New Tuner - Rev Performance Precision EMS Wide Band Unit

[oldguy]

The question I have is can the bike still be data logged by systems such at the twinscan or a digital tech to troubleshoot should problems arise in the various sensor outputs?

I don't see why not - the connector for data logging is still free after hooking up the precision unit, and the ecu function remains the same as stock.

[BVHOG]

Found my answer to the data logging question in the FAQ's, the other question I have is are the other ecm features like Power enrichment mode and ion knock sensing still active?  Who sets the rev limit?

[revperf]

Found my answer to the data logging question in the FAQ's, the other question I have is are the other ecm features like Power enrichment mode and ion knock sensing still active?  Who sets the rev limit?

BV,

Glad you found your answer.  We are constantly updating the FAQ's so if there is ever something that needs to be there we will gladly add it.  BTW, to others, the answer is yes to the TwinScan and Digital Tech with regards to data and/or DTC collection and clearance.  The question regarding the PE mode and Ion Knock Sensing is a bit more complicated than just yes.  The PE mode is still active but is re-configured to a fail safe rather than a potential power hampering feature.  In other words, yes it is there, but it will not manifest itself as a negative in, say, a dyno pull or a quarter mile pass.  The knock sensing is also still active, but again, is configured in such a way as to not allow it to just pull and pull timing in a "runaway" fashion.  I guess to sum it up, all the features that are a good thing are there.  They are just manipulated in such a way as to be as purely beneficial as they possibly can.  The rev limit is set by us at the time of ECM modification.  We set the limiter to 6500 unless we are notified by the customer that he/she would like something different.  If you want something higher or lower it is easily accommodated. 

Brian

[wurk_truk]

I'm wondering about the open loop mode, also.  I, also, don't feel open loop is a bad thing.

[revperf]

Stroker,

Thanks for the question.  Our product is a dynamic, adaptive, wide-band closed loop system.  When we shoot for 14.0-14.2 AFR at cruise we are using feedback from the wide-band O2 sensors, as well as other inputs, to automatically tune the motorcycle to that AFR value.  Think of our system as acting just like the stock closed loop system with the narrow band O2 sensors with the exception that we are using wide band sensors which lets us control AFR precisely over the entire operation range of the motorcycle, not just a small area.  This is why there are many testimonials as to bikes running much better right from the start.  Because the system can identify and correct for AFR shifts throughout the rpm and load range almost instantly; this system has benefited many customers with bikes with unstable idles, tip in complaints, and AFR instabilities in the light load cruise range that can be very hard to tune.  Because the system is constantly levelizing the VE tables in the background for the environment that the bike is operating in, the open loop tables can be accessed instantly should the closed loop feedback become skewed beyond what the ECM recognizes as a normal operating parameter.  Again, all these things can be accomplished with systems like the TTS and others.  We are just trying to provide a product for people who do not want to tune the bike themselves but still want comparable results in a plug and play fashion.  There was another question regarding the wide-band sensors remaining installed in the vehicle.  Yes, this is a dynamic system and the wide-band O2 sensors are continuously being used to check and adjust the state of tune of the vehicle.  The OEM sensors are no longer used.  The next question, a lot of times, is “Well, what if they fail?”  The answer to this is that if you should fail a sensor then the ECM will sense it and will revert into an open loop fail-safe mode and carry on until you replace the sensor.  As soon as you do it will go adaptive once again and you are on your way.     

Brian

[eddfive]

Is there a Utility or procedure with this system to "free air" calibrate the LSU sensors?

[TXChop]

Ed..There is an adjustment pot for it/them. Brain said they calibrate them at the time of packaging. If they need to be done again, you can just like a twin scan+.

Brian do you have any afr charts from dyno testing to share. I saw the one dyno on your site, but thats all i have seen.

Also, i read on another forum it runs in open loop(from the base map) on hard acceleration, rapid decel and cold idle, is that correct?

[TXChop]

[Don D]

Good questions chop I don't know about open VS closed loop. I suspect the O2 s are being used all the time. Brian will answer I am sure.
A while back somebody mentioned the DTT Wego system. Even though the hardware is completely differant (except the sensors) the premise is similar, but much more sophisticated as speed density and ion sensing are there to help the learning process. It needs widebands to tune to the target WOT AFR range. It uses all the Delphi features and they are reprogramed to work and are leveraged to benefit of a performance platform and offer a fairly wide window of adaptability to learn after mods are made, if not extreme such as a major motor size change. Same for the timing. The adaptive features are used to learn and pull back to safe but not huge amounts more and not in a choppy fashion that can affect rideability. All of these features are in the Delphi but not programed to work in this fashion with the stock or aftermarket tuners or in some cases they are programed in the same manor but the adaptive features are lower tier. This is my understanding of the product based on several conversations with Brian.
I calibrated the free air and it was as simple as falling out of bed. Took all of 1 minute then I covered the pots with tape.

