All Things TTS Can Adjust

[wurk_truk]

Hey...  I have looked but cannot find that list of all the things one can adjust with a MasterTune.

[FLTRI]

Maybe SC will point this out.
Bob

[Steve Cole]

User adjustable items for MT7 Lambda Calibrations

Main Lambda table
VE Front Cylinder
VE Rear Cylinder
PE Lambda
Warmup Enrichment
Cranking Fuel
Accel Enrichment
Decel Enleanment
Spark Advance Front Cylinder
Spark Advance Rear Cylinder
PE Spark Advance
Spark Temperature Correction
Closed Throttle Spark Advance Front Cylinder
Closed Throttle Spark Advance Rear Cylinder
Adaptive Knock Retard
Idle RPM
IAC Warmup Steps
IAC Crank to Run
IAC Crank Steps
Throttle Blade Control
Engine Displacement
Injector Size
MAx Knock Retard
RPM Limit
Knock Control
EITMS
PE Mode
Primary Ratio
Speedo Adjustment
Active Exhaust
Active Intake
Automatic Compression Release


User adjustable items for MT8 Lambda Calibrations

Main Lambda table
VE Front Cylinder
VE Rear Cylinder
PE Lambda
Warmup Enrichment
Cranking Fuel
Accel Enrichment
Decel Enleanment
Spark Advance Front Cylinder
Spark Advance Rear Cylinder
PE Spark Advance
Spark Temperature Correction
Closed Throttle Spark Advance Front Cylinder
Closed Throttle Spark Advance Rear Cylinder
Adaptive Knock Retard
Idle RPM
IAC Warmup Steps
IAC Crank to Run
IAC Crank Steps
EGR Effect Front Cylinder
EGR Effect Rear Cylinder
Throttle Blade Control
Minimum TPS for Baro Correction
Engine Displacement
Injector Size
Skip Fire Mode IAC Offset
Max Knock Retard
RPM Limit
Knock Control
EITMS
PE Mode
Primary Ratio
Speedo Adjustment
Camshaft Selector
Active Exhaust
Active Intake
Automatic Compression Release

Also the TTS base calibrations all have many things adjusted/tuned that you cannot get from any other tuner, so if you start with an HD base calibration your loosing all of these as well. These changes are all copyrighted just as is all our software and you agree to abide by the copyright laws by using our software package and calibrations.

[FLTRI]

Who starts with and modifies a stock HD calibration??
Bob

[whittlebeast]

Bummer. 

Still now way to control the o2 behavior?

Still no way to control the default MAP table?

Still no way to adjust the fuel cutoff behavior in overrun?

Is there a way to pick only the fields that you want recorded in data logs?

Is there a way to see the fuel trims?

AW

[wurk_truk]

Thanks Steve.

[rbabos]

Steve: Just to make sure I read this correctly all MT8 calibrations are now Lambda, even for my O7 ?
Ron

[Hilly13]

Steve will my 06 Dyna ECM be able to utilise the camshaft selector or is that just for the Lambda models?

[Steve Cole]

No, I only list Lambda as a reference point as the AFR based calibrations have some different tables in them. The Camshaft Selector settings are currently only being done for the Big Twin motors and we are not able to make it work on the 2001 - 2003 bikes using the original ECM. If you want to do a 2001 - 2003 bike it will have to have the replacement ECM installed with later software.

WB

Same old BS from you two years ago, you cannot use what we have now so how about you first learn how to use it properly on a HD then come back with real reasons why more is needed! Everyone else seems to be able to do just fine with what we've given them and now they get to learn more and your still 2 years behind.

[FLTRI]

Bummer. 

Still now way to control the o2 behavior?

Still no way to control the default MAP table?

Still no way to adjust the fuel cutoff behavior in overrun?

Is there a way to pick only the fields that you want recorded in data logs?

Is there a way to see the fuel trims?

AW

No need to use such a simplistic, dumbed down system. You always have Megasquirt to tune Harleys with?
Bob

[cts1950]

When will the MT8 files be ready. They are not in MT v161

[rbabos]

No, I only list Lambda as a reference point as the AFR based calibrations have some different tables in them. .

Thanks. I guess if I studied the calibration codes first I would have realized DBW is when Lambda is used.
Ron

[mayor]

Thanks. I guess if I studied the calibration codes first I would have realized DBW is when Lambda is used.
Ron

not all DBW. the '08-'09 DBW is still afr.     unless Steve has a way of changing that?

[FLTRI]

not all DBW. the '08-'09 DBW is still afr.     unless Steve has a way of changing that?

I believe you can use the lambda cals in -09 DBW bikes. Don't think this is true with -08.

Bob

[mayor]

really?  just flash one and it will be lambda instead of afr?  anyone try this yet?  I'm not sure I want to do another 500 miles worth of tuning, but I am curious.   

[Steve Cole]

No you cannot put a Lambda calibration in a 2008 or 2009 as the O2 sensors are different and they work differently along with some of theother sensors.

[mayor]

yea, that's what I thought...Bob trying to lead me astray.   

so, when's TTS getting broadband capabilities so I can tune to 100 kPa?   

[BigD]

Steve, 

Thanks for the preview.  Can you explain what the EGR tables are and why I might want to adjust them?

Are there going to be more base cals in the mt8 update? 

[Hilly13]

EGR= Exhaust Gas Recirculation, been on cars for years, didnt know Harleys had that set up, but i have tunnel(06 Dyna)vision 

[Jeffd]

dang I am even dumber then I thought lol.
Kid at work thought I was pretty smart when I set his points and showed him how the auto advance worked on his mid 60's 289/302 lol. 

[FLTRI]

No you cannot put a Lambda calibration in a 2008 or 2009 as the O2 sensors are different and they work differently along with some of the other sensors.

Jess makin' sure you're watchin' 
Sorry Mayor. 
Bob

[Ardy]

Kid at work thought I was pretty smart when I set his points and showed him how the auto advance worked on his mid 60's 289/302 lol.

Did you use the high tech match book method when you set them points? 

[whittlebeast]

Same old BS from you two years ago, you cannot use what we have now so how about you first learn how to use it properly on a HD then come back with real reasons why more is needed! Everyone else seems to be able to do just fine with what we've given them and now they get to learn more and your still 2 years behind.

I guess we have to take that as "I don't know how"

AW

[Steve Cole]

Same old BS from you two years ago, you cannot use what we have now so how about you first learn how to use it properly on a HD then come back with real reasons why more is needed! Everyone else seems to be able to do just fine with what we've given them and now they get to learn more and your still 2 years behind.

I guess we have to take that as "I don't know how"

AW

No, what it means is we do not take advise from someone who is to lazy to learn the product and use what is already there.

