New Tuner - Rev Performance Precision EMS Wide Band Unit

[hotroadking]

Some good reports from a few people on other sites

Link to Product

You will get two wide band O2 sensors and 
an add-on module that allows the wide bands
to be calibrated and connected to the ECM

Your ECM must be sent to them for modifications
to allow the Rev Perf to hook up to the ECM tuner.

Click here for install Video

Looks like a simple install and they basically load
a base map, then the bike uses wide band sensors
to monitor and report.

Not much other detail yet, not sure how you can set
Idle, speedo settings, timing etc...
However here is a link to some FAQ's



[attachment removed after 60 days by system]

[HV]

Wow Dennis made the Headlines... 

[Don D]

I have installed it on my 117". I am the ultimate skeptic and have to say I was amazed at how well it works and how fast it learned. So far so good. This is my own bike so I don't care about dyno numbers all that much but will spool it up just for a test. All I know at this point is I like it now and the trouble spots I had are no longer there and I now don't have to worry about road tuning a 130ft/lb bike which I was not looking forward to.

[TXP]

Is this a Daytona Twin Tec developed product? It sure bears a resemblance to the Twin Tuner. There are only a few manufacturers who design and produce these products. The Zippers T-Max is actually a Thunderheart made product. Just wondering..

[Don D]

Heck no
This is a reprogrammed OEM Delphi ECU with an interface box to run wide bands.

[Jeffd]

That would actually be the perfect tuner for a computer dummy like me.  I just wished you could use stock 2010-11 headers without changing the bungs.

[Don D]

How do you know you can't? I don't know the answer.

[TXP]

I noticed they were reprograming the ECM and was reviewing the installation pdf. on the RevPerf website and noticed they made reference to free air calibration, and the appearance of the controller resembled a DTT product. It just looked like Chris Shroeder's handywork. Even if they are unrelated it does look similar to a DTT WEGO device to me. Keep us posted as to how it performs, always interested in new products.

[TXChop]

Don, did you talk to brian about what afr's it tunes to or which timing tables? Was just curious.I am sure it varies by the base map they install in the ecm. I think it sounds like a great system, but leaves no door open IF there is a pinging, heat, mileage, idle, warm up, tinker, issues...

[TXP]

The I-Sheet indicates the use of 09 headers or welding in bungs for 2010-11 Bagger models.

[Ken R]

Heck no
This is a reprogrammed OEM Delphi ECU with an interface box to run wide bands.

I wonder how stable the sensors' free-air adjust trimpots are going to be over time in real-world heat and vibration environments.  My WEGO-II seem to be stable, but I only have 10 - 20 hours of actual run-time on 'em.  (rechecked the calibration between runs and my sensors didn't require any additional tweaking; but that was only after a few  hours of playing).

This uses their canned ignition maps?  If "Timing is Everything" (and I've seen a lot of timing maps and discussions here on the forum); wouldn't advanced users want a gateway into the ECM for timing adjustment, etc?  TTS, Direct Link, and others have a lot more capability than just tuning VEs. 

I wonder if this will evolve into a system in which the ECM can be accessed and flashed by the end user like the other tuning packages.  I think I'd want the ability to record and view the results of the self tuning, correct my speedo, play with the timing tables, etc.   

Their video library is informative. 

Ken

[Jeffd]

That would actually be the perfect tuner for a computer dummy like me.  I just wished you could use stock 2010-11 headers without changing the bungs.

I inqured on thier web site and the responded that the wide band sensors needed to be located differently like on the 09 pipes.

[Ken R]

That would actually be the perfect tuner for a computer dummy like me.  I just wished you could use stock 2010-11 headers without changing the bungs.

Jeff, that's the main reason I replaced my headers with the Fuel Moto headers that use the stock heat shields and eliminate the catalytic converter.  They have auxillary O2 bungs already in place . . . two sets of bungs, one for the narrow-band and another set for wide band.  That gives me a lot of flexibility. 

[Don D]

I went into this thing skeptical and quite frankly I have no heating issues or pinging. I really have to evaluate the product as a consumer that wants a good running bike and it passes. Sure maybe in some cases a dyno tune may make a few more HP but I didn't care. I had low speed tip in issues that are gone. I just dummy up and ride and port heads.

[TXChop]

Don, was it the slight opening of the throttle jerking from a low speed(5mph) cruise?

Like i said, think its nice, but a door in the system with some basic adjustments seems like a nice option as well??

[TXChop]

I am just thinking worst case scenario btw...I am sure you could send the ecm back if needed.

[Dennis The Menace]

Brian answered a lot of detailed questions on another site about this product, and hope he joins in here.  He does have a HTT account (revperf).

He indicated that nothing is done to the ECM that would look any different to a HD tech at a dealer.  It will not, therefore, void the warranty of the system, like a Tmax might.  They use your stock ECM, for 2005 and up bikes.  2004 bike just needs a 2005-up ECM, which they sell cheap.

One can still use a TTS or SERT/SEPST to tune the bike, it desired.  You would just pull off teh WB O2s and go back to stock O2s, and remove teh box inline with the O2s.  You are then back to stock and can tune with whatever product you use.

This is meant to be a product for riders that just want to set it and forget it.  Its not for those who want to fiddle with settings and tweaks.  Its a closed system in that respect.  But, it is a better setup than a stock HD download, as Revperf has a huge database of dyno'ed maps to load to get you a very close tune to start with.  The input from the WB O2's and their tweaks allow them to do whatever it is they do to give a great running bike.

So, while it may seem a canned map, its going to be very close to what your setup needs.  They ask a lot of detailed questions about your motor setup to get the best map loaded from day one. 

When I first fired the bike after install, it immediately ran smoother at idle, which I was having a lot of problems with.  It only got even better as it dialed in the 5 minute calibration it needs to adapt to the bike.  After that, it was just go ride the snot out it.  It ran better than it did with the SEPST tune I had before installing, especially idle and low rpm cruise (which I never could get tuned right with the SEPST).

Caveat--I am NOT a tuning guy in any fashion, and I presume that a tuner program  (TTS, SEPST) in the hands of a competent tuner would yield better results.  But, for a closed system, IMO this will beat anything the MoCo offers as a "download".  That is the sweet spot for this product, IMO.

Hope this helps.

Dennis

[hotroadking]

Dennis JMO that is the "market" for tuning in the HD world

While there are several of us self induced masochist would be tuners
out there thinking we can pull off  the "ultimate" power increase
in reality a huge segment of the HD just isn't into that much work
They don't know the particulars of how to adjust timing and JMO
for the most part they want to load n go....

[revperf]

Gentlemen,

Thanks for the interest in our product!  The free air calibration of the interpreter box is now pre-done before any of the systems leave and the pots are sealed.  Some are still on the Drag Specialties shelves that need it but those are the last.  They can be accessed for future adjustment if necessary but have not required it to date.  The reason we load the base map in is really more customer service to completely eliminate customers having to hunt and hunt for something close.  We just pull from our database (which is extensive) and get you where you need to be and then commence with the re-calibration of the firmware (that we must do anyway) from there.  That way the initial start-up is seamless.  Honestly, the original base map is really only there until the system goes adaptive anyway.  This is done as soon as the bike gets to (depending on outside temp) half operating temperature in about 5 minutes.  Then the process is essentially real-time from that point on.  We do wish that the '10 and up bikes had the bungs for the wide bands in them from the factory.  The aftermarket has obviously helped us out but we try to help customers by providing the service here for $50.00 plus the bungs.  That way we can Tig them in and then vacuum check the pipes for leaks.  More than one system has been sent out in a box big enough for customers to ship their head pipes when they ship the ECM.  We generally knock them out in a couple days.  Whenever we are on-site at the rallies this coming year doing installs we will have the welder on site and can take care of it then also.  A question was asked about the AFR settings that we use.  The numbers are 13-13.2 at idle, 14-14.2 at low load cruise, and 12.5-12.8 for WOT.  These are the bulk of the builds but there are some larger or smaller engines that we may tweak these values just a bit but not much.  These are the values that, +/- a couple tenths of an AFR, 99% of the tuners are shooting for anyway.  We can also install an AFR value that the customer desires as long as the value is not out in left field and could potentially hurt the engine.    As far as timing tables go, we spent over a year gathering data from different builds (displacement, CR, exhaust, etc.) around the country from CO to AZ to Vegas, to Florida and then Southern CA. to build an extensive database.   We then sort the appropriate table for the engine based on an algorithmic process and let the firmware do the rest.  So it isn't really a canned timing map per se'.  The computing power to do this really exists guys.  It really does.  The toughest thing we have had to deal with going forward with this product has been skepticism until people have tried it.  Once they do it sells itself.  Listen, I have said it before, TTS, T-Max, PC are all great products in their own rites and are extremely well thought out, powerful tools.  This product was not developed for people who want to tune their own bike or take and have it professionally tuned or ride it for a relatively extensive period of time to let it adjust the tables.  This is a rider’s product for a rider’s market.  Sorry for the long post and I have tried not to “sell” too much and just answer questions.  Please feel free to call on our dime at any time 866-892-2109.  I respect the board moderators and don’t want to get in hot water!

Brian

[Jeffd]

Are you going to be at Sturgis?

[revperf]

Yessir.

[hotroadking]

Daytona? if so where?

[revperf]

Yes to Daytona.  As of today Destination Daytona (Rossmeyer's).

[strokerjlk]

A question was asked about the AFR settings that we use.  The numbers are 13-13.2 at idle, 14-14.2 at low load cruise, and 12.5-12.8 for WOT.

forgive me if it is in plain black and white,on your website. it has been a while since I read the particulars.
so my question is ....when you say 14-14.2 cruise, is this a closed loop area? or are you shooting for 14-14.2 open loop? seems like logic would tell me it is all open loop since you are most likely using Bosch LSU4 sensors to collect data.  so in a nut shell do you /consumer collect data with a LSU4 ,log it, and then you take the data and apply this to a open loop map.
another question..... it sounded as if some of the testimonies I have read were indicating that the bikes were running better,just installing the system and riding it.
I dont see how this could be possible,other than a canned map that you installed was a improvement over whatever they had in the ECU to begin with, because  the ECU goes back to you for the process of computing data and reprogramming the ECU. is this correct?
so basically I want to know is it a all open loop tune? after you reprogram the ECU ,does the LSU'S stay out and the bike is ran ,until a need arises to re tune?
or is it closed loop and the factory sensors go back in after the reprogram by you?
or... bear with me.... are you using the LSU'S to try and maintain a closed loop system?
when you say 14.0 is possible in cruise, I just dont see how that can be maintained in closed loop.
not that all open loop is a bad thing...IMO

[BVHOG]

The question I have is can the bike still be data logged by systems such at the twinscan or a digital tech to troubleshoot should problems arise in the various sensor outputs?

[oldguy]

The question I have is can the bike still be data logged by systems such at the twinscan or a digital tech to troubleshoot should problems arise in the various sensor outputs?

I don't see why not - the connector for data logging is still free after hooking up the precision unit, and the ecu function remains the same as stock.

[BVHOG]

Found my answer to the data logging question in the FAQ's, the other question I have is are the other ecm features like Power enrichment mode and ion knock sensing still active?  Who sets the rev limit?

[revperf]

Found my answer to the data logging question in the FAQ's, the other question I have is are the other ecm features like Power enrichment mode and ion knock sensing still active?  Who sets the rev limit?

