96" 48h cams DBW base cal for TTS

[mayor]

That graph looked really nice, Mike.  You are hitting the cells and already have the hang of things.  (that by it self... took me MONTHS to be able to generate a good solid Histograph of the data runs for v-tuning). 

thanks.  I practiced with the stock cams in late October....made about 9 v-tune runs then. I only rode about 20 miles each run this time, with no hills so I think I can get more filled next time.  I think I might even hook up my 7" monitor for the next time, so I can see areas I'm missing.   

I (me) like to turn off AE, PE, WUE, etc and go for tuning runs.  Once close on the VEs... turn off knock control, too.

Once you have enough runs to lock down the VE's...... work the timing a bit.

I'm following Doc's v-tuning manual, so I already had that stuff zero'd.   

I already started with some timing changes for the next map (will be map 3).     I had some pinging that I suspect is more timing than fuel (since the ve's in that area looked dialed in), so I backed that area off a fuzz.....and increased the timing at heavier throttle in the 2-2.5 k range.  I figured worse case scenerio, I just have to run a different map and make another v-tune run if my timing changes aren't good.    

Using Datamaster... make some runs.  THEN you can play them back and look for where the bike pulls timing.  First thought would be to pull timing at .5 increments to make it stop... but I NOW like to add a little bit of fuel to the affected areas first.

After working the timing... do a couple more v-tune runs and see whats up.  Unless its in a closed loop area... I like to add fuel with the AFRs  (lambda??) instead of the VEs.

yea, I haven't played with the datamaster playback stuff yet...I'm waiting for Steve to update the program so I can print off the manual.  I think I killed three tree's already with just the other manuals.    

I will say, the manuals seem like they are written more for people who know what they are doing.    There's plenty of info on how to make changes, but not a lot on what those changes do.     I thought I read over them pretty good, but I don't remeber reading anything about how to make cal from one CI work for another.  The other surprising thing is there's no youtube video's on tuning with tts.  You guys must be real slackers, I was able to find some t-max tuning videos just fine   

From my friends... a 48 cam is a great camset.  Shouldn't 48s get close to 100 TQ on a Stage 2 bike with good pipes?

yea, Jason's 48 sheet looked real nice.  The tq started early, peaked around 4k, and hung around long enough to hit mid-80's in hp.  I hope to do as well with mine.  It looks like my ve's are peaking around 4k, so that's a start.      I'm hoping my 2-1-2 head pipes, open ac, and larger tb helps the tq hang around a hair longer....but would be happy enough if I can get close to what Jason posted.   

[hrdtail78]

I think this confuses people looking at A/F targeted to what is being read on whatever they are sampling with.

Jason

[mayor]

I would suggest that the Mastertune manual come in two versions, Lamba and AFR based.  The two is so intermingled in the manual, a laymen like myself can easily get kinda lost.   

[Steve Cole]

When working at or near idle it is best to lower the idle speed closer to the lower RPM set point to allow the system to run down there. This gives you a chance to see what the build wants and not guess at it. Once tuned you just reset the idle speed back where it belongs. This is a commonly overlooked area of the tune.

[mayor]

When working at or near idle it is best to lower the idle speed closer to the lower RPM set point to allow the system to run down there.

never even looked at that chart until now..    looks like I'm at 1k, you suggesting I take it as low as 800 for the v-tune...then back up for my generated map? 

[wolf_59]

IME, yes.
For this reason I pay a lot of a attention to the 3D graph and force-match VE's in the idle area(s) early in the tune.
I look for as smooth of a terrain as the build will allow.
If I see "spikey" areas I'll consult that feedback data that created a given spiked VE number to check its validity and quality.  If data quality looks good but there still concern, I'll run in that area again to check for repeatability. If valid again, it's what the build wants.

Along this vane and depending on the anomaly, I'll look over the tuning hardware for the likes of a loose sensor, loose or partial connection, wiring integrity etc.

I tried this some what before I did the o2 conversion with a little success but now with VTune I need to play with that a little more. Thanks Herko for the good explaination

[wurk_truk]

When working at or near idle it is best to lower the idle speed closer to the lower RPM set point to allow the system to run down there. This gives you a chance to see what the build wants and not guess at it. Once tuned you just reset the idle speed back where it belongs. This is a commonly overlooked area of the tune.