[rbabos]

EGR= Exhaust Gas Recirculation, been on cars for years, didnt know Harleys had that set up, but i have tunnel(06 Dyna)vision 

EGR had me going the same path as your explanation. In this case it's EGReversion. Basically O2 sensors being influenced from how the exhaust flows, but with reversion, not in a good way. This causes the 02 to deliver the wrong amount of  fuel to the cylinder that sees reversion making the tune less than optimum. Not sure if this is 100% correct, but it's close.
Ron

[Hilly13]

Man thats really cool happy as to be off the mark 

Thanks for setting me straight Ron 

Hilly

[Steve Cole]

Sorry, but it's not reversion. Every gasoline engine out there has EGR. I do not care who or what it is. For those of us that design them we call it Internal EGR or External EGR. Internal EGR is a function of engine design and External EGR is an EGR valve that most of you are use too. An external EGR valve is an emissions control device so by law the OEM has to warranty it for 5 years or 50,000 miles so many engine manufactures are spending more time with the engine design to not have to use External EGR.

Since all motors have at least internal EGR the ECM has to know how much it is getting from either source for the fuel calculations. So what we have done with the Cam Selector updates is to also add the EGR in for both cylinders as well. This will allow the people who really want to do a complete tune to set things up for the components that are on the bike. Those who do a quickie tune now can continue to do so.

[Hilly13]

No worries Steve, im still excited 

How is it looking for the release?

Hilly

[Steve Cole]

All the software is complete and got through final testing today. The calibrations are still being assembled and should be completed on Tuesday barring any issues with them. If that's the case you should see the updates out for the public on Wednesday.

[1FSTRK]

Steve
Great news
Hope the updater can handle the traffic Wednesday.

[Tsani]

 

[TXP]

That is great news. I had a good customer get upset with me today over giving him good advice. A competing dealer had convinced him SEPST works "exactly" like the TTS system. He was visibly agitated when I began explaining the differences between the two systems, so I invited him to walk back to the dyno and show him dyno sheets and histograms and discuss the data. After a 45 minute educational process, he scheduled a tune and went with the Mastertune. When confronted with reasonable hard data, if you can just get them to open their mind and be willing to listen, its hard to refute. To me, the first thing I have to sell the customer is me. Once they realize I do know the difference and they can have a superior product at a better price, MT over the competition is a cinch. Will the CAN bus for 11 Softails be part of next weeks projected updates? I sure hope so. The busy tuning season is now starting to hit in my area. Really excited about getting the MT8 stuff.

[mayor]

All the software is complete and got through final testing today. The calibrations are still being assembled and should be completed on Tuesday barring any issues with them. If that's the case you should see the updates out for the public on Wednesday.

is the new manuals available yet?  if not, will they be available when the software update is released? 

[whittlebeast]

VE is the final adjustment to the basic fuel equation to correct for all of the things that can not be measured with the basic sensors.  The biggest single thing that drives VE is exhaust left behind from the last exhaust stroke for whatever reason.

Is this previously hidden table the source of the huge valleys that exist in some Harley VE tables?

http://www.ncs-stl.com/SertTune/XR1200VETable.JPG

Here is a 40 meg video that explains lots of this stuff in English

http://www.diyautotune.com/videos/megasquirt_meet_08/efibasics.mov

AW

[BigD]

Sorry, but it's not reversion. Every gasoline engine out there has EGR. I do not care who or what it is. For those of us that design them we call it Internal EGR or External EGR. Internal EGR is a function of engine design and External EGR is an EGR valve that most of you are use too. An external EGR valve is an emissions control device so by law the OEM has to warranty it for 5 years or 50,000 miles so many engine manufactures are spending more time with the engine design to not have to use External EGR.

Since all motors have at least internal EGR the ECM has to know how much it is getting from either source for the fuel calculations. So what we have done with the Cam Selector updates is to also add the EGR in for both cylinders as well. This will allow the people who really want to do a complete tune to set things up for the components that are on the bike. Those who do a quickie tune now can continue to do so.

Thanks Steve!  I wasn't aware that our motors had EGR, but I'm relieved it's not an external valve.  I had an EGR valve go out on a CHevy Blazer on a regular basis.  The part was cheap, but what a PIA to replace.

[wolf_59]

Quote from a previous thread if this is true should be a pretty good tool to use

quote author=H and D Cycles link=topic=35192.msg364038#msg364038 date=1297063663]
I am writing this based off of what I remember and a few notes i wrote down, I have not used it yet, so if any of this is not %100 correct [lease do not crucify me.

The EGR (exhaust gas reversion) Tables will be used to make a lot smother V.E. tables, thus making a smother running bike. In hot mild to extreme wild builds we see a lot of high V.E. values in  low rpm due to reversion. In short hand The EGR table is a  multiplier table used to most likely decrease but can also increase your V.E. values if needed depending on what you have the values set at. The adjustment is linear by rpm only, it is not based off of map or tp like v.e. is. The smother Your V.E. tables are typically will translate over to a smother running bike. Instead of the bike reading up-down, up-down, backwards forwards it reads a nice smooth transition best seen in the 3-d map view. It will help a completely tuned cal look more like a stock cal from Steve. For example a D&D fatcat usually has a lot of reversion from 1250 to 2000 rpm and when tuned right you typically get very high V.E. values, So lets say they were anywhere from 100-110. with the EGR Table you can change the multiplier setting from 1250-2000 to decrease your V.E. by %20-3o% so your in the 70-80 range and re tune. Then look at Your V.E. table and see how it responded. If all goes well instead of have a rise then a fall then a rise you will have a nice smooth transition with no real valley. With this on top of the Cam timing, I am dying to get a hold of a mt8 cal.
[/quote]

[rbabos]

EGR is an exhaust gas recirculation valve in the auto industry. Basically it allows exhaust to enter the intake at certain vacume settings for epa reasons. No connection to our equipment.
Steve: Since you pointed out I was wrong by stating the R was reversion and the Recirculation don't apply, what does the R stand for? Only trying to get correct terminology so I don't sound like an idiot in TTS converations.
Ron

[mayor]

EGR is an exhaust gas recirculation valve in the auto industry. Basically it allows exhaust to enter the intake at certain vacuum settings for epa reasons. No connection to our equipment.
Steve: Since you pointed out I was wrong by stating the R was reversion and the Recirculation don't apply, what does the R stand for? Only trying to get correct terminology so I don't sound like an idiot in TTS conversations.

good question.  if I'm reading between the lines of Steve's responses and the reposted response from H and D Cycles correctly, the R should stand for reversion.    Since Steve was quite clear that this what not the case, I'm baffled on what this function would actually do.  Not taking a shot at Steve, but his response to your question left me thinking he didn't know or didn't know how to describe it.  Clearly defining what the acronym stands for might make understanding it's function much more easier to comprehend.  For those of us that are in technical fields, we generally prefer to have of acronyms clearly defined anyway when making references to more than one version of them (i.e internal and external).   

[Tsani]

I didn't catch where Steve said recirculation didn't apply. Could it not have to do with the valve opening over lap? Wouldn't that allow some exhaust gases to enter the intake tract to some degree?

[rbabos]

I didn't catch where Steve said recirculation didn't apply. Could it not have to do with the valve opening over lap? Wouldn't that allow some exhaust gases to enter the intake tract to some degree?

