All Things TTS Can Adjust

[whittlebeast]

This log has an example of the sort of thin I ma looking for.  Look right in the center of the pull where the Stock DC held flat for a few 1/10s of a sec and the PC3DC made the situation even worse.  You can also see a corresponding dip in the RPM per sec trace.  That is a good indication something is going wrong right at 6000 RPM.  There is no dip in TPS to explain the in acceleration.  That is a prime place to bump the VE at that point to test for a positive response.  With TTS I would also look for dips the O2 voltage indicating issues.

http://www.ncs-stl.com/PowerCommander/SecondGearPullBase.jpg

You may never get your head around the source of the dip but none the less it is there and worth investigating.  I normally run accelerometers to check for matching data.

see http://www.ncs-stl.com/PowerCommander/PC3LogVsAccelLog.jpg

That sort of thing.

AW

[whittlebeast]

Here is an example of a bike with a serious AFR control issue causing pulsation at steady state riding.  A quick look at the pulse width revealed the source if the pulsing of power.  This entire trace is about 30 sec.

http://www.ncs-stl.com/SertTune/MotorNeedingTuning2.jpg

Notice that the MAP, throttle position, and VE were all dead steady indicating that the source was coming from somewhere other than the VE table.  The swing in pulse width was enough to cause a full 1 AFR swing every second that matched to observations from the seat.

AW

[ultraswede]

WB
what you posted below is a prime example of how a good closed loop log should look like.
As I am sure you already know, the catalyst must be saturated with oxygen, and then depleted of oxygen, that's the reason
the air fuel mixture is switched (switching o2 sensors) between rich lean as can be seen on the attached log.

Perfectly normal I would say.

[whittlebeast]

Normal/typical possibly but unacceptable from a drivability standpoint.

Here is an example of using accelerometers to check the AE settings.  This is progressively higher RPM throttle stabs.  I was not running the motor data logger on that ride.

http://www.ncs-stl.com/fz1/3_4_5000_Stab.jpg

Here is the same bike with the resolution zoomed in.  In this screen shot I am going from 0 geez to about .85 geez in .4 sec.  This is normally how I have to balance the AE settings between low speed drivability roll-on and full on throttle stabs.

http://www.ncs-stl.com/fz1/FZ4000RpmPunch.jpg

AW

[1FSTRK]

whittlebeast
I’m having some trouble following some of your theory, or at least making the connections to the many unique characteristics of the Harley motor and Delphi operating system. Could you please post some recordings of Harley data and what you did with TTS to solve the problem, or what you were lacking from TTS that would have enabled you to solve the problem? This is all fairly new and a little complicated to most of us. It is often easier to follow new concept if we stay with a single test subject shown with different problem examples and cures.
Thanks   

[whittlebeast]

My point is all motors and fueling comes down to suck, squish, bang, blow.  In the case of EFI we add the option of data logging.  Use it to your advantage.  It is huge.  There is a wealth of info on that data stream.  Other supporting data can also be for cheep now that all sorts of things can be done with a good cell phone.

The TTS system is the best one out there right now for a Harley.  They were one of the few companies to give the average guy a chance to do do this at home. 

There is a few strange things such as the huge pulsing of the pulse width that simply can not be tuned out without going to open loop.  Most likely most of you all have the same issue and it would become very obvious if you simply open up the data stream and look.  I found most of this stuff three years ago.  At the time, TTS was not on the market yet and I had to come up with some way to tune my totally stock Sporty.  It had the worst EFI calibration I had ever tried to ride and watching the data stream, for close to a year, was the only option I had at the time.  I do not tune for a living so at the time it was an obsession. 

I have not hooked up a laptop to a Harley for close to a year.  My bike is that good at this point.  If software ever came out that I had the ability to adjust the o2 feed back to work correctly, I may consider messing with it.  The usable power band of my bike is about 2000 RPM wider than it was from the factory.

Hope this helps

Andy

[whittlebeast]

Here is a data log off of my stock bike when I was testing for the guy that makes the _IEDs.  On the left is the bike running the ViEDs and on the right is the same bike doing almost the identical pull with o2 eliminators.  The most telling trace is the PctFuelFront.  This function was created by me to figure out just how serious the pulsing was and to prove it was the o2s that was causing the ridability issues.  As it turned out, the bike was transformed once the o2s were knocked out of the system.  The bike was still too lean as I rolled into the throttle as I found out that these bikes when stock, stay closed loop till close to 80 KPA.  That is way deep into the throttle.

Look how the PctFuelFront calmed down on the trace on the right.  The motor was far happier.  Note that the software that I use has the ability to create any function that can be made up of any of the available fields that you already have.  This is how I created the PctFuelFront. 

