Picking base cal for TTS.

[hrdtail78]

I can see the avantages of having the right cam events in place, but at one time the PCIII was the big rage.  No matter what cam was acually installed the base map was for the stock cam.  When picking a base cal for the cam installed with TTS I consider the intake vavle closing important.  Maybe the most important.  Having a base for every cam is ideal but not what I have to work with.  I have heard tuners state that they can check several different base cals quickly to choose thier starting one.  How are you guys doing this?  TIA.

[WVULTRA]

hrdtail78:

I've also read/been advised to start with a TTS base cal that includes a cam closest to what I'm using.  And as you stated, look at the intake closing as a start; but don't let the intake closing be the only consideration for your choice.  Look at Intake and Exhaust events.

When I did the 107", the closest cal file to my cam was in the NO176 map.  However, the bike just didn't like this cal!  Ended up using the PC176 cal which would have been my 2nd choice.  But the bike liked that map!

In some instances, I've experienced a good or bad cal file by simply loading the map in a bike at operating temp and listening to how the bike idled and responded to slight throttle input without even riding for data collection.

With that said, I'm thinking that the experienced tuners will have enough knowledge based on previous tunes to choose a map that benefits the build vs dealing with a lot of trial and error testing various cal files.  I also feel that there are some cal files that actually received extensive testing while there are other, similar files that were extrapolated from actual test data.  But again, that's just a hunch. 

I agree, a function of the software to choose a starting base cal would be nice; but given all the variables with all the different build possibilities along with the simple variances from exact builds using the same components, this function might not be possible.

[1FSTRK]

Some back ground from steve
http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,28890.50.html#lastPost

[1FSTRK]

 
Good explanation guys
This is a tried and true method and is basically the only way to get around a lack of maps.

[WVULTRA]

WVULTRA,

Thanks for the input.  I do have my cals I like to use with the majority of the things I tune.  Simple stage 1 or 2's I have seen enough to know what works with what.  It's the out of the box builds I see from time to time that leaves me scratching my head.

I didn't know if there was somethings tuners did after they loaded a base cal to see if it was decent for the build.  Is there a certain RPM they check first before moving on.....  Something they review in data logging.  Kind of like checking max VE's in the usual high areas and setting displacement before moving on and calibrating the whole table.

hrdtail78:

You sure offer up several good points about where to start; and I'm guessing the seasoned tuners here all have developed ways of quickly checking a cal file to see if it's a good starting point.  Now is this something an operator wants to share on a open forum where one might be quickly chastised?

I've been fortunate enough to actually hear from some very experienced tuners; and it seems they all have unique ways of developing a great running bike.  IMO, the type of equipment and tuning tools the tuner are trained/experienced in can have the greatest outcome on how well a tune we end up with. 

One thing that I hear very little discussion about is Timing?  I've seen posts with lots of participation stating "timing is everything" yet it doesn't get discussed a lot within the TTS camp.  And maybe it's only applicable for those looking for that last couple of hp/tq.   

Hopefully some of the talent we have here on the forum will chime in with some learning tools for those of us yearning for more..........

[hrdtail78]

That's what I was hoping. I do understand that most of the people that do have this info have came about it the old fashion way. Learning it, and there are a lot of ways to learn.

[strokerjlk]

I also feel that there are some cal files that actually received extensive testing while there are other, similar files that were extrapolated from actual test data.

Now is this something an operator wants to share on a open forum where one might be quickly chastised?

nope 
same thing goes for timing,how to work around TBW ETC.

I've been fortunate enough to actually hear from some very experienced tuners; and it seems they all have unique ways of developing a great running bike.  IMO, the type of equipment and tuning tools the tuner are trained/experienced in can have the greatest outcome on how well a tune we end up with. TC.