Could be. That's why I would like to clarify what it refers to. Then we can all speak the same language.
Ron

[Tsani]

Gotcha. We riders may call it reversion when in fact the engineers call it  exhaust gas recirculation in this case. Which is why it is being offered as an adjustment in new software. I think the exhaust setup you use will play into it as well, wether or not one eliminates the cross connect in the headers. I have been told some "reversion" is a good thing, maybe they meant recirculation?

[mayor]

1. I didn't catch where Steve said recirculation didn't apply.

2. Could it not have to do with the valve opening over lap? Wouldn't that allow some exhaust gases to enter the intake tract to some degree?

1. how would it recirculate the exhaust gas?  there's no hardware between the intake and the exhaust, so the only way is reversion that I can think of.     Steve did say that the R did not stand for reversion though. 

2. yes, and I'll add it's likely from other details like exhaust system and valve timing as well.  Although I see no way the the tuning software is going to change this from happening.  I can however see that the tuning software could allow the end user to account for it, and correct for it in the data interpretion.    When we get computer contolled valve timing, then I think we could be able to control the mechanics involved that causes reversion much easier.   

[Tsani]

1. how would it recirculate the exhaust gas?  there's no hardware between the intake and the exhaust, so the only way is reversion that I can think of.   

The common piece of hardware between the two would be the combustion chambers. It would be limited and quick, but could still have an effect IMHO.

[mayor]

good point, but it's still mechanically controlled.  I can't see how the softaware can adjust a mechanical device, only account for it.   

[Tsani]

Right. It can't control it per se, but adjust for the effect.

[whittlebeast]

These sort of spikes in VE can also be caused by the code taking the MAP reading at a bad moment in the 720 degrees of crank rotation.  What the goal is to grab the estimated average MAP value the time that the intake valve is open.  If a spike in the MAP value happens when the MAP value is taken, it blows the average.  I takes some fairly high speed data logging to see this stuff.  Far faster than what we have on the CAN bus.

This is the sort of thing that rears its ugly head when modding motors.  The dead giveaway that you may have issues is spikes in the VE tables.  Hidden tables trying to tweak around idiosyncrasies of one cam will drive the next cam tuning nuts with peaks and valleys.  I tend to watch for patterns in the the pulse width on the data logs to work around this sort of thing.

AW

[Steve Cole]

I didn't catch where Steve said recirculation didn't apply. Could it not have to do with the valve opening over lap? Wouldn't that allow some exhaust gases to enter the intake tract to some degree?

We have a winner. The valve overlap allows exhaust to enter the intake tract and that is recirculation. This recirculation is controlled by the engine design components. They all play into the mix but the major player is the camshaft design. As intake pressure changes so does the amount of EGR. So the information is to let the ECM know how much of what in the cylinder is O2 and how much is EGR. Internal EGR will affect mainly low MAP reading areas with little to no affect on the high to mid MAP readings. 60 kPa is the break area where at this level and above Internal EGR is little to none based on the running pressure and piston speed.

[ultraswede]

based on the running pressure and piston speed.

Can you expand on where the EGR effect don't play a significant role in relation to piston speed?
Rpm with the standard 96/103 stroke, and rod length?

[FLTRI]

Maybe this will help:

Bob

[FLTRI]

...I tend to watch for patterns in the the pulse width on the data logs to work around this sort of thing.

AW

How do you "work around" this sort of thing? Do you have special tools to do so and what changes do you make in the calibrations? This is a learning forum so we are all ears to hear how work arounds...work.
Thanks,
Bob

[whittlebeast]

This log has an example of the sort of thin I ma looking for.  Look right in the center of the pull where the Stock DC held flat for a few 1/10s of a sec and the PC3DC made the situation even worse.  You can also see a corresponding dip in the RPM per sec trace.  That is a good indication something is going wrong right at 6000 RPM.  There is no dip in TPS to explain the in acceleration.  That is a prime place to bump the VE at that point to test for a positive response.  With TTS I would also look for dips the O2 voltage indicating issues.

http://www.ncs-stl.com/PowerCommander/SecondGearPullBase.jpg

You may never get your head around the source of the dip but none the less it is there and worth investigating.  I normally run accelerometers to check for matching data.

see http://www.ncs-stl.com/PowerCommander/PC3LogVsAccelLog.jpg

That sort of thing.

AW

[whittlebeast]

Here is an example of a bike with a serious AFR control issue causing pulsation at steady state riding.  A quick look at the pulse width revealed the source if the pulsing of power.  This entire trace is about 30 sec.

http://www.ncs-stl.com/SertTune/MotorNeedingTuning2.jpg

Notice that the MAP, throttle position, and VE were all dead steady indicating that the source was coming from somewhere other than the VE table.  The swing in pulse width was enough to cause a full 1 AFR swing every second that matched to observations from the seat.

AW

[ultraswede]

WB
what you posted below is a prime example of how a good closed loop log should look like.
As I am sure you already know, the catalyst must be saturated with oxygen, and then depleted of oxygen, that's the reason
the air fuel mixture is switched (switching o2 sensors) between rich lean as can be seen on the attached log.

Perfectly normal I would say.

[whittlebeast]

Normal/typical possibly but unacceptable from a drivability standpoint.

Here is an example of using accelerometers to check the AE settings.  This is progressively higher RPM throttle stabs.  I was not running the motor data logger on that ride.

http://www.ncs-stl.com/fz1/3_4_5000_Stab.jpg

Here is the same bike with the resolution zoomed in.  In this screen shot I am going from 0 geez to about .85 geez in .4 sec.  This is normally how I have to balance the AE settings between low speed drivability roll-on and full on throttle stabs.

http://www.ncs-stl.com/fz1/FZ4000RpmPunch.jpg

AW

[1FSTRK]

whittlebeast
I’m having some trouble following some of your theory, or at least making the connections to the many unique characteristics of the Harley motor and Delphi operating system. Could you please post some recordings of Harley data and what you did with TTS to solve the problem, or what you were lacking from TTS that would have enabled you to solve the problem? This is all fairly new and a little complicated to most of us. It is often easier to follow new concept if we stay with a single test subject shown with different problem examples and cures.
Thanks   

[whittlebeast]

My point is all motors and fueling comes down to suck, squish, bang, blow.  In the case of EFI we add the option of data logging.  Use it to your advantage.  It is huge.  There is a wealth of info on that data stream.  Other supporting data can also be for cheep now that all sorts of things can be done with a good cell phone.

The TTS system is the best one out there right now for a Harley.  They were one of the few companies to give the average guy a chance to do do this at home. 

There is a few strange things such as the huge pulsing of the pulse width that simply can not be tuned out without going to open loop.  Most likely most of you all have the same issue and it would become very obvious if you simply open up the data stream and look.  I found most of this stuff three years ago.  At the time, TTS was not on the market yet and I had to come up with some way to tune my totally stock Sporty.  It had the worst EFI calibration I had ever tried to ride and watching the data stream, for close to a year, was the only option I had at the time.  I do not tune for a living so at the time it was an obsession. 

I have not hooked up a laptop to a Harley for close to a year.  My bike is that good at this point.  If software ever came out that I had the ability to adjust the o2 feed back to work correctly, I may consider messing with it.  The usable power band of my bike is about 2000 RPM wider than it was from the factory.

