cylinder head shoot out

[Deye76]

"I love these threads."
C'mon spring/summer 

[Admiral Akbar]

I know you do.. 

Are grooves mandatory?

Max

[Deye76]

Talk'n to me, or Red?
Me, naw, but a VPC is.

[mayor]

What you propose is what head is the most compatible with a predetermined combination of parts, if you get the right wrong combination of parts it's a WTF......

I guess I don't understand...you saying that head porters don't have the ability to make a given build work with their product when they know up front what the displacement is, the static compression that it will be run at, what the cam choice controlling the traffic is, and the exhaust system which will be run on the build? 

are we then to assume that a "heads out of a box" may be an equal comparison as one that is specifically designed around a specific build?    so, do all heads respond the same to all cams?     do all cams require the same combination of intake and exhaust flow rates?    

Is there is consensus to the notion that more flow is better no matter what the build, if so....then I don't see where measuring simply CFM is a negative.  Max, you concur to that notion?

someone let me know the dollar value that the test will be, so I can shop Ebay for some 110 heads.     my guess is $ per cfm these heads will outflow most....but I'm not sure that make them a good option for a tuna tube loaded two up?   

Would you be satisfied if it turned out to be SE MCR heads?

sure    but then again I have no vested interest if it is or isn't.   

[PanHeadRed]

>I guess I don't understand...<

You nailed it, best post you have made in this thread.

>you saying that head porters don't have the ability to make a given build work with their product when they know up front what the displacement is, the static compression that it will be run at, what the cam choice controlling the traffic is, and the exhaust system which will be run on the build?<

Yep, correct, I would conservatively estimate there is over a hundred thousand possible combonations of displacement, cams, and exhausts, for the HD-TC, throw in compression from stock to balls out and it boggles my mind. For any one guy to say he has or can work with them all I would have to call bull "Potty mouth".

The only way that can predictably happen is if the porter gets to choose all of your parts and then the list gets limited to what they know works, the rest is just a let's see what happens.

For the guys who shop the web and forums fantasizing they are going to do something revolutionary by combining the absolute best of everything and rewrite the rules of engine performance by selecting the best cam from column A and the best piston from column B and the best muffler from column C have nothing more then the published data of the parts to be assembled. If head flow data don't matter why would cam data? All a porter can do in an instance like this is provide you with the CFM, what you can do with it is the unknown.

Heads are nothing more then parts and labor, when the cash register rings all you have is the total of the parts and the results of the labor measured in CFM. Treat it like your cams, gaskets, displacement, etc...get out the calculator and figure out what to do with them, what's it matter if they come in a box, wrapped in a trash bag, or placed in a beer flat on top of the counter? They will either provide the necessary CFM or they will not. If they will feed the engine and you match them up with the wrong parts, that's your fault.

 

[mayor]

>I guess I don't understand...<

You nailed it, best post you have made in this thread.

  ......hey...... 

They will either provide the necessary CFM or they will not. If they will feed the engine and you match them up with the wrong parts, that's your fault.

so in your opinion, the consumer doesn't even need to discuss the build options with the head porter?  because the heads not complimenting the build particulars is not a shared responsibility of the head porter? not saying I disagree with your logic, but that wouldn't give me a warm and fuzzy feeling as a consumer.     so, caveat emptor applies.      

If head flow data don't matter why would cam data? All a porter can do in an instance like this is provide you with the CFM, what you can do with it is the unknown.

ever priced a custom cam grind?  consumers don't have an economical option of having a cam ground to compliment their heads, so why wouldn't a consumer want heads to compliment their chosen cam?  afterall, I would think that all those cam specs mean something (LC, LSA, IC, Overlap, etc...)......does every cam react the same to a fixed exhaust flow rate?  can you overflow on the exhaust side (ok, don't answer that....  )?

[02FYRFTR]

   Looks like the "Winter Blues" have hit again.  Heads are only one part of the equation and probably one of the most over rated component.  All the numbers for flow don't mean a thing if the mix can't enter the chamber fast enough.  Heads can't compress the mix nor can they make up for slipping clutches, rider error etc.  Thread is waste of time and it will never happen as who wants to send heads that cost in excess of $500.00 w/o knowing if they will ever return in the same condition as shipped.  Bottom line for most is going to be price and seat of the pants.  Time and money would be better spent on setting up a real lower end building operation, developing outer races for Twin Cam rods, main bearings, replacement sprocket and pinioon shafts and not held together with threads and nuts.

[PanHeadRed]

>ever priced a custom cam grind?<

No big deal, if you want budget cam grinds and the end result don't matter any more the the head flow does send me what ya got and afew bucks and I'll spin um around on the belt sander for ya.


Don't forget to include return postage.

[PanHeadRed]

>but that wouldn't give me a warm and fuzzy feeling as a consumer.     so, caveat emptor applies.


>so, caveat emptor applies<

Is that Latin for "Stay away from the punch bowl"?

[Deye76]

02FYRFTR
, and the masses, like some in this thread, will ask first off "got a dyno sheet" . Next guys will be carrying plastic laminated flow sheets.

[Admiral Akbar]

  Looks like the "Winter Blues" have hit again.  Heads are only one part of the equation and probably one of the most over rated component.

Well I would disagree.. The problem is that bigger isn't necessarily better.

All the numbers for flow don't mean a thing if the mix can't enter the chamber fast enough.

One of the important things..

Heads can't compress the mix nor can they make up for slipping clutches, rider error etc.  Thread is waste of time and it will never happen as who wants to send heads that cost in excess of $500.00 w/o knowing if they will ever return in the same condition as shipped.  Bottom line for most is going to be price and seat of the pants.

