The sort of thing that gets my attention

[whittlebeast]

I have been look at the data from a member that tuned his bike by using the standard TTS method.  The owner that tuned his own bike is a self proclaimed computer challenged tuner.  For those people that feel overwhelmed, yes it can be done without a dyno by following the directions.

Wow is the late drive by wire code better that the stuff that the Sporty guys a forced to put up with.  The o2 feedback algorithms are way better.  The VE tables are all Speed-Density Based as they should have been all along.  These two basic changes have transformed the tune-ability of these bikes.



Does anyone know for sure if the BPW is the actual pulse width as measured at the injector with a scope?

AW

[Jeffd]

So what do the graphs mean? ie what is good/bad what should they look like etc. Oh and as Mayor can attest to way more then just computer challenged LOL  thanks jeff

[whittlebeast]

Look at this trace compared to your trace.  Notice what the Pulse width trace looks like on the Sporty compared to yours.  I did change the scale on that part of the trace so don't let that throw you.  The scales is labeled on the left.



AW

[wurk_truk]

Wow, that DOES look quite different.  I'm glad I don't have a Sporty...  I'm retarded enuff as it is.

[Doghouse]

On the sporty graph, the rear BPW looks like the mirror image of the front?  Am I reading that right?

[whittlebeast]

On the sporty graph, the rear BPW looks like the mirror image of the front?  Am I reading that right?

They are coupled and it was a piece of poor judgment on someone at Harley.  I have been told by people on the inside that it was done to get around EPA requirements and manage to make the Sporty to feel like new customers would expect a Harley to feel.  I have not data logged the latest version of Sporty code to see if MOCO ever elected fixed it.

AW

[FLTRI]

Andy,
Why would the MOCO "fix" something they purposely did?
Maybe thy don't think it's broken?
Maybe I'm not understanding what you said?
Bob

[whittlebeast]

Andy,
Why would the MOCO "fix" something they purposely did?
Maybe thy don't think it's broken?
Maybe I'm not understanding what you said?
Bob

My question is why would they screw it up on purpose?  That makes about as much sense as making the tires not round to get the handling to feel bad.

AW

[whittlebeast]

Lets assume you are riding along at 11ms of pulse width and you are at 16 AFR.  Lets say you are in a VE cell that is set to 50.  Your first ms of commanded pulse width is wasted for opening up the injector so you will get 10 ms of spray time.

Now thru the magic of EFI tuning you increase the VE to 100.  The new pulse width will be 21ms.  The ECU knows all about the 1ms opening time so it knew that you wanted 20ms of spray time and 1ms of opening time  for a total of 21ms

Now the new AFR is 16AFR/2 or an 8AFR.  At 3ms a change of .5 ms is a huge swing in AFR given no other changes in the basic sensors.

EFI really is that simple.

AW

[FLTRI]

I have been told by people on the inside that it was done to get around EPA requirements and manage to make the Sporty to feel like new customers would expect a Harley to feel.

My question is why would they screw it up on purpose?  That makes about as much sense as making the tires not round to get the handling to feel bad.

You made a statement explaining the purpose of this tuning strategy, then ask why??
Bob

[whittlebeast]

Apparently Harley felt they got burned by having the Vrod too good and was afraid that the new EFI on the Sporty that was fully sorted would feel too much like a rice cruiser.

They also took something like 40% of the brakes out of the bike as the engineers designed it to get the photos shoot to look better.

AW

[blusmbl]

On the sporty graph, the rear BPW looks like the mirror image of the front?  Am I reading that right?

They switch opposing one another to keep the torque fluctuations from being objectionable as it switches from rich to lean and vice versa.  It is a function of every closed loop EFI system.  V8 engines do it on a bank to bank basis.  Ours just do it on a cylinder to cylinder basis.

[FLTRI]

On the sporty graph, the rear BPW looks like the mirror image of the front?  Am I reading that right?

They switch opposing one another to keep the torque fluctuations from being objectionable as it switches from rich to lean and vice versa.  It is a function of every closed loop EFI system.  V8 engines do it on a bank to bank basis.  Ours just do it on a cylinder to cylinder basis.

That is my understanding as well. 
Bob

[whittlebeast]

In theory that is correct but it is  all about the percentages and speed of implementation.  The older codes in the Big Twins do the same coupled hunting but about faster and and continues at this rate under all situations. The Sportys code gets real slow at highway speeds.

Here is a typical BT in roughly the same situation as the Sporty trace above.  This is more workable but still not as good as the DBW bike posted above.



AW

[FLTRI]

...The Sportys code gets real slow at highway speeds...