Hope this helps

Andy

[whittlebeast]

Here is a data log off of my stock bike when I was testing for the guy that makes the _IEDs.  On the left is the bike running the ViEDs and on the right is the same bike doing almost the identical pull with o2 eliminators.  The most telling trace is the PctFuelFront.  This function was created by me to figure out just how serious the pulsing was and to prove it was the o2s that was causing the ridability issues.  As it turned out, the bike was transformed once the o2s were knocked out of the system.  The bike was still too lean as I rolled into the throttle as I found out that these bikes when stock, stay closed loop till close to 80 KPA.  That is way deep into the throttle.

Look how the PctFuelFront calmed down on the trace on the right.  The motor was far happier.  Note that the software that I use has the ability to create any function that can be made up of any of the available fields that you already have.  This is how I created the PctFuelFront. 

PctFuelFront = 100 * (([Injector PW Front] -[InjectorOpenTime]) / (([Injector PW Front]-[InjectorOpenTime]) + ([Injector PW Rear])-[InjectorOpenTime]))

http://www.ncs-stl.com/fuel/O2_Vs_O2Elim.jpg

Note that everything I have posted here can be done with free software once you own a TTS.  Lots of this can be done with the new stuff by FuelMoto but I have not played with it yet.

Have fun tuning

AW

[strokerjlk]

There is a few strange things such as the huge pulsing of the pulse width that simply can not be tuned out without going to open loop.  Most likely most of you all have the same issue and it would become very obvious if you simply open up the data stream and look.  I found most of this stuff three years ago.  At the time, TTS was not on the market yet and I had to come up with some way to tune my totally stock Sporty.  It had the worst EFI calibration I had ever tried to ride

sportsters are finicky for sure. what kind of idle AFR did you see on the bike when it was bone stock? talking about with the narrow bands in and functioning.

[whittlebeast]

Sportsters are finicky for sure.  What kind of idle AFR did you see on the bike when it was bone stock?  Talking about with the narrow bands in and functioning.

I never bothered to hook up the wide band to the Sporty.  Just watching the pulse width and backing into the numbers was plenty to realize the AFR swing was fairly huge and would never work. At the time I was testing for night rider and we realized that if you shift the AFR swing about .75 AFR that the pulsing that you felt from the seat was far better hidden.  The underlying issue was still there.  Just better hidden.  This way of tricking the ECU is functionally very similar to the CLB trick.

Most people trying to down play the issue will claim that the average AFR is 14.7, just what the EPA is requiring.  They want to skirt there way around the size of the pulse width fluctuation issue.  It is like in the Wizard of Oz when the Wizard said "don't pay attention to the guy behind the sheet".

My Sporty runs closed loop at idle and for that matter any time the bike is not accelerating.  My CLBs are all set to 450.  It idles fine.  The only thing I have non stock on the bike is a Harley Breather to cure the IAT issues that was a huge influence on the detonation that I was getting when the bike came from the factory.  Have you ever checked the IAT on your bike.  Few people have.  I often see numbers in the 160 degree range on the BTs.  Totally unacceptable...

AW

[whittlebeast]

Here is a BT trace.  You can see the same effect from the o2 feedback but the factory settings in the code are way different than what I see in the Sportys.  It is these settings that the tuners need access to.  Of all of the Harleys, the Sportys are the worst I have run across.



compared to http://www.ncs-stl.com/SertTune/MotorNeedingTuning2.jpg

AW

[FLTRI]

Lots of this can be done with the new stuff by FuelMoto but I have not played with it yet.

Have fun tuning

AW

What new FuelMoto stuff are you referring to? The Dynojet product (PV)? Or something that FuelMoto mfg'd?
Bob

[whittlebeast]

What new FuelMoto stuff are you referring to? The Dynojet product (PV)? Or something that FuelMoto mfg'd?
Bob

http://www.dynojet.com/powervision/

[rbabos]

Quote: Have you ever checked the IAT on your bike.  Few people have.  I often see numbers in the 160 degree range on the BTs.  Totally unacceptable...


I've relocated my iat last year. Defiately helps some aspects of running.
Ron

[Hilly13]

Quote: Have you ever checked the IAT on your bike.  Few people have.  I often see numbers in the 160 degree range on the BTs.  Totally unacceptable...


I've relocated my iat last year. Defiately helps some aspects of running.
Ron

Did you see any negatives in moving the sensor Ron?

[wurk_truk]

Now... where is that pic that shows how close the new O2 placement REALLY is?  It has two sharpies stuck in the holes...

[Rider57]

Sorry, but it's not reversion. Every gasoline engine out there has EGR. I do not care who or what it is. For those of us that design them we call it Internal EGR or External EGR. Internal EGR is a function of engine design and External EGR is an EGR valve that most of you are use too. An external EGR valve is an emissions control device so by law the OEM has to warranty it for 5 years or 50,000 miles so many engine manufactures are spending more time with the engine design to not have to use External EGR.

Since all motors have at least internal EGR the ECM has to know how much it is getting from either source for the fuel calculations. So what we have done with the Cam Selector updates is to also add the EGR in for both cylinders as well. This will allow the people who really want to do a complete tune to set things up for the components that are on the bike. Those who do a quickie tune now can continue to do so.

YES!!

[hrdtail78]

What new FuelMoto stuff are you referring to? The Dynojet product (PV)? Or something that FuelMoto mfg'd?
Bob

http://www.dynojet.com/powervision/

Can it or not is still a up in the air thing.

■Display all J1850 H-D vehicle data as well as wide band air-fuel ratio2 and various calculated channels (such as MPG instant and trip MPG) ■AutoTune Basic and Pro3 â€" calculates and stores fuel trims to optimize fuel curve ■Check and clear diagnostic codes
■Reset adaptive fuel trims and idle offset (with bike running)

But lets take a look at the notes:

3Auto Tune feature currently in development
So I will only count the chickens that have been hatched.  I know the mastertune hasn't been updated either, but I saw that at the show.

[rbabos]

Quote: Have you ever checked the IAT on your bike.  Few people have.  I often see numbers in the 160 degree range on the BTs.  Totally unacceptable...


I've relocated my iat last year. Defiately helps some aspects of running.
Ron

Did you see any negatives in moving the sensor Ron?

Nothing I can see. Then again, I don't have tons of equipment to disect the tune down to the level of the atom like some do. As long as it runs smooth, pulls hard and gets decent mpg I'm happy.
Might be a tad richer in afr if I had to take a guess, since most of the map is open loop. I will try closed loop again on the newer MT8 cal and see how that goes.
Ron

[whittlebeast]

Ron

At what IAT do you start to panic? 125, 150, 200, 250?...   Note that this number has to be taken wile the bike is on the track in racing conditions and not as tested on the dyno.  Airflow is completely different in the real world.

AW

[rbabos]

Ron

At what IAT do you start to panic? 125, 150, 200, 250?...   Note that this number has to be taken wile the bike is on the track in racing conditions and not as tested on the dyno.  Airflow is completely different in the real world.