[Jamie Long]

Brian, it is stated the the system can adjust for +/- 20% variance in displacement without changing the calibration and that you can use the same calibration for a stock 96" motor as a 103" Stage II build although there are very different requirements for both combinations from an airflow model and igntion timing standpoint. There are big differences in VE's based on just a cam swap on a 96" motor, and when changing the displacement, compression ratio, and cams there are huge differences in not only VE, but igntion timing requirements and several other aspects of the calibration. With that being said how large % wise are the actual AFV's window of adjustment in the EMS calibration?

[revperf]

Chop,

Essentially you are right with regards to the open loop during these particular areas but it is only for a specific period of time and then system reverts to closed loop.

Jamie,

I understand, with you being in your line of work, how you might have questions and/or concerns about how it would be possible for this to happen and what the percentage of swing that the system can handle vs. some of the products that you carry.  Dan Thompson with Hotshot Motorworks voiced exactly the same skeptism when he installed our system on his bone stock (not even an AC kit) 2009 96" 'Glide.  He just got back from a round trip to Florida with the engine built now as a 103", .615" cams, 10.5:1CR, big valve ported heads, and a full aftermarket exhaust.  The system took about 5-8 minutes from initial start up to dial itself in to the new combination and got well over 40mpg two up there and back.  Without getting into proprietary areas, and given your experience, the information that I supplied about this real-world execution of the product should answer your questions about it's capabilities.  Make no mistake, it does have it's limitations but we make every effort to insulate the customer from that happening.  Also, when in doubt about whether or not it can handle a particular scenario just pick up the phone and call our toll free number.


Brian

[sportygordy]

I noticed they were reprograming the ECM and was reviewing the installation pdf. on the RevPerf website and noticed they made reference to free air calibration, and the appearance of the controller resembled a DTT product. It just looked like Chris Shroeder's handywork. Even if they are unrelated it does look similar to a DTT WEGO device to me. Keep us posted as to how it performs, always interested in new products.

Yes it does look like his work... i know he was working on something last year to go HTH, then decided he did not like the liability issues messing the the DBW stuff and kind of side tracked it.... (got a few friends in Daytona that kind of kept track of this) Maybe this is his way of 'bringining it on' If Chris's hands are in it,, it's got to be good stuff  pretty sure Chris is on this board (?? alias) and speaks quite often wonder if he would if he will discuss... I don't think so,,,Darn,,, ... Just speculating folks... 

[Don D]

It creates a slipery slope to assume DTT had any connection to this product and my assumption is no such connection, and quite frankly I don't care what the behind the scenes is, I have a owner rider hat on and from that vantage point the product has been very good for me so far. I will report more when the snow melts.

[revperf]

No slippery slope at all.  When we went looking for an O2 interpreter interface we wanted three things.  American made (rather spend our money here than send it over the pond), quality components and a proven system.  Chris Schroeder is a great engineer and we have used this piece for years in our dyno lab and they were willing to manufacture it to our specs.  No different than Thunderheart Performance working with the T-Max system and building their components for them.

Brian

[Ken R]

It creates a slipery slope to assume DTT had any connection to this product and my assumption is no such connection, and quite frankly I don't care what the behind the scenes is, I have a owner rider hat on and from that vantage point the product has been very good for me so far. I will report more when the snow melts.

This thread is really interesting.  I'm really pleased that Brian takes the time to answer all the questions on this very public forum.  This is a tough audience with a lot of people that tune for a living (as well as those that market competing products).  Kudos to Brian.  I've also been going through his podcasts, one by one.  I'm just a very inquisitive end user. 

I'd like to see a VE table comparison between a motor that has been self-tuned with this product and then a typical wide band sensor dyno tune.  Or at least see a graph with a sensed AFR compared to the command to see how they track. 

If one wanted to tinker with timing or other parameters via one of the other ECM gateway products, would this product adjust the VEs accordingly?

[FLTRI]

If one wanted to tinker with timing or other parameters via one of the other ECM gateway products, would this product adjust the VEs accordingly?

Ken,
Since the ECM is reprogrammed with a revperf calibration, using another recalibration software to make any changes would overwrite the revperf calibration therefore nullifying any and all changes made by the revperf system...ie: the closed loop operation using broadband sensors.
I'm certain you could send your ECM back to revperf and they will make timing, etc changes for you. Would be interesting to know if there would be a charge for this/
Bob
PS - Thanks to Brian for offering his time and tech answers.

[revperf]

Bob,

No charge for the touch-up if necessary.  If it is an upgrade such as the customer has built a big motor outside the parameters of the original cal or made an injector change to a different set then still no charge except for the freight. 

