash that they don't need a tune (keep in mind, I'm not advocating this mindset).  Most of the time, there's only one measurement that is done during the process (wot) and there's no way of guaranteeing the improvements that one might see in that area on paper prior to the tune.  All other benefits could be seen as theoretical to the consumer, and most do not want to pony up their cash on the faith that they will notice a difference.  Even with this mindset, I'm still amazed that more folks aren't v-tuning or smart tuning their bikes.     My guess is it's the fear of messing something up....

[1FSTRK]

I don't think HV was suggesting that the 9 out of 10 bikes ran the best with a flashed map, just that about 9 out of 10 people was satisfied enough not to spend more time or money in persuit of a better tune.  I believe there is value in a good tune (as I am sure HV does as well), but the problem comes in of how to describe in quantitative numbers how a proper "tune" will affect someone. Unless someone recognizes a tuning problem that's causing issues with their bike, most folks just feel that the bike is running good enough with a flash that they don't need a tune (keep in mind, I'm not advocating this mindset).  Most of the time, there's only one measurement that is done during the process (wot) and there's no way of guaranteeing the improvements that one might see in that area on paper prior to the tune.  All other benefits could be seen as theoretical to the consumer, and most do not want to pony up their cash on the faith that they will notice a difference.  Even with this mindset, I'm still amazed that more folks aren't v-tuning or smart tuning their bikes.     My guess is it's the fear of messing something up....

Fair enough. I guess that I misunderstood

[Steve Cole]

We've always told everyone that Vtune will get you 85% of a complete tune but if you want to spend the time the tools are there to allow you to get it all. We thought that most would use this to help them get a better tune but I cannot say how many people have called us and said " my bike runs great with just a base calibration, should I still Vtune?" So it's really upto each person as to what they are looking for. On the other hand I have seen way to many people chasing a couple HP that they think they should have that they do not, so it goes both ways.

[Dennis The Menace]

Steve, your comments are right on.

While you wouldnt expect someone to come to this topic and say all they want is a canned map and its good enough, there are riders out there like that, as Brian stated.  A lot of them.  Maybe they dont know they arene getting 100% out of their configuration, or dont care.  Maybe good enough, is "good enough".

There are others who want to work with the tuners and maps and data runs and tweak their cals to get the best they can get, limited by their experience or abilities or even lack of a dyno or good place to ride to gather data.

And, there are those who want to micro adjust and tweak every cell at every MAP value to try and wring out that last little drop from their motor.

IMO, each of these types of riders are right.  If it works for them, then cool.  And, I have been someone who fit every one of these types of riders I just described.  But, now I am back to the "good enough" category, because I found myself going for rides to tune the bike or gather data, rather than just enjoying the ride and forgetting lifes cares.  I lost sight of the fun of riding, by trying to get a perfect running bike.  Damn, was I am idiot!

Dennis

[FLTRI]

For consideration:
An owner knows his bike and that's the best he knows.

Until an owner gets the opportunity to experience a well-tuned bike he is usually satisfied what he has is "good enough".

The exceptions are those who get their bike tuned, sometimes brow-beaten by their bud(s) who have.
Just my observations over the 15 years of tuning these bikes,
Bob

[Dennis The Menace]

Bob, yeah, I gotcha.  And  I have friends that couldnt care less about a tune as well (although, they have stock bikes).  As my post pointed out, different strokes.  Some really dont care if they have a great tune, others do.  To each his own.

Dennis

[hotroadking]

Lots of people will buy what is "an easier looking" application to fix the problem

The problem being on stock to modified bikes - Heat

If they can hook up a simple programmer and dump in a
map and the bike runs cooler then they would be fine with the results.

[Mr. Wizard]

IMO, each of these types of riders are right.  If it works for them, then cool.  And, I have been someone who fit every one of these types of riders I just described.  But, now I am back to the "good enough" category, because I found myself going for rides to tune the bike or gather data, rather than just enjoying the ride and forgetting lifes cares.  I lost sight of the fun of riding, by trying to get a perfect running bike.  Damn, was I am idiot!