AW

Heat soaked hot starts were in the 185 range. Normal driving summer time was around the 120-140. City driving, stop and go ran the temp back up to the 180 range. Ambient air temp was 85 during this log event dealing with normal driving conditions. Well, most of the time. I felt this was too much of a temp swing.
Ron

[whittlebeast]

Wow, 180 is huge.  My bike hammered with detonation when it was stock and was sucking 140 deg air.

So how do you guys tell if the air filter is free flowing enough when tuning a customers bike?

[FLTRI]

So how do you guys tell if the air filter is free flowing enough when tuning a customers bike?

Of all testing that is the easiest.
Do back-to-back...to-back tests. Typically, I will tune a bike. Remove the A/F. See if power and/or fueling changes. Then replace the A/F to see if power resets to prior to A/F removal.
Bob

[whittlebeast]

Do you totally retune the bike between tests? 

Do you look at the WOT logs to see what the MAP was reading at max Duty Cycle?   A pressure drop of just a few KPA can be fairly huge. 

I tend to to warn the owner If I ever see IATs gaining any more than about 30 degrees over ambient air temp or any time I see more than a couple of KPA drop thur the filter.  Depending on what I am tuning. I tend to also check average back pressure in the exhaust at max injector duty cycle with a gauge in the o2 bung.

Just wondering how you guys deal with all the poor engineering out there and if you use this software to help locate the bottlenecks.  This is where the TTS stuff smokes the competition.

AW

[FLTRI]

Do you totally re-tune the bike between tests?

Not necessary to quantify the A/F's flow capability, just the WOT.

Do you look at the WOT logs to see what the MAP was reading at max Duty Cycle?   A pressure drop of just a few KPA can be fairly huge. 

I tend to to warn the owner If I ever see IATs gaining any more than about 30 degrees over ambient air temp or any time I see more than a couple of KPA drop thru the filter.  Depending on what I am tuning. I tend to also check average back pressure in the exhaust at max injector duty cycle with a gauge in the o2 bung.

Just wondering how you guys deal with all the poor engineering out there and if you use this software to help locate the bottlenecks.  This is where the TTS stuff smokes the competition.

Andy, Andy, Andy, we are talking personally modified street bikes here that folks change to their liking, mainly looks. Higher performance is expected to go with the looks.

Educating the owner as to how the mods affect their performance, rather than warning him/her is IMO, a better approach. Letting them know the limitations of their modification decisions and offering realistic expectations before the tune is best IME.

On another note: Do you feel moving the IAT sensor to a cooler area helps the system work better?
Bob
PS - Still waiting for the list of analytical softwares you have to use for the vehicle with 5 data loggers.

[whittlebeast]

Most of the installs that I get involved are so expensive and unique the owner is having difficulty finding anyone that will touch the tuning process.  Sometimes I have never seen the software before I get sucked into the tune.  It is often a real challenge just to get my head around the setup let alone the software  The fun stuff is the Honda, Lotus/Toyota and Subaru software.  The tables go on and on.

Regarding IAT sensor location:  The IAT should always be located to get as close to the real IAT at the intake valve as possible.  We never relocate them to a less accurate place like at the front tire to get a cooler reading. The IATis there to estimate and calculate the air density.  This is huge on the turbo installs.

I am just getting started on the tuning of the Mustang so where the software leads me is yet to be determined.  It all depends how good the standard software is.  Most often the data gets exported into Excel or megalogviewer to bit-bang it down depending on what I am looking for.

AW

[blusmbl]

I tend to to warn the owner If I ever see IATs gaining any more than about 30 degrees over ambient air temp or any time I see more than a couple of KPA drop thur the filter.

The restriction could be the air filter or the throttle body itself.  Without additional instrumentation it's hard to say for certain unless you start swapping out parts.

[hrdtail78]

I dont understand why max duty cycle?  Hopefully max duty cycle isn't hit during a WOT run.  You mention it for exhaust pressure reading also.  Just trying to understand this.  If I am reading 100kpa with engine not running and do WOT pulls and my MAP starts dropping up near 4500 and continues to drop till redline.  I consider that a restriction.

[whittlebeast]

I dont understand why max duty cycle?  Hopefully max duty cycle isn't hit during a WOT run.  You mention it for exhaust pressure reading also.  Just trying to understand this.  If I am reading 100kpa with engine not running and do WOT pulls and my MAP starts dropping up near 4500 and continues to drop till redline.  I consider that a restriction.

Max Duty Cycle is when the injectors are spraying as much fuel as this motor needs per time.  That should be real close to the max air flow per unit time

AFR is Air Fuel Ratio

AW

[hrdtail78]

That makes some sense.  Thought you were refering to maxed out injectors.

[whittlebeast]

That makes some sense.  Thought you were referring to maxed out injectors.

Hang in there.  This all gets simpler with time and playing with it.

AW

[ultraswede]

Max Duty Cycle is when the injectors are spraying as much fuel as this motor needs per time.

That might be true for your combo.

Max Duty Cycle is normally used to describe how long the valve in the injector should be activated by the coil.
If duty cycle is 100%, then the valve is never closed, the coils sees an activating voltage all the time.
i.e max fuel flow from the injector has been reached.

There are different opinions on how close to 100% is safe, the closer to 100% the tune goes,
the less accurate fuel metering and the reserve for the ECM to add fuel to compensate various driving conditions disappears.

Personally I feel that a Duty Cycle of more than 90% is marginal, much better with 80% at max Tq.

The only way of lowering the Duty Cycle in a given application, is to use a bigger injector, or increasing the fuel pressure.

[whittlebeast]

I am talking the Max Duty Cycle that the injector is running at on this build as reported by the data logs.  Not the max allowable Duty Cycle.

In the case of my stock Sporty it is around 60%

AW

[ultraswede]

Gotcha 

[hrdtail78]

Max Duty Cycle is when the injectors are spraying as much fuel as this motor needs per time.

That might be true for your combo.

Max Duty Cycle is normally used to describe how long the valve in the injector should be activated by the coil.
If duty cycle is 100%, then the valve is never closed, the coils sees an activating voltage all the time.
i.e max fuel flow from the injector has been reached.

There are different opinions on how close to 100% is safe, the closer to 100% the tune goes,
the less accurate fuel metering and the reserve for the ECM to add fuel to compensate various driving conditions disappears.

Personally I feel that a Duty Cycle of more than 90% is marginal, much better with 80% at max Tq.

The only way of lowering the Duty Cycle in a given application, is to use a bigger injector, or increasing the fuel pressure.

Thats how I understand it also.  I see what Andy is saying.  It's the different of max duty cycle on that build, not max duty cycle of the injector.  In came my confusion.  Cleared up now.

[Steve Cole]

There is TONS of information that WB is missing here people so be very careful with what he is saying. First and for most he tends to skip things about data resolution ie: the rate at which the data was taken! If you can only sample at 4 frames per second you cannot interpret that data anywhere close to what he is trying to tell you as the system is too slow. So first look at the data rate before you try and do any of what he is saying as it will do nothing but get you into trouble!

