Another tuner coming to market

[06roadglide]

Superchips Vigilante Harley-Davidson Tuning Solution

Anyone see or here much about this one.  Looks to be released after the V-twin Expo.

It is a Flash tuning device, offers live tuning, wide band 02's, adjustments for DBW lag, able to switch between 2 tune's on the fly.


BUT...............if it's anything like my Coretex tuner on my truck I wont like it much.

[wurk_truk]

The more tuning options, the better for all of us.  Dynojet's new one, and this, show that the market is moving towards flashing the existing ECM, and that fuelers and add ons will be a thing of the past.

Kinda like the car market a few years ago.  2003, I had to 'chip' my Lightning.  By 06, I could use LSEdit, etc. on the vert and the Z06.

Truck tuners changed the way GM does warranty.  Boost a diesel up a bunch and crap breaks.  Use a tuner on a Z06 and get more power, too.  Starting in 09, GM started a ZERO tolerance policy change.  They can tell if the ECM has EVER been overwritten.  If it was..........  drivetrain warranty went away instantly.

Eventually MOCO will use the same technology to catch folks 'flashing back to stock', and I say GOOD for the MOCO.  Flashing to stock is stealing.

[Jeffd]

It will be interesting to know if the moco can tell if the ecm has ever been reflashed even if the stock map is reinstalled.  My buddy roasted his big dodge's tranny because he was using a power chip and Dodge denied his warranty because they were able to tell it had been super chipped.  Dodges claim was tranny was rated to handle X amount of power and the chip surpassed that amount.  He fought it and lost and it was only a couple months old at the time.

[TXP]

Moco can already tell if ecm has been flashed. This is not new. Moco has been VERY lenient so far on the tuning issue. The only exceptions I'm aware of are obvious ridiculously bad tunes leading to other issues and ecm failures due to add on devices. I for one hope this doesn't change. If you have an engine issue and are asked if your bike has been 'race tuned', answer truthfully. They are going to find out anyway if they pay and if your caught in an out and out lie your done and that is as it should be. I have seen MANY exceptions made for customers with quite a few mods but each situation is different and will be judged on a case by case basis.

[HV]

Your more likely to have a dealer crap on you if you do a lot of Mods and leave a stock Flash in it ...then at least try to tune it ...  BTW you bring a bike in with a no name flash # in it and the ECM is toast .... guess who's gonna Pay ? 

As for the new tuner...its interesting...Id like to know more..... where are the flashes available ? any charge for new ones ? any way to update online ?

[Coyote]

I'm actually amazed HD, MasterTune and others are still using a hardware dongle to secure their intellectual property. Seems like it's poor security and a waste of resources considering this could easily be secured and activated across the internet. (That's how I secure my company's optionally purchased software items).

Most dongle devices don't have the resources (hardware wise) to make them very secure. I can't count how many I've reverse engineered in the past. I think the reason they don't have more issues is because, for 200-300 bucks, it's not worth the effort. Regardless, nowadays, there is no need for the extra piece of programming hardware.

It'll be interesting to see where it all goes.

[Hogflash]

Actually, a hardware dongle is much more secure than just software running on a PC.  There are many very sophisticated PC debuggers available that enable reverse engineering PC software.  A hardware dongle, depending on the embedded processor used, can be very difficult to break into, and requires knowing assembly language and how the on-chip peripherals operate to understand its operation.  Doable, but requires a good deal of specialized knowledge and effort.

Also, newer low cost embedded processors have a surprising amount of capability, considerably more than early PCs.  They are capable of decent level of encryption, should the software require that.  Most have protection mechanisms that make it almost impossible to access their internal code.

Also, a hardware dongle of some sort is needed to translate the low-level diagnostic bus protocols to something the PC can deal with, such as USB or serial data.  So, as long as you are doing the translation, might as well add other features such as security.

If done correctly, it is not possible for the MOCO to track if a ECM has been programmed and returned to stock.  That said, it is possible to add hardware or make the ECM software more secure such that this could be tracked.  Will MOCO pay the additional cost to do this?  your guess is as good as mine.

--Gary

[Coyote]

Actually, a hardware dongle is much more secure than just software running on a PC.  There are many very sophisticated PC debuggers available that enable reverse engineering PC software.  A hardware dongle, depending on the embedded processor used, can be very difficult to break into, and requires knowing assembly language and how the on-chip peripherals operate to understand its operation.  Doable, but requires a good deal of specialized knowledge and effort.

Also, newer low cost embedded processors have a surprising amount of capability, considerably more than early PCs.  They are capable of decent level of encryption, should the software require that.  Most have protection mechanisms that make it almost impossible to access their internal code.

Also, a hardware dongle of some sort is needed to translate the low-level diagnostic bus protocols to something the PC can deal with, such as USB or serial data.  So, as long as you are doing the translation, might as well add other features such as security.

