96" 48h cams DBW base cal for TTS

[hrdtail78]

"I set my clb across the board at 762, does this mean all my afr's are actually around .15 richer than what the charts are saying (assuming proper ve's were developed from v-tuning)?  say for instance I want my WOT to be around 13.2- make the last column on the afr chart 13.4 ?  does this also pertain to PE afr chart? "

The offset only affects close loop.  Does not throw the whole AF table off.   Where is is seen however, is from where you are switching from a closeloop cell to a open loop cell.  55kpa you are targeting 14.6 and 60kpa is targeting 14.2.  Steady state rpm and bike is reading 58kpa.  ECM is going to do the math, and 14.5 and 14.2 are both players.  A lot of players in that formula.  Something to keep in mind when comparing targeted to acual.

Jason

[mayor]

I thought the VE's were being calculated based on the data received from the o2's, which will create a richer actual than stoich since I used a clb of 762?   

[hrdtail78]

I thought the VE's were being calculated based on the data received from the o2's, which will create a richer actual than stoich since I used a clb of 762?   

You are calculating VE's to 14.5 if using 762.  Not 14.6.  14.6 is just putting that area into close loop.  The ECM knows the offset.

[03deuce]

Mayor,
Which monitor are you using on your bike for the v-tune?
If you were going to upgrade to a better one, what would it be?   What would the difference in costs be?
thanks

[mayor]

Which monitor are you using on your bike for the v-tune?

I bought this from Amazon last year:

now that I've v-tuned with it a couple of times, I think the resolution is just fine as long as you stretch the histrogram chart as big as your lap top screen.  I had to buy an adapter to convert the monitor out to a coaxial video to get it to work.  I know there has to be better out there, but I'm not sure where to find it or how much they cost.  Wurk-truk has a one as well, maybe he'll way on in which one he has. 

[wurk_truk]

MIMO 730 from Amazon.com.

Like $120.  Like Mayor says... stretch it out on the laptop so that the secondary screen is filled with nothing but cells.

The MIMO worked out of the box... USB does power and vid.  Do NOT loose the install disc for the MIMO, the Chinese have NO mirror site for a DL.

[wurk_truk]

OK.....  Mayor, let's do some Datamaster runs.  TRY to get it to ping.  Have EVERYTHING turned back on, like PE AE and knock control.

Post the Data runs, please.  Post the actual runs from Datamaster and NOT a pix on Boxnet or similar so that we can DL it and view it.  Post the Boxnet link here on this thread.

THEN..........  I want Jason, Bob, etc, to chime in and show us how we can add fuel to the spots where Knock Control pulls timing using the VEs.  Most of the spots that ping will be in closed loop areas, so I figure to keep it in CL, we gotta change the VEs to add a tad bit of fuel BEFORE we pull timing.

A number of Datamaster runs are now needed on you part, Mike.  You TRY to make it ping... KC pulling timing out.  STock settings are aggressive in the amount of timing pulled.  Like 4*.  The tables can be altered to limit those things, but first... have to make the bike not WANT to pull timing by using fuel and altering the timing maps.

[mayor]

have EVERYTHING turned back on, like PE AE and knock control.

changed the settings this morning.    but now the weather turned back into winter.    don't know when I'll get to ride again. 

here's what I set my afr chart to:

how's that look?

Post the Data runs, please.  Post the actual runs from Datamaster and NOT a pix on Boxnet or similar so that we can DL it and view it.  Post the Boxnet link here on this thread.

I don't currently have an account set up there.  Is it just like signing up for photobucket?

A number of Datamaster runs are now needed on you part, Mike.  You TRY to make it ping... KC pulling timing out.  STock settings are aggressive in the amount of timing pulled.  Like 4*.  The tables can be altered to limit those things, but first... have to make the bike not WANT to pull timing by using fuel and altering the timing maps.

I've already made some timing adjustments in the lighter map readings (mostly in closed loop areas...but some in the higher MAP areas as well), based on what I was hearing and feeling with my v-tune runs.  I still haven't opened the bike up to full WOT yet.  figured no need while I was v-tuning.    Does the adaptive knock read at all MAP readings?   