BV,

Glad you found your answer.  We are constantly updating the FAQ's so if there is ever something that needs to be there we will gladly add it.  BTW, to others, the answer is yes to the TwinScan and Digital Tech with regards to data and/or DTC collection and clearance.  The question regarding the PE mode and Ion Knock Sensing is a bit more complicated than just yes.  The PE mode is still active but is re-configured to a fail safe rather than a potential power hampering feature.  In other words, yes it is there, but it will not manifest itself as a negative in, say, a dyno pull or a quarter mile pass.  The knock sensing is also still active, but again, is configured in such a way as to not allow it to just pull and pull timing in a "runaway" fashion.  I guess to sum it up, all the features that are a good thing are there.  They are just manipulated in such a way as to be as purely beneficial as they possibly can.  The rev limit is set by us at the time of ECM modification.  We set the limiter to 6500 unless we are notified by the customer that he/she would like something different.  If you want something higher or lower it is easily accommodated. 

Brian

[wurk_truk]

I'm wondering about the open loop mode, also.  I, also, don't feel open loop is a bad thing.

[revperf]

Stroker,

Thanks for the question.  Our product is a dynamic, adaptive, wide-band closed loop system.  When we shoot for 14.0-14.2 AFR at cruise we are using feedback from the wide-band O2 sensors, as well as other inputs, to automatically tune the motorcycle to that AFR value.  Think of our system as acting just like the stock closed loop system with the narrow band O2 sensors with the exception that we are using wide band sensors which lets us control AFR precisely over the entire operation range of the motorcycle, not just a small area.  This is why there are many testimonials as to bikes running much better right from the start.  Because the system can identify and correct for AFR shifts throughout the rpm and load range almost instantly; this system has benefited many customers with bikes with unstable idles, tip in complaints, and AFR instabilities in the light load cruise range that can be very hard to tune.  Because the system is constantly levelizing the VE tables in the background for the environment that the bike is operating in, the open loop tables can be accessed instantly should the closed loop feedback become skewed beyond what the ECM recognizes as a normal operating parameter.  Again, all these things can be accomplished with systems like the TTS and others.  We are just trying to provide a product for people who do not want to tune the bike themselves but still want comparable results in a plug and play fashion.  There was another question regarding the wide-band sensors remaining installed in the vehicle.  Yes, this is a dynamic system and the wide-band O2 sensors are continuously being used to check and adjust the state of tune of the vehicle.  The OEM sensors are no longer used.  The next question, a lot of times, is “Well, what if they fail?”  The answer to this is that if you should fail a sensor then the ECM will sense it and will revert into an open loop fail-safe mode and carry on until you replace the sensor.  As soon as you do it will go adaptive once again and you are on your way.     

Brian

[eddfive]

Is there a Utility or procedure with this system to "free air" calibrate the LSU sensors?

[TXChop]

Ed..There is an adjustment pot for it/them. Brain said they calibrate them at the time of packaging. If they need to be done again, you can just like a twin scan+.

Brian do you have any afr charts from dyno testing to share. I saw the one dyno on your site, but thats all i have seen.

Also, i read on another forum it runs in open loop(from the base map) on hard acceleration, rapid decel and cold idle, is that correct?

[TXChop]

[Don D]

Good questions chop I don't know about open VS closed loop. I suspect the O2 s are being used all the time. Brian will answer I am sure.
A while back somebody mentioned the DTT Wego system. Even though the hardware is completely differant (except the sensors) the premise is similar, but much more sophisticated as speed density and ion sensing are there to help the learning process. It needs widebands to tune to the target WOT AFR range. It uses all the Delphi features and they are reprogramed to work and are leveraged to benefit of a performance platform and offer a fairly wide window of adaptability to learn after mods are made, if not extreme such as a major motor size change. Same for the timing. The adaptive features are used to learn and pull back to safe but not huge amounts more and not in a choppy fashion that can affect rideability. All of these features are in the Delphi but not programed to work in this fashion with the stock or aftermarket tuners or in some cases they are programed in the same manor but the adaptive features are lower tier. This is my understanding of the product based on several conversations with Brian.
I calibrated the free air and it was as simple as falling out of bed. Took all of 1 minute then I covered the pots with tape.

[Jamie Long]

Brian, it is stated the the system can adjust for +/- 20% variance in displacement without changing the calibration and that you can use the same calibration for a stock 96" motor as a 103" Stage II build although there are very different requirements for both combinations from an airflow model and igntion timing standpoint. There are big differences in VE's based on just a cam swap on a 96" motor, and when changing the displacement, compression ratio, and cams there are huge differences in not only VE, but igntion timing requirements and several other aspects of the calibration. With that being said how large % wise are the actual AFV's window of adjustment in the EMS calibration?

[revperf]

Chop,

Essentially you are right with regards to the open loop during these particular areas but it is only for a specific period of time and then system reverts to closed loop.

Jamie,

I understand, with you being in your line of work, how you might have questions and/or concerns about how it would be possible for this to happen and what the percentage of swing that the system can handle vs. some of the products that you carry.  Dan Thompson with Hotshot Motorworks voiced exactly the same skeptism when he installed our system on his bone stock (not even an AC kit) 2009 96" 'Glide.  He just got back from a round trip to Florida with the engine built now as a 103", .615" cams, 10.5:1CR, big valve ported heads, and a full aftermarket exhaust.  The system took about 5-8 minutes from initial start up to dial itself in to the new combination and got well over 40mpg two up there and back.  Without getting into proprietary areas, and given your experience, the information that I supplied about this real-world execution of the product should answer your questions about it's capabilities.  Make no mistake, it does have it's limitations but we make every effort to insulate the customer from that happening.  Also, when in doubt about whether or not it can handle a particular scenario just pick up the phone and call our toll free number.


Brian

[sportygordy]

I noticed they were reprograming the ECM and was reviewing the installation pdf. on the RevPerf website and noticed they made reference to free air calibration, and the appearance of the controller resembled a DTT product. It just looked like Chris Shroeder's handywork. Even if they are unrelated it does look similar to a DTT WEGO device to me. Keep us posted as to how it performs, always interested in new products.

Yes it does look like his work... i know he was working on something last year to go HTH, then decided he did not like the liability issues messing the the DBW stuff and kind of side tracked it.... (got a few friends in Daytona that kind of kept track of this) Maybe this is his way of 'bringining it on' If Chris's hands are in it,, it's got to be good stuff  pretty sure Chris is on this board (?? alias) and speaks quite often wonder if he would if he will discuss... I don't think so,,,Darn,,, ... Just speculating folks... 

[Don D]

It creates a slipery slope to assume DTT had any connection to this product and my assumption is no such connection, and quite frankly I don't care what the behind the scenes is, I have a owner rider hat on and from that vantage point the product has been very good for me so far. I will report more when the snow melts.

[revperf]

No slippery slope at all.  When we went looking for an O2 interpreter interface we wanted three things.  American made (rather spend our money here than send it over the pond), quality components and a proven system.  Chris Schroeder is a great engineer and we have used this piece for years in our dyno lab and they were willing to manufacture it to our specs.  No different than Thunderheart Performance working with the T-Max system and building their components for them.

Brian

[Ken R]

It creates a slipery slope to assume DTT had any connection to this product and my assumption is no such connection, and quite frankly I don't care what the behind the scenes is, I have a owner rider hat on and from that vantage point the product has been very good for me so far. I will report more when the snow melts.

This thread is really interesting.  I'm really pleased that Brian takes the time to answer all the questions on this very public forum.  This is a tough audience with a lot of people that tune for a living (as well as those that market competing products).  Kudos to Brian.  I've also been going through his podcasts, one by one.  I'm just a very inquisitive end user. 

I'd like to see a VE table comparison between a motor that has been self-tuned with this product and then a typical wide band sensor dyno tune.  Or at least see a graph with a sensed AFR compared to the command to see how they track. 

If one wanted to tinker with timing or other parameters via one of the other ECM gateway products, would this product adjust the VEs accordingly?

[FLTRI]

If one wanted to tinker with timing or other parameters via one of the other ECM gateway products, would this product adjust the VEs accordingly?

Ken,
Since the ECM is reprogrammed with a revperf calibration, using another recalibration software to make any changes would overwrite the revperf calibration therefore nullifying any and all changes made by the revperf system...ie: the closed loop operation using broadband sensors.
I'm certain you could send your ECM back to revperf and they will make timing, etc changes for you. Would be interesting to know if there would be a charge for this/
Bob
PS - Thanks to Brian for offering his time and tech answers.

[revperf]

Bob,

No charge for the touch-up if necessary.  If it is an upgrade such as the customer has built a big motor outside the parameters of the original cal or made an injector change to a different set then still no charge except for the freight. 

Brian

[Don D]

I think this product has the potential to be a game changer. It does deliver what others have promised the proverbial "self tuner". The groundwork has been laid but there has really not been that product yet. Closest may be the Tmax and guys are tweaking that all the time as they are the others. The forums become the best support for some of these products and experienced users input. Being that this is a paradigm shift I think the want and need to have access and tinker is best forgotten or the product has not achieved the goal of a "self tuner".

Got to ask can I get on the bike and ride and forget issues and it is fun to ride, gets acceptable mileage, accelerates smoothly, has good throttle response and manors, and doesn't ping or overheat?? Assuming the build has the right mechanical parameters to cooperate with the software then this product has achieved success. The HP and TQ need to be somewhat close to optimum but I would not expect that every time when compared to a custom tune done by some of the best tuners around the country. If you have to spend hours on the net and have a bunch of PMs with the more experienced users and have laptops out and all that or even send the ECU back several times which would be the case here then this product has failed.

I would expect guys that have competitors' products and investments or the vendors themselves to offer push-back (hopefully in a business like professional way) but really this is a parallel product not a 100% straight across the board replacement. There still is a place for the guy that wants a custom tune and use the product of choice for that. This is the "plug & play" device based on my limited experience with it.

[BVHOG]

Ok, one more question, it was stated that a tts type unit could still be used.  So, could a guy like Don for example that I happen to know still has a tts unit that produced less than satisfactory results still have any use with this system.
Lets say he has a roll on ping at 2250 rpm on a hot day, could the tts be used to change the timing only assuming the same base cal was used as the startup or does this system use a completely different type of starting cal that can only be adjusted by revperf.  BTW, from past experience, DTT has made some great products and has always treated me great when I needed customer service.  I do find it a bit hard to speak to him (Chris)at times as I don't think he realizes we don't all have the same level of computer/tuner knowledge as himself.

[FLTRI]

Bob,

No charge for the touch-up if necessary.  If it is an upgrade such as the customer has built a big motor outside the parameters of the original cal or made an injector change to a different set then still no charge except for the freight. 

Brian

Thanks Brian and  Happy New Year!!
Bob

[strokerjlk]

No slippery slope at all.  When we went looking for an O2 interpreter interface we wanted three things.  American made (rather spend our money here than send it over the pond), quality components and a proven system.  Chris Schroeder is a great engineer and we have used this piece for years in our dyno lab and they were willing to manufacture it to our specs.  No different than Thunderheart Performance working with the T-Max system and building their components for them.

Brian

I admire your honest here. get it out in the open. thanks.
In all my conversations with Chris,I have found him to be very knowledgeable, no BS,and brutally honest. Alan is a stand up guy in my book also.
Great product with great customer service/tech support.when a engineer gives you his cell phone number so you can reach him anytime,that speaks volumes to me.


Brian thanks for clearing up my questions.
one more.....could or can a user make the adjustment to select open loop,once the tune is finalised?
so really my question is . can I select a determined /targeted AFR. and once that is achieved,somehow disable the "learn" "AFV"? or if once the data is collected using your canned map,then the unit is sent back to you. could the consumer ask for a Desired AFR ,then you could use the data to configure a open loop map as requested? now when the unit is sent back to the user ,could the ECU be re flashed (open loop) and the sensors removed?
If the "Learn" of this system could work as described,IT WOULD BE A BIG HIT! my skepticism is fueled by the stock ECM closed loop system coupled with other aftermarket  tuners not always operating as described when the ECM is left in closed loop, allowing the AFV'S to remain active.
thanks for you answers to my previous questions.

