Another tuner coming to market

[FLTRI]

For consideration:
An owner knows his bike and that's the best he knows.

Until an owner gets the opportunity to experience a well-tuned bike he is usually satisfied what he has is "good enough".

The exceptions are those who get their bike tuned, sometimes brow-beaten by their bud(s) who have.
Just my observations over the 15 years of tuning these bikes,
Bob

[Dennis The Menace]

Bob, yeah, I gotcha.  And  I have friends that couldnt care less about a tune as well (although, they have stock bikes).  As my post pointed out, different strokes.  Some really dont care if they have a great tune, others do.  To each his own.

Dennis

[hotroadking]

Lots of people will buy what is "an easier looking" application to fix the problem

The problem being on stock to modified bikes - Heat

If they can hook up a simple programmer and dump in a
map and the bike runs cooler then they would be fine with the results.

[Mr. Wizard]

IMO, each of these types of riders are right.  If it works for them, then cool.  And, I have been someone who fit every one of these types of riders I just described.  But, now I am back to the "good enough" category, because I found myself going for rides to tune the bike or gather data, rather than just enjoying the ride and forgetting lifes cares.  I lost sight of the fun of riding, by trying to get a perfect running bike.  Damn, was I am idiot!

Dennis

I see this a lot Dennis... myself, being a guy that is catching up with age, I've reverted to ride-ability and to enjoy the experience held within a weaken state of physical conditioning and health issues but don't want to give up fast when it is safe to do so with a young-at-heart mind. I get it, I really do. Also, loud is not an option anymore and with the help of proper tuning we are finding Loud is not fast, it's just loud.

I see several of the "Baby Boomer Bikers" trying to revert to their 20's by modifying a perfectly good bike into something they can't handle nor want after one riding season. Then there are guys that step their experience such as... Wiz, can you tune my bike with a TTS? Then later... Wiz, I'm going to replace my stock head pipe and muffs, can you give me a hand then retune? Just for them to come to me later and say... Wiz, I've done all this research and I'm going to put this great cam in, can you help me out and tune again?  The answer is normally sure, no problem but when it comes from a guy that has to wear an oxygen bottle or a colostomy bag I have to question the idea and get to their real goals. Although I frown upon putting my thumbprint on someones bike, yet I've even been successful stopping or at least changing some of their unneeded modification opinions.

My point to all this is simply... simplicity; as stated above by hotroadking. The easier these devices are to use the more riders are going to think their upgrade is a snap and possibly put themselves in an unsafe zone ride-ability wise. The mind doesn't get as old as fast as the body. Reaction times are down and the older body doesn't bounce like it used to. So, good enough in most cases and in reality is just what the Doctor ordered.


-wiz

[HogMike]

IMO, each of these types of riders are right.  If it works for them, then cool.  And, I have been someone who fit every one of these types of riders I just described.  But, now I am back to the "good enough" category, because I found myself going for rides to tune the bike or gather data, rather than just enjoying the ride and forgetting lifes cares.  I lost sight of the fun of riding, by trying to get a perfect running bike.  Damn, was I am idiot!

Dennis

I see this a lot Dennis... myself, being a guy that is catching up with age, I've reverted to ride-ability and to enjoy the experience held within a weaken state of physical conditioning and health issues but don't want to give up fast when it is safe to do so with a young-at-heart mind. I get it, I really do. Also, loud is not an option anymore and with the help of proper tuning we are finding Loud is not fast, it's just loud.

I see several of the "Baby Boomer Bikers" trying to revert to their 20's by modifying a perfectly good bike into something they can't handle nor want after one riding season. Then there are guys that step their experience such as... Wiz, can you tune my bike with a TTS? Then later... Wiz, I'm going to replace my stock head pipe and muffs, can you give me a hand then retune? Just for them to come to me later and say... Wiz, I've done all this research and I'm going to put this great cam in, can you help me out and tune again?  The answer is normally sure, no problem but when it comes from a guy that has to wear an oxygen bottle or a colostomy bag I have to question the idea and get to their real goals. Although I frown upon putting my thumbprint on someones bike, yet I've even been successful stopping or at least changing some of their unneeded modification opinions.