PctFuelFront = 100 * (([Injector PW Front] -[InjectorOpenTime]) / (([Injector PW Front]-[InjectorOpenTime]) + ([Injector PW Rear])-[InjectorOpenTime]))

http://www.ncs-stl.com/fuel/O2_Vs_O2Elim.jpg

Note that everything I have posted here can be done with free software once you own a TTS.  Lots of this can be done with the new stuff by FuelMoto but I have not played with it yet.

Have fun tuning

AW

[strokerjlk]

There is a few strange things such as the huge pulsing of the pulse width that simply can not be tuned out without going to open loop.  Most likely most of you all have the same issue and it would become very obvious if you simply open up the data stream and look.  I found most of this stuff three years ago.  At the time, TTS was not on the market yet and I had to come up with some way to tune my totally stock Sporty.  It had the worst EFI calibration I had ever tried to ride

sportsters are finicky for sure. what kind of idle AFR did you see on the bike when it was bone stock? talking about with the narrow bands in and functioning.

[whittlebeast]

Sportsters are finicky for sure.  What kind of idle AFR did you see on the bike when it was bone stock?  Talking about with the narrow bands in and functioning.

I never bothered to hook up the wide band to the Sporty.  Just watching the pulse width and backing into the numbers was plenty to realize the AFR swing was fairly huge and would never work. At the time I was testing for night rider and we realized that if you shift the AFR swing about .75 AFR that the pulsing that you felt from the seat was far better hidden.  The underlying issue was still there.  Just better hidden.  This way of tricking the ECU is functionally very similar to the CLB trick.

Most people trying to down play the issue will claim that the average AFR is 14.7, just what the EPA is requiring.  They want to skirt there way around the size of the pulse width fluctuation issue.  It is like in the Wizard of Oz when the Wizard said "don't pay attention to the guy behind the sheet".

My Sporty runs closed loop at idle and for that matter any time the bike is not accelerating.  My CLBs are all set to 450.  It idles fine.  The only thing I have non stock on the bike is a Harley Breather to cure the IAT issues that was a huge influence on the detonation that I was getting when the bike came from the factory.  Have you ever checked the IAT on your bike.  Few people have.  I often see numbers in the 160 degree range on the BTs.  Totally unacceptable...

AW

[whittlebeast]

Here is a BT trace.  You can see the same effect from the o2 feedback but the factory settings in the code are way different than what I see in the Sportys.  It is these settings that the tuners need access to.  Of all of the Harleys, the Sportys are the worst I have run across.



compared to http://www.ncs-stl.com/SertTune/MotorNeedingTuning2.jpg

AW

[FLTRI]

Lots of this can be done with the new stuff by FuelMoto but I have not played with it yet.

Have fun tuning

AW

What new FuelMoto stuff are you referring to? The Dynojet product (PV)? Or something that FuelMoto mfg'd?
Bob

[whittlebeast]

What new FuelMoto stuff are you referring to? The Dynojet product (PV)? Or something that FuelMoto mfg'd?
Bob

http://www.dynojet.com/powervision/

[rbabos]

Quote: Have you ever checked the IAT on your bike.  Few people have.  I often see numbers in the 160 degree range on the BTs.  Totally unacceptable...


I've relocated my iat last year. Defiately helps some aspects of running.
Ron

[Hilly13]

Quote: Have you ever checked the IAT on your bike.  Few people have.  I often see numbers in the 160 degree range on the BTs.  Totally unacceptable...


I've relocated my iat last year. Defiately helps some aspects of running.
Ron

Did you see any negatives in moving the sensor Ron?

[wurk_truk]

Now... where is that pic that shows how close the new O2 placement REALLY is?  It has two sharpies stuck in the holes...

[Rider57]

Sorry, but it's not reversion. Every gasoline engine out there has EGR. I do not care who or what it is. For those of us that design them we call it Internal EGR or External EGR. Internal EGR is a function of engine design and External EGR is an EGR valve that most of you are use too. An external EGR valve is an emissions control device so by law the OEM has to warranty it for 5 years or 50,000 miles so many engine manufactures are spending more time with the engine design to not have to use External EGR.

Since all motors have at least internal EGR the ECM has to know how much it is getting from either source for the fuel calculations. So what we have done with the Cam Selector updates is to also add the EGR in for both cylinders as well. This will allow the people who really want to do a complete tune to set things up for the components that are on the bike. Those who do a quickie tune now can continue to do so.

YES!!

[hrdtail78]

What new FuelMoto stuff are you referring to? The Dynojet product (PV)? Or something that FuelMoto mfg'd?
Bob

http://www.dynojet.com/powervision/

Can it or not is still a up in the air thing.