OK I am going to make my next request. in talking with Chris in the past we have discussed this very technology.
I realise that by doing this type of venture your going to keep sort of a corner on the market, if it satisfies the consumers and always works as describes.
but I have wanted this type of system for dyno tuners to use. so is there a chance in the future you could market a version for dyno tuners to use having access to make the changes from this systems data, or from our methods of collecting data. because as we all know there is always going to be gains to be had, from using a dyno to determine what AFR and timing makes each and every build "happy" Thanks.

[Don D]

All good questions Jim
To clarify the "sliperly slope" statement what I meant is throwing the baby out with the bathwater so to speak. The DTT was not a satisfactory product for me and I worked hard to get it to work. The interface box however was flawless as is the Twin Scan I have used.

[Steve Cole]

You guys are mixing up terms and it does make a difference. One term is "Learning" while another term is "Adjusting" These are NOT one in the same in the ECM. Adjusting real time and learning real time are very different. So you can have one without the other, or both at the same time.

[BVHOG]

You guys are mixing up terms and it does make a difference. One term is "Learning" while another term is "Adjusting" These are NOT one in the same in the ECM. Adjusting real time and learning real time are very different. So you can have one without the other, or both at the same time.

So what do you think Steve, are the broadbands capable.............or not?

[lonewolf]

a tts unit that produced less than satisfactory results

It might not be the tool but the guy using it. Glad your bike is running better Don.

[Steve Cole]

You guys are mixing up terms and it does make a difference. One term is "Learning" while another term is "Adjusting" These are NOT one in the same in the ECM. Adjusting real time and learning real time are very different. So you can have one without the other, or both at the same time.

So what do you think Steve, are the broadbands capable.............or not?

This thread or post is about Brians new product not about what a broadband will or will not do. That subject has been gone over many times before and I think everyone knows where I stand on it. If your asking will the ECM work with a wide band or broad band sensor the answer is yes. It has been built into the HD ECM since 2005 and the code has been in place all along, just need to turn the switching sensor off and the wide bands on. Anyone every wonder why the O2 voltage range is what it is?

[BVHOG]

You guys are mixing up terms and it does make a difference. One term is "Learning" while another term is "Adjusting" These are NOT one in the same in the ECM. Adjusting real time and learning real time are very different. So you can have one without the other, or both at the same time.

So what do you think Steve, are the broadbands capable.............or not?

This thread or post is about Brians new product not about what a broadband will or will not do. That subject has been gone over many times before and I think everyone knows where I stand on it. If your asking will the ECM work with a wide band or broad band sensor the answer is yes. It has been built into the HD ECM since 2005 and the code has been in place all along, just need to turn the switching sensor off and the wide bands on. Anyone every wonder why the O2 voltage range is what it is?

That's interesting info, makes you wonder why it took so long for this technology to make it to market.

[revperf]

Stroker,

Everything evolves.  This process is by no means static and time will tell. 

BV,

Because, respectfully and as Steve has said repeatedly in the past with regards to some aspects of his own product, it is simply not as easy as flipping a bit and things work seamlessly.  This thread has been, so far, a great question and answer forum.  I really don't want to see it degrade into a back and forth about the merits of two manufacturer's products.  I have not, and will not go back and forth with an acidic "ours vs. theirs" dialogue regarding the inner workings of the different systems.  Especially Steve's.  As a manufacturer it would be classless to start a dialogue of “Okay guys, this is how they do it.” regardless of whether we know, think we know, or don’t know and being in the business as long as Steve has I know he feels the same way.  As I have said many times before, Steve has a great tuning product with a LOT of power behind it.  If you are tuning the bike yourself or if you are a professional tuner I highly endorse it.  If you don't then hopefully we can earn your business.  The world is a big place and there is plenty of room.   

Brian

[hotroadking]

Wow Civility in a tuner software thread LOL

Next you know we'll have a decent oil and
dyna beads thread here LOL

[strokerjlk]

Stroker,

Everything evolves.  This process is by no means static and time will tell.

ok I think I know what that means.
so can it be switched to all open loop if desired?

[TXP]

Thanks for answering my question about DTT involvement with your product Brian. When you've spent a lifetime in the industry you get to meet and know a lot of folks and become familiar with their work. In the fuel injection/ECM side of things there just aren't that many good reliable sources out there. Chris is one of those good reliable sources and will discuss any EFI issue with you at length at the shows. LOL,, that is if he senses you understand what he's talking about. He gets a little frustrated when he thinks you have no idea what he's saying and clams up. Sorry, but thats a funny thing to watch. He's really a good guy. It's really difficult for those few guys out there like Chris and Steve for example, who have a very advanced level of knowledge, to take a step back and try and translate that information to the general public or even "tuners" for that matter. Good luck with your new product, I'm sure there will be a market for it.

[Dennis The Menace]

Stroker, just my opinion, but if you have a EMS on your bike, you should be content to leave it alone.  If you still want to look at things or tweak some parameters, then in my opinion get a TTS or SESPT to make the mods you feel you need.  I had a EMS on my 07 RG because I didnt want to mess with anything anymore--just ride it and forget about it.

To me, EMS is like a HD download (only much better!) in that you set it, and forget it.  If you want to mess with anything, then get a product that lets you tune/adjust the bike how you wish.

However, its good to ask Brian questions here, or on the phone, to determine if they can mod the ECM to make it work better for you application.  But, its not a product that is intended for end user access/mods.

Absolutely nothing wrong with your question, and I hope I dont offend you with my answer.  Just trying to help others understand this product, as an early adopter.

Dennis

[BVHOG]

Stroker,

Everything evolves.  This process is by no means static and time will tell. 

BV,

Because, respectfully and as Steve has said repeatedly in the past with regards to some aspects of his own product, it is simply not as easy as flipping a bit and things work seamlessly.  This thread has been, so far, a great question and answer forum.  I really don't want to see it degrade into a back and forth about the merits of two manufacturer's products.  I have not, and will not go back and forth with an acidic "ours vs. theirs" dialogue regarding the inner workings of the different systems.  Especially Steve's.  As a manufacturer it would be classless to start a dialogue of “Okay guys, this is how they do it.” regardless of whether we know, think we know, or don’t know and being in the business as long as Steve has I know he feels the same way.  As I have said many times before, Steve has a great tuning product with a LOT of power behind it.  If you are tuning the bike yourself or if you are a professional tuner I highly endorse it.  If you don't then hopefully we can earn your business.  The world is a big place and there is plenty of room.   

Brian

No problem Brian, I have used the TTS many times myself and it is no doubt a great ecm access product.  But this threads about your new product so once again more questions. Since we have heard from others here that the broad band sensors are not compatible or accurate when used in a Harley application what would your reply to that be. We have heard that they do not operate accurately due to pressure and temp parameters being out of the Bosch specifications in this application. I will say that using them as a tuning tool I have never witnessed that or had any problems associated with this supposed issue. Is this anything to worry about with the various exhaust configurations that may be used for your system?

[strokerjlk]

Stroker, just my opinion, but if you have a EMS on your bike, you should be content to leave it alone.  If you still want to look at things or tweak some parameters, then in my opinion get a TTS or SESPT to make the mods you feel you need.  I had a EMS on my 07 RG because I didnt want to mess with anything anymore--just ride it and forget about it.

To me, EMS is like a HD download (only much better!) in that you set it, and forget it.  If you want to mess with anything, then get a product that lets you tune/adjust the bike how you wish.

However, its good to ask Brian questions here, or on the phone, to determine if they can mod the ECM to make it work better for you application.  But, its not a product that is intended for end user access/mods.

Absolutely nothing wrong with your question, and I hope I dont offend you with my answer.  Just trying to help others understand this product, as an early adopter.

Dennis

no problem Dennis
I just want to know.....if the user wanted to run a open loop map,is it possible? collect the data send the thing back and request Brian or whoever to use the data to create a open loop map ,send it back and install. no sensors (any kind) collecting data anymore ,just a open loop map .

[FLTRI]

...I just want to know.....if the user wanted to run a open loop map,is it possible? collect the data send the thing back and request Brian or whoever to use the data to create a open loop map ,send it back and install. no sensors (any kind) collecting data anymore ,just a open loop map .

Just curious, why would you want to revert back to yesteryear's technology that can not/will not adapt to changes, especially in fuels/quality?
Bob

[strokerjlk]

...I just want to know.....if the user wanted to run a open loop map,is it possible? collect the data send the thing back and request Brian or whoever to use the data to create a open loop map ,send it back and install. no sensors (any kind) collecting data anymore ,just a open loop map .

Just curious, why would you want to revert back to yesteryear's technology that can not/will not adapt to changes, especially in fuels/quality?
Bob

you already know why!
I asked a question ,just want a answer. if you know the answer ...post it up.

[mike 120]

Would be great to see professionally tuned highly modified engine dyno chart of a known build  and then purposely skew those ve tables and road ride with this Rev Perf EMS then redyno for comparison. That should put peak number issue to rest, street driveability is a different story, would depend on individual feedback, interesting product that should do well if there aren't any reliability issues over time.

[revperf]

Stroker,

It comes down to the fact that what you are asking for is really outside the premise of why and for what purpose we designed the product. In the case of what you are wanting to do I would probably steer you towards the TTS. I am not trying to discourage you as you seem like you might have a geniune need for what you are asking for. It's just that in this case there are probably better tools for your particular instance there than ours.

Brian

[Jeffd]

Seems like it is going to be a very nice product for people like me, who just want to ride and are not interested in chasing every last ounce of power, but instead want a great running, good mpg getting machine without the fuss or know how. 

[wurk_truk]

What makes me happy is this...  finally... the consumer is going to have some choices for tuning his personal bike.  2011 is looking to be the year the consumer gets a LOT more choices and THAT is a great thing for sure!!!!!

Jeff hit the nail right on the head.  A LOT of folks want what he stated.

Don... as time goes by, could you make new posts and update us on your thoughts?  TIA.

[strokerjlk]

Stroker,

It comes down to the fact that what you are asking for is really outside the premise of why and for what purpose we designed the product. In the case of what you are wanting to do I would probably steer you towards the TTS. I am not trying to discourage you as you seem like you might have a geniune need for what you are asking for. It's just that in this case there are probably better tools for your particular instance there than ours.

Brian

I am just wanting to know if your product is capable of doing this. I dont have a need for this particular product. I tune bikes so I wouldnt ever have a need to use one. what I do see happening is someone asking for my help. I think there could be a problem with some builds. If your product has the capability to do this I could save them some money rather than sell them a new tuner and dyno tune there bike. I can see some bikes having problems down the road.
let me put it this way ...as you know not all builds will give accurate AFR readings (no matter what sensors we use) so we as tuners have to interrupt corrupt data and make changes to overcome this. for instance high compression,cams with huge overlap,and pipes with reversion. so if you run a closed loop tune or auto tune, that is  analyzing data and some of that data is corrupt,it will skew other areas (open and closed loop) so why would I want to turn a bike loose that I know a closed loop portion of the map is skewing the rest of the map. I have seen it and so have many other tuners. now instead of taking someones money by talking them into a new tuner and tune ,I could advise them to have you take there map to open loop and advise a safe AFR map for all areas based on there build.
I also see builds that the ION sensing isnt happy with. (most higher compression builds) so I turn off the spark retard because it is pulling timing when it isnt necessary and killing power for no reason. so another question is ....can YOU turn the spark retard off with your system?