My point to all this is simply... simplicity; as stated above by hotroadking. The easier these devices are to use the more riders are going to think their upgrade is a snap and possibly put themselves in an unsafe zone ride-ability wise. The mind doesn't get as old as fast as the body. Reaction times are down and the older body doesn't bounce like it used to. So, good enough in most cases and in reality is just what the Doctor ordered.


-wiz

[FLTRI]

...The easier these devices are to use the more riders are going to think their upgrade is a snap and possibly put themselves in an unsafe zone ride-ability wise. The mind doesn't get as old as fast as the body. Reaction times are down and the older body doesn't bounce like it used to. So, good enough in most cases and in reality is just what the Doctor ordered.
-wiz

I've never heard safety used for a reason for not modifying and/or tuning a bike.
Thanks for the input,
Bob

[Dennis The Menace]

Bob, its simple....some guys dont have any business having a fast, well tuned bike, cuz they cant handle it.  lol   Actually, I am feeling my age and kind of am thinking the same thing.  I need to stick to a stock motor and not go all out with a 120, like I would want....I wuld probably outride my abilities and kill myself.  lol

Dennis

[Mr. Wizard]

...The easier these devices are to use the more riders are going to think their upgrade is a snap and possibly put themselves in an unsafe zone ride-ability wise. The mind doesn't get as old as fast as the body. Reaction times are down and the older body doesn't bounce like it used to. So, good enough in most cases and in reality is just what the Doctor ordered.
-wiz

I've never heard safety used for a reason for not modifying and/or tuning a bike.
Thanks for the input,
Bob

Bob...  Like I mentioned, I'm on the tail end and riding the coat tails of the Baby Boomers. The majority of these guys ask me about reducing heat. A byproduct is increased performance.

If I help with a home brew, as you pro tuners call it, I must get into the riders riding style AND his mental/physical condition. Example. I will not max the throttle blade tables for a guy that just wants to enjoy his ride. I want him to have that lag. If the brew is for a trike rider that has a weak grip I'm going to do the same but give them enough to move off the line with a heavy trike.

I've tuned the wife's CVO just to see her accidentally snap the throttle at a low speed and see her almost come off the bike. I had to detune her CVO without her knowing. Now she has good ride-ability but 3000 and over she is very aware she has to hold on tight as it is very obvious the tune is much better in that area. Yes, she loves it now that is ***Broke In*** (wink). It's not as scary to ride so she enjoys the experience.

These are the things I believe one must watch for the individual's ride-ability. Just me, but I believe this is an intricate part of the tuning process by taking a few minutes to get to know and understand the rider.

.02

-wiz

[hotroadking]

My feeling of unsafe is more so from improperly tuned
and potentially hurting an engine vs power to ability ratio...

[FLTRI]

My feeling of unsafe is more so from improperly tuned (causing hesitations or coughing, especially in the middle of an intersection) and potentially hurting an engine (from being too lean,etc) vs power to ability ratio...

IMO the safest bike is one with great throttle response and smooth running. If a rider cannot control his/her right wrist to keep the bike under control they are not a safe rider. I feel it is safer to educate the rider rather than detune the bike., but that's just me.

Bob

[hotroadking]

I think we are confusing safety with safe,

The riders ability to handle a bike with 50 hp or 500 is key to their and others safety

However an owners ability to properly tune a bike determines if the tune is safe to operate vis a vis the engines basic requiements...

[Mr. Wizard]

You will never find one of my tunes unsafe for the bike's motor or the bike rider due to the following....

(causing hesitations or coughing, especially in the middle of an intersection) (from being too lean,etc)

However... I do agree that some cannot completely control their right wrist and all the education given to them will not make them stop riding. The educated tuner can assist at this point again to make the riders experience enjoyable. The same right wrist issue goes for those who only know two speeds, WOT and Off Throttle as they too are unsafe riders but dare not detune them for all hell will break loose. These are the ones I will not assist.

Sorry to get this thread off topic, never thought this would be much of a conversation piece.

later...