Dennis

I see this a lot Dennis... myself, being a guy that is catching up with age, I've reverted to ride-ability and to enjoy the experience held within a weaken state of physical conditioning and health issues but don't want to give up fast when it is safe to do so with a young-at-heart mind. I get it, I really do. Also, loud is not an option anymore and with the help of proper tuning we are finding Loud is not fast, it's just loud.

I see several of the "Baby Boomer Bikers" trying to revert to their 20's by modifying a perfectly good bike into something they can't handle nor want after one riding season. Then there are guys that step their experience such as... Wiz, can you tune my bike with a TTS? Then later... Wiz, I'm going to replace my stock head pipe and muffs, can you give me a hand then retune? Just for them to come to me later and say... Wiz, I've done all this research and I'm going to put this great cam in, can you help me out and tune again?  The answer is normally sure, no problem but when it comes from a guy that has to wear an oxygen bottle or a colostomy bag I have to question the idea and get to their real goals. Although I frown upon putting my thumbprint on someones bike, yet I've even been successful stopping or at least changing some of their unneeded modification opinions.

My point to all this is simply... simplicity; as stated above by hotroadking. The easier these devices are to use the more riders are going to think their upgrade is a snap and possibly put themselves in an unsafe zone ride-ability wise. The mind doesn't get as old as fast as the body. Reaction times are down and the older body doesn't bounce like it used to. So, good enough in most cases and in reality is just what the Doctor ordered.


-wiz

[HogMike]

IMO, each of these types of riders are right.  If it works for them, then cool.  And, I have been someone who fit every one of these types of riders I just described.  But, now I am back to the "good enough" category, because I found myself going for rides to tune the bike or gather data, rather than just enjoying the ride and forgetting lifes cares.  I lost sight of the fun of riding, by trying to get a perfect running bike.  Damn, was I am idiot!

Dennis

I see this a lot Dennis... myself, being a guy that is catching up with age, I've reverted to ride-ability and to enjoy the experience held within a weaken state of physical conditioning and health issues but don't want to give up fast when it is safe to do so with a young-at-heart mind. I get it, I really do. Also, loud is not an option anymore and with the help of proper tuning we are finding Loud is not fast, it's just loud.

I see several of the "Baby Boomer Bikers" trying to revert to their 20's by modifying a perfectly good bike into something they can't handle nor want after one riding season. Then there are guys that step their experience such as... Wiz, can you tune my bike with a TTS? Then later... Wiz, I'm going to replace my stock head pipe and muffs, can you give me a hand then retune? Just for them to come to me later and say... Wiz, I've done all this research and I'm going to put this great cam in, can you help me out and tune again?  The answer is normally sure, no problem but when it comes from a guy that has to wear an oxygen bottle or a colostomy bag I have to question the idea and get to their real goals. Although I frown upon putting my thumbprint on someones bike, yet I've even been successful stopping or at least changing some of their unneeded modification opinions.

My point to all this is simply... simplicity; as stated above by hotroadking. The easier these devices are to use the more riders are going to think their upgrade is a snap and possibly put themselves in an unsafe zone ride-ability wise. The mind doesn't get as old as fast as the body. Reaction times are down and the older body doesn't bounce like it used to. So, good enough in most cases and in reality is just what the Doctor ordered.