I really like the idea you have here. and I am sure it will be a hit on a lot of builds. just looking ahead as I see possible problems on some builds.
please guys dont start your closed loop is the greatest thing since sliced bread opinions. I have mine and your comments wont change my mind.
so let Brian answer the questions that I asked and let it go at that. give the guy his thread without starting the usual debates.

[revperf]

Stroked,

Now I have a better idea. I think your questions would be better answered over a phone call. Would you please PM me your number and I will give you a call today.

Brian

[mike 120]

Stroker, what type or components of a build do you feel would cause a problem? I'm thinking on getting one for myself but don't want to aggravate myself any longer with on road tuning using my TSII.
Mike

[revperf]

Stroker/Mike,

You are right about these types of scenarios.  One of the first test combinations that we ran with the system was a 135" engine with .715" cams, 62mm T-Body, 11:1CR, Destroyer injectors and a 2-2 exhaust.  Being in the tuning game you know that a beast like this can be a bear to sew up from a manners standpoint.  WOT is easy.  Making it ride like a stocker everwhere else is not.  We purposely used it as a starting point to put strategies in place for the system to recognize when it was seeing skewed data returns from overlap and reversionary waves and not end up in a runaway scenario.

Brian

[Dennis The Menace]

Harp, you wont be disappointed.  Its a great product.

Dennis

[sportygordy]

As soon as i  get my Jims 131 back from re-builder i'll be trying this out as well. Been very happy with the Daytona Twin Tec system for years and now time to quit fiddling and start enjoying the rides.... Im hopping this system is what is claimed and now knowing the Chris Schroder was the engineer on the design team i feel a lot better knowing it will work as claimed. Im just curious how it will work on big inch motors and i'll be one of those to report back.

[Don D]

Im hopping this system is what is claimed and now knowing the Chris Schroder was the engineer on the design team i feel a lot better knowing it will work as claimed

Personally I don't care because so far it is working well for me, but is this true? I know it was stated that the wide band interface was their hardware and as far as I have read that is all that is stated about the involvement by DTT in the product. Still don't have any feelings either way as long as it works. The DTT Wego was not a satisfactory solution for me. Tinkering on the side of the road with a laptop is not my idea of a fun ride.

[hogsty]

I'm always suspicious when it's a "black box" type solution.  I guess that's the advantage to some.  You can't mess with it. 

For $799 can't you buy a tuner and get a professional tune done? 

[Jeffd]

I'm always suspicious when it's a "black box" type solution.  I guess that's the advantage to some.  You can't mess with it. 

For $799 can't you buy a tuner and get a professional tune done?

Not if your 1750 miles one way from the closest competant tuner.  Heck Dewey is in an area between Seattle and Portland and he can not find a tuner, what do you think us guys out in Montana are going to do?

[revperf]

Thanks for the interest guys. Just to be clear on something. All we use is the O2 interpreter interface from DTT. That was and is the extent of their involvement. One piece of hardware.  Not a smash against them at all but want to be clear on that.  With that said we were extremely relieved to find a crucial part of the system that could be sourced here in the U.S.  Thanks again.

Brian

[BVHOG]

Brian, I truly would like your opinion on the accuracy of the broad band sensors when used in the Harley application and their life expectancy.

[Don D]

Bob
Call him up!

[sportygordy]

Bob
Call him up!

And post the answer   

[1FSTRK]

Brian, I truly would like your opinion on the accuracy of the broad band sensors when used in the Harley application and their life expectancy.

Why would this be any different because Rev does their download?
Am I missing something? Are they using them in some new manor?
Please explain the connection between this new tuner and the old subject that has already
been road to death.

[BVHOG]

Bob
Call him up!

Actually tried last week, lines were very busy.

The obvious reason for my question is the conflicting info we are being fed by the producers of differing products, one says the broad bands work great (which I may agree with) and another who uses a different type of 02 sensor claims them to not only be superior but insinuates that the broad bands are not up to the task in the Harley application. So which one is it? If I were to be spending my hard earned dollars on one system or the other I would like to hear why one is superior or at least capable compared to the other.

[FLTRI]

The obvious? reason for my question is the conflicting info we are being fed by the producers of differing products, one says the broad bands work great (which I may agree with) and another who uses a different type of 02 sensor claims them to not only be superior but insinuates that the broad bands are not up to the task in the Harley application....

I think there may be just a bit of  going on here?

[mayor]

I think there may be just a bit of  going on here?

I would tend to agree, but see no harm in the question as long as it's a legitimate question and everyone remains civil and respectful.

[Sc00ter]

The obvious? reason for my question is the conflicting info we are being fed by the producers of differing products, one says the broad bands work great (which I may agree with) and another who uses a different type of 02 sensor claims them to not only be superior but insinuates that the broad bands are not up to the task in the Harley application....

I think there may be just a bit of  going on here?

You think?  Just a bit?     I'll bet the professionals involved leave it alone and keep the thread free of the usual tired debates...

[mike 120]

Is it possible there isn't an absolute best of the two? 

[FLTRI]

Just have to accept a couple basic facts as applied to electronics:
* Heat and vibration kills. (reason for the MOCO moving them way away from high combustion temp and cylinder vibration?)
* Some are more robust than others. (Short stout sensors ie:Twin Cam eng temp (short/stubby) is more robust than O2)
It applies to all sensors, not just O2 sensors.
Bob

[BVHOG]

The obvious? reason for my question is the conflicting info we are being fed by the producers of differing products, one says the broad bands work great (which I may agree with) and another who uses a different type of 02 sensor claims them to not only be superior but insinuates that the broad bands are not up to the task in the Harley application....

I think there may be just a bit of  going on here?

I don't appreciate your insinuations, there has been conflicting info here and all I wan't is a solid answer, if you have it, post up, if you don't thats fine also but don't accuse me of stirring the pot when your own post has done exactly that.

[BVHOG]

now, BV that post does not look civil and respectful.  could you edit that to tone that down a fuzz....

How's that boss, still too much?

[Steve Cole]

BV

All one needs to do is go back over the last several years and look at the amount of failed LSU 4 sensors in the motorcycle industry then continue on to look at the amount that failed in the racing industry. Many with T-max have gone to using the tuning feature then once dialed in shutting it off and removing the sensors and replacing with plugs. If those numbers are good to you then go right ahead and use them but do NOT for one minute try and compare them to a real Wide Band sensor.

[BVHOG]

BV

All one needs to do is go back over the last several years and look at the amount of failed LSU 4 sensors in the motorcycle industry then continue on to look at the amount that failed in the racing industry. Many with T-max have gone to using the tuning feature then once dialed in shutting it off and removing the sensors and replacing with plugs. If those numbers are good to you then go right ahead and use them but do NOT for one minute try and compare them to a real Wide Band sensor.

I understand that and the thought of failed 02 sensors was one of my biggest concerns when I first saw them on the HD line with the 06 dyna, my first one went on my Streetbob at less than 500 miles.   If you see a CEL on an auto you have a pretty good chance of it being an 02 failure. My concerns with leaving any 02 sensor functioning is the owner dumping who knows what for additives in the tank and degrading or causing complete 02 failure because of it. FWIW I don't think the LSU's are the answer for complete fuel control because of degradation. Time will tell.
As for using the Tmax broad bands for tuning and then shutting them off much the same thing has been done on many Delphi units and is happening more and more with the constant influx of bigger better faster more radical builds.

[Steve Cole]

BV

All one needs to do is go back over the last several years and look at the amount of failed LSU 4 sensors in the motorcycle industry then continue on to look at the amount that failed in the racing industry. Many with T-max have gone to using the tuning feature then once dialed in shutting it off and removing the sensors and replacing with plugs. If those numbers are good to you then go right ahead and use them but do NOT for one minute try and compare them to a real Wide Band sensor.

I understand that and the thought of failed 02 sensors was one of my biggest concerns when I first saw them on the HD line with the 06 dyna, my first one went on my Streetbob at less than 500 miles.   If you see a CEL on an auto you have a pretty good chance of it being an 02 failure. My concerns with leaving any 02 sensor functioning is the owner dumping who knows what for additives in the tank and degrading or causing complete 02 failure because of it. FWIW I don't think the LSU's are the answer for complete fuel control because of degradation. Time will tell.
As for using the Tmax broad bands for tuning and then shutting them off much the same thing has been done on many Delphi units and is happening more and more with the constant influx of bigger better faster more radical builds.

So far we have seen good life, not great life on the HD stock O2 sensors. While there have been some failures not near the rate the LSU4's have shown. It's not the engine build that seems to cause them to fail when you look at what the failures come off of, seems to be an even mix of combination's. I see no reason to turn off a perfectly good working sensor when the failure rate is as good as it is with the stock O2's unless there is another problem. If there is another problem you need to fix it and move on. Some just want to believe you need to run an HD engine much richer than it needs to be and as long as they think that they will continue doing it and not learn.

This is a Rev performance (Brian's) thread as I've said before so if you want to discuss O2 sensors in a civil and respectful mannor it needs to be in another thread.

[Jeffd]

BV

All one needs to do is go back over the last several years and look at the amount of failed LSU 4 sensors in the motorcycle industry then continue on to look at the amount that failed in the racing industry. Many with T-max have gone to using the tuning feature then once dialed in shutting it off and removing the sensors and replacing with plugs. If those numbers are good to you then go right ahead and use them but do NOT for one minute try and compare them to a real Wide Band sensor.

I understand that and the thought of failed 02 sensors was one of my biggest concerns when I first saw them on the HD line with the 06 dyna, my first one went on my Streetbob at less than 500 miles.   If you see a CEL on an auto you have a pretty good chance of it being an 02 failure. My concerns with leaving any 02 sensor functioning is the owner dumping who knows what for additives in the tank and degrading or causing complete 02 failure because of it. FWIW I don't think the LSU's are the answer for complete fuel control because of degradation. Time will tell.
As for using the Tmax broad bands for tuning and then shutting them off much the same thing has been done on many Delphi units and is happening more and more with the constant influx of bigger better faster more radical builds.

So far we have seen good life, not great life on the HD stock O2 sensors. While there have been some failures not near the rate the LSU4's have shown. It's not the engine build that seems to cause them to fail when you look at what the failures come off of, seems to be an even mix of combination's. I see no reason to turn off a perfectly good working sensor when the failure rate is as good as it is with the stock O2's unless there is another problem. If there is another problem you need to fix it and move on. Some just want to believe you need to run an HD engine much richer than it needs to be and as long as they think that they will continue doing it and not learn.

This is a Rev performance (Brian's) thread as I've said before so if you want to discuss O2 sensors in a civil and respectful mannor it needs to be in another thread.

cool post.  so what is an ideal range ie from leanest to richest an average new harley should be in to insure long life of the motor? I am one that does not give a rip about what the heat feels like on my legs.  I was a motor for 10 years and owned a Honda ST1300 so a little heat off a harley motor is nothing.  You could cook eggs with the heat coming off the ST1300/

[x52gnr]

 Any more feedback on this product? I pulled the trigger and ordered on from Jenni, great price and quick delivery...I will be shipping my ecm out in the next couple days and hope to have some personal results in the next few weeks, weather and work will dictate when that happens though. It seems from what I can sort through from here and the CVO forum that it does what it says....

[Dennis The Menace]

x52, you will be impressed with the product.  Just remember, its for those who dont wish to tinker and tune.  Its for those who want to install it and just ride the bike.  Its quick and easy to install.  When you start the bike the first time, just let it get warmed up and you are done and ready to ride.

