New Tuner - Rev Performance Precision EMS Wide Band Unit

[Steve Cole]

You guys are mixing up terms and it does make a difference. One term is "Learning" while another term is "Adjusting" These are NOT one in the same in the ECM. Adjusting real time and learning real time are very different. So you can have one without the other, or both at the same time.

So what do you think Steve, are the broadbands capable.............or not?

This thread or post is about Brians new product not about what a broadband will or will not do. That subject has been gone over many times before and I think everyone knows where I stand on it. If your asking will the ECM work with a wide band or broad band sensor the answer is yes. It has been built into the HD ECM since 2005 and the code has been in place all along, just need to turn the switching sensor off and the wide bands on. Anyone every wonder why the O2 voltage range is what it is?

[BVHOG]

You guys are mixing up terms and it does make a difference. One term is "Learning" while another term is "Adjusting" These are NOT one in the same in the ECM. Adjusting real time and learning real time are very different. So you can have one without the other, or both at the same time.

So what do you think Steve, are the broadbands capable.............or not?

This thread or post is about Brians new product not about what a broadband will or will not do. That subject has been gone over many times before and I think everyone knows where I stand on it. If your asking will the ECM work with a wide band or broad band sensor the answer is yes. It has been built into the HD ECM since 2005 and the code has been in place all along, just need to turn the switching sensor off and the wide bands on. Anyone every wonder why the O2 voltage range is what it is?

That's interesting info, makes you wonder why it took so long for this technology to make it to market.

[revperf]

Stroker,

Everything evolves.  This process is by no means static and time will tell. 

BV,

Because, respectfully and as Steve has said repeatedly in the past with regards to some aspects of his own product, it is simply not as easy as flipping a bit and things work seamlessly.  This thread has been, so far, a great question and answer forum.  I really don't want to see it degrade into a back and forth about the merits of two manufacturer's products.  I have not, and will not go back and forth with an acidic "ours vs. theirs" dialogue regarding the inner workings of the different systems.  Especially Steve's.  As a manufacturer it would be classless to start a dialogue of “Okay guys, this is how they do it.” regardless of whether we know, think we know, or don’t know and being in the business as long as Steve has I know he feels the same way.  As I have said many times before, Steve has a great tuning product with a LOT of power behind it.  If you are tuning the bike yourself or if you are a professional tuner I highly endorse it.  If you don't then hopefully we can earn your business.  The world is a big place and there is plenty of room.   

Brian

[hotroadking]

Wow Civility in a tuner software thread LOL

Next you know we'll have a decent oil and
dyna beads thread here LOL

[strokerjlk]

Stroker,

Everything evolves.  This process is by no means static and time will tell.

ok I think I know what that means.
so can it be switched to all open loop if desired?

[TXP]

Thanks for answering my question about DTT involvement with your product Brian. When you've spent a lifetime in the industry you get to meet and know a lot of folks and become familiar with their work. In the fuel injection/ECM side of things there just aren't that many good reliable sources out there. Chris is one of those good reliable sources and will discuss any EFI issue with you at length at the shows. LOL,, that is if he senses you understand what he's talking about. He gets a little frustrated when he thinks you have no idea what he's saying and clams up. Sorry, but thats a funny thing to watch. He's really a good guy. It's really difficult for those few guys out there like Chris and Steve for example, who have a very advanced level of knowledge, to take a step back and try and translate that information to the general public or even "tuners" for that matter. Good luck with your new product, I'm sure there will be a market for it.

[Dennis The Menace]

Stroker, just my opinion, but if you have a EMS on your bike, you should be content to leave it alone.  If you still want to look at things or tweak some parameters, then in my opinion get a TTS or SESPT to make the mods you feel you need.  I had a EMS on my 07 RG because I didnt want to mess with anything anymore--just ride it and forget about it.

To me, EMS is like a HD download (only much better!) in that you set it, and forget it.  If you want to mess with anything, then get a product that lets you tune/adjust the bike how you wish.

However, its good to ask Brian questions here, or on the phone, to determine if they can mod the ECM to make it work better for you application.  But, its not a product that is intended for end user access/mods.

Absolutely nothing wrong with your question, and I hope I dont offend you with my answer.  Just trying to help others understand this product, as an early adopter.

Dennis

[BVHOG]

Stroker,

Everything evolves.  This process is by no means static and time will tell. 