If done correctly, it is not possible for the MOCO to track if a ECM has been programmed and returned to stock.  That said, it is possible to add hardware or make the ECM software more secure such that this could be tracked.  Will MOCO pay the additional cost to do this?  your guess is as good as mine.

--Gary

Hmm, well, I've been in the software
/ hardware business for 28 years now. Owned a tech company for the last 18 years. I probably have it wrong. Still, I don't need a hardware dongle to access my bank account. They probably got it wrong too.  Even the very expensive cad tools we use stopped using dongles 10 years ago. They probably got it wrong too. 

We do this every day. With the connectivity we have now days, I'll secure my products with a link back to the mother ship over any other technology without a second thought. Plus, if my customers don't pay their bills, one click and their ill gotten bootie is useless.

[yositime]

Yeah there are several effective ways to skin that cat, and several ways that have surprising simple flaws that make them easy to break. So the internet is down and you're dead in the water? Seems short sighted.

Regardless, we just can't take the chance of exposing our most important stuff to the internet so we won't use products that require authorization or manage licenses via the web. I hate the very few companies that insist on doing it that way as there could be a couple useful products we can't use without a hassle. Somewhat arrogant, IMHO. We do use RSA tokens to help protect access to our less important information...  but information that is more important than most bank accounts. 

[Dennis The Menace]

Internet down?  Never-- but your connection to it, possible.  That can be addressed with  proper engineering--its a non-issue.

Securing data across the Internet is not as difficult as it sounds.  You need to know about security of data and systems.  Again, another non-issue, if you now what you are doing.

Dennis

[HogMike]

THANKS A LOT!!!

Now my head hurts!

I think I'll go change the advance curve in the old bike: change the distributor springs!

[Flat Dog]

I just wonder what effect this new DIY device trend will have on dyno tuners. Having real world info at your fingertips while riding in normal every day conditions just may put a good hurting on professional tuners. I saw something similar happen in another industry which used to require years of training. Then again, perhaps I am totally wrong.

[mayor]

Looks like an interesting system, but I don't think I'll be running out to replace the TTS on my DBW bike anytime soon because of it.  Perhaps I'm just not smart enough to know why some of the stated features are necessary.    Other than the wideband live tune option (which some would mention that aren't really widebands  ), I can't see the additional features it offers to be all that relevant.      It also appears that the basic "pick your map and flash" set-up isn't a whole lot different than what is currently available through TTS. 

Having real world info at your fingertips while riding in normal every day conditions just may put a good hurting on professional tuners.

I don't think this system will have much impact on pro-tuners.     I think there is a small percentage of HD owners who are willing to invest in the time to learn the basics of a good tune, let alone the more advanced details.   Plus, many folks just want the piece of mind knowing that the person tuning their bike has at least some sort of clue as to what they are doing.  The game changer will be when someone develops an all inclusive system that auto-tunes fuel and also auto-adjust timing, leaving nothing for the DYI'er to do but load the system.   

[Jeffd]

Any mention of cost?

[wurk_truk]

I truly doubt one could have any kind of auto timing feature anytime soon.  How would THAT be accomplished?  ION sensing?  Won't work.  NO ONE really knows optimal tuning on timing and it is ALL still theoretical.  Even for IndyCar, F1, and Nascar.  Best bet is to place a unit on a dyno and tune for the power, but even THAT may not be best timing.

So THAT (auto timing) is truly a pipe dream to many.

SuperChip USED to have a decent name, so maybe this will be a nice unit.  I see most tuners like this aimed at the Stage1 market anyways. As it should be.

[Flat Dog]

Mayor, I do believe you are correct. These devices will make a decent 'generic' tune easier, but will not replace a real professional with years of experience.

[Sam45]

real professional tuners out of business.  really and how many are going to be out of business?  I hope it puts all the generic tuners who think they are professionals out of business.  its all you read over and over and over people getting screwed over by tuner people.  good for us I will take a decent 'generic' tune made easier.

[BVHOG]

If nothing else it's one more option and competition is always beneficial to the consumer.  I would be interested to hear how you can swap mapping on the fly when it is a flash tune system. None of these systems are about to run anyone out of business, the average Joe doesn't wan't to know all the BS we talk about on these forums, they just want their bike running at it's best.

[HV]

If nothing else it's one more option and competition is always beneficial to the consumer.  I would be interested to hear how you can swap mapping on the fly when it is a flash tune system. None of these systems are about to run anyone out of business, the average Joe doesn't wan't to know all the BS we talk about on these forums, they just want their bike running at it's best.

[/color]


Thats a Fact .... of probably 100 Customers last summer that bought SESPTs ... I would say 3 or 4 even attempted a Smart Tune ...most just load a map and ride... 5 or 6 had Dyno Tunes done....... as for any that get close to the in depth info on here perhaps 1 

[Jamie Long]

If nothing else it's one more option and competition is always beneficial to the consumer.  I would be interested to hear how you can swap mapping on the fly when it is a flash tune system. None of these systems are about to run anyone out of business, the average Joe doesn't wan't to know all the BS we talk about on these forums, they just want their bike running at it's best.