Everyone should not do performance mods! They are bad for your wallet and credit cards!

Oh yeah,, 

Time and money would be better spent on setting up a real lower end building operation, developing outer races for Twin Cam rods, main bearings, replacement sprocket and pinioon shafts and not held together with threads and nuts.

Trying to drum up business?

Max

[Admiral Akbar]

>but that wouldn't give me a warm and fuzzy feeling as a consumer.     so, caveat emptor applies.


>so, caveat emptor applies<

Is that Latin for "Stay away from the punch bowl"?

You are smarter than I thought... 

Max

[Sonny S.]

 

[mayor]

Thread is waste of time and it will never happen....

yes, I agree....and I thought that the last time SBC proposed the same thing last year.  wonder why he proposes this kind of contest?   


I disagree that heads are overrated.  I think they are the cornerstone of any good build, and I also agree with Max that bigger isn't always better.  I think that maximum CFM flow is what is sometimes overrated....



your lucky I like you Red...or I would say what that truly means....but you had part of that statement right   

[Dan]

I like the idea that SB Charlie suggested. I may be a bit biased since I got a  Scottsman job done from SBC for 250 about 7 years ago and it was well worth it. For the average enthusiast looking for a cost effective choice of heads the test scenario does not need to be soooo complex. Keep it simple to work with most bolt in parts.

I gather great info from this site and so do many others and am looking forward for the results. We got 2 so far stepping up, how about some more?

[Mi_RDGlide]

For years on HTT the consensus (perceived?) has been to: 
 
a. tell the porter, you have just bought the latest and greatest cam and want his head work to make over 110 ft/lbs of torque at 2500 rpm and carry it to 6k with your 95ci bagger. 

b. you just bought a set of heads on epray that was the best of the best, you friend gave you cams that he guarantees will make you faster than all your other buddies.   

c. Tell (fellow HTT'ers) your riding style, budget and type of bike, ask what combination they recommend. 

d. Go with a proven combination, set up for your riding style by a reputable porter. 

Btw I have a set of 06 heads with under 100 miles on them I can send in for this build, if someone will cc, port, flow test and send them back to me, I will pay postage one way. 

[mayor]

Btw I have a set of 06 heads with under 100 miles on them I can send in for this build, if someone will cc, port, flow test and send them back to me, I will pay postage one way. 

you are way to kind.    

[PanHeadRed]

Send them to Max, he'll run the 2" hole saw through the ports for ya. You might need guides.

[1FSTRK]

You guys are wasting your time and talents here. We miss you over at the O2 sensor thread. We're going to have a sensor shoot out.

[Mi_RDGlide]

Send them to Max, he'll run the 2" hole saw through the ports for ya. You might need guides.

Would they then work with the wt26?

[strokerjlk]

so, do all heads respond the same to all cams?     do all cams require the same combination of intake and exhaust flow rates?     

poor flowing heads require a cam that complements the poor flow. quite a few guys making a living doing this.
good flowing heads work to there potential with a good cam that matches there ability to flow.
this thread kinda makes me crazy LOL ahh hell there are two or three going strong right now that make me crazy
I dont see how this could possibly prove a thing. because there is no good way to gauge,unless we are just talking WOT hp/tq. numbers. then again with a 13.5 AFR limitation on all heads. some would work and some wouldnt. talking WOT numbers. so many variables on tuning diff heads,even on the same exact bike/build/dyno.
some dont require fuel to make good power,and some need quite a bit. remember we are measuring AFR in the exhaust pipe. not the head.
good combustion /bad combustion

[aharp]

No offense Charlie but this thread is like communism. It looks good on paper but once it's enacted it just don't fly.

It's already been said that to try something like this is too subjective.

[sfmichael]

You guys are wasting your time and talents here. We miss you over at the O2 sensor thread. We're going to have a sensor shoot out.

That's f'n funny...


What's to stop a guy from sending in better, more extensively worked heads and saying it represents his basic street port??
Like aharp said, this sounds like a good premise but could never work in reality.
Find a porter with a good rep and see if he does work in your price range. At some point, you have to trust someone.
Red said it well, no one guy knows all...and speaking from automotive experience, I find a combination that works and continue to recommend it. No one shop has the time or resources to dyno every head, cam, compression, and exhaust combination. Can't be done.
The only way this test could be done would be to do it based on cfm and velocity and those two figures alone do not guarantee results. And those two figures do not represent the overall quality of assembly or tolerances followed.
Good thought though...

[ejk_dyna]

<<For the guys who shop the web and forums fantasizing they are going to do something revolutionary by combining the absolute best of everything and rewrite the rules of engine performance by selecting the best cam from column A and the best piston from column B and the best muffler from column C...>>

  hey...how did you know my plan?     DON'T give away what is the correct choice from each column!

[pwmorris]

Cylinder Head Shootout for bargain basement heads?
Really? Hmmm...
Let me guess, the guy proposing the shootout makes money selling low buck heads, and sets up the parameters/rules for the "shootout" to work with exactly the type of head work he does...
That should be fun-as exciting and informative as watching paint dry or watching a couple 13 second land yachts
drag race against each other down the boulevard-
Maybe instead of laminating dyno sheets, guys can laminate flow number charts? Dueling flowcharts anyone?
Or better yet, both!
That way, we could just whip them out in a parking lot and never have to see how good a motor combo really is-or if the guy knows how to ride, or if his bike can really fly, or if he is FOS...
Just show the big numbers, cause' everyone knows big flow numbers prove big power right?
Man, that sure would be cool.
Flow #'s in and of themselves don't mean squat-From Rockers to heads all the way to the pipe, it's all one unit...