As Brian pointed out, it adjusts on fly as you ride to provide optimal AFR for the riding conditions you are at.  I never had an issue with mine.

Also, just my personal experience, the wide band sensors I ran with TMax (same as ECM) held up fine for 12k miles, no degradation.  I expect these 02's to last a good 25-30K, minimum, depending on application.  They happen to be the same exact sensor in my 2004 Mecedes Benz, and I only replaced mine earlier this year because they were over 5 years old (with 55k miles on them).  Yes, a different application and environment, but the LSU4 is more durable than one would think.  This was confirmed by my MB dealer that said I shouldnt worry about the O2s for at least another 50K miles. (They recommend changing at 100-120K mile service intervals)

However, I can see if the O2 is placed close to the exhaust port it will be subject to high heat in the path.  However, the MB dealer told me the cat on my vehicle reaches over 1,000 degrees at highway speed, consistently.  So, application on the HD, depending on the pipe, should be a non issue.

JME

Dennis

[x52gnr]

  Thanks Dennis, It ran good with the Tmax but I was constantly tinkering with the map and it just got frustrating after a while. I felt like I was so wound up in how the bike ran and what I should adjust next that it took away from the pleasure of riding...and if its something I can tinker with , Will tinker..lol Since this system also utilizes the stock sensors to adjust timing rather than me tinkering with a map I think I will be better off as well. My riding conditions, weights, pulling trailer etc vary so much I could never seem to get the best balance. I did notice the sensors are the same as the ones used on the Tmax with the exception of the connectors but this would be an easy switchover if needed on the road somewhere..I appreciate the tolerance and patience most show on this forum as I am no expert and I am sure I have asked my share of stupid or redundant questions. As Mayor stated in another post sometimes the bickering and nit picking gets way out of hand and i imagine it has prevented a lot of good questions being asked for fear of being pounced upon..I know I have felt this way in the past.  Thanks for listening, back to your current programming ...lol

[WVULTRA]

Any more feedback on this product? I pulled the trigger and ordered on from Jenni, great price and quick delivery...I will be shipping my ecm out in the next couple days and hope to have some personal results in the next few weeks, weather and work will dictate when that happens though. It seems from what I can sort through from here and the CVO forum that it does what it says....

x52:

Didn't know if you'd seen this write-up on the RevPerf install and results:

http://www.cvoharley.com/smf/index.php?topic=58189.0

Pretty thorough.....

[x52gnr]

x52:



Didn't know if you'd seen this write-up on the RevPerf install and results:

http://www.cvoharley.com/smf/index.php?topic=58189.0

Pretty thorough.....


[/quote]

  Thanks WV  that was what i was looking for...

[cody]

 Brian, I have a 2009 Street Glide with Cycle Shack slip-on's. If I did the EMS I would add a high flow air cleaner for now (plan to do a cam later).
My bike is still under warranty until July. My question is if I had to take my bike in for warranty work could I re-install the narrow band sensors, remove the O2 interpreter, install the stock air filter and pipes and be able to ride the bike ?

[FLTRI]

Brian, I have a 2009 Street Glide with Cycle Shack slip-on's. If I did the EMS I would add a high flow air cleaner for now (plan to do a cam later).
My bike is still under warranty until July. My question is if I had to take my bike in for warranty work could I re-install the narrow band sensors, remove the O2 interpreter, install the stock air filter and pipes and be able to ride the bike ?

Since the ECM's stock calibration is reprogrammed by RevPerf, If a dealer hooks up to it to log into the MOCO for warranty, you may find they see a, shall we say, "custom" calibration and NOT the factory mapping as delivered.

There are ways to retain the stock ID yet use modded calibrations but that wouldn't be totally honest would it? But then again, either would be returning the bike to stock and taking it into the dealer for warranty work.
Just my $.02,
Bob

[Sc00ter]

Brian, I have a 2009 Street Glide with Cycle Shack slip-on's. If I did the EMS I would add a high flow air cleaner for now (plan to do a cam later).
My bike is still under warranty until July. My question is if I had to take my bike in for warranty work could I re-install the narrow band sensors, remove the O2 interpreter, install the stock air filter and pipes and be able to ride the bike ?

Since the ECM's stock calibration is reprogrammed by RevPerf, If a dealer hooks up to it to log into the MOCO for warranty, you may find they see a, shall we say, "custom" calibration and NOT the factory mapping as delivered.

There are ways to retain the stock ID yet use modded calibrations but that wouldn't be totally honest would it? But then again, either would be returning the bike to stock and taking it into the dealer for warranty work.
Just my $.02,
Bob

Not that I don't appreciate your point, Bob...  It's just that I had a vision of the "techs" working at the dealerships in my area...

[wurk_truk]

Brian, I have a 2009 Street Glide with Cycle Shack slip-on's. If I did the EMS I would add a high flow air cleaner for now (plan to do a cam later).
My bike is still under warranty until July. My question is if I had to take my bike in for warranty work could I re-install the narrow band sensors, remove the O2 interpreter, install the stock air filter and pipes and be able to ride the bike ?

To me?  That would be stealing.  Stealing from the MOCO, and some would say "Good', but stealing none-the-less.   Warranties are for STOCK bikes with stock equipment...  NOT modified bikes.  Just my opinion, here.

Steve Cole, etc... made GM REALLY clamp down on this (diesels) and nowadays... the first thing a dealer tech (GM) looks for is evidence of tuners or tuning.  GM techs, can look inside the ECM and tell if it has EVER had any tune besides the stock one.  Doesn't matter if the stock tune is in place now.  We have hashed this to death on Z06 forums, and I believe that flashing back to stock after something breaks is BS!!!

If you play... you pay.

The engine/tranny on my 09 bike has been without warranty since 09.

[Dennis The Menace]

It really would depend on what was being warrantied, IMO.  Motor mod isnt going to void a warranty on the entire bike.

I also wouldnt try to play with the ECM...take it to the dealer as is.  If they want to say its due to the tuner, then they have a burden of proof, altho with MoCo, it might require an attorney on your part to get them to see the light.

I talked to my dealer about this in the past, and they would warranty stuff unless it was due to my screwing things up.  Not all dealers would be that congenial, I realize.

menace

[x52gnr]

 I agree with Dennis, if the tuner damaged the motor in someway Ie ran lean or what ever than it should be your dime and voiding that part of the warranty...I dont believe hiding the fact that you had that on there would help your credibility also.  I cant imagine if you had lets say a wiring issue for your lights or a wheel  bearing issue etc thats non engine or fuel system related that they could deny you a claim for that...jmho

[wurk_truk]

The rest of my bike IS still warrantied.   I had the radio and key fob antenna replaced.  It's about being upfront with oneself and carrying the weight of decisions made... if you mod the engine you accept that part of the warranty yourself.  My dealer worked with me all along, because I was upfront on the engine mods.  After the horror stories I hear about dealers.... MY dealer is probably an exception.

[Dennis The Menace]

FWIW, my dealer will warrant any work they do. That may not do me much good if I have to go to another shop.  But, its good to know if my dealer does the motor work and it craps, they are on the hook (unless it really is my fault, of course).

Had a lot of work done on my 05 RG (88-95 and heads, 6-speed innards, etc) when delivered new, and they put it in writing they would cover it under full HD warranty for entire warranty period.

I recommend getting it in writing. Any of those young serice guys can/will blow smoke.

[hrdtail78]

Like stated the rest of the bike is still under warranty.  If you go to a shop (Indy shops can do Harley warranties) for wheel bearings why would I take the time to look at engine mods?


"I agree with Dennis, if the tuner damaged the motor in someway Ie ran lean or what ever than it should be your dime and voiding that part of the warranty..."

But since this a complete plug and play system.  I would be looking at Rev Perf to address this issue, and make things right.

[1FSTRK]

This sure sounds like a new thread to me. It may be valid subject but it applies to all after market tuning devices and should not be tied to the Rev Performance thread.

[hrdtail78]

This sure sounds like a new thread to me. It may be valid subject but it applies to all after market tuning devices and should not be tied to the Rev Performance thread.

I disagree.  We are talking about a self contained unit that the end customer can not change.  It is advertised this way.  The other tuning divices out on the market need some user interface.

Warranty, and responsibility is something I think about before buying a product.

[1FSTRK]

I removed this reply and started a thread because of the reasons I stated above.

[harleyguynv]

Warranty work is really dependant on the dealer you are dealing with. I had engine problems on my 07 SEUC and had to have it worked on at 2 different dealers. I have a Powercommander on it and neither dealer had a problem working on my bike under warranty. I eventually had to have a new engine installed from Harley. 

[hrdtail78]

Are TTS and SE giving a warranty on your motor if you use their product?
You can go to their base map, build according to the exact parts listed and install a map unaltered does that make them responsible?

No, and I think you are missing my point.  TTS and SE devices are not advertised as a plug and play.  The TTS manual includes info on how to tune the bike it is being installed on.  To get to the end result human interface needs to happen.  The final MAP that is loaded into the stock ECM is the person that loaded it responsibility.  Now the stock system is still in place.  This is a tool.  Like holding snap-on responsible for slipping off a bolt and scratching the gas tank.  No, it's the person holding the tools fault.

The EMS unit is a hard part that replaces parts on the bike.  You remove stock components and put on their stuff.  As for as I know there is only one company you send your stock ECM to for manipulation.  This is a component.  My responsibility ends with a correct install of the unit.

[FLTRI]

...TTS and SE devices are not advertised as a plug and play.  The TTS manual includes info on how to tune the bike it is being installed on.  To get to the end result human interface needs to happen.  The final MAP that is loaded into the stock ECM is the person that loaded it responsibility.  Now the stock system is still in place.  This is a tool.  Like holding snap-on responsible for slipping off a bolt and scratching the gas tank.  No, it's the person holding the tools fault.

The EMS unit is a hard part that replaces parts on the bike.  You remove stock components and put on their stuff.  As for as I know there is only one company you send your stock ECM to for manipulation.  This is a component.  My responsibility ends with a correct install of the unit.

Great info and explanation,
Bob

[wurk_truk]

Warranty work is really dependant on the dealer you are dealing with. I had engine problems on my 07 SEUC and had to have it worked on at 2 different dealers. I have a Powercommander on it and neither dealer had a problem working on my bike under warranty. I eventually had to have a new engine installed from Harley. 

PC is a bit different than an engine that is built.

Having a dealer work with you, when the engine is built...  THAT is a good dealer.

Here is a pic of what is still covered by my warranty.   

[wurk_truk]

Has anyone with an EMS unit played around a bit?  Hook up a TS2 and WEGO?  Look at command and actual, etc?

[Jeffd]

Warranty work is really dependant on the dealer you are dealing with. I had engine problems on my 07 SEUC and had to have it worked on at 2 different dealers. I have a Powercommander on it and neither dealer had a problem working on my bike under warranty. I eventually had to have a new engine installed from Harley. 

PC is a bit different than an engine that is built.

Having a dealer work with you, when the engine is built...  THAT is a good dealer.

Here is a pic of what is still covered by my warranty.   

ya sure about the tranny? lol

[wurk_truk]

I have a new tranny in a box sitting for THAT day....  HAHA  ECM and all electronics are covered.

[Dennis The Menace]

I dont see saddlebags, so I presume the latch springs are not covered?  lol  (Sorry, I had to do it)

menace

[Jeffd]

I also forgot to mention, I bet the enjoyment of yours mods far out weigh the thought of the warranty.  It is funny how some people wait until the day the warrranty expires to make mods.  I think you have the right attitude.