I left the adaptive knock at the stock settings for that Cal:

should I reduce the amount of timing that is being pulled in the higher MAP readings?

[wurk_truk]

google 'boxnet' and it will take you there.  It was free to try and you get 5gb of storage.

I have the MOCO crank run out PDF on there and it has been downloaded 123 times by members here and at VTwin.  Pretty cool stuff, IMHO.  Maybe you can e-mail it to me and I will 'box-it-up' for you?

We are entering into the areas I WANT to learn, too.  Before.. I simply left the tables alone and pulled timing from the map until the KC was happy.  THAT, surely, cannot be the correct way to do this, because I could TELL that the bike was down a bit on power and felt 'flat'.  I open looped the whole bike and added a teeny bit of fuel to the KC unhappy areas using the AFRs and bike felt much better. (with the fuel added, I could put a bit of the timing back in)  But now...........  I want to learn how to do this and keep the bike in closed loop.

[96 F450]

mayor
If you wouldn't mind could you wright up a description of your riding technique for VE tuning with out a screen to glance at.
I seem to be using allot of brake and getting close but not quite there yet.
Thanks.

[mayor]

sure.     The key is don't ride like you normally would, there's plenty of time for that after the tune.     I used very little braking to reach cells.    Mainly just to get the early idle cells (making the engine want to stall to get the first rpm set of cells).   Each of the maps I posted was done with about 20 miles per run, and the last few were done with-in a 5 mile radius of my house.  The more runs I've made the more I think the key is in the technique, and less to do with the road.  It really just comes down to using the gears to control load and needed throttle position.   

here's how I did it with and without the screen (the screen just helped me do it faster and with less repetition in certain cells):

1. short shift the first couple of gears- meaning once you start moving, shift through 1st and 2nd gears to get into 3rd gear (be careful not to overly lug the engine). Gently do roll on's from the low rpm's in third gear to the high rpm's (as high as RPM's as you feel comfortable with...I took mine to 5.5-6k), repeat in 4th, repeat in 5th, repeat in 6th.  Make sure you're not accelerating too fast, or you will exceed the maximum MAP.  I was starting my roll on's on a flat road as low as in the 1250-1500 rpm range ( ) .

2. Do some controlled decels slowly with pressure on the throttle (what I would call dragging the decel), and also do some fast decels at speed in the upper rpm's to get the far left side cells. 

3. find some hills, and short shift through the gears before gently rolling on the throttle (I was taking some slow MPH hills in 3rd and 4th gears just to get some of the early rpm/later tps cells).  I didn't start out moving in 2nd gear instead of 1st, but I think that would be affected as well.   

4. find a road that you can ride fast on (closed course of course  ), and wind out 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 5th gears with several different throttle ranges (making sure not to accel to fast, or you will exceed the allowable v-tune MAP).  I had a hard to getting past 40%tps, unless I was in 5th or 6th gear...but that could be a result of the tq created with the cam change (they improved the acel rate).    I also had a tough time getting into the 40% range in the early rpm's without exceeding the allowable MAP.  I think accelerating down hill would help, but all the mountain roads in my area are covered with anti-skid right now. 

5. Ride some hi-way speeds (65-75mph) in 3rd, 4th, and 5th gears...and do some controlled "passing" accelerations in those gears. 

6. Ride some off hi-way speeds (35-45 mph zones) in 2nd, 5th and 6th gears.   

7. Gently take 1st and 2nd gears to the upper rpm's using controlled accerations (meaning- don't just twist the wick).


hope this makes sense.    This might sound like a lot to do, but I was getting this done with 20 miles or so of riding.  It might help that there's an interstate with-in 2 miles of my house though.     I actually did the majority of my last two runs on the interstate.  That way you can get the upper rpm's covered in the early gears with-out braking too many traffic laws.   

[mayor]

Post the Data runs, please.  Post the actual runs from Datamaster and NOT a pix on Boxnet or similar so that we can DL it and view it.  Post the Boxnet link here on this thread.

my first data runs can be found here (as long as the link works  ):
http://www.box.net/shared/v00jardj29

I also attached the map I'm currently running.  I haven't reviewed the data, yet...but I think I heard it ping a couple of times.