[FLTRI]

Here's a quick test concerning IAT:
What makes up (included in) the air the HD IAT sensor reads?
Bob

[ultraswede]

What makes up (included in) the air the HD IAT sensor reads?

Good question,
but I would be very surprised if there wasn't a calculation going on where the MEASURED IAT is weighted against engine temp and possibly Rpm, and reported as the IAT.
I have seen such a function in a different Delphi ECU, for which I tune.

[whittlebeast]

Bob

Please reword that question   Not sure what you are asking.

AW

[Steve Cole]

Most of the installs that I get involved are so expensive and unique the owner is having difficulty finding anyone that will touch the tuning process.  Sometimes I have never seen the software before I get sucked into the tune.  It is often a real challenge just to get my head around the setup let alone the software  The fun stuff is the Honda, Lotus/Toyota and Subaru software.  The tables go on and on.

Regarding IAT sensor location:  The IAT should always be located to get as close to the real IAT at the intake valve as possible.  We never relocate them to a less accurate place like at the front tire to get a cooler reading. The IATis there to estimate and calculate the air density.  This is huge on the turbo installs.

I am just getting started on the tuning of the Mustang so where the software leads me is yet to be determined.  It all depends how good the standard software is.  Most often the data gets exported into Excel or megalogviewer to bit-bang it down depending on what I am looking for.

AW

Note the part in RED.

Let's think about what is really going on while the motor is running. You have air that enters the air filter of "X" temperature. That air is then routed to the cylinder via the intake manifold and throttle body which is connected to the cylinder head. You also have air that enters the intake manifold from the cylinder of "y" temperature! Now let's talk just a little about the temperature sensor itself, it's a thermistor. Thermistor's are slow to respond so they will not measure quick changes in temperature so what you see is more of an average of the air temperature. Which in the HD case is what you want.

What we are after is to know the temperature of the air entering in the cylinder, NOT what outside air temperature is! Since the HD intake volume is so low it has it's own set of problems and none of the car world stuff applies other than theory! So now we have "x" temperature from the air cleaner and "y" temperature for the cylinder feed air and some small influence of heat soaking of the parts. Add this all together and you get the temperature of the air entering the cylinder which is what we need to know to properly calculate the mass of the air for the fuel calculations.

So if you had air cleaner air temperature at 80 degrees and cylinder air temperature at 1200 degrees mixed together what would you expect the result to be? Then add another 5 degrees on top for the heat soaking that goes on and you would have your answer. So why would moving the temperature sensor that some say is too hot and inaccurate to a different location where it reads cooler now make the system accurate? It doesn't 

[whittlebeast]

SC

Are you referring to air from  reversion at 1200 degrees making it to the IAT sensor?

AW

[FLTRI]

Andy,

...Are you referring to air from  reversion at 1200 degrees making it to the IAT sensor?

Bingo!

re: IAT relocation:
Relocating the IAT sensor to a cooler place simply lies to the ECM so it enrichens the AFR because it thinks the engine is running at lower temperature than actual. This was an old hotrodder trick used back in the 70's when there was nothing but tricks available to hotrodders.
Today we can actually change the calibration to fix running issues rather than trick to system based on lies.
Bob

[whittlebeast]

Just thinking out loud here...

If the intake had a ton of reversion going on at some RPM that actually was making it all the way back to the IAT, would you get a huge spike if you held that RPM for a wile?

Never really thought about it.  Never had it come up???

AW

[Steve Cole]

You need to go back as I've said over and over again and LEARN about a HD engine prior to making some of the comments you have. The IAT location is only about 5" from the intake valve, the volume of the manifold is very low so it pushes the hot air right to the sensor, and that HOT air is real! When the exhaust closes and the cylinder pressure drops below manifold pressure all that hot air gets drawn back into the cylinder.  As I stated before, real world testing not dreams on paper are what count.

[wurk_truk]

 

Good explanations on this subject.

[rbabos]

Andy,

...Are you referring to air from  reversion at 1200 degrees making it to the IAT sensor?

Bingo!

re: IAT relocation:
Relocating the IAT sensor to a cooler place simply lies to the ECM so it enrichens the AFR because it thinks the engine is running at lower temperature than actual. This was an old hotrodder trick used back in the 70's when there was nothing but tricks available to hotrodders.
Today we can actually change the calibration to fix running issues rather than trick to system based on lies.
Bob

Bob: When an engine is running  for a period of time the iat stabilizes in temp from the air going through the tb. Down the road it cools even more.
Let's use my bike as an example. Open loop with 14.0 gave the best idle afr in normal conditions of driving and coming up to a stop. So far so good.
Shut the bike down, go get a coffee or smoke and the iat climbs up to 180 ish. This high heat soaked always leaned the idle for about a minute or two (rough running) until enough air went through the tb to bring the set idle afr somewhat back in line for a good idle. As far as I know there is no compensation from the O2s when set in open loop idle and in this build closed loop (730 ish CLB) idle sucked at any part of the heat equazion.
By moving the iat to the front of the SE elbow, it still runs warmer than ambient but doesn't get cooked to the temp the tb would do. Since doing this, hot start are smooth, just like normal temp idle.
Running closed loop, if the engine will tolerate it at idle would likely not show this issue and it would be fine.
I'm not fooling the ecm, only making it work for me in this open loop area. For no other reason, I felt the first couple minutes after a hot start the iat was reading heat soak and not the actual air coming into the tb. Hot , less dense air requires less fuel=leaner.
Don't know how anyone can possibly argue against that fact.
Ron

[Steve Cole]

Go look and see what the IAT is made out of. You will find it is plastic as far as I know. Plastic does not heat soak as metal does and once cool air runs across it they follow that temperature pretty closely to what the air temperature is. In the ones I've tested it takes about 1/4 second for this to happen. Once beyond that time frame the IAT is reading what is really there. What is really there is what is entering the motor and that is what the ECM needs to calculate the mass air from.

[whittlebeast]

You need to go back as I've said over and over again and LEARN about a HD engine prior to making some of the comments you have. The IAT location is only about 5" from the intake valve, the volume of the manifold is very low so it pushes the hot air right to the sensor, and that HOT air is real! When the exhaust closes and the cylinder pressure drops below manifold pressure all that hot air gets drawn back into the cylinder.  As I stated before, real world testing not dreams on paper are what count.

Does this all fall into the definition of VE.  The correction for all the things that the sensors miss or can't measure?

AW

[rbabos]

Go look and see what the IAT is made out of. You will find it is plastic as far as I know. Plastic does not heat soak as metal does and once cool air runs across it they follow that temperature pretty closely to what the air temperature is. In the ones I've tested it takes about 1/4 second for this to happen. Once beyond that time frame the IAT is reading what is really there. What is really there is what is entering the motor and that is what the ECM needs to calculate the mass air from.

