All Things TTS Can Adjust

[Hilly13]

Man thats really cool happy as to be off the mark 

Thanks for setting me straight Ron 

Hilly

[Steve Cole]

Sorry, but it's not reversion. Every gasoline engine out there has EGR. I do not care who or what it is. For those of us that design them we call it Internal EGR or External EGR. Internal EGR is a function of engine design and External EGR is an EGR valve that most of you are use too. An external EGR valve is an emissions control device so by law the OEM has to warranty it for 5 years or 50,000 miles so many engine manufactures are spending more time with the engine design to not have to use External EGR.

Since all motors have at least internal EGR the ECM has to know how much it is getting from either source for the fuel calculations. So what we have done with the Cam Selector updates is to also add the EGR in for both cylinders as well. This will allow the people who really want to do a complete tune to set things up for the components that are on the bike. Those who do a quickie tune now can continue to do so.

[Hilly13]

No worries Steve, im still excited 

How is it looking for the release?

Hilly

[Steve Cole]

All the software is complete and got through final testing today. The calibrations are still being assembled and should be completed on Tuesday barring any issues with them. If that's the case you should see the updates out for the public on Wednesday.

[1FSTRK]

Steve
Great news
Hope the updater can handle the traffic Wednesday.

[Tsani]

 

[TXP]

That is great news. I had a good customer get upset with me today over giving him good advice. A competing dealer had convinced him SEPST works "exactly" like the TTS system. He was visibly agitated when I began explaining the differences between the two systems, so I invited him to walk back to the dyno and show him dyno sheets and histograms and discuss the data. After a 45 minute educational process, he scheduled a tune and went with the Mastertune. When confronted with reasonable hard data, if you can just get them to open their mind and be willing to listen, its hard to refute. To me, the first thing I have to sell the customer is me. Once they realize I do know the difference and they can have a superior product at a better price, MT over the competition is a cinch. Will the CAN bus for 11 Softails be part of next weeks projected updates? I sure hope so. The busy tuning season is now starting to hit in my area. Really excited about getting the MT8 stuff.

[mayor]

All the software is complete and got through final testing today. The calibrations are still being assembled and should be completed on Tuesday barring any issues with them. If that's the case you should see the updates out for the public on Wednesday.

is the new manuals available yet?  if not, will they be available when the software update is released? 

[whittlebeast]

VE is the final adjustment to the basic fuel equation to correct for all of the things that can not be measured with the basic sensors.  The biggest single thing that drives VE is exhaust left behind from the last exhaust stroke for whatever reason.

Is this previously hidden table the source of the huge valleys that exist in some Harley VE tables?

http://www.ncs-stl.com/SertTune/XR1200VETable.JPG

Here is a 40 meg video that explains lots of this stuff in English

http://www.diyautotune.com/videos/megasquirt_meet_08/efibasics.mov

AW

[BigD]

Sorry, but it's not reversion. Every gasoline engine out there has EGR. I do not care who or what it is. For those of us that design them we call it Internal EGR or External EGR. Internal EGR is a function of engine design and External EGR is an EGR valve that most of you are use too. An external EGR valve is an emissions control device so by law the OEM has to warranty it for 5 years or 50,000 miles so many engine manufactures are spending more time with the engine design to not have to use External EGR.

Since all motors have at least internal EGR the ECM has to know how much it is getting from either source for the fuel calculations. So what we have done with the Cam Selector updates is to also add the EGR in for both cylinders as well. This will allow the people who really want to do a complete tune to set things up for the components that are on the bike. Those who do a quickie tune now can continue to do so.

Thanks Steve!  I wasn't aware that our motors had EGR, but I'm relieved it's not an external valve.  I had an EGR valve go out on a CHevy Blazer on a regular basis.  The part was cheap, but what a PIA to replace.

[wolf_59]

Quote from a previous thread if this is true should be a pretty good tool to use

quote author=H and D Cycles link=topic=35192.msg364038#msg364038 date=1297063663]
I am writing this based off of what I remember and a few notes i wrote down, I have not used it yet, so if any of this is not %100 correct [lease do not crucify me.

The EGR (exhaust gas reversion) Tables will be used to make a lot smother V.E. tables, thus making a smother running bike. In hot mild to extreme wild builds we see a lot of high V.E. values in  low rpm due to reversion. In short hand The EGR table is a  multiplier table used to most likely decrease but can also increase your V.E. values if needed depending on what you have the values set at. The adjustment is linear by rpm only, it is not based off of map or tp like v.e. is. The smother Your V.E. tables are typically will translate over to a smother running bike. Instead of the bike reading up-down, up-down, backwards forwards it reads a nice smooth transition best seen in the 3-d map view. It will help a completely tuned cal look more like a stock cal from Steve. For example a D&D fatcat usually has a lot of reversion from 1250 to 2000 rpm and when tuned right you typically get very high V.E. values, So lets say they were anywhere from 100-110. with the EGR Table you can change the multiplier setting from 1250-2000 to decrease your V.E. by %20-3o% so your in the 70-80 range and re tune. Then look at Your V.E. table and see how it responded. If all goes well instead of have a rise then a fall then a rise you will have a nice smooth transition with no real valley. With this on top of the Cam timing, I am dying to get a hold of a mt8 cal.
[/quote]