[rbabos]

So , what does one look for when testing different cals prior to to persuing the vtune sessions? I've learned the hard way the recommended cal can make a rookies life a living hell to tune. I tuned it but recently have randomly tried non listed cals for my build that seemed they would dial in a lot easier.What's the tell tale signs of the most hopefull candidates to start with?
Ron

[rbabos]

 
Ron

[FLTRI]

So , what does one look for when testing different cals prior to to persuing the vtune sessions? I've learned the hard way the recommended cal can make a rookies life a living hell to tune. I tuned it but recently have randomly tried non listed cals for my build that seemed they would dial in a lot easier.What's the tell tale signs of the most hopefull candidates to start with?
Ron

Ron,
Here's a quick test you can do to make another evaluation of the "recommended" calibration:
Use the "Copy multiple tables" feature with the cal you are using now that you feel is much better than the one you v-tuned originally.
Then call up a VIRGIN calibration for the one you say didn't work well, and "Paste multiple tables",
all of them.

Then change the VIRGIN cal to match the constants ie: engine size, injector size, etc to match the calibration you like.
Then flash this newly, built calibration to your bike and take it for a ride. Even a v-tune would be interesting to compare to the stuff you did way back originally.

Since a "recommended" cal has stuff calibrated in the background for your build size, injectors, etc you may find there was an issue that got into the original cal you v-tuned to death and a fresh one with all the proper numbers inserted may just be even better than the non-listed cal you are running now.
Worth a shot IMO,
Bob
PS - If you save the present cal from the bike you can very easily flash it right back in if you find you are still happier with the present cal.
Have you had it on a dyno to see if your AFR and SOP is right on?

[rbabos]

So , what does one look for when testing different cals prior to to persuing the vtune sessions? I've learned the hard way the recommended cal can make a rookies life a living hell to tune. I tuned it but recently have randomly tried non listed cals for my build that seemed they would dial in a lot easier.What's the tell tale signs of the most hopefull candidates to start with?
Ron

Ron,
Here's a quick test you can do to make another evaluation of the "recommended" calibration:
Use the "Copy multiple tables" feature with the cal you are using now that you feel is much better than the one you v-tuned originally.
Then call up a VIRGIN calibration for the one you say didn't work well, and "Paste multiple tables",
all of them.

Then change the VIRGIN cal to match the constants ie: engine size, injector size, etc to match the calibration you like.
Then flash this newly, built calibration to your bike and take it for a ride. Even a v-tune would be interesting to compare to the stuff you did way back originally.

Since a "recommended" cal has stuff calibrated in the background for your build size, injectors, etc you may find there was an issue that got into the original cal you v-tuned to death and a fresh one with all the proper numbers inserted may just be even better than the non-listed cal you are running now.
Worth a shot IMO,
Bob
PS - If you save the present cal from the bike you can very easily flash it right back in if you find you are still happier with the present cal.
Have you had it on a dyno to see if your AFR and SOP is right on?

Interesting, but really doesn't answer the actual question. I'm sure you have a few cals set aside for different builds. Say , for example you try a couple prior to going for a full tune. What kind of effect or data are you looking for before chosing that one particular calibration over the the others that might also work?
Ron

[FLTRI]

I checked with Steve. He looked at the 2 cals and noted very little, I mean VERY little differences between the 2. Certainly not enough that would NORMALLY cause huge running issues that would cause it to be a "living hell" to tune.
This is why I made the suggestion to try the original again BUT start with a virgin so if there is something in the modded cal that caused issues, it won't affect the new one.
Bob

[rbabos]

I checked with Steve. He looked at the 2 cals and noted very little, I mean VERY little differences between the 2. Certainly not enough that would NORMALLY cause huge running issues that would cause it to be a "living hell" to tune.
This is why I made the suggestion to try the original again BUT start with a virgin so if there is something in the modded cal that caused issues, it won't affect the new one.
Bob

No difference between NI176 and PS176. I see big differences.
Ron

[hrdtail78]

Ron,

I would pick a base cal. that allows the MAP to be in an average range.  Then I would do the cut and paste.  When I first load a cal. this is one thing I do check.  I dont always trust idle smoothess.  It might just be the VE's are real close.  I don't know all the behind the scene stuff going on in the ECM.  But I do believe that cam timing is linked to when MAP is sampled.

What Steve might be looking at, is stuff behind the scenes.  VE's being different isn't going to cause it to be a "living hell" to tune.

[rbabos]

Ron,

I would pick a base cal. that allows the MAP to be in an average range.  Then I would do the cut and paste.  When I first load a cal. this is one thing I do check.  I dont always trust idle smoothess.  It might just be the VE's are real close.  I don't know all the behind the scene stuff going on in the ECM.  But I do believe that cam timing is linked to when MAP is sampled.