Brian

[Don D]

I think this product has the potential to be a game changer. It does deliver what others have promised the proverbial "self tuner". The groundwork has been laid but there has really not been that product yet. Closest may be the Tmax and guys are tweaking that all the time as they are the others. The forums become the best support for some of these products and experienced users input. Being that this is a paradigm shift I think the want and need to have access and tinker is best forgotten or the product has not achieved the goal of a "self tuner".

Got to ask can I get on the bike and ride and forget issues and it is fun to ride, gets acceptable mileage, accelerates smoothly, has good throttle response and manors, and doesn't ping or overheat?? Assuming the build has the right mechanical parameters to cooperate with the software then this product has achieved success. The HP and TQ need to be somewhat close to optimum but I would not expect that every time when compared to a custom tune done by some of the best tuners around the country. If you have to spend hours on the net and have a bunch of PMs with the more experienced users and have laptops out and all that or even send the ECU back several times which would be the case here then this product has failed.

I would expect guys that have competitors' products and investments or the vendors themselves to offer push-back (hopefully in a business like professional way) but really this is a parallel product not a 100% straight across the board replacement. There still is a place for the guy that wants a custom tune and use the product of choice for that. This is the "plug & play" device based on my limited experience with it.

[BVHOG]

Ok, one more question, it was stated that a tts type unit could still be used.  So, could a guy like Don for example that I happen to know still has a tts unit that produced less than satisfactory results still have any use with this system.
Lets say he has a roll on ping at 2250 rpm on a hot day, could the tts be used to change the timing only assuming the same base cal was used as the startup or does this system use a completely different type of starting cal that can only be adjusted by revperf.  BTW, from past experience, DTT has made some great products and has always treated me great when I needed customer service.  I do find it a bit hard to speak to him (Chris)at times as I don't think he realizes we don't all have the same level of computer/tuner knowledge as himself.

[FLTRI]

Bob,

No charge for the touch-up if necessary.  If it is an upgrade such as the customer has built a big motor outside the parameters of the original cal or made an injector change to a different set then still no charge except for the freight. 

Brian

Thanks Brian and  Happy New Year!!
Bob

[strokerjlk]

No slippery slope at all.  When we went looking for an O2 interpreter interface we wanted three things.  American made (rather spend our money here than send it over the pond), quality components and a proven system.  Chris Schroeder is a great engineer and we have used this piece for years in our dyno lab and they were willing to manufacture it to our specs.  No different than Thunderheart Performance working with the T-Max system and building their components for them.

Brian

I admire your honest here. get it out in the open. thanks.
In all my conversations with Chris,I have found him to be very knowledgeable, no BS,and brutally honest. Alan is a stand up guy in my book also.
Great product with great customer service/tech support.when a engineer gives you his cell phone number so you can reach him anytime,that speaks volumes to me.


Brian thanks for clearing up my questions.
one more.....could or can a user make the adjustment to select open loop,once the tune is finalised?
so really my question is . can I select a determined /targeted AFR. and once that is achieved,somehow disable the "learn" "AFV"? or if once the data is collected using your canned map,then the unit is sent back to you. could the consumer ask for a Desired AFR ,then you could use the data to configure a open loop map as requested? now when the unit is sent back to the user ,could the ECU be re flashed (open loop) and the sensors removed?
If the "Learn" of this system could work as described,IT WOULD BE A BIG HIT! my skepticism is fueled by the stock ECM closed loop system coupled with other aftermarket  tuners not always operating as described when the ECM is left in closed loop, allowing the AFV'S to remain active.
thanks for you answers to my previous questions.

OK I am going to make my next request. in talking with Chris in the past we have discussed this very technology.
I realise that by doing this type of venture your going to keep sort of a corner on the market, if it satisfies the consumers and always works as describes.
but I have wanted this type of system for dyno tuners to use. so is there a chance in the future you could market a version for dyno tuners to use having access to make the changes from this systems data, or from our methods of collecting data. because as we all know there is always going to be gains to be had, from using a dyno to determine what AFR and timing makes each and every build "happy" Thanks.

[Don D]

All good questions Jim
To clarify the "sliperly slope" statement what I meant is throwing the baby out with the bathwater so to speak. The DTT was not a satisfactory product for me and I worked hard to get it to work. The interface box however was flawless as is the Twin Scan I have used.

[Steve Cole]

You guys are mixing up terms and it does make a difference. One term is "Learning" while another term is "Adjusting" These are NOT one in the same in the ECM. Adjusting real time and learning real time are very different. So you can have one without the other, or both at the same time.

[BVHOG]

You guys are mixing up terms and it does make a difference. One term is "Learning" while another term is "Adjusting" These are NOT one in the same in the ECM. Adjusting real time and learning real time are very different. So you can have one without the other, or both at the same time.

So what do you think Steve, are the broadbands capable.............or not?

[lonewolf]

a tts unit that produced less than satisfactory results

It might not be the tool but the guy using it. Glad your bike is running better Don.