[rbabos]

EGR is an exhaust gas recirculation valve in the auto industry. Basically it allows exhaust to enter the intake at certain vacume settings for epa reasons. No connection to our equipment.
Steve: Since you pointed out I was wrong by stating the R was reversion and the Recirculation don't apply, what does the R stand for? Only trying to get correct terminology so I don't sound like an idiot in TTS converations.
Ron

[mayor]

EGR is an exhaust gas recirculation valve in the auto industry. Basically it allows exhaust to enter the intake at certain vacuum settings for epa reasons. No connection to our equipment.
Steve: Since you pointed out I was wrong by stating the R was reversion and the Recirculation don't apply, what does the R stand for? Only trying to get correct terminology so I don't sound like an idiot in TTS conversations.

good question.  if I'm reading between the lines of Steve's responses and the reposted response from H and D Cycles correctly, the R should stand for reversion.    Since Steve was quite clear that this what not the case, I'm baffled on what this function would actually do.  Not taking a shot at Steve, but his response to your question left me thinking he didn't know or didn't know how to describe it.  Clearly defining what the acronym stands for might make understanding it's function much more easier to comprehend.  For those of us that are in technical fields, we generally prefer to have of acronyms clearly defined anyway when making references to more than one version of them (i.e internal and external).   

[Tsani]

I didn't catch where Steve said recirculation didn't apply. Could it not have to do with the valve opening over lap? Wouldn't that allow some exhaust gases to enter the intake tract to some degree?

[rbabos]

I didn't catch where Steve said recirculation didn't apply. Could it not have to do with the valve opening over lap? Wouldn't that allow some exhaust gases to enter the intake tract to some degree?

Could be. That's why I would like to clarify what it refers to. Then we can all speak the same language.
Ron

[Tsani]

Gotcha. We riders may call it reversion when in fact the engineers call it  exhaust gas recirculation in this case. Which is why it is being offered as an adjustment in new software. I think the exhaust setup you use will play into it as well, wether or not one eliminates the cross connect in the headers. I have been told some "reversion" is a good thing, maybe they meant recirculation?

[mayor]

1. I didn't catch where Steve said recirculation didn't apply.

2. Could it not have to do with the valve opening over lap? Wouldn't that allow some exhaust gases to enter the intake tract to some degree?

1. how would it recirculate the exhaust gas?  there's no hardware between the intake and the exhaust, so the only way is reversion that I can think of.     Steve did say that the R did not stand for reversion though. 

2. yes, and I'll add it's likely from other details like exhaust system and valve timing as well.  Although I see no way the the tuning software is going to change this from happening.  I can however see that the tuning software could allow the end user to account for it, and correct for it in the data interpretion.    When we get computer contolled valve timing, then I think we could be able to control the mechanics involved that causes reversion much easier.   

[Tsani]

1. how would it recirculate the exhaust gas?  there's no hardware between the intake and the exhaust, so the only way is reversion that I can think of.   

The common piece of hardware between the two would be the combustion chambers. It would be limited and quick, but could still have an effect IMHO.

[mayor]

good point, but it's still mechanically controlled.  I can't see how the softaware can adjust a mechanical device, only account for it.   

[Tsani]

Right. It can't control it per se, but adjust for the effect.

[whittlebeast]

These sort of spikes in VE can also be caused by the code taking the MAP reading at a bad moment in the 720 degrees of crank rotation.  What the goal is to grab the estimated average MAP value the time that the intake valve is open.  If a spike in the MAP value happens when the MAP value is taken, it blows the average.  I takes some fairly high speed data logging to see this stuff.  Far faster than what we have on the CAN bus.

This is the sort of thing that rears its ugly head when modding motors.  The dead giveaway that you may have issues is spikes in the VE tables.  Hidden tables trying to tweak around idiosyncrasies of one cam will drive the next cam tuning nuts with peaks and valleys.  I tend to watch for patterns in the the pulse width on the data logs to work around this sort of thing.

AW

[Steve Cole]

I didn't catch where Steve said recirculation didn't apply. Could it not have to do with the valve opening over lap? Wouldn't that allow some exhaust gases to enter the intake tract to some degree?

We have a winner. The valve overlap allows exhaust to enter the intake tract and that is recirculation. This recirculation is controlled by the engine design components. They all play into the mix but the major player is the camshaft design. As intake pressure changes so does the amount of EGR. So the information is to let the ECM know how much of what in the cylinder is O2 and how much is EGR. Internal EGR will affect mainly low MAP reading areas with little to no affect on the high to mid MAP readings. 60 kPa is the break area where at this level and above Internal EGR is little to none based on the running pressure and piston speed.

[ultraswede]

based on the running pressure and piston speed.

Can you expand on where the EGR effect don't play a significant role in relation to piston speed?
Rpm with the standard 96/103 stroke, and rod length?

[FLTRI]

Maybe this will help:

Bob

[FLTRI]

...I tend to watch for patterns in the the pulse width on the data logs to work around this sort of thing.

AW

How do you "work around" this sort of thing? Do you have special tools to do so and what changes do you make in the calibrations? This is a learning forum so we are all ears to hear how work arounds...work.
Thanks,
Bob