[1FSTRK]

Stroker,

Thanks for the question.  Our product is a dynamic, adaptive, wide-band closed loop system.  When we shoot for 14.0-14.2 AFR at cruise we are using feedback from the wide-band O2 sensors, as well as other inputs, to automatically tune the motorcycle to that AFR value.  Think of our system as acting just like the stock closed loop system with the narrow band O2 sensors with the exception that we are using wide band sensors which lets us control AFR precisely over the entire operation range of the motorcycle, not just a small area.  This is why there are many testimonials as to bikes running much better right from the start.  Because the system can identify and correct for AFR shifts throughout the rpm and load range almost instantly; this system has benefited many customers with bikes with unstable idles, tip in complaints, and AFR instabilities in the light load cruise range that can be very hard to tune.  Because the system is constantly levelizing the VE tables in the background for the environment that the bike is operating in, the open loop tables can be accessed instantly should the closed loop feedback become skewed beyond what the ECM recognizes as a normal operating parameter.  Again, all these things can be accomplished with systems like the TTS and others.  We are just trying to provide a product for people who do not want to tune the bike themselves but still want comparable results in a plug and play fashion.  There was another question regarding the wide-band sensors remaining installed in the vehicle.  Yes, this is a dynamic system and the wide-band O2 sensors are continuously being used to check and adjust the state of tune of the vehicle.  The OEM sensors are no longer used.  The next question, a lot of times, is “Well, what if they fail?”  The answer to this is that if you should fail a sensor then the ECM will sense it and will revert into an open loop fail-safe mode and carry on until you replace the sensor.  As soon as you do it will go adaptive once again and you are on your way.     

Brian

Rev
    I am looking forward to upgrading my bike to your product. I want to thank you for taking the time here to answer the many questions that have been asked about how your product achieves such good results. I do like the idea that you have such a large data base of calibrations and that you custom tailor the ecm for us rather than my having to go through the trial and error method of finding which wrong base cal I can fudge to work with my build. Because I don't have a cam made by the only manufacturer that others have actual base maps for, I am ready for a tuning device setup for my bike. Having read the fail safes that are built in to run the open loop map if the system senses a failed reading from an O2 sensor I have
no doubt that this is a true install and ride product. I do have one question on the timing. Does the system run some type of adaptive timing or is it just the dephi knock retard?

[Don D]

Has anyone with an EMS unit played around a bit?  Hook up a TS2 and WEGO?  Look at command and actual, etc?

Nope!
That's the whole reason to buy this system. Just ride and enjoy.
1fstrk
I was told that the EMS uses the Delphi ion sensing to sample, learn, and adapt much the way the factory scheme is but more priority is added to the adaptive function. The factory software scheme is more about staying out of trouble rather than keeping that data active and using it. Think of it like MS Windows process prioritys. If I am understanding the EMS scheme they took all the same tables (most not shown in the SEST or TTS) and shuffled the prioritys to put more emphasis on the "adaptive" portion.

[rbabos]

Has anyone with an EMS unit played around a bit?  Hook up a TS2 and WEGO?  Look at command and actual, etc?

Nope!
That's the whole reason to buy this system. Just ride and enjoy.
1fstrk
I was told that the EMS uses the Delphi ion sensing to sample, learn, and adapt much the way the factory scheme is but more priority is added to the adaptive function. The factory software scheme is more about staying out of trouble rather than keeping that data active and using it. Think of it like MS Windows process prioritys. If I am understanding the EMS scheme they took all the same tables (most not shown in the SEST or TTS) and shuffled the prioritys to put more emphasis on the "adaptive" portion.

This is really starting to look like a well thought out system.
Ron

[Jeffd]

Has anyone with an EMS unit played around a bit?  Hook up a TS2 and WEGO?  Look at command and actual, etc?

Nope!
That's the whole reason to buy this system. Just ride and enjoy.
1fstrk
I was told that the EMS uses the Delphi ion sensing to sample, learn, and adapt much the way the factory scheme is but more priority is added to the adaptive function. The factory software scheme is more about staying out of trouble rather than keeping that data active and using it. Think of it like MS Windows process prioritys. If I am understanding the EMS scheme they took all the same tables (most not shown in the SEST or TTS) and shuffled the prioritys to put more emphasis on the "adaptive" portion.

This is really starting to look like a well thought out system.
Ron

hopefully for $800 plus the cost of having to change or modify the headers if you have a 2010 or 2011 model. That said for a guy like me it seems the perfect set up but just having a hard time digesting the cost.

[Don D]

The unit sells for substantially less than that. They are now available for the 2010 and 2011 models.
PM me for details

[Jeffd]

pm sent thanks

[x52gnr]

Just an update, got the unit installed Sunday. everything was straight forward and was fairley simple. plan on spending time getting all the wires routed neatly if you are a perfectionist....Did the free air calibration of the 02 sensors and fired it up. It started immediately and set in to a fairly smooth idle right off the bat. After it ran for about a minute it ran extremelty smooth with almost no engine movement/ shaking. much improved over my  my T-max. I let it run for about 10 minutes than shut it down. I didnt get a chance to ride it yet since i have a few odds and ends to finish before its completely back together but so far i give  it a 

[Dennis The Menace]

X52, my experiences with it exactly.  I bet you that the bike will ride great!

[Thumper Buttercup]

We'll after reading everything I could find this weekend I changed up my plans
and called Frank at Drago's today to order my unit.

I really did not want to have to deal with tuners and the computer side even
tho I'm a network manager I really like the plug and play option.

Thanks for sharing the info guys it helped a lot.

[wurk_truk]

Please keep the rest of us posted on how this thing works as summer comes along.  I am REALLY hopeful that THIS could very well be an answer for quite a few builds.

Before I start recommending this as an option for certain folks, I want to see a season on this and get your inputs.

[wurk_truk]

Hey Econnor

Whats up?

[Don D]

I would not expect a warranty for collateral damage. You do not get that with any tuning or EFI system available for the HD do you?

[hrdtail78]

I would not expect a warranty for collateral damage. You do not get that with any tuning or EFI system available for the HD do you?

No, but nothing else is advertise as a complete plug and play like this.  The others sell their device and it is up to the end user to develop a cal. or go somewhere and get one developed.  This gives a buffer to the manufacture.  If I tune a bike and it melts pistons because I did something wrong.  I bet that guy is looking for me to make it right.  This is one of the reason why tuners give very vague answers to "will this work until I can get to a tuner" type question.  Look at the TC section about the Rev-Perf .002 run out thread.  Hasn't contacted RP but has posted his findings on at least 2 forums I am aware of.  I bring it up not because it is RP, but because it is the wrong way to handle it.

If this unit fails and causes and engine to run extremely lean and burns an engine up what are you going to do about it?

IMO with this type of plug and play unit, they should take complete responsibility.

[wurk_truk]

A Dude goes to an HD dealer with his used bike.  The original ECM was defective.  They flash a NEW ecm and he installs it in the bike.  The flash they installed was totally wrong and burned his pistons... who would be on the hook for THAT fix?

I KNOW who should be.  ANd... how would THIS be different?  This is NOT ...say TTS, where I shot a bad tune at my bike and burned my own pistons (which I surely did do).

If the end user installs according to instructions and something bad happens?  It SHOULD be on RP, in MY book.

That being said... how much of a chance of that happening?  I bet slim to none.  Why?  EMS must be really close to an ECM's stock functionality and the 'tune' must be a generic and 'safe' tune.  The WBO2s have me thinking that EMS uses the O2s for tune control... keep the map centered.. and NOT fuel control.  It's like the AFVs are applied withOUT the instantaneous correction of fuel control.  I could surely be wrong... but that IS how I think of it.  I think RP has a half dozen maps they install (why one needs to send back when going bigger) and these are safe solid tunes... just like any worked over base map.  It's an 80% solution.

80% solutions CAN work on a lot of bikes, tho.  Don't miss what you don't know is there.

[revperf]

This is a fair question because our business model is different.  Unlike the other units in the market,  which are good pieces by the way, we set out to fill what we feel is a significant void of customers who just want to ride their motorcycles and, within scope, make modifications as they go and still have a nice running bike.  The beauty of this type system is that it allows the OEM system to do what it was designed to do in the first place.  Just better and more efficiently.  What I mean by this is that all the factory safeguards to prevent the system from “running away” with itself and adapting to a lethal lean setting are still there.  This is just one of the reasons that we took this approach for this product.  There are also strategies in place from our perspective to buffer this even more.  The system has only so much authority to lean itself out before it begins to recognize that the incoming data is inappropriate.  At this time it clips and enters open loop “safe” mode and you will know it.  Generally you will be able to sense something is amiss way before that happens anyway.  The bottom line is that code is code and once entered it remains the same.  If the code is wrong from the beginning it will be wrong in the end.  The burden that we have volunteered to bare is exactly what Wurk alluded to which is to get the cal safe and within appropriate ranges from the onset.  If we install a “wrong” code it will be blaringly evident from the onset and we will accept the responsibility for the mistake and address the damage, if any. 

@Wurk,
I appreciate your input and wish we had gotten a chance to meet at Cincy.  Maybe next year we can meet up and I’ll buy.  BTW, we have a few more than a dozen maps and we do try to get it a little tighter than 80%.

@hrdtail
I guess I don’t really understand the comparison to the guy over on TC with the crankshaft.  To my knowledge he hasn’t even contacted us.   

Thanks,

Brian

[hrdtail78]

@hrdtail
I guess I don’t really understand the comparison to the guy over on TC with the crankshaft.  To my knowledge he hasn’t even contacted us.   

Thanks,

Brian

Wasn't comparing.  Just stating how when things do go wrong people post it all over the net.  So, along with the dealings I have had with you.   I couldn't see how you wouldn't stand behind this type of device.

[wurk_truk]

I like the fact that you are using a stock Delphi, Brian.  I also like that you told US, the members here, basically how this all works.  Sounds like a pretty solid design.  There ARE a lot of safeguards built into that ECM.  Do you recommend to customers they stick with stock plugs and wires?  I would.

Rock and a hard place, sometimes for folks that try to be early adopters, huh?  EConnor HAS a valid point that maybe you need to address, even tho I am satisfied your product is most likely a very safe product for the end user.  Addressing Ed's concerns would go a LONG way to further your customer base for this thing.  If something ever did come up... a quick and proper resolution would work wonders.

It's tough for you, I know better than most, but a SOLID plan that is in your literature could be helpful on your part.  C'Mon Brian, spit it out and state you WOULD cover all costs if a bad thing ever were to happen.  Crap happens once and awhile, even to me!!!  (imagine that).

I 'got' what Jason was saying about that crank.  Not that YOU did something (or maybe you did... .002 run out)... but that the internet is a cruel and merciless thing, and folks post without ever contacting a MFG, tuner, etc, and allowing a shop to FIX crap before posting... which is one of my pet peeves.

[Dennis The Menace]

IMO, how/why would you write a warranty that covers a blown motor!?!?  It would be open to interpretation as to the root cause of a failure.  Some guys trash the heck out of a bike, over rev it, dump the clutch at a light at 5k RPM, downshift to first at 40 MPH and all kinds of stupid stuff, and the motor gets broke and you want the tuner manufacturer to cover it? 

I'm sure you dont think that, but how do you PROVE the tuner was at fault, when there are endless variables to consider as the root problem.  The biggest problem would be proving the motor problem was directly caused only by the tuner.  Not saying it couldnt be done, but it might be easier finding a needle in a barnyard.

JMO

Dennis

[hrdtail78]

I don't think they can detonate themselves to death, but they can retard timing enough to burn up exhaust vavles.  Now you have a build with 3,000 miles on it, and compression shot craps.  Signs of detonation on the plugs.  I would blame the tune. 