FWIW, I like those cams.  This was the first I was able to really play around, and I found the acceleration to be pretty good considering the fairing.  It's a good thing I was riding on a closed course...cause I exceeded triple digits at one point.   


[attachment removed after 60 days by system]

[mayor]

it's a good thing I was on a closed course:



I'm going to look at how I blended my VE's, since my knock retard seems to be where I blended down on the front.  I was trying to keep with the VE trends, but I think I went to far.    I'm going to correct that, and try again.   

[mayor]

I'm going to look at how I blended my VE's, since my knock retard seems to be where I blended down on the front.  I was trying to keep with the VE trends, but I think I went to far.    I'm going to correct that, and try again.   

that did the trick.    I didn't see any knock retards on the second run:
http://www.box.net/shared/cuhq7j4qsc
not only did I correct the blending, but I also increased the timing in a few spots in the early rpm's.  I'm thinking I can go a little more in places too, but I think I'm going to wait to do anymore data runs.  I'm thinking the temps are too cold here to allow me to get good data on knock retard, since the engine temps are so low.   

[attachment removed after 60 days by system]

[FLTRI]

...I'm thinking the temps are too cold here to allow me to get good data on knock retard, since the engine temps are so low.   

You are correct. You will only know for sure in the heat of the summer, and possibly stuck in traffic.

Bob

[96 F450]

mayor,
Thanks for that wright up, as soon as I have some time I'll give it a whirl.

[omega1]

Regarding summer heat timing, I went about it as follows:

I had done all timing adjustments in spring and (after much testing) had a set of timing tables that did not ping.

But when summer came the engine would ping occasionally under various conditions.

I then adjusted the timing tables (using Datamaster data) to once again give me no ping at even the very hottest of engine temperatures.

The timing differences between my Spring and Summer timing tables were then used to modify the Spark Temperature Correction table. I then returned the main spark tables to my Spring setting.

Result: No ping at any temperature and improved efficiency by not having overly retarded timing in cool weather conditions. 

[mayor]

no problem '96. 

thanks omega.  That makes a lot of sense.   

good thing I got my data runs in when I did...we just got hit with 8" of snow, so I won't be riding anytime soon.    

[FLTRI]

Regarding summer heat timing, I went about it as follows:

I had done all timing adjustments in spring and (after much testing) had a set of timing tables that did not ping.

But when summer came the engine would ping occasionally under various conditions.

I then adjusted the timing tables (using Datamaster data) to once again give me no ping at even the very hottest of engine temperatures.

The timing differences between my Spring and Summer timing tables were then used to modify the Spark Temperature Correction table. I then returned the main spark tables to my Spring setting.

Result: No ping at any temperature and improved efficiency by not having overly retarded timing in cool weather conditions.

Great way to do timing!! I wondered when someone would mention the SCT.
A torque sensor can be used to get best power, but cannot help with detonation in hot temps.
Bob

[burgies08ultra]

i am surprised u did not adjust your blade control to actual % not the gradual increase in your map..jmo
burgie

[wolf_59]

This has been a great thread !!

[wurk_truk]

I have MY blade control set at 100%.  I like it.  Doc has stated to NOT do this tho.  I would imagine there IS a reason to not 100% the whole table out like I did (Herko does this too BTW), but I do NOT know the reasoning behind Doc's statements... yet.

[hrdtail78]

Take off your AC and run down the road WOT.  Do you get any fuel stand off?  Now don't 100% out the table and do it again.  Is your leg wet?

[mayor]

i am surprised u did not adjust your blade control to actual % not the gradual increase in your map..jmo
burgie

I don't think I would want to increase to actual.  I have not noticed any real difference with the DBW compared to my throttle cable bikes. Heck, I didn't even notuce any throttle lag with the stock map.     I think actual would make the throttle too touchy for me in the early rpm's.  I did adjust the blade control during the last two v-tune runs to aid in getting more cells tuned, not to actual but up 5% on many of the cells.   here's what I ran for increases (probably try to tuning at actual in just the 20% 30%, 40% next time, then go back to the % on the original map) :



thanks wolf.   

[mayor]

for those that haven't played with the datamaster program, here's a real nice feature:


This was from my data run 1, which resulted in me correcting some ve blending (to richen rather than pull timing).