Steve: 1/4 second. Something must be wrong with datamaster then,  since it works out to minutes for me. The fact that the iat runs 30-40 over ambient all the time tells me it's picking up heat from the tb housing. On a cold start the iat matches ambient temps.  Conduction is from the wires, both external and internal terminating in a blob of epoxy. Not the sharpest marble in the package but pretty sure my engine isn't sucking 180 air temp at idle. Flow even at idle is too fast to conduct the heat from the tb walls to actually supply that displayed 180 iat temp air to the engine. Same with wfo and a reading of 140*. Actual air entering the cyls at that extreme rate of flow would most likely be ambient, regardless of what the iat says.
In the end I would hope we can agree that it matters a rat's a$$ what the iat is as long as the tune is performed in that temp state. As well as when in closed loop the 180 heat soak would be compenstated with the O2s, but only after they light up. I was just able to see the fk up by the need to run open loop in my problem areas.
Ron

[Hilly13]

Steve at the risk of looking like a goose, what your saying is that the iat is measuring the combined temp of fresh air from the filter and the reversion from the cylinder so in actual fact it is measuring exactly what temp the air going into the cylinders is....yes? So at idle with either a cold or hot engine what it says is what is going in and that is what the ecm needs to give the right fuel, so if you tune it properly and trim the tables to suit the build all is well....right track or no?

[FLTRI]

Steve at the risk of looking like a goose, what your saying is that the iat is measuring the combined temp of fresh air from the filter and the reversion from the cylinder so in actual fact it is measuring exactly what temp the air going into the cylinders is....yes? So at idle with either a cold or hot engine what it says is what is going in and that is what the ecm needs to give the right fuel, so if you tune it properly and trim the tables to suit the build all is well....right track or no?

You are switched on here. The sensor reports ACTUAL temperature of intake charge. It can only report what it sees. If the IAT is high it is because the air is that hot.
Intake manifold heat soak, ambient temperature, and reversion all affect ACTUAL readings.
IME, covering the facts up by putting the sensor in a place that IS NOT SEEING ACTUAL INTAKE TEMPERATURE is just ignoring the facts and fudging to get results.

HTH,
Bob

[Steve Cole]

Go look and see what the IAT is made out of. You will find it is plastic as far as I know. Plastic does not heat soak as metal does and once cool air runs across it they follow that temperature pretty closely to what the air temperature is. In the ones I've tested it takes about 1/4 second for this to happen. Once beyond that time frame the IAT is reading what is really there. What is really there is what is entering the motor and that is what the ECM needs to calculate the mass air from.

Steve: 1/4 second. Something must be wrong with datamaster then,  since it works out to minutes for me. The fact that the iat runs 30-40 over ambient all the time tells me it's picking up heat from the tb housing. On a cold start the iat matches ambient temps.  Conduction is from the wires, both external and internal terminating in a blob of epoxy. Not the sharpest marble in the package but pretty sure my engine isn't sucking 180 air temp at idle. Flow even at idle is too fast to conduct the heat from the tb walls to actually supply that displayed 180 iat temp air to the engine. Same with wfo and a reading of 140*. Actual air entering the cyls at that extreme rate of flow would most likely be ambient, regardless of what the iat says.
In the end I would hope we can agree that it matters a rat's a$$ what the iat is as long as the tune is performed in that temp state. As well as when in closed loop the 180 heat soak would be compenstated with the O2s. I was just able to see the fk up by the need to run open loop in my problem areas.
Ron

Please explain how you feel something is wrong with DataMaster?

[cts1950]

I have been reading about the IAT and I see some persons talking about relocating the sensor away from its original location to possibly ahead of the throttle plate. I see others talking about trying to relocate where the intake air is picked up away from the heat of the engine and exhaust. I am sure the Harley heavy breather is for more than looks. Some tuners claim they saw a measurable improvement by just adding a heavy breather only. Cold air intakes are popular on most cars and trucks. The cooler the intake air the more expansion in the cylinder ie more power. Is there any effect of the heavy breather also by increasing the intake column of air to help reduce the exhaust reversion?


I am interested in more info about the data transfer rate. Am I to understand that that each piece of data comes through at 250ms or it takes 250ms for the serial data to repeat. Is Data Master able give you option to monitor fewer paramiters to increase the cycle rate or is that a fixed rate.

[Hilly13]

Steve at the risk of looking like a goose, what your saying is that the iat is measuring the combined temp of fresh air from the filter and the reversion from the cylinder so in actual fact it is measuring exactly what temp the air going into the cylinders is....yes? So at idle with either a cold or hot engine what it says is what is going in and that is what the ecm needs to give the right fuel, so if you tune it properly and trim the tables to suit the build all is well....right track or no?

You are switched on here. The sensor reports ACTUAL temperature of intake charge. It can only report what it sees. If the IAT is high it is because the air is that hot.
Intake manifold heat soak, ambient temperature, and reversion all affect ACTUAL readings.
IME, covering the facts up by putting the sensor in a place that IS NOT SEEING ACTUAL INTAKE TEMPERATURE is just ignoring the facts and fudging to get results.

HTH,
Bob

Thanks Bob   

[blusmbl]

The cooler the intake air the more expansion in the cylinder ie more power.

With colder air you're actually getting more air molecules in the cylinder per a given cylinder filling event, as it's denser per a given volume.  More air requires more fuel to operate at a given a/f ratio, which equals more power produced at the wheel.

[Tsani]

Which is why Harleys run run so fine in the fall!

[Steve Cole]

Anything you do to  improve the temperature in the intake is going to be a positive effect on the way the motor runs. The trick to making it better is not to move the sensor but improve the airflow to the current location.

If you look in DataMaster when going to record it will tell you the rate at which it is recording at. The problem is with the data buss and there is not much anyone can do about it. The speed issue is just why we have various "Data Type" settings for you to record with, as the more you ask for the slower it goes. Look at the rate it records at when  you select "Dyno Data" versus the rate it records when you ask for "Generic O2 Data". The data transfer rate is just why we made it the way that we did.

[cts1950]

So in laymans terms the serial data coming from the ECM is in a form of a sentence. The words will always be in the same order for each sentence, The words represent a place holder for a given piece of data, such as Throttle position ,VE front and so on. Each word comes through at a given clock rate.  If I get what you are saying The variable is the data that is asked from the ECM for each of the types of data being asked for example Generic Data, Dyno Data, Generic O2, V Tune and Spark Data controls the length of the sentence . Am I mistaken by selecting fewer items in the opening page table of data master and selecting NONE for all of the data I am not interested in and selecting just 4 items for example rather than 26 by defalt that will not speed up the data transfer rate.

[hrdtail78]

It shows you how fast it is recording on the "Data Recording Control" screen.  Not the Data Master screen.  Thanks to Vickie for pointing this out to me.

[Tsani]

Imagine a 4 inch pipe, being fed by 4 other 4 inch pipes, each with a different product in them. If all the feeder pipes hav ethe same pressure and flow rates, and feeding the main pipe at the same, then you may get max flow out, but a limited amount of each product.  Close half the feeder pipes, and the you get more of a sample of the other two products, etc. Max flow is max flow, period. Now add a fifth feeder pipe. It would seem that the product samples from the others seem to slow down.  So what it comes down to is choose the product samples you need to get the job done and you will see more of the samples in a given amount of time.