Cool Stuff.  I think from all the troubles that Ron had... if HE had looked at idle quality first and foremost, he may have made the base map change sooner.  This IS stuff I will pay attention to in the future.  Thanks John and Steve.

[mayor]

I'm curious if I would even need to do that with mine.  based on the ve tables, it looks like I had more than enough data in the 750 rpm range to get good numbers.     I purposely let the bike move forward at idle type rpm's in first gear, just to make sure thse ranges got readings. 

[mayor]

we had another unseasonably nice day today, so I got v-tune run # 3 in right after work:

histogram:


v-tune ve's:


I think the ve's are getting dialed in pretty well.  I'm going to do a little bit of blending, make a few minor timing adjustments, and try for run 4 sometime in the near future. 

I missed the 60% tps cells this time.  How do I see what the tps is in the datamaster program?  I'm thinking I'm going to mark the tps with some tape on the throttle so I have a visual aid.   

[Steve Cole]

Go into DataMaster and select record data, then when you get to the Data Recording Control screen use the MON button. This will show the data without recording it. Tuen the key on without starting it and twist the throttle and mark. As for the recording looks like you need some more data at low RPM (<1500) to get it filled in down there correctly. You might need better roads to get the higher RPM higher TPS stuff but it sure a good start on it.

[mayor]

Go into DataMaster and select record data, then when you get to the Data Recording Control screen use the MON button. This will show the data without recording it. Turn the key on without starting it and twist the throttle and mark.

I tried that, but I could get the TPS to register unless the bike was running.  Could that be because of DBW?


I was trying do this with installing my monitor, but decided "why not use the tools you have"....so I hooked this up this evening:


I ran one of my early v-tune runs on it, just to see how it will work.  The resolution isn't the greatest (that's what I get for going cheap), but I should be able to see what the cells are doing....I just won't know exactly what cells they are.   

As for the recording looks like you need some more data at low RPM (<1500) to get it filled in down there correctly. You might need better roads to get the higher RPM higher TPS stuff but it sure a good start on it.

yea, I'm having a hard time finding roads that aren't salted up or cindered up.    Those early rpm cells are tough.  I'm hoping I can get them filled in more with some visibility from the monitor.  I think knowing where I'm reaching to high of map will be the biggest help. 

[wurk_truk]

Having the monitor on my bike, for v-tuning, was such a big help.  IMHO, anybody SERIOUS about tuning Mastertune as a DIY needs a monitor mounted to the bike.

[mayor]

Having the monitor on my bike, for v-tuning, was such a big help.  IMHO, anybody SERIOUS about tuning as a DIY needs a monitor mounted to the bike.

yea, so far I've only used it to video conference with Bruce:




I hope that the weather holds out tomorrow enough for me to try a run with the monitor.  After seeing how bad the resolution is, I'm wishing I wouldn't have gone so cheap.     I think being able to see the cells should speed up the process, and allow me to fill in more cells....at least that's what I'm hoping.   

[mayor]

I made my first v-tune run with a monitor screen, worked real well up until I received an engine code from the DBW connection.     With the monitor, I was able to see what cells were hit and what cells were missed. It sped up the process, but it also kept me on the road longer (trying to catch cells). 

here's my datamaster run 4 histogram:


and my 4th v-tune run generated ve's:


even with a monitor, some of the cells are pretty hard to reach under normal riding. 

here's how the non monitor v. monitor v-tune comparison worked out:
I gained some more data in some of the cells as a result of seeing the monitor, but overall the v-tune without the monitor seemed fairly affective at catching cells.  Getting data from the 60% TPS cells are tough, so is 40% in the mid RPM's.   I was working on the heavier throttle high rpm's when the wire going to the throttle body came loose.    Luckily I knew what happen from an experience I had last year, or I would have thought I blew the bike up.      


I'm going to make some changes and give it one more go, then I'll probably call it good enough for know and start working on timing. 