■Display all J1850 H-D vehicle data as well as wide band air-fuel ratio2 and various calculated channels (such as MPG instant and trip MPG) ■AutoTune Basic and Pro3 â€" calculates and stores fuel trims to optimize fuel curve ■Check and clear diagnostic codes
■Reset adaptive fuel trims and idle offset (with bike running)

But lets take a look at the notes:

3Auto Tune feature currently in development
So I will only count the chickens that have been hatched.  I know the mastertune hasn't been updated either, but I saw that at the show.

[rbabos]

Quote: Have you ever checked the IAT on your bike.  Few people have.  I often see numbers in the 160 degree range on the BTs.  Totally unacceptable...


I've relocated my iat last year. Defiately helps some aspects of running.
Ron

Did you see any negatives in moving the sensor Ron?

Nothing I can see. Then again, I don't have tons of equipment to disect the tune down to the level of the atom like some do. As long as it runs smooth, pulls hard and gets decent mpg I'm happy.
Might be a tad richer in afr if I had to take a guess, since most of the map is open loop. I will try closed loop again on the newer MT8 cal and see how that goes.
Ron

[whittlebeast]

Ron

At what IAT do you start to panic? 125, 150, 200, 250?...   Note that this number has to be taken wile the bike is on the track in racing conditions and not as tested on the dyno.  Airflow is completely different in the real world.

AW

[rbabos]

Ron

At what IAT do you start to panic? 125, 150, 200, 250?...   Note that this number has to be taken wile the bike is on the track in racing conditions and not as tested on the dyno.  Airflow is completely different in the real world.

AW

Heat soaked hot starts were in the 185 range. Normal driving summer time was around the 120-140. City driving, stop and go ran the temp back up to the 180 range. Ambient air temp was 85 during this log event dealing with normal driving conditions. Well, most of the time. I felt this was too much of a temp swing.
Ron

[whittlebeast]

Wow, 180 is huge.  My bike hammered with detonation when it was stock and was sucking 140 deg air.

So how do you guys tell if the air filter is free flowing enough when tuning a customers bike?

[FLTRI]

So how do you guys tell if the air filter is free flowing enough when tuning a customers bike?

Of all testing that is the easiest.
Do back-to-back...to-back tests. Typically, I will tune a bike. Remove the A/F. See if power and/or fueling changes. Then replace the A/F to see if power resets to prior to A/F removal.
Bob

[whittlebeast]

Do you totally retune the bike between tests? 

Do you look at the WOT logs to see what the MAP was reading at max Duty Cycle?   A pressure drop of just a few KPA can be fairly huge. 

I tend to to warn the owner If I ever see IATs gaining any more than about 30 degrees over ambient air temp or any time I see more than a couple of KPA drop thur the filter.  Depending on what I am tuning. I tend to also check average back pressure in the exhaust at max injector duty cycle with a gauge in the o2 bung.

Just wondering how you guys deal with all the poor engineering out there and if you use this software to help locate the bottlenecks.  This is where the TTS stuff smokes the competition.

AW

[FLTRI]

Do you totally re-tune the bike between tests?

Not necessary to quantify the A/F's flow capability, just the WOT.

Do you look at the WOT logs to see what the MAP was reading at max Duty Cycle?   A pressure drop of just a few KPA can be fairly huge. 

I tend to to warn the owner If I ever see IATs gaining any more than about 30 degrees over ambient air temp or any time I see more than a couple of KPA drop thru the filter.  Depending on what I am tuning. I tend to also check average back pressure in the exhaust at max injector duty cycle with a gauge in the o2 bung.

Just wondering how you guys deal with all the poor engineering out there and if you use this software to help locate the bottlenecks.  This is where the TTS stuff smokes the competition.

Andy, Andy, Andy, we are talking personally modified street bikes here that folks change to their liking, mainly looks. Higher performance is expected to go with the looks.

Educating the owner as to how the mods affect their performance, rather than warning him/her is IMO, a better approach. Letting them know the limitations of their modification decisions and offering realistic expectations before the tune is best IME.

On another note: Do you feel moving the IAT sensor to a cooler area helps the system work better?
Bob
PS - Still waiting for the list of analytical softwares you have to use for the vehicle with 5 data loggers.

[whittlebeast]

Most of the installs that I get involved are so expensive and unique the owner is having difficulty finding anyone that will touch the tuning process.  Sometimes I have never seen the software before I get sucked into the tune.  It is often a real challenge just to get my head around the setup let alone the software  The fun stuff is the Honda, Lotus/Toyota and Subaru software.  The tables go on and on.

Regarding IAT sensor location:  The IAT should always be located to get as close to the real IAT at the intake valve as possible.  We never relocate them to a less accurate place like at the front tire to get a cooler reading. The IATis there to estimate and calculate the air density.  This is huge on the turbo installs.

I am just getting started on the tuning of the Mustang so where the software leads me is yet to be determined.  It all depends how good the standard software is.  Most often the data gets exported into Excel or megalogviewer to bit-bang it down depending on what I am looking for.

AW