What Steve might be looking at, is stuff behind the scenes.  VE's being different isn't going to cause it to be a "living hell" to tune.

Different cam spec, exhaust, iac is what jumped out at me.
The MAP caught my eye instantly on the datamaster, which is why I pursued this cal. Jumped from 29 on the NI to 35-36 on the PS. Tuning the low kpa NI was a bitch since some of the areas I ran at were below 26kpa. The PS cal was always in vtune range.
Next dumb question.
If one copies a table from one cal to the other will the calibration function exactly the same with identical entries, or does it effect the behind the scenes somewhat?
Ron

[hrdtail78]

I was told to be careful about cutting and pasting for that reason. We were talking timing though.  It doesn't say anything about it in anything I have read written by TTS, and I have had tuners I respect recommend it to me and on open forums to others.

edit: grammer

[FLTRI]

Different cam spec, exhaust, iac is what jumped out at me.
The MAP caught my eye instantly on the datamaster, which is why I pursued this cal. Jumped from 29 on the NI to 35-36 on the PS. Tuning the low kpa NI was a bitch since some of the areas I ran at were below 26kpa. The PS cal was always in vtune range.
Next dumb question.
If one copies a table from one cal to the other will the calibration function exactly the same with identical entries, or does it effect the behind the scenes somewhat?
Ron

Sorry Ron I was referring to the behind the scenes stuff being very close, not listed spec for the tune or table values.
Bob

[rbabos]

I was told to be careful about cutting and pasting for that reason. Were talking timing  It doesn't say anything about it in anything I have read written by TTS, and I have had tuners I respect recommend to me and on open forums.

Let's use one example in my situation .The PS cal ran ok with the exception of iac points, warumup table and cranking fuel need attention. I manually edited the values (no cut and paste) to where it ran reasonable but weather shut me down before finalizing the whole thing.  Since the NI seems dead nuts on these settings should I copy and paste what's in each of these tables over to the PS cal tables or copy the tables themselves over from NI to PS?
I was under the impression that a table is a table and only the values within are the only thing of importance. Is this correct or are there other things within tables I can't see that can effect how the ecm behaves.
Given that, where did all the extra kpa come from, other than how the ecm reads the tables?
Ron

[wurk_truk]

Different cam spec, exhaust, iac is what jumped out at me.
The MAP caught my eye instantly on the datamaster, which is why I pursued this cal. Jumped from 29 on the NI to 35-36 on the PS. Tuning the low kpa NI was a bitch since some of the areas I ran at were below 26kpa. The PS cal was always in vtune range.
Next dumb question.
If one copies a table from one cal to the other will the calibration function exactly the same with identical entries, or does it effect the behind the scenes somewhat?
Ron

Sorry Ron I was referring to the behind the scenes stuff being very close, not listed spec for the tune or table values.
Bob

And how do YOU have the 'behind the scenes' stuff....  and we don't?  Have you been supplied with more Mastertune info than we have... the folks that pay?  Curious.....

[hrdtail78]

And how do YOU have the 'behind the scenes' stuff....  and we don't?  Have you been supplied with more Mastertune info than we have... the folks that pay?  Curious.....

I checked with Steve.

[staysick01]

I personally found that with both Harley and TTS, I always look for about 3 base maps that closely resemble the configuration of the bike. Usually only 1 is spec'd, though I have also found that starting with a base map that may be spec'd for a specific configuration yields lower results as say a "dumbed" up spec. Therefore I always have a plan A, B, and C. Once I find the map that works best, has best curves, and best AFV at different speeds and RPM's, I then begin to "Tune" the bike. And there have been times when the map TTS or Harley suggests are so way off, that, I will create a map from scratch.

[wurk_truk]

That is simply not right.  If there is info to help pick a tune, it should be made public or available to paying customers....  not calling Steve.  And to staysick...  one can NOT make a new base map.  Even if all VEs etc are changed... the underlying base maps have hidden differences.  It's THESE differences that should be published, so that one could compare the different tunes further.