[mayor]

we had some unseasonably nice weather this morning, so I decided to go on v-tune run #5 before work.  I am starting to be sold on the monitor for on road v-tuning (closed course of course  ).     The monitor helps speed up the process, and keeps you from constantly running in the same cells.  It also lets you know when you exceded the allowable MAP, which lets you know to tweek the throttle back a fuzz.  I was able to hit more cells this time than I had before, and I would think that I could have been done with my v-tuning one or two runs ago if I would have started out with the monitor.  I think a more than suitable tune can be had with out one, but a much quicker tune can be created with one.   

here's the historgram for run 5:


and here's the new v-tune VE's:


It looks like I have most of the cells dialed in pretty good?  if that's the case, I'm thinking about starting to work on timing....then maybe another set of v-tunes after I get the timing dialed in.  good plan? 

[wurk_truk]

yep.  Thats the plan.

[BVHOG]

It looks like you have a nice flow of VE's in the sampled areas with this last map, however I would bet that the WOT is VERY rich at the present time based on the VE's you have there. No way of knowing without a true sample.

[mayor]

It looks like you have a nice flow of VE's in the sampled areas with this last map, however I would bet that the WOT is VERY rich at the present time based on the VE's you have there. No way of knowing without a true sample.

would it be worth it to set the map in open loop (14.5) to turn off the o2's, and use my WEGO to check WOT afr's? I'm not sure I'd want to go through the effort, but I'm thinking it could be an option to check the heavier throttle afr's.   

[Herko]

Mayor.
IMO it would be very worthwhile to connect your WEGO and log your WOT areas...especially since you already have it available. Set up your AFR table to the target AFR's you want to run when tune is complete.

[BVHOG]

No need to take it out of closed loop as these areas are open loop anyway, like Herko said, just set the target you want and check it from there.

[mayor]

I was thinking I would need to switch off the 02's to remove them completely, then put my WEGO broad band o2 in place of the stock narrow bands directly on the pipe? 

[FLTRI]

Without the OEM O2 sensors plugged in the system can only run in open loop, so no need to "turn them off".
After you are done with WOT tuning, reinstall the OEM O2 sensors.
Bob
PS - This bike should be running really smoothly with great throttle response?

[mayor]

Without the OEM O2 sensors plugged in the system can only run in open loop, so no need to "turn them off".
After you are done with WOT tuning, reinstall the OEM O2 sensors.

cool, didn't know that.  thanks   

This bike should be running really smoothly with great throttle response?

yep, the bike feels real smooth...even running the afr' around 14.5 (clb 762).    and I'm not getting any popping on decel ...and I tried (with plenty of fast decels to get the higher rpm's cells to the left of the scale).      I'm going to modify my last v-tune map to switch back on accel, decel, afr, and such...then I'll play a little to see how it does.  I've been trying not to twist too fast while I was v-tuning, so I'm curious what those little baby cams can do.  So far I think they are a pretty good match for a stock 96" batwing bike. 

I set my clb across the board at 762, does this mean all my afr's are actually around .15 richer than what the charts are saying (assuming proper ve's were developed from v-tuning)?  say for instance I want my WOT to be around 13.2- make the last column on the afr chart 13.4 ?  does this also pertain to PE afr chart? 

should I leave idle at 14.6 (closed loop), or richen it up in open loop? 

[BUBBIE]

Mayor,,,?? your Quote: "and I'm not getting any popping on decel"

I thought the HD Brain Shut Off the fuel on decel and no popping was because of that..

Or is using your tuner different?

Just trying to follow this..

signed....BUBBIE

[mayor]

Mayor,,,?? your Quote: "and I'm not getting any popping on decel"

I thought the HD Brain Shut Off the fuel on decel and no popping was because of that..

I had the decel enleanment turned off for the v-tune.  Also, some of the complaints I had read on v-tuning was based on cam timing details...which I would think would show up on a decel pop. 

So far, I have no complaints with using the CVO cal.  I adjust the timing of that cal slightly by feel, by sound, and by SWAG (with no quantifyable results from datamaster runs yet).  Thanks to Herko for suggesting that cal.