[FLTRI]

With colder air you're actually getting more air molecules in the cylinder per a given cylinder filling event, as it's denser per a given volume.  More air requires more fuel to operate at a given a/f ratio, which equals more power produced at the wheel.

Bob

[rbabos]

Go look and see what the IAT is made out of. You will find it is plastic as far as I know. Plastic does not heat soak as metal does and once cool air runs across it they follow that temperature pretty closely to what the air temperature is. In the ones I've tested it takes about 1/4 second for this to happen. Once beyond that time frame the IAT is reading what is really there. What is really there is what is entering the motor and that is what the ECM needs to calculate the mass air from.

Steve: 1/4 second. Something must be wrong with datamaster then,  since it works out to minutes for me. The fact that the iat runs 30-40 over ambient all the time tells me it's picking up heat from the tb housing. On a cold start the iat matches ambient temps.  Conduction is from the wires, both external and internal terminating in a blob of epoxy. Not the sharpest marble in the package but pretty sure my engine isn't sucking 180 air temp at idle. Flow even at idle is too fast to conduct the heat from the tb walls to actually supply that displayed 180 iat temp air to the engine. Same with wfo and a reading of 140*. Actual air entering the cyls at that extreme rate of flow would most likely be ambient, regardless of what the iat says.
In the end I would hope we can agree that it matters a rat's a$$ what the iat is as long as the tune is performed in that temp state. As well as when in closed loop the 180 heat soak would be compenstated with the O2s. I was just able to see the fk up by the need to run open loop in my problem areas.
Ron

Please explain how you feel something is wrong with DataMaster?

Steve: Just yanking your chain. No problems with it.
Ron

[rbabos]

Just throwing this out there regarding EGR reaching the iat sensor. Would this not cause the intake runners to become black especially on richer running engines? Wouldn't this indicate exhaust flowing back into the intake? I've not seen this and have to wonder if EGR doesn't go much past the intake valve itself.
Taking a cold engine and reving it won't increase the iat temp in my case, which is why I'm sceptical about the egr influence on the iat. The iat climbs as the head temp increases warming up the intake and tb basically following the head temp. This is what I've determined with grass roots testing.
Ron

[Tsani]

I should have taken and posted photos of my throttle body and intake manifold. It showed EGR and just how far in it can go. I didn't realize what I was looking at till the subject came up.

[Tsani]

Ah, but I did! Here ya go, post #37 & 38:
http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,34205.25.html

[rbabos]

Ah, but I did! Here ya go, post #37 & 38:
http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,34205.25.html

Cool. Real world tell tail signs of egr. I have that as well in the valve area, but none around the injectors. This would make sense as some cams would have an overall effect on the extent of this . Thanks for posting the pics.
Ron

[Tsani]

Wasn't till I read this thread that it clicked as to what I was looking at.

[Steve Cole]

How much EGR gets into the intake will vary based on the head valve job, exhaust back pressure and camshaft overlap. Some porters spend no time seeing how well a port and valve flow backwards while others spend a bunch of time trying to improve it. So just because a port job on the intake flows "X" amount, really leaves a lot of how the head works out. Many times a port that flows a little less the right direction but flows 1/2 as much in the reverse direction will perform much better overall and EGR or the lack there of, is a big reason for it.

Tsani pictures show it only too well but just because you cannot see it doesn't mean it's not there.

[hrdtail78]

Ah, but I did! Here ya go, post #37 & 38:
http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,34205.25.html

Cool. Real world tell tail signs of egr. I have that as well in the valve area, but none around the injectors. This would make sense as some cams would have an overall effect on the extent of this . Thanks for posting the pics.
Ron

If it pushes into the cylinder and intake port?  Where does the air go that was there?  That cleaner air is pushed into your TB or other cylinder.  I would guess some of the color is air/oil mist.  Not just black sooty exhaust.

[wolf_59]

Ah, but I did! Here ya go, post #37 & 38:
http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,34205.25.html

Good job  pictures make the discussion easier to understand 

[wavlovr1]

Just me going off the wall again....

Cam timing, design, valves, ports, etc. are really like a time machine. Especially a high rpm performance setup. The valve opening and closing times are usually designed for a rapidly spinning engine and have to anticipate the "future" as far as the movement of air and fuel because the whole cycle is happening so fast. It's almost a time warp. When you slow these motors down the valve timing and all those other high performance factors are no longer in sync with what the motor is needing now. Tuning has to hit a fine line between now and future based events. Just another picture from my warped cognitive perspective. Burned or burning gases have a tendency to flow backwards as a result, until you approach the situation where everything meets the future events accomplished by high rpms. Then all those factors blend to create a more effective flow and thereby more power.

There are things that impact and can limit this back flow, but I doubt many builders spend much time defining and improving these areas. WOT is usually the most common goal. I was attending a design seminar on a new acura engine many years ago, when they presented the concept of manifold length impacting flow at different ends of the rpm spectrum. Their solution was to design an intake manifold that actually changed runner length and shape based on engine rpm. Tall straight runners for high rpm, short curved runners for low rpms. The idea being that fuel/air in a slower motor needs some resistance for mixing or complete vaporizing of fuel. The high rpm motor just needed a straight shot due to the increased speed requiement of the air/fuel movement. Plenty of other makers use a simular design today. Not that this will help your harley any...

Sorry, I didn't take my meds today..

jb

[rbabos]

Ah, but I did! Here ya go, post #37 & 38:
http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,34205.25.html

Cool. Real world tell tail signs of egr. I have that as well in the valve area, but none around the injectors. This would make sense as some cams would have an overall effect on the extent of this . Thanks for posting the pics.
Ron

If it pushes into the cylinder and intake port?  Where does the air go that was there?  That cleaner air is pushed into your TB or other cylinder.  I would guess some of the color is air/oil mist.  Not just black sooty exhaust.

+1 on the oil air mist. Prior to doing this build the 96" using the SE Heavy breather made the whole inside of the intake track disgusting with black oily crap. Decided externals were a better choice on the 113. Pretty clean in there now even after 13k. Around the intake valves is a bit sooty, and now I know why.
Ron

[wurk_truk]

+1 on the oil air mist. Prior to doing this build the 96" using the SE Heavy breather made the whole inside of the intake track disgusting with black oily crap. Decided externals were a better choice on the 113. Pretty clean in there now even after 13k. Around the intake valves is a bit sooty, and now I know why.
Ron

My findings exactly Ron.  When I tore the bike down 5k after the build...  The tracks were clean with soot at the beginning of the intake track.  Carb (TB) end of manifold was brand new clean.

[Tsani]

I can say the stuff wasn't oily nor was it a dry fluffy soot. For me, till this discussion, was how the areas around the injectors looked. Almost like looking at swirl/cubustion patterns in a head. There is an area around the injector that looks clean like it is washed with fuel.  And one heads manifold port was worse than the other. All parts of a puzzle.

And I would really like to to say thanks to Steve and the rest of you for bringing this up. Really. I had the wrong idea about "reversion". Always thought it was a exhaust event only. Never too old to learn!