[wurk_truk]

 

problems with a tune are fairly straight forward.  Things like blue wrist pins come to mind.....  Burnt valves (like me)... etc.  An engine that 'exploded' isn't the tune...  Excessive long term heat is...  The 'tell tales' would be right there and couldn't be faked by someone wanting a new engine.

These ARE issues that Brian has fairly covered, Dennis, by his design.  But... crap DOES happen.  Employee having a 'bad' day, etc.  If RP ever had to 'cover' one engine would surprise me, but since it IS RP?  Brian's statements would go a long way towards a bad taste in a LOT of folks mouths.

One statement Brian made HAS to be true...  if for whatever reason the wrong map was loaded in a EMS unit and it shipped?  It SHOULD be obvious right away.

As to the WHY he needs to do this?  It IS a plug and play that has everybody locked out.  Since the end user IS locked out... it is purely Brian's code that would be at fault.   I am just trying to make Brian see how folks are viewing this, and do NOT think RP would ever be on the hook, but allowing themselves to BE on the hook... if ever needed, would go a LONG ways....

Dennis, you HAVE one of these, so it is natural for YOU to defend the product... because YOU bought it.  I get that.  But... if May comes around and you find you need a total new top end because of excessive heat destroyed the pistons, etc... what then?

[Sc00ter]

problems with a tune are fairly straight forward.  Things like blue wrist pins come to mind.....  Burnt valves (like me)... etc.  An engine that 'exploded' isn't the tune...

There's more than one potential cause for blue wrist pins....agree?

Seems like it would be tough to pin down an "absolute" root cause.....

[mike 120]

Is this unit available for a 2011 Softail Conv? Don't see it listed on website, maybe it's not updated, want to use it with a CR575 cam and Boarzilla exhaust.
Mike

[wurk_truk]

problems with a tune are fairly straight forward.  Things like blue wrist pins come to mind.....  Burnt valves (like me)... etc.  An engine that 'exploded' isn't the tune...

There's more than one potential cause for blue wrist pins....agree?

Seems like it would be tough to pin down an "absolute" root cause.....

Yes, that's true, but one could take a look at the total picture?  As I have said...  with how these are built.. I seriously doubt a problem.  These are aimed at Stage1 and 2 DIY builds for the most part, and for those applications SHOULD (we will see) work really quite well (and I WILL get face slapped by 'the crew' for saying that).  a 120r Hurricane head engine... maybe not so well.  See?

But... ultimately, I want to see RP's reputation increase and THIS would help.  I feel that Brian can be a real positive for us members.  He has knowledge that most do NOT.  I do NOT want him to come on here and get beat to death...  over and over... but it's kinda of a sideways thing and his 'manning up' on the EMS would go a LONG ways.....

I've taken this thread sideways long enough.  I apologize.  EConnor is my friend.  If HE has issues, so will a LOT of folks.I have MY answer on how these are put together.

[Jeffd]

I said early on these are tailor made for tune illiterates like myself  and who do not have a tuner with in a 1000 miles one way.  But wthout some kind of reassurance other then the old "it will be fine on your bike" I can not risk it on a new bike.  I can not see how Rev Perf could be held responsible if push came to shove as a court is going to say you should not have been messing with it in the first place.  My guess with more and more of these type of tuners ie rev perf, Power Vision, and super chips the moco is going to be really checking the ecm finger prints for signs of reflashes.

[Sc00ter]

problems with a tune are fairly straight forward.  Things like blue wrist pins come to mind.....  Burnt valves (like me)... etc.  An engine that 'exploded' isn't the tune...

There's more than one potential cause for blue wrist pins....agree?

Seems like it would be tough to pin down an "absolute" root cause.....

Yes, that's true, but one could take a look at the total picture?  As I have said...  with how these are built.. I seriously doubt a problem.  These are aimed at Stage1 and 2 DIY builds for the most part, and for those applications SHOULD (we will see) work really quite well (and I WILL get face slapped by 'the crew' for saying that).  a 120r Hurricane head engine... maybe not so well.  See?

But... ultimately, I want to see RP's reputation increase and THIS would help.  I feel that Brian can be a real positive for us members.  He has knowledge that most do NOT.  I do NOT want him to come on here and get beat to death...   over and over... but it's kinda of a sideways thing and his 'manning up' on the EMS would go a LONG ways.....

I've taken this thread sideways long enough.  I apologize.  EConnor is my friend.  If HE has issues, so will a LOT of folks.I have MY answer on how these are put together.

  I agree....

[Dennis The Menace]

For the record, I sold my bike last November, with about 500 miles on the EMS, with no issues.  I have no relationship with RevPerf or Brian other than to talk to Brian and his engineers about the product before commiting to installiing it on my bike.

I can only talk to my experience with the product in the short time I ran it.  It performed flawlessly for me.  So, I recommend it based on my (agreed, limited) experience.

If you are worried that this product will cause problems for your motor, then I suggest it may not be the right product for you.  To hypothesize that it may cause problems for your motor suggests that you will not be happy with this product.  I such a case, I recommend you look at a TTS and/or SEPST and get your bike tuned by a competent tuner.

nuff said.

Dennis

[HDDOC]

After reading the 6 pages above, I only have two questions. Does it decel pop, and if it does how does one fix that?   Thanks Doc   PS  I am liking this plug and play type tuner.

[cody]

I have a question for Don (Deweysheads) or Dennis the Menace because I know you guy's have installed this unit. I have a unit that needs to be "free air calibrated" .  The instructions say to adjust the control box so that the light turns from flashing quickly to steady on. So I assume you leave it to where the light is just at the point of being on.
On the Revolution Performance Podcast Brian says and shows the light to be adjusted from being steady on to just beginnig to flicker, and that's where you leave it, so that it is flickering. Which way did you guy's do your's, or anybody else that has installed one ?
                                          Brian

[oldguy]

I have one that you have to calibrate, as well. It is the same procedure as for a tsII. After the sensors are warmed up, just set it as close to the transition point from solid to rapid (faint) flickering as you can. The amount of travel on the adjuster screw is very small incrementally at that point, and you really don't have to worry too much, as I believe you would have to turn the adjuster screw a full turn to affect your afr by 1. In other words, the difference between either solid or faint rapid flicker of the light might be .01:1 difference for your calibration.
This is my understanding of it, sorry for interjecting

[revperf]

Cody,

Oldguy is exactly right.  When you initially fire up the box they will blink slowly and then go solid.  After that turn them until they just flicker and you are good to go.  If you have any other questions or you would like me or one of my staff to walk you through it this morning please don't hesitate to call. 

Brian

[Don D]

I haven't figured out what stage my 117" is but I can tell you it is a radical departure from stock. The unit went on and worked as advertised, much to my amazement. I have since sold them and the guys are raving. I really would be more worried about a botched custom tune then one of these units causing motor damage. I do understand the virtues and cons of both very realistically. In either case warranty is in the owners hands, technically.

[cody]

Thanks for the response Oldguy, Brian and Don.
Brian, when I got to work this morning I couln't remember my HTT password, so I could not check for any responses here so I called your shop. Talked to Andrew, asked him this question and a few more. He was very patient with me, made sure I understood his answers and said not to hesitate to call back if I had any other questions. He is a great guy to talk to. Thanks.
                                                                                      Brian

[strokerjlk]

The beauty of this type system is that it allows the OEM system to do what it was designed to do in the first place.  Just better and more efficiently.  What I mean by this is that all the factory safeguards to prevent the system from “running away” with itself and adapting to a lethal lean setting are still there.  This is just one of the reasons that we took this approach for this product.  There are also strategies in place from our perspective to buffer this even more.  The system has only so much authority to lean itself out before it begins to recognize that the incoming data is inappropriate.  At this time it clips and enters open loop “safe” mode and you will know it. 

if you could elaborate on this some. I understand if you cant for obvious reasons.
I have seen the stock ECM, closed loop system drive it's self lean. So the question is what makes your system diff when operating in closed loop?
again I understand if you cant or wont, give a complex answer. just wondering.
if you have devised a system to overcome this,it will be a hit.

[mike 120]

Haven't installed it yet but unreal turn around time, sent out Monday am, at my door 930 this am! Real nice job modifying the Softail ECM caddy. Sent a second one out today, will start the first install this week and will report on that.
Mike

[mike5511]

No posts since March 2nd. .......BUMP.

[mike 120]

Have about 300 miles on mine now, bike has never ran as well,(never pro tuned on a dyno but several hours and miles with TSII, which can be dangerous on street trust me) depending on condition, occasionally get a pop on decel, bike fires up great hot or cold, idles evenly, probably the biggest improvement is low rpm throttle response and the hiccup I couldn't get rid of at low rpm low load at mid 2k rpm.

[mike5511]

Thanks for the update.  I installed one a few weeks ago and between work and rain/flood have not gotten to ride it yet.  I'm checking about 5 different boards reading everything I can and hoping for the same positive results! (This coming Saturday is looking good for a test run of a 100 or so miles......fingers crossed!)

[turboprop]

Would like to see comparison runs that depict an EMS tune and a TTS tune done done by a pro. Similar to the one Stroker put up recently. I am skeptical about the ability of the EMS thing to magically auto tune better than anything else. Unlike RP, Zippers has a much more solid reputation and their Thundermax w/Autotune is far from optimal. Aside from a lower price, I fail to see any advantage with the EMS unit compared to other units on the market. Am I missing something here?

[wurk_truk]

Cannot do this.  One can NOT adjust nor tune an EMS.   Putting on a dyno is ALL one can do.  So, for that we would need the same bike and two Delphis... one an EMS and the other gets tuned on the dyno.

[mayor]

I don't think it would be a fair contest anyway.  I think a good tuner that knows what they're doing should be able to trump any "auto-tune" device on the market today, especially if that tuner has a way of measuring engine output (dyno).  The reason I feel this way is the "auto-tunes" only adjust one side of the tuning equation (fuel) and leave the other (timing) a constant regardless. 

[turboprop]

Cannot do this.  One can NOT adjust nor tune an EMS.   Putting on a dyno is ALL one can do.  So, for that we would need the same bike and two Delphis... one an EMS and the other gets tuned on the dyno.

Thats what I meant. Let the EMS do whatever it does, run it, record the results, then change the Delphi unit and tune it with TTS. My guess is that everyone that knows the capabilities of each tuning device knows the TTS will outperform the EMS. The question is how much is the difference between the two tunes.

[Sc00ter]

I think one reason the EMS gets so many rave reviews from satisfied customers is because there are so many marginal/lousy tuners out there.

I have no doubt that the TTS or similar tuning device, in the hands of a competent tuner, will provide a superior result than any of the auto tune devices.  It would be no contest.

The bottom line  - and a marketing rationale - behind the auto tuning devices is the lack of really capable tuners in many parts of the country...

[rbabos]

I think one reason the EMS gets so many rave reviews from satisfied customers is because there are so many marginal/lousy tuners out there.

I have no doubt that the TTS or similar tuning device, in the hands of a competent tuner, will provide a superior result than any of the auto tune devices.  It would be no contest.

The bottom line  - and a marketing rationale - behind the auto tuning devices is the lack of really capable tuners in many parts of the country...

This is one of the most accurate statements I've read here . I've yet to find a capable tuner in Southern Ontario, let alone one that works with TTS.
Dealer tunes and auto tuners or PC lead the pack and from what I see always will.
Ron

[mike 120]

No question a custom tune using SERT or TTS would be the way to go if you are fortunate enough to have a true pro tune your build, and you did your build components one time, but for the majority riding our HD's on the street, the EMS is a great
alternative IMO

[strokerjlk]

Let the EMS do whatever it does, run it, record the results

it would be interesting to just see this.
I don't think there is any doubt a good dyno tune with other devices will net a better WOT run.
I haven't seen any dyno sheets from a EMS.
come on guys throw them on the dyno for just 5-6 pulls . and post them up.
back to sniffing the EMS.....surely someone has done this also
gear-head enough  to build these nice motors and not run them through a shop for a few pulls and maybe sample a few areas? some of you are on your 2nd 3rd tuning device. you know you want to know?

