cylinder head shoot out

[sbcharlie]

i know i posted this subject before. why not have cylinder head shoot out on a budget cylinder head. make the rules simple. use an 06 front head or newer, valve max 1.900 intake and 1 .600 on exhaust. minor port work. send the head unassembled to some one on this forum board for a review. review should consist of flow test and if much porting has been done. with times being tough i think the guys on this board would like to see something like this. this way the flow test would be on a baselined flow bench. my thoughts this would be a lot of fun for the guys that port and guys that view this board for information. thanks short block charlie

[mayor]

review should consist of flow test and if much porting has been done.

isn't that subjective? how would one grade one over another? 

I'm not a fan of flow bench racing....

I think a dyno test would be better, set a fixed head chamber size (verified by independent testing) and allow the porter to propose what ever they want to do as far as headwork to improve a pre-determined particulars of a build (and everyone competes on the same build ran on the same dyno.   I'll even nominate Maxheadflow as the tester.  He's got a flow bench to test the heads, he's got the ability to change the heads, and he's already experienced with test procedures.  The only detail to work out is an entrance fee (to pay for dyno time, gaskets, and Max's labor).  An account could even be set up to allow contributions to be made by people interested in the results, from people with no vested interest. 

the test could be broken up into 4 test categories:

selling $ value of work performed/peak HP
selling $ value of work performed /peak TQ
average tq from 2.5k-5k (using every 500rpm as a data point)
deviation from the lowest tq value recorded to the highest tq value recorded in the 2.5k-5k range

[Admiral Akbar]

Lets see all the porters that would be interested in entering the competition provide specs first.. Mainly what parts are changed and the cost.. I doubt you'd get any participation..  Since it's your idea Charley, why don't you start..

Max

[sbcharlie]

the head i will send is an 06 head. it will have an av&a 1.900 intake and a 1.570 exhaust with very little porting. the guides will be stock. the valve seat profiles will be cnc. thanks charlie

[sbcharlie]

its seems that everyone wants see flow numbers on this board . this would be a good comparison on a budget head. have the head with best flow numbers get built. charlie

[garyajaz]

would be interesting.
lots of us looking at budget head work for mild 95. 
not needing stage 3-17. 

seems every one with a grinder is a "porter"
let the shoot out begin.

[mayor]

its seems that everyone wants see flow numbers on this board .

I don't know if I would agree with that....my guess is most consumers have no idea of what their heads flow....even the guys getting their heads ported by professionals.  I also don't  believe that head flow rates necessarily relate to linear tq production of an engine.  I think what most fellows want is a head that performs well on an engine and is economically priced (just read what Gary just posted to confirm this notion). 

Max,
if it becomes just a simple head flow shoot out, I'll volunteer to put the data together in a report if you do the testing.  Same offer if it becomes an in bike test. 

[PanHeadRed]

>cylinder head shoot out on a budget cylinder head.<

Excellent idea, and since I don't do "Potty mouth" half assed I won't be putting up an entry making me the perfect candidate to do the flow testing. Freight must be prepaid both ways to and from 21755.

Flow testing will be done @28" through a CV40 and a CV44.

[PanHeadRed]

>I think what most fellows want is a head that performs well on an engine and is economically priced<

Stock heads are free whats the divide by or multiplier to determin the $ per HP value?

I agree with Charlie about the flow #'s, that's all the consumer has to gage the out come of the total parts and labor he is paying for.

$ per cfm is a lot more tangible then $ per whatever.

IMO it's a lot like cam specs or do you just buy the cam that performs well and is economically priced. Same approach to compression? Or do you crunch the math with the calculators?

[PanHeadRed]

Oops I forgot.

   

[PanHeadRed]

>provide specs first..<

Maxie, I got it, I'll start.

Spec list:

Best Valves
Best Guides
Best Springs
Best Seals
Best Concintricity
Best Angles
Best Ports
Best Flow
Best Velocity
Best Valve Geometry
Best Torque
Best Horse Power
Best Clearance
Best Best

Unless you want to go up a stage then I use even better.

[mayor]

>cylinder head shoot out on a budget cylinder head.<

Excellent idea, and since I don't do "Potty mouth" half assed I won't be putting up an entry making me the perfect candidate to do the flow testing. Freight must be prepaid both ways to and from 21755.