I talked pretty in depth with Superchips at SEMA with the individual heading up the Viginante, and when they have finished product they are going to send me one to test. It has some pretty nice features, I believe the live map switching they are speaking of will actually switch to an alternate Lambda/AFR table, it does not actually switch/reflash the calibration. 

[1FSTRK]

If nothing else it's one more option and competition is always beneficial to the consumer.  I would be interested to hear how you can swap mapping on the fly when it is a flash tune system. None of these systems are about to run anyone out of business, the average Joe doesn't wan't to know all the BS we talk about on these forums, they just want their bike running at it's best.

[/color]


Thats a Fact .... of probably 100 Customers last summer that bought SESPTs ... I would say 3 or 4 even attempted a Smart Tune ...most just load a map and ride... 5 or 6 had Dyno Tunes done....... as for any that get close to the in depth info on here perhaps 1 

I think these two quotes contradict each other. Do you really believe that 90 of those bikes truly had the best possible tune with a flashed map? They may have no idea how much better the bike would run once tuned

[mayor]

.... of probably 100 Customers last summer that bought SESPTs ... I would say 3 or 4 even attempted a Smart Tune ...most just load a map and ride... 5 or 6 had Dyno Tunes done....... as for any that get close to the in depth info on here perhaps 1 

I think these two quotes contradict each other. Do you really believe that 90 of those bikes truly had the best possible tune with a flashed map? They may have no idea how much better the bike would run once tuned

I don't think HV was suggesting that the 9 out of 10 bikes ran the best with a flashed map, just that about 9 out of 10 people was satisfied enough not to spend more time or money in persuit of a better tune.  I believe there is value in a good tune (as I am sure HV does as well), but the problem comes in of how to describe in quantitative numbers how a proper "tune" will affect someone. Unless someone recognizes a tuning problem that's causing issues with their bike, most folks just feel that the bike is running good enough with a flash that they don't need a tune (keep in mind, I'm not advocating this mindset).  Most of the time, there's only one measurement that is done during the process (wot) and there's no way of guaranteeing the improvements that one might see in that area on paper prior to the tune.  All other benefits could be seen as theoretical to the consumer, and most do not want to pony up their cash on the faith that they will notice a difference.  Even with this mindset, I'm still amazed that more folks aren't v-tuning or smart tuning their bikes.     My guess is it's the fear of messing something up....

[1FSTRK]

I don't think HV was suggesting that the 9 out of 10 bikes ran the best with a flashed map, just that about 9 out of 10 people was satisfied enough not to spend more time or money in persuit of a better tune.  I believe there is value in a good tune (as I am sure HV does as well), but the problem comes in of how to describe in quantitative numbers how a proper "tune" will affect someone. Unless someone recognizes a tuning problem that's causing issues with their bike, most folks just feel that the bike is running good enough with a flash that they don't need a tune (keep in mind, I'm not advocating this mindset).  Most of the time, there's only one measurement that is done during the process (wot) and there's no way of guaranteeing the improvements that one might see in that area on paper prior to the tune.  All other benefits could be seen as theoretical to the consumer, and most do not want to pony up their cash on the faith that they will notice a difference.  Even with this mindset, I'm still amazed that more folks aren't v-tuning or smart tuning their bikes.     My guess is it's the fear of messing something up....

Fair enough. I guess that I misunderstood

[Steve Cole]

We've always told everyone that Vtune will get you 85% of a complete tune but if you want to spend the time the tools are there to allow you to get it all. We thought that most would use this to help them get a better tune but I cannot say how many people have called us and said " my bike runs great with just a base calibration, should I still Vtune?" So it's really upto each person as to what they are looking for. On the other hand I have seen way to many people chasing a couple HP that they think they should have that they do not, so it goes both ways.

[Dennis The Menace]

Steve, your comments are right on.

While you wouldnt expect someone to come to this topic and say all they want is a canned map and its good enough, there are riders out there like that, as Brian stated.  A lot of them.  Maybe they dont know they arene getting 100% out of their configuration, or dont care.  Maybe good enough, is "good enough".

There are others who want to work with the tuners and maps and data runs and tweak their cals to get the best they can get, limited by their experience or abilities or even lack of a dyno or good place to ride to gather data.

And, there are those who want to micro adjust and tweak every cell at every MAP value to try and wring out that last little drop from their motor.

IMO, each of these types of riders are right.  If it works for them, then cool.  And, I have been someone who fit every one of these types of riders I just described.  But, now I am back to the "good enough" category, because I found myself going for rides to tune the bike or gather data, rather than just enjoying the ride and forgetting lifes cares.  I lost sight of the fun of riding, by trying to get a perfect running bike.  Damn, was I am idiot!

Dennis