-wiz

[hotroadking]

I think these two quotes contradict each other. Do you really believe that 90 of those bikes truly had the best possible tune with a flashed map? They may have no idea how much better the bike would run once tuned

Not really, but to these people they have no idea and really won't test the result of a canned map vs the dyno and they probably don't spend all day on a board hashing it out.

When you think in the context of the common HTT High Horsepower Hombre' you find yourself discussing things with people of similar mindsets, ie max power, tweaking tunes etc.  However talk with your buddies that ride and added a filter or pipes ask them what they want from a "tune".

It's for the most part, probably not going to be "I want 20 more HP and TQ at 2500 RPM" ..

More than likely it will be one of the following:

1) "How the heck do I cool this engine down it's roasting my nuts!" 
2) "Hey I bought a SE filter and Billy Bob Big Boy Bazooka Pipes, what should I do, do I need to tune it?"
3) Finally you'll get the guy that wants to make changes and trusts YOU for what you've done and will buy what you advise,  and you end up doing VE runs for him LOL

These folks are similar in that they would be button pushers that want to load a map.. Not much more. (The third guy might but he wants you or a dyno to do it)

We know that if they run a VE session and tuned it could be better.  However to even get them to use the feature in the system that will maximize the potential the user interface will need some work.  It will become more complex for the developer in order to create simplified user interface that allows Joe Biker to feel comfortable with tuning his own bike.

Now it's JMO but most people are going to want to push one button (or as close to as they can) to obtain data, tune and update.  Running three apps to update, then opening the original to reset PE and AFR etc is more than the average Joe is willing to do, so they load a base map and stop, or, perhaps, read the tech docs on the web site, see what is required of the application and balk.... Turning it over to some tuner who uses his application.

So yes IMO if they make the move to buy a tuner, then for the most part they will pop in the map, ride off feeling faster and stronger and cooler and never press the VE option.

If you want you users to get better results (meaning tell everyone why it was easy and how they did it themselves) then a need to simply the user interface part of the application is necessary IMHO regardless of the developer..

[wurk_truk]

Thinking about it... HRK is ON THE $$$$$.  Us, we, the guys on here, are different and surely a very small minority of folks that ride MOCO products.  I don't personally know of ANYBODY that has done more than a Stage 1, unless they are from the various boards we all read.

The PCV is a good example.  I would say that WE... the folks that TRY to gain an understanding of crap... poo poo the PCV.  But, go to HDForums, look at the customer base that Jamie has staked out, and one can easily see what HRK says is true.  Those guys want their bikes cooler and to run the Stage 1s they installed.  The PCV is an easy interface and there are a lot of maps, of which Jamie PICKS the one for YOU kinda thing.

To get folks into a better system than the PCV... the interface needs to be less cumbersome.  So... look at the new PCVision... it will be the same deal as PCV, but will run closed loop.

All of those guys will think their bike is running top notch, and we know they are not... but it IS the owners perception that counts.

I, for one, want a company like TTS to continue the MAstertune product, with all of its difficulties, because I wish the best I can do for my bike... which is way beyond a Stage1 anymore.  Others will feel the same.   There will continue to be two 'lines' of tuners.

As far a Wizzard goes... that is crazy to detune a bike.   But... throttle plate action ect isn't really a detune.  Doc, etc recommend that be kept in play anyways.  As long as the VEs are correct, etc for the bike, then things like TP isn't an issue.   But..... if folks make the power and rideability of the bike less than perfect as possible... they need to stop.  Tail end of boomers means what?  Im 55 and right in the middle of that generation and that means wizzard is early 40's.  He thinks me, since I AM a boomer needs my bike detuned?  Thats so much BS I cannot stand it.   I'm saving for a 117 or a 120R right now.  NO detunes there either.   Most folks ride within reason, and do NOT use all power available.  I had a 2008 Z06.  NO WAY could one utilize THAT on the streets... but I DID do track days at my old age.   I want MORE power to HAVE IT!  It's how I am wired.  I simply do NOT over ride the bike.  I'm NOT the best rider in the world, either.  But... when I whack the throttle... THAT is what I wish to happen.  A 'slow reacting' bike is NOT one that I would wish to pass a semi on RT 33 in WV... for sure.   I find Wizzard's posts on this highly insulting... HE can pick better than the owner...   Lord help me if he gets to pick on ME if I ever need O2 or have a colostomy.   THAT impacts my wish to pass a vehicle how??