-wiz

[FLTRI]

...The easier these devices are to use the more riders are going to think their upgrade is a snap and possibly put themselves in an unsafe zone ride-ability wise. The mind doesn't get as old as fast as the body. Reaction times are down and the older body doesn't bounce like it used to. So, good enough in most cases and in reality is just what the Doctor ordered.
-wiz

I've never heard safety used for a reason for not modifying and/or tuning a bike.
Thanks for the input,
Bob

[Dennis The Menace]

Bob, its simple....some guys dont have any business having a fast, well tuned bike, cuz they cant handle it.  lol   Actually, I am feeling my age and kind of am thinking the same thing.  I need to stick to a stock motor and not go all out with a 120, like I would want....I wuld probably outride my abilities and kill myself.  lol

Dennis

[Mr. Wizard]

...The easier these devices are to use the more riders are going to think their upgrade is a snap and possibly put themselves in an unsafe zone ride-ability wise. The mind doesn't get as old as fast as the body. Reaction times are down and the older body doesn't bounce like it used to. So, good enough in most cases and in reality is just what the Doctor ordered.
-wiz

I've never heard safety used for a reason for not modifying and/or tuning a bike.
Thanks for the input,
Bob

Bob...  Like I mentioned, I'm on the tail end and riding the coat tails of the Baby Boomers. The majority of these guys ask me about reducing heat. A byproduct is increased performance.

If I help with a home brew, as you pro tuners call it, I must get into the riders riding style AND his mental/physical condition. Example. I will not max the throttle blade tables for a guy that just wants to enjoy his ride. I want him to have that lag. If the brew is for a trike rider that has a weak grip I'm going to do the same but give them enough to move off the line with a heavy trike.

I've tuned the wife's CVO just to see her accidentally snap the throttle at a low speed and see her almost come off the bike. I had to detune her CVO without her knowing. Now she has good ride-ability but 3000 and over she is very aware she has to hold on tight as it is very obvious the tune is much better in that area. Yes, she loves it now that is ***Broke In*** (wink). It's not as scary to ride so she enjoys the experience.

These are the things I believe one must watch for the individual's ride-ability. Just me, but I believe this is an intricate part of the tuning process by taking a few minutes to get to know and understand the rider.

.02

-wiz

[hotroadking]

My feeling of unsafe is more so from improperly tuned
and potentially hurting an engine vs power to ability ratio...

[FLTRI]

My feeling of unsafe is more so from improperly tuned (causing hesitations or coughing, especially in the middle of an intersection) and potentially hurting an engine (from being too lean,etc) vs power to ability ratio...

IMO the safest bike is one with great throttle response and smooth running. If a rider cannot control his/her right wrist to keep the bike under control they are not a safe rider. I feel it is safer to educate the rider rather than detune the bike., but that's just me.

Bob

[hotroadking]

I think we are confusing safety with safe,

The riders ability to handle a bike with 50 hp or 500 is key to their and others safety

However an owners ability to properly tune a bike determines if the tune is safe to operate vis a vis the engines basic requiements...

[Mr. Wizard]

You will never find one of my tunes unsafe for the bike's motor or the bike rider due to the following....

(causing hesitations or coughing, especially in the middle of an intersection) (from being too lean,etc)

However... I do agree that some cannot completely control their right wrist and all the education given to them will not make them stop riding. The educated tuner can assist at this point again to make the riders experience enjoyable. The same right wrist issue goes for those who only know two speeds, WOT and Off Throttle as they too are unsafe riders but dare not detune them for all hell will break loose. These are the ones I will not assist.

Sorry to get this thread off topic, never thought this would be much of a conversation piece.

later...


-wiz

[hotroadking]

I think these two quotes contradict each other. Do you really believe that 90 of those bikes truly had the best possible tune with a flashed map? They may have no idea how much better the bike would run once tuned

Not really, but to these people they have no idea and really won't test the result of a canned map vs the dyno and they probably don't spend all day on a board hashing it out.

When you think in the context of the common HTT High Horsepower Hombre' you find yourself discussing things with people of similar mindsets, ie max power, tweaking tunes etc.  However talk with your buddies that ride and added a filter or pipes ask them what they want from a "tune".

It's for the most part, probably not going to be "I want 20 more HP and TQ at 2500 RPM" ..