Can you explain how you have determined the Sporty code speed gets affected by vehicle speeds?

In your opinion why have the MOCO calibrators chose to deviate from their successful tuning strategies used on the BT's?

Thanks,
Bob
PS - While I haven't tuned anywhere near the number of EFI Sportys compared to BT's I have found tuning the Sporty's takes a bit longer to get low speed drivebility smooth as compared to the BT's but achievable.

[whittlebeast]

Phil got the 3D stuff working.  Way cool.  This opens an entire new world of easy data analysis and tuning EFI.

This happens to be data off my sporty.  The data looses a little detail in low resolution JPGs.

[Jeffd]

there you go I just keep getting dumber by the day lol. 

[FLTRI]

...This opens an entire new world of easy data analysis and tuning EFI.

I'm the guy for easy! Please explain the down and dirty of how it's used.
Thanks,
Bob

[whittlebeast]

CTS1950 gave directions in post 19 on getting TTS data to the glass.

The software has to be registered to do the scatter graphs and you need the beta stuff from.

http://www.efianalytics.com/MegaLogViewer/beta/ 

At this point the really cool stuff is still beta software and may be a little buggy.  That runs in the territory with beta stuff.

Andy

[wurk_truk]

there you go I just keep getting dumber by the day lol.

Ain't THAT the truth.

I'm going to go ahead and get this.  With Andy and CTS around...  I can ask a ton of dumb questions!

[FLTRI]

Andy,
What I was looking for was hopefully you would take the scatter graph (3D) you posted (Reply#40) and explain how to look at it and draw conclusions that make it east to tune.
Bob

[PC_Hater]

I don't come in here very often but those graphs are very interesting.
I spent some time wondering about why the pulse widths would be so scattered on the untuned or badly tuned bike and so tight on the well-tuned bike.

I think I have it, and feel free to correct me if I am wrong.

The original factory tune shows a fairly tight graph. You could tune the bike to make it better due to the variations in production parts.

Then you swap cams etc and download a reasonable starting map, but that is all it is because you will rarely find a starting map that matches your exact build. The poor old ECU now does its' very best to match the figures the map is telling it to match. And it can't, so the pulse widths are all over the place as the ECU tries to match something that it can't match.

Tune it, and the pulse widths are tight again and the bike runs well.

[whittlebeast]

I don't come in here very often but those graphs are very interesting.
I spent some time wondering about why the pulse widths would be so scattered on the untuned or badly tuned bike and so tight on the well-tuned bike.

I think I have it, and feel free to correct me if I am wrong.

The original factory tune shows a fairly tight graph. You could tune the bike to make it better due to the variations in production parts.

Then you swap cams etc and download a reasonable starting map, but that is all it is because you will rarely find a starting map that matches your exact build. The poor old ECU now does its' very best to match the figures the map is telling it to match. And it can't, so the pulse widths are all over the place as the ECU tries to match something that it can't match.

Tune it, and the pulse widths are tight again and the bike runs well.

You are really close with that description.  Just remember that a good VE table holds the line tight and a smooth AFR table slides the line vertical.  Poorly designed intakes and exhaust systems make this a bigger challenge.

3D scatter graphing gives you the ability to find what things drive other things like does the line get fuzzy at certain throttle positions only.  What about certain speeds.  What about when the engine temp goes above 400.  That sort of thing. 

On my other bike, there are 4 timing maps as the bike goes thru different gears.  You can find that type of EFI  BS.

AW

[whittlebeast]

Andy,
What I was looking for was hopefully you would take the scatter graph (3D) you posted (Reply#40) and explain how to look at it and draw conclusions that make it east to tune.
Bob

Bob, this is the same motor as in post 7 but now with 3d graphing.  I tried several different different things as the third dimension.  Other things I tried were throttle position, and vehicle speed.  The two that jumped out at me as having an apparent effect were spark advance and engine speed.  My guess is that the exhaust has a strange resonance that is very engine speed dependent that is making only the rear cylinder difficult to tune.  At least now we have an idea where to start looking. 

Keep in mind that Phill only released this yesterday so I am just now starting to play with this stuff.  I convinced him a few weeks ago that this could be huge so he slammed something together to play with.  It sure looks like it worked out.  He is going to take on zooming next so that you could see patterns like in the bottom left corner on the trace where the injectors are turning on and off.  The adjustments for that suff are huge in tuneability of a motor and are sadly still treated as Harley Hidden Tables.



Hope this helps

AW

[whittlebeast]

This is a little sobering.  This is the rear timing map on the right and the rear knock map on the left on the same motor.  This is the sort of thing that would make a race team poweretrain engineer stay awake at night.