[Mr. Wizard]

As far a Wizzard goes... that is crazy to detune a bike.   But... throttle plate action ect isn't really a detune.  Doc, etc recommend that be kept in play anyways.  As long as the VEs are correct, etc for the bike, then things like TP isn't an issue.   But..... if folks make the power and rideability of the bike less than perfect as possible... they need to stop.  Tail end of boomers means what?  Im 55 and right in the middle of that generation and that means wizzard is early 40's.  He thinks me, since I AM a boomer needs my bike detuned?  Thats so much BS I cannot stand it.   I'm saving for a 117 or a 120R right now.  NO detunes there either.   Most folks ride within reason, and do NOT use all power available.  I had a 2008 Z06.  NO WAY could one utilize THAT on the streets... but I DID do track days at my old age.   I want MORE power to HAVE IT!  It's how I am wired.  I simply do NOT over ride the bike.  I'm NOT the best rider in the world, either.  But... when I whack the throttle... THAT is what I wish to happen.  A 'slow reacting' bike is NOT one that I would wish to pass a semi on RT 33 in WV... for sure.   I find Wizzard's posts on this highly insulting... HE can pick better than the owner...   Lord help me if he gets to pick on ME if I ever need O2 or have a colostomy.   THAT impacts my wish to pass a vehicle how??

btw... there is only one Z in Wizard. I was also street racing in the early 70's and I too am 55 but I've grown up.

You don't find me coming here and bashing a poster, that's not my style. ''No one can make you feel inferior without your consent''. -Eleanor Roosevelt

Before I work with someone on a tune I get to know them and their riding style. If they don't want the throttle so perky then I "detune" it. I know how my wife rides and she doesn't like to be flipped off the bike so I take the edge off of the bottom end. I also don't come here posting some of the abortions that some of the so called pro tuners sell to their unsuspecting clients. Lastly, hardly no one can do a worse job than Harley does with their stock tunes but they don't sputter, cough or hesitate from the factory nor do they when I assist someone.

Have a Merry Christmas everyone.

[Jeffd]

I have been on a lot of high strung bikes but never one so high strung I could not control the throttle enough to keep from being flipped off, while I guess I have been flipped off but not off the bike lol.

[Mr. Wizard]

I have been on a lot of high strung bikes but never one so high strung I could not control the throttle enough to keep from being flipped off, while I guess I have been flipped off but not off the bike lol.

LOL... several years ago when she got her first Dyna she lost her right hand on the throttle grip when leaving, lucky it wasn't the left or she would have gone flying through the bushes. Ever since then she has been very cautious but doesn't like the throttle to be so sensitive. He too is mid 50's and her hand strength is only adequate. She loves to ride on her own bike and the best thing I can do is make it so she enjoys the opportunity and the experience as long as she can. 

[wurk_truk]

I can agree with the TP (throttle progressivity [sp]), as I did in my above post.

Also, as stated... Doc says to KEEP the TP active... for this very reason.

But profiling for a tune seems really kind of??

But, except for 911 rides... I ride by myself or one or two folks... must be a REASON for that!  HAHA!!!

[Mr. Wizard]

I can agree with the TP (throttle progressivity [sp]), as I did in my above post.

Also, as stated... Doc says to KEEP the TP active... for this very reason.

But profiling for a tune seems really kind of??

But, except for 911 rides... I ride by myself or one or two folks... must be a REASON for that!  HAHA!!!

I really enjoy working with people and it seems to me the more they understand the process of what can and shouldn't be done the best rider experience they will have. Am I different, maybe, but when I help someone tune their bike there is a smile and gratitude afterward even friendships that have formed. That's just something that can't be done when cranking tunes out the door..... or can it? Should there be a few minutes spent with the customer before the tuning process? I remember a restaurant we go from time to time, the table we usually sit at is great! It's over a river on a cliff and the evening view is tremendous...  the food sucks or is adequate at best but we still think it's the greatest place ever and we return with our $$$$.

Sorry this has gotten so far off topic guys.... I'll try to sneak out the back door again.


-wiz