[turboprop]

Seems to me that the majority of people singing the praise of the EMS are content to accept to mediocrity. JMHO.

[rbabos]

Seems to me that the majority of people singing the praise of the EMS are content to accept to mediocrity. JMHO.

Could be, but without a dyno, additional afr equipment and a vast amount of tuning knowledge that's what you get with any of them. Vtuning a high output engine on the road sure as hell won't get you there. It can get you close but plenty of room for improvement.
Ron

[FLTRI]

...Vtuning a high output engine on the road sure as hell won't get you there.
Ron

Is this based on experience v-tuning high output engines or is this something you heard?

Steve's pal installed a HD120 and successfully v-tuned it on the street and gets 40+mpg without any negatives.

A bit of common sense goes a long way choosing calibrations and using v-tune.
IE: if the engine backfires/spits through the intake and falls on its face just trying to get it off the line...that calibration is probably not the one to use.

Bob

[mike 120]

Seems to me that the majority of people singing the praise of the EMS are content to accept to mediocrity. JMHO.

Everyone seems to be of the opinion that whatever they do is what everyone else should do also, but that statement of mediocrity is pretty broad statement IMO,but again if you don't have a proficient tuner nearby, is half a tune with a TTS or SERT mediocrity also?

[Don D]

Just am finishing a touring trip in Canada. 1k miles on the 117. Averaged 38mpg and hit 42 when not loaded and just 2 up. No major issues, but one small annoyance. I will be sending it in for a tweak. I am happy NOT to know or give a crap about the AFR, AFV and all the other acronyms nor do I care about a few hp lost or gained (I have ~100tq at 3% THROTTLE at 2k rpm in third gear measured on  dyno), I have plenty , I am riding to enjoy and that is happening. Motor and we are safe.
Could a tuner do better custom tune, yes some of them and many more not and even more owner tunes not.
I don't think it is fair to compare a good pro tune to the EMS product.

[mike 120]

 

Just am finishing a touring trip in Canada. 1k miles on the 117. Averaged 38mpg and hit 42 when not loaded and just 2 up. No major issues, but one small annoyance. I will be sending it in for a tweak. I am happy NOT to know or give a crap about the AFR, AFV and all the other acronyms nor do I care about a few hp lost or gained (I have ~100tq at 3% THROTTLE at 2k rpm in third gear measured on  dyno), I have plenty , I am riding to enjoy and that is happening. Motor and we are safe.
Could a tuner do better custom tune, yes some of them and many more not and even more owner tunes not.
I don't think it is fair to compare a good pro tune to the EMS product.

[mike5511]

Just am finishing a touring trip in Canada. 1k miles on the 117. Averaged 38mpg and hit 42 when not loaded and just 2 up. No major issues, but one small annoyance. I will be sending it in for a tweak. I am happy NOT to know or give a crap about the AFR, AFV and all the other acronyms nor do I care about a few hp lost or gained (I have ~100tq at 3% THROTTLE at 2k rpm in third gear measured on  dyno), I have plenty , I am riding to enjoy and that is happening. Motor and we are safe.
Could a tuner do better custom tune, yes some of them and many more not and even more owner tunes not.
I don't think it is fair to compare a good pro tune to the EMS product.

That is how I feel as well.....
Curious as to what your one "small annoyance" is.

[Ken R]

So what's the difference between a "good acceptable" tune and a "great" tune?  (especally since none of the tools available make adjustments to ignition timing)

And it looks like we're getting back to comparing MPG as it relates to tune effectiveness, a favorite subject of mine.  Once the motor is off the dyno, isn't that all we have available for comparison or satisfaction that our motors are tuned well?   Comparing WOT dynographs only illustrate one condition . . . .MAP=100, and I don't believe any tuning tool addresses this regime.

Ken

[Don D]

My small annoynance doesn't need to be published here, wish I could but the reality is there are factions that want to see the EMS fail and see these sort of things as a bloody fish in shark infested waters. No thanks, REV are good folks and they will take care of it. I will publish after the fix

[Steve Cole]

So what's the difference between a "good acceptable" tune and a "great" tune?  (especally since none of the tools available make adjustments to ignition timing)

And it looks like we're getting back to comparing MPG as it relates to tune effectiveness, a favorite subject of mine.  Once the motor is off the dyno, isn't that all we have available for comparison or satisfaction that our motors are tuned well?   Comparing WOT dynographs only illustrate one condition . . . .MAP=100, and I don't believe any tuning tool addresses this regime.

Ken

Any system that uses O2 sensors is subject to the same good and bad points. Doesn't matter if it's Broad Band, Switching or Real Wide bands. If they are not tested, installed properly and used per the OEM manufactures specifications the results are not going to be good. The exhaust systems out there today leave a lot to be desired when it comes to proper placement of the sensors let alone any testing to make sure they perform properly. When it comes to the timing side of things the setup is as good as the tuner that put the values in place. Some ECM's are capable of removing timing and learning that information and others are not. So what it boils down to is no different in the long run and that is how good does the tune that was placed in the ECM by "XYZ" company matches what you have. The better the match the better your bike is going to run. NO system is capable of adjusting itself into good running unless the base tune installed into the ECM is close to start with, just the way it is.

[wurk_truk]

I see a couple of real good pluses with the EMS.  I see a few glaring minuses with the EMS.  I'm of the opinion that some of those minuses are possibly the installers fault to a decent degree.  Try as I might to think otherwise, I feel that EMS is a decent choice for a whole bunch of folks.  Depends what one is after.  I give Don props for putting one on a 117.

A pro tune would win hands down, IMHO.  That would be a GOOD pro tune, though.  A GOOD DIYer tune would also win, but then it becomes what one likes to fiddle with.  Taking us here on HTT out of the picture and just thinking of the average dude?..... how many, does anyone believe, really, tunes a home brew like say Mayor?  Or me even?  EMS HAS a spot in all of this tuning crap.  Just depends on the owner saying what build he exactly has, and the 'hope' is Brian has a decent map for that combo.   Just like base cals, Brian cannot cover every combo folks can dream up, not do I expect him to.

I agree with Steve Cole on O2 placement and depth one million percent!. I feel that if a system is using O2s or is even just using O2s IN A BUNG HOLEO WHILE TUNING with an AFR tuner.....  the placement and depth is critical for best results.

After a bunch of reading on the subject of O2s.  How they operate in an exhaust stream, asking both Steve and FBRR dumb and decent questions...  I am CONVINCED that truly most folks do NOT check the O2 placement and depth when buying and installing new pipes and ANY tuning device.  Some of us here do... sure.  Go to HDF, and those guys talk a good game but few really do this.  Go to CVO, same thing.

The further away from totally stock the engine AND exhaust is... the more critical this is.  TTS and SEPST users have to deal with AFVs whacking a tune, right?  Well, I'm sure EMS has the same issues... and any tuner can suffer from bad O2 syndrome.

Making sure one has the best O2 placement as possible has been shown time and again how important this is.  Timtoolman is the most recent member to show this... he was going to throw away whatever pipes he had, but... on a whim... checked the O2s.  Guess what?  Crap placement from the MFG.  Shrouded sensor (mfg uses a punch instead of a drill for the initial holes in the pipe), sensor not deep enough, sensor hole not matching the bung hole dia.   Sam-ole-same-ole

[Reddog74usa]

Read the entire post and it sounds like the RP ems is a great plug n play. I have had bikes dyno tuned and have had them come back running very rich and had to dial in the cruise circuts on the carbs myself. If you don't have access to a good tuner the EMS unit looks like a winner to me. 

[Thumper Buttercup]

If it works, it did not for us.

[ric27]

If it works, it did not for us.

OK, So what is you story? What did you use it on and what happened or didn't happen?

[Thumper Buttercup]

Short Version, all it did was dump so much fuel that of 7 test rides 5 of them we
had to dump the oil because of so much fuel.

Never got any good gas mileage, unless you babied the throttle and kept the rpms
low you smelled fuel.

Almost runied a new build had CCP of 185 on a fresh build, rear dropped down to
160 and the front down to 170.

Went to the TTS and It looks like we had a bad ECM that we purchaced from Rev Perf. They even came here, Josh said the bike ran like a dog.

Tried for all of June and July and part of August to get this bike to run with their
system.

With the TTS we finished the break in ccp of 180 front and rear, a lot more
of the story but you get the jest.

This was a brand new build Rev-Perf did our crank (so far a great job engine is
smooth).

04 FLHTCUI
HEADS REWORKED BY LARRY'S MACHINE
NEW PISTONS AND CYLINDERS FRESH BORE 95 CU.

EVERY PART IN THE ENGINE REPLACE BUT THE MAIN
BEARINGS, TIMKEN UPGRADE DONE.  THE ONLY PART
NOT CHANGED WAS THE ROCKER ARMS AND THEIR SUPPORTS.

EVEN UPGRADED THE ELECTRICAL TO THE THREE PHASE 50 AMP
SYSTEM BY CYCLE ELECTRIC.

HIPPO UPGRADE FOR THE HYD TENSONORS AND ANDREWS 48N
CAMS, SE CAM PLATE INSTALLED.

ALL NEW ENGINE SENSORS AND INJECTORS INSTALLED.

Since running the TTS the gas mileage has jumped up and no gas
in the oil once.  Bike runs great, never better, even sounds better,
the wife and I are totally happy with the new system and the way
the bike finally runs!!!!

[turboprop]

I don't mean to put words in your mouth, but can I assume you have talked to the people at RevPerf about this? I am interested in hearing their response to this.

[Thumper Buttercup]

We talked several time a week at times and e-mailed back and forth.

Brian and Josh came here and Josh worked on the bike for several
hours, but in the end it still did not run right.

Pull the plugs, pull the 02's it looked like we were running coal not
gas.  There are a lot of facts but the bike never run right, as in
performed in all riding from easy to interstate.

Brian is a nice guy and came out they went out of their way to help us
but their system did not work with us.

In the end they refunded the cost of the EMS unit.

[mike 120]

Was it a faulty EMS or the actual ECM that was bad?

[Thumper Buttercup]

Mike, I'm guessing the ECM was bad all a long, there is more that
but I'm not going there.  When we loaded up the TTS we had all
kinds of errors and most of them were the engine sensors like our
harness was messed up.

We pulled the tank and manually did a check of all our grounds on
the harness and all checked out good.  My wife ( the jet engine mech )
said lets put the old 04 ecm on and see if any errors show up.  We did
that and no errors.

We are rolling with the TTS and not looking back.  When we pulled the
unit to send it back our 02's and plugs looked like they did every time
we checked them, black as coal and fouled up looking.

We wanted a few more answers but we got tired of having the bike down
while having to ship the EMS back or all the work we were doing trying to
troubleshoot the system.  I lost count of the times we pulled the exhaust and the
plugs did compression tests and then dumping all the oil in the bike and the
crash bar oil cooler we are running.  We did not like the thought that we
might have to re do the pistons and cylinders also.

We gave this system a honest test and it did not work for us.  We worked with
Rev-Perf and they came here to check the bike.  Josh hooked up their computer
system and rode the bike.  Josh's impression was the bike was not running right.
That day on a short run up and down the road it pulled great but a real road test
showed it was still running way too rich and washing down our cylinders with gas.