Flow testing will be done @28" through a CV40 and a CV44.

I'll offer my services to write the test report with the info you provide if it goes that way as well.

>I think what most fellows want is a head that performs well on an engine and is economically priced<

Stock heads are free whats the divide by or multiplier to determin the $ per HP value?

yep, you stole my idea.    If it becomes an engine test, my submission may just be stock -06 heads milled to the pre-determined CC size. 

the "divide by" would be based on how much the porter would charge for that work (afterall, we are talking readily available repeatable packages right?) this gives fellows who offer a more extensive service an opportunity to give a quantifyable numbers of how the consumer may benefit from the higher cost options. 

I agree with Charlie about the flow #'s, that's all the consumer has to gage the out come of the total parts and labor he is paying for.

$ per cfm is a lot more tangible then $ per whatever.

this only works if everyone is in consensus that increased CFM automatically relates to increased performance.  Since my vote counts (too late guys, I self appointed me to make up the rules... ), I would say that we will not get consensus on this. 

>provide specs first..<

Maxie, I got it, I'll start.

Spec list:

Best Valves
Best Guides
Best Springs
Best Seals
Best Concintricity
Best Angles
Best Ports
Best Flow
Best Velocity
Best Valve Geometry
Best Torque
Best Horse Power
Best Clearance
Best Best

Unless you want to go up a stage then I use even better.

sorry, "Best" is too loose for interpretation for many of those categories. 

[hrdtail78]

Mayor,

I think the dyno test would provide too many other things into the test.  We would be looking at combo's and just not heads.

I have a set of 08 heads I am not in a hurry to get done.  Perfect for this test.  Not looking for a freebie either.

Hope average flow would be looked at and not peak.

[PanHeadRed]

>"Best" is too loose for interpretation<

IP?

[prodrag1320]

ide be willing to enter a set

[PanHeadRed]

TWIMC

Just the modified casting and the 2 valves  No springs necessary, but include locks if your valves are some crazy 7mm "Potty mouth".

671 Deer Park Rd
Westminster MD 21157

[Admiral Akbar]

Flow testing will be done @28" through a CV40 and a CV44.

You need a real intake, not one of those mouse intakes..

Max

[mayor]

Mayor,

I think the dyno test would provide too many other things into the test.  We would be looking at combo's and just not heads.

I agree, but the controll would be that each set of heads would be done on the same bike, same build, and tuned with the same amount of  time on the same dyno by the same tuner  (maximum of 1hr and WOT only). 

Here's what I'm thinking- The build would be very generic build, 2007 EGC 6sp 103" 54h cams at 10:1 compression (84cc chambers and .040" hg's), fat cat exhaust, and tuned with a T-max auto-tune set to give 13.5 at pipe sniffer. The bike is located in Poway, CA. Doesn't have 54's in yet, but I think it will at some point...

[Deye76]

mayor, what throttle body?

[mayor]

mayor, what throttle body?

stock '07 cable, Max modified.   

[Deye76]

"modified"
Then it's not stock.

[mayor]

sorry, for the misunderstanding.  The throttle body is a stock throttle body modified by Max.  Due to the proprietary nature of Max's work I am not at liberty to discuss the modifications (black arts stuff....you know, So. Cal. dead chicken shaking and such)....but for the sake of the test we will call the throttle body a modified 2007 one piece with a maximum CFM capability of x at 10" (Max can fill in the X). 

[Admiral Akbar]

The mods to the throttle body are pretty easy, any putz with a dremel can do it.. (this putz did).. It's mainly rounding the lip made when they bore the port spigot.. The ID where the manifold hits the head is left the same.. This way the owner can say they ported the TB themselves..    Its good for about 6% flow.. Hardest part is pulling off all the sensors and injectors..  Max

[PanHeadRed]

Mayor, you test makes about as much sense as taking a stock bike and keep changing cams until we find the "best" cam. There are dozens that cost the same money regardless of the lift and timing.

What you propose is what head is the most compatible with a predetermined combination of parts, if you get the right wrong combination of parts it's a WTF......

Would you be satisfied if it turned out to be SE MCR heads?

People choose cams based on the measurements what they do with it is the unknown, just like cylinder heads.

[PanHeadRed]

I love these threads.