More than likely it will be one of the following:

1) "How the heck do I cool this engine down it's roasting my nuts!" 
2) "Hey I bought a SE filter and Billy Bob Big Boy Bazooka Pipes, what should I do, do I need to tune it?"
3) Finally you'll get the guy that wants to make changes and trusts YOU for what you've done and will buy what you advise,  and you end up doing VE runs for him LOL

These folks are similar in that they would be button pushers that want to load a map.. Not much more. (The third guy might but he wants you or a dyno to do it)

We know that if they run a VE session and tuned it could be better.  However to even get them to use the feature in the system that will maximize the potential the user interface will need some work.  It will become more complex for the developer in order to create simplified user interface that allows Joe Biker to feel comfortable with tuning his own bike.

Now it's JMO but most people are going to want to push one button (or as close to as they can) to obtain data, tune and update.  Running three apps to update, then opening the original to reset PE and AFR etc is more than the average Joe is willing to do, so they load a base map and stop, or, perhaps, read the tech docs on the web site, see what is required of the application and balk.... Turning it over to some tuner who uses his application.

So yes IMO if they make the move to buy a tuner, then for the most part they will pop in the map, ride off feeling faster and stronger and cooler and never press the VE option.

If you want you users to get better results (meaning tell everyone why it was easy and how they did it themselves) then a need to simply the user interface part of the application is necessary IMHO regardless of the developer..

[wurk_truk]

Thinking about it... HRK is ON THE $$$$$.  Us, we, the guys on here, are different and surely a very small minority of folks that ride MOCO products.  I don't personally know of ANYBODY that has done more than a Stage 1, unless they are from the various boards we all read.

The PCV is a good example.  I would say that WE... the folks that TRY to gain an understanding of crap... poo poo the PCV.  But, go to HDForums, look at the customer base that Jamie has staked out, and one can easily see what HRK says is true.  Those guys want their bikes cooler and to run the Stage 1s they installed.  The PCV is an easy interface and there are a lot of maps, of which Jamie PICKS the one for YOU kinda thing.

To get folks into a better system than the PCV... the interface needs to be less cumbersome.  So... look at the new PCVision... it will be the same deal as PCV, but will run closed loop.

All of those guys will think their bike is running top notch, and we know they are not... but it IS the owners perception that counts.

I, for one, want a company like TTS to continue the MAstertune product, with all of its difficulties, because I wish the best I can do for my bike... which is way beyond a Stage1 anymore.  Others will feel the same.   There will continue to be two 'lines' of tuners.

As far a Wizzard goes... that is crazy to detune a bike.   But... throttle plate action ect isn't really a detune.  Doc, etc recommend that be kept in play anyways.  As long as the VEs are correct, etc for the bike, then things like TP isn't an issue.   But..... if folks make the power and rideability of the bike less than perfect as possible... they need to stop.  Tail end of boomers means what?  Im 55 and right in the middle of that generation and that means wizzard is early 40's.  He thinks me, since I AM a boomer needs my bike detuned?  Thats so much BS I cannot stand it.   I'm saving for a 117 or a 120R right now.  NO detunes there either.   Most folks ride within reason, and do NOT use all power available.  I had a 2008 Z06.  NO WAY could one utilize THAT on the streets... but I DID do track days at my old age.   I want MORE power to HAVE IT!  It's how I am wired.  I simply do NOT over ride the bike.  I'm NOT the best rider in the world, either.  But... when I whack the throttle... THAT is what I wish to happen.  A 'slow reacting' bike is NOT one that I would wish to pass a semi on RT 33 in WV... for sure.   I find Wizzard's posts on this highly insulting... HE can pick better than the owner...   Lord help me if he gets to pick on ME if I ever need O2 or have a colostomy.   THAT impacts my wish to pass a vehicle how??