Bob should have stayed quiet OR let us mere mortals know whats up.  Talk about pure BS!!!!

[FLTRI]

...the recommended cal can make a rookies life a living hell to tune..../quote]
Ron,
Here's a quick test you can do to make another evaluation of the "recommended" calibration:
Use the "Copy multiple tables" feature with the cal you are using now that you feel is much better than the one you v-tuned originally.
Then call up a VIRGIN calibration for the one you say didn't work well, and "Paste multiple tables",
all of them.

Then change the VIRGIN cal to match the constants ie: engine size, injector size, etc to match the calibration you like.
Then flash this newly, built calibration to your bike and take it for a ride. Even a v-tune would be interesting to compare to the stuff you did way back originally.

Since a "recommended" cal has stuff calibrated in the background for your build size, injectors, etc you may find there was an issue that got into the original cal you v-tuned... a fresh one with all the proper numbers inserted may just be even better than the non-listed cal you are running now.
PS - If you save the present cal from the bike you can very easily flash it right back in if you find you are still happier with the present cal.
Have you had it on a dyno to see if your AFR and SOP is right on?

I checked with Steve. He looked at the 2 cals and noted very little, I mean VERY little differences between the 2. Certainly not enough that would NORMALLY cause huge running issues that would cause it to be a "living hell" to tune.

That is simply not right.  If there is info to help pick a tune, it should be made public or available to paying customers....  not calling Steve.

Bob should have stayed quiet OR let us mere mortals know whats up.  Talk about pure BS!!!!

And you ask for help??? Steve has tried to help you, I've tried to help you, and others but the most you can do is ignore the instructions for how to get your answers and then insult us with your posts.
Bob

[rbabos]

I personally found that with both Harley and TTS, I always look for about 3 base maps that closely resemble the configuration of the bike. Usually only 1 is spec'd, though I have also found that starting with a base map that may be spec'd for a specific configuration yields lower results as say a "dumbed" up spec. Therefore I always have a plan A, B, and C. Once I find the map that works best, has best curves, and best AFV at different speeds and RPM's, I then begin to "Tune" the bike. And there have been times when the map TTS or Harley suggests are so way off, that, I will create a map from scratch.

By now I've reasoned out that's about how it goes with some builds. The closest cals for my build are only close enough to get you to the pro tuner, which none exist in my area. Fortunately I was stubborn enough to keep at it with trial and error and got real advice from a couple of tuners when I got stuck with a problem area to fix. Since my calibration resembles nothing like the canned state, I guess you could say it is in a customized state now.  
Ron

[rbabos]

...the recommended cal can make a rookies life a living hell to tune..../quote]
Ron,
Here's a quick test you can do to make another evaluation of the "recommended" calibration:
Use the "Copy multiple tables" feature with the cal you are using now that you feel is much better than the one you v-tuned originally.
Then call up a VIRGIN calibration for the one you say didn't work well, and "Paste multiple tables",
all of them.

Then change the VIRGIN cal to match the constants ie: engine size, injector size, etc to match the calibration you like.
Then flash this newly, built calibration to your bike and take it for a ride. Even a v-tune would be interesting to compare to the stuff you did way back originally.

Since a "recommended" cal has stuff calibrated in the background for your build size, injectors, etc you may find there was an issue that got into the original cal you v-tuned... a fresh one with all the proper numbers inserted may just be even better than the non-listed cal you are running now.
PS - If you save the present cal from the bike you can very easily flash it right back in if you find you are still happier with the present cal.
Have you had it on a dyno to see if your AFR and SOP is right on?

I checked with Steve. He looked at the 2 cals and noted very little, I mean VERY little differences between the 2. Certainly not enough that would NORMALLY cause huge running issues that would cause it to be a "living hell" to tune.

That is simply not right.  If there is info to help pick a tune, it should be made public or available to paying customers....  not calling Steve.

Bob should have stayed quiet OR let us mere mortals know whats up.  Talk about pure BS!!!!

And you ask for help??? Steve has tried to help you, I've tried to help you, and others but the most you can do is ignore the instructions for how to get your answers and then insult us with your posts.
Bob

Bob: Now that's funny. You and Steve let me pull my hair out for months on this stupid calibration .
Ron