BV,

Because, respectfully and as Steve has said repeatedly in the past with regards to some aspects of his own product, it is simply not as easy as flipping a bit and things work seamlessly.  This thread has been, so far, a great question and answer forum.  I really don't want to see it degrade into a back and forth about the merits of two manufacturer's products.  I have not, and will not go back and forth with an acidic "ours vs. theirs" dialogue regarding the inner workings of the different systems.  Especially Steve's.  As a manufacturer it would be classless to start a dialogue of “Okay guys, this is how they do it.” regardless of whether we know, think we know, or don’t know and being in the business as long as Steve has I know he feels the same way.  As I have said many times before, Steve has a great tuning product with a LOT of power behind it.  If you are tuning the bike yourself or if you are a professional tuner I highly endorse it.  If you don't then hopefully we can earn your business.  The world is a big place and there is plenty of room.   

Brian

No problem Brian, I have used the TTS many times myself and it is no doubt a great ecm access product.  But this threads about your new product so once again more questions. Since we have heard from others here that the broad band sensors are not compatible or accurate when used in a Harley application what would your reply to that be. We have heard that they do not operate accurately due to pressure and temp parameters being out of the Bosch specifications in this application. I will say that using them as a tuning tool I have never witnessed that or had any problems associated with this supposed issue. Is this anything to worry about with the various exhaust configurations that may be used for your system?

[strokerjlk]

Stroker, just my opinion, but if you have a EMS on your bike, you should be content to leave it alone.  If you still want to look at things or tweak some parameters, then in my opinion get a TTS or SESPT to make the mods you feel you need.  I had a EMS on my 07 RG because I didnt want to mess with anything anymore--just ride it and forget about it.

To me, EMS is like a HD download (only much better!) in that you set it, and forget it.  If you want to mess with anything, then get a product that lets you tune/adjust the bike how you wish.

However, its good to ask Brian questions here, or on the phone, to determine if they can mod the ECM to make it work better for you application.  But, its not a product that is intended for end user access/mods.

Absolutely nothing wrong with your question, and I hope I dont offend you with my answer.  Just trying to help others understand this product, as an early adopter.

Dennis

no problem Dennis
I just want to know.....if the user wanted to run a open loop map,is it possible? collect the data send the thing back and request Brian or whoever to use the data to create a open loop map ,send it back and install. no sensors (any kind) collecting data anymore ,just a open loop map .

[FLTRI]

...I just want to know.....if the user wanted to run a open loop map,is it possible? collect the data send the thing back and request Brian or whoever to use the data to create a open loop map ,send it back and install. no sensors (any kind) collecting data anymore ,just a open loop map .

Just curious, why would you want to revert back to yesteryear's technology that can not/will not adapt to changes, especially in fuels/quality?
Bob

[strokerjlk]

...I just want to know.....if the user wanted to run a open loop map,is it possible? collect the data send the thing back and request Brian or whoever to use the data to create a open loop map ,send it back and install. no sensors (any kind) collecting data anymore ,just a open loop map .

Just curious, why would you want to revert back to yesteryear's technology that can not/will not adapt to changes, especially in fuels/quality?
Bob

you already know why!
I asked a question ,just want a answer. if you know the answer ...post it up.

[mike 120]

Would be great to see professionally tuned highly modified engine dyno chart of a known build  and then purposely skew those ve tables and road ride with this Rev Perf EMS then redyno for comparison. That should put peak number issue to rest, street driveability is a different story, would depend on individual feedback, interesting product that should do well if there aren't any reliability issues over time.

[revperf]

Stroker,

It comes down to the fact that what you are asking for is really outside the premise of why and for what purpose we designed the product. In the case of what you are wanting to do I would probably steer you towards the TTS. I am not trying to discourage you as you seem like you might have a geniune need for what you are asking for. It's just that in this case there are probably better tools for your particular instance there than ours.

Brian

[Jeffd]

Seems like it is going to be a very nice product for people like me, who just want to ride and are not interested in chasing every last ounce of power, but instead want a great running, good mpg getting machine without the fuss or know how. 

[wurk_truk]

What makes me happy is this...  finally... the consumer is going to have some choices for tuning his personal bike.  2011 is looking to be the year the consumer gets a LOT more choices and THAT is a great thing for sure!!!!!

Jeff hit the nail right on the head.  A LOT of folks want what he stated.

Don... as time goes by, could you make new posts and update us on your thoughts?  TIA.