[Mr. Wizard]

As far a Wizzard goes... that is crazy to detune a bike.   But... throttle plate action ect isn't really a detune.  Doc, etc recommend that be kept in play anyways.  As long as the VEs are correct, etc for the bike, then things like TP isn't an issue.   But..... if folks make the power and rideability of the bike less than perfect as possible... they need to stop.  Tail end of boomers means what?  Im 55 and right in the middle of that generation and that means wizzard is early 40's.  He thinks me, since I AM a boomer needs my bike detuned?  Thats so much BS I cannot stand it.   I'm saving for a 117 or a 120R right now.  NO detunes there either.   Most folks ride within reason, and do NOT use all power available.  I had a 2008 Z06.  NO WAY could one utilize THAT on the streets... but I DID do track days at my old age.   I want MORE power to HAVE IT!  It's how I am wired.  I simply do NOT over ride the bike.  I'm NOT the best rider in the world, either.  But... when I whack the throttle... THAT is what I wish to happen.  A 'slow reacting' bike is NOT one that I would wish to pass a semi on RT 33 in WV... for sure.   I find Wizzard's posts on this highly insulting... HE can pick better than the owner...   Lord help me if he gets to pick on ME if I ever need O2 or have a colostomy.   THAT impacts my wish to pass a vehicle how??

btw... there is only one Z in Wizard. I was also street racing in the early 70's and I too am 55 but I've grown up.

You don't find me coming here and bashing a poster, that's not my style. ''No one can make you feel inferior without your consent''. -Eleanor Roosevelt

Before I work with someone on a tune I get to know them and their riding style. If they don't want the throttle so perky then I "detune" it. I know how my wife rides and she doesn't like to be flipped off the bike so I take the edge off of the bottom end. I also don't come here posting some of the abortions that some of the so called pro tuners sell to their unsuspecting clients. Lastly, hardly no one can do a worse job than Harley does with their stock tunes but they don't sputter, cough or hesitate from the factory nor do they when I assist someone.

Have a Merry Christmas everyone.

[Jeffd]

I have been on a lot of high strung bikes but never one so high strung I could not control the throttle enough to keep from being flipped off, while I guess I have been flipped off but not off the bike lol.

[Mr. Wizard]

I have been on a lot of high strung bikes but never one so high strung I could not control the throttle enough to keep from being flipped off, while I guess I have been flipped off but not off the bike lol.

LOL... several years ago when she got her first Dyna she lost her right hand on the throttle grip when leaving, lucky it wasn't the left or she would have gone flying through the bushes. Ever since then she has been very cautious but doesn't like the throttle to be so sensitive. He too is mid 50's and her hand strength is only adequate. She loves to ride on her own bike and the best thing I can do is make it so she enjoys the opportunity and the experience as long as she can. 

[wurk_truk]

I can agree with the TP (throttle progressivity [sp]), as I did in my above post.

Also, as stated... Doc says to KEEP the TP active... for this very reason.

But profiling for a tune seems really kind of??

But, except for 911 rides... I ride by myself or one or two folks... must be a REASON for that!  HAHA!!!

[Mr. Wizard]

I can agree with the TP (throttle progressivity [sp]), as I did in my above post.

Also, as stated... Doc says to KEEP the TP active... for this very reason.

But profiling for a tune seems really kind of??

But, except for 911 rides... I ride by myself or one or two folks... must be a REASON for that!  HAHA!!!

I really enjoy working with people and it seems to me the more they understand the process of what can and shouldn't be done the best rider experience they will have. Am I different, maybe, but when I help someone tune their bike there is a smile and gratitude afterward even friendships that have formed. That's just something that can't be done when cranking tunes out the door..... or can it? Should there be a few minutes spent with the customer before the tuning process? I remember a restaurant we go from time to time, the table we usually sit at is great! It's over a river on a cliff and the evening view is tremendous...  the food sucks or is adequate at best but we still think it's the greatest place ever and we return with our $$$$.

Sorry this has gotten so far off topic guys.... I'll try to sneak out the back door again.


-wiz