[strokerjlk]

Stroker,

It comes down to the fact that what you are asking for is really outside the premise of why and for what purpose we designed the product. In the case of what you are wanting to do I would probably steer you towards the TTS. I am not trying to discourage you as you seem like you might have a geniune need for what you are asking for. It's just that in this case there are probably better tools for your particular instance there than ours.

Brian

I am just wanting to know if your product is capable of doing this. I dont have a need for this particular product. I tune bikes so I wouldnt ever have a need to use one. what I do see happening is someone asking for my help. I think there could be a problem with some builds. If your product has the capability to do this I could save them some money rather than sell them a new tuner and dyno tune there bike. I can see some bikes having problems down the road.
let me put it this way ...as you know not all builds will give accurate AFR readings (no matter what sensors we use) so we as tuners have to interrupt corrupt data and make changes to overcome this. for instance high compression,cams with huge overlap,and pipes with reversion. so if you run a closed loop tune or auto tune, that is  analyzing data and some of that data is corrupt,it will skew other areas (open and closed loop) so why would I want to turn a bike loose that I know a closed loop portion of the map is skewing the rest of the map. I have seen it and so have many other tuners. now instead of taking someones money by talking them into a new tuner and tune ,I could advise them to have you take there map to open loop and advise a safe AFR map for all areas based on there build.
I also see builds that the ION sensing isnt happy with. (most higher compression builds) so I turn off the spark retard because it is pulling timing when it isnt necessary and killing power for no reason. so another question is ....can YOU turn the spark retard off with your system?

I really like the idea you have here. and I am sure it will be a hit on a lot of builds. just looking ahead as I see possible problems on some builds.
please guys dont start your closed loop is the greatest thing since sliced bread opinions. I have mine and your comments wont change my mind.
so let Brian answer the questions that I asked and let it go at that. give the guy his thread without starting the usual debates.

[revperf]

Stroked,

Now I have a better idea. I think your questions would be better answered over a phone call. Would you please PM me your number and I will give you a call today.

Brian

[mike 120]

Stroker, what type or components of a build do you feel would cause a problem? I'm thinking on getting one for myself but don't want to aggravate myself any longer with on road tuning using my TSII.
Mike

[revperf]

Stroker/Mike,

You are right about these types of scenarios.  One of the first test combinations that we ran with the system was a 135" engine with .715" cams, 62mm T-Body, 11:1CR, Destroyer injectors and a 2-2 exhaust.  Being in the tuning game you know that a beast like this can be a bear to sew up from a manners standpoint.  WOT is easy.  Making it ride like a stocker everwhere else is not.  We purposely used it as a starting point to put strategies in place for the system to recognize when it was seeing skewed data returns from overlap and reversionary waves and not end up in a runaway scenario.

Brian

[Dennis The Menace]

Harp, you wont be disappointed.  Its a great product.

Dennis

[sportygordy]

As soon as i  get my Jims 131 back from re-builder i'll be trying this out as well. Been very happy with the Daytona Twin Tec system for years and now time to quit fiddling and start enjoying the rides.... Im hopping this system is what is claimed and now knowing the Chris Schroder was the engineer on the design team i feel a lot better knowing it will work as claimed. Im just curious how it will work on big inch motors and i'll be one of those to report back.

[Don D]

Im hopping this system is what is claimed and now knowing the Chris Schroder was the engineer on the design team i feel a lot better knowing it will work as claimed

Personally I don't care because so far it is working well for me, but is this true? I know it was stated that the wide band interface was their hardware and as far as I have read that is all that is stated about the involvement by DTT in the product. Still don't have any feelings either way as long as it works. The DTT Wego was not a satisfactory solution for me. Tinkering on the side of the road with a laptop is not my idea of a fun ride.

[hogsty]

I'm always suspicious when it's a "black box" type solution.  I guess that's the advantage to some.  You can't mess with it. 

For $799 can't you buy a tuner and get a professional tune done? 

[Jeffd]

I'm always suspicious when it's a "black box" type solution.  I guess that's the advantage to some.  You can't mess with it. 

For $799 can't you buy a tuner and get a professional tune done?

Not if your 1750 miles one way from the closest competant tuner.  Heck Dewey is in an area between Seattle and Portland and he can not find a tuner, what do you think us guys out in Montana are going to do?

[revperf]

Thanks for the interest guys. Just to be clear on something. All we use is the O2 interpreter interface from DTT. That was and is the extent of their involvement. One piece of hardware.  Not a smash against them at all but want to be clear on that.  With that said we were extremely relieved to find a crucial part of the system that could be sourced here in the U.S.  Thanks again.

Brian