HTT120 Build

[strokerjlk]

ahh hell you flip subjects too fast. 110 cly now. you are a cheap bastard

[wurk_truk]

I need to be cheap.

And...  I do not wish for 11.0 comp.  You and I view it differently.  You wish to see a HP increase with raised compression.  Remember ccp is cold CRANKING pressure... so that 200 psi at 200 rpm changes and increases wildly at 4500 rpm.  Me...  I want a tractor I can dump kerosene and it runs... well 89 crap E10.

I want a detuned el cheapo120.  my heads; 110 cylinders; 120r crank and pistons.  Little machine work to fit pistons and install.  See how it runs on a 50mm TB.  If not... find an unhappy owner of a 58 with bigger injectors.  I would run boss exhaust and save for what I KNOW I would need for a clutch.

Chicago HD lists the crank at $1124.  Maybe tri county could do better?  Pistons are 287.  110 cyls 100or so.  110 heads 250 each.  Work the heads?  Surely 500.  and that $1000 comes really close to 1250 for MVA heads.  Add knick knacky crap and its about $1000 under a kit.  Then the kit becomes the best option around it all.  So WTF, ya know.  Now... if I dish the pistons, then I can use my heads as they exist with 1.9 intakes and THAT saves quite a bit of dough.  THAT is what HQ did on their build... dished pistons with 1.9 intakes.  It's ALL about the money.

What cc is those MVA heads?  Cheapest might be to keep flattops and go bigger heads like you say.  110 heads may be an answer.

I'm not only cheap....  I'm broke.  ANd I would hope I could SELL my  4 3/8 crank during all of this to recoup a few bux.

Think of it this way...  I want to get a 120 up and running this winter, right?  Next winter, then I could upgrade just heads and pistons if I had the desire to do so.  Surely with dished and my heads... 115-120 square.  After all...  HQ advertises their kits to have 145 tq!!!  HAHA!!

Poor, broke, cheap... sure... Im NOT a bastard dammit...  I met my dad once!   

[hrdtail78]

Not sure about the TC cases., But if you go 4 or better bore on evo's you need a wider case.  Or a case that moves the lifter out.  Single cam that used a bushing in nose cone is easier to do than a cam plate with 3 bushing all in a line.  Longer pinions, different pumps......  HD has got some winners with 4 in.  (for now)

Bet you will spend an azz load on 4 custom made piston from JE.  Off the shelf from them aren't cheap.  Probably the same with CP.  I'd buy the 120R, get some dished CP pistons from Steve, put a smaller cam in it, and pull like a tractor.  Who care about above 4000rpm right?  Pull the stock engine out and re coupe at least $1500.

[Don D]

Well to dispel a few myths
92cc with the stock head is easy when using 2" and 1.61 valves.
But all things considered a set of 110 heads, new guides, and a little flow work even with the stock valves would fit the bill perfectly. Those head castings have big changes compared to the OEM not just what is clearly visible. The 110 head can be 90-92cc real easy too and that happens with a very modest mill job. ACRs come along too a good thing in my book.
On the cylinders
I am not sure you can pull it off or if you would want to. You would be breaking ground on that one. The spigots are .625 shorter than the 113 cylinders. Look at the photo in the SE catalog side by side they are. The piston will protrude unsupported quite a ways and the ring pack would even be close to becoming exposed maybe. One of the beautys of that factory barrel is the length IMHO. Get the best deal you can while we still can on the SE piston, they work well and the domes can come down if need be. 22576-10 (319 list) are +.010 pistons ad if the heads were not milled after valve work these may be real close to the CR you want.
Sounds like a fun plan. There are several cams that can fill the bill but to run 87 or 89 effectively the CCP needs to be closer to 175.
I did a similar low buck 113 for a guy in Vegas with 110 heads and he ran a Tman 625 and raved about the result. Quiet too.

[strokerjlk]

I want a detuned el cheapo120.  my heads; 110 cylinders; 120r crank and pistons.

that is all I was saying. the rest will work several diff ways
sorry for the comment. poor choice of words on my part 
actually I think you would find out real world compression would be fine. think about the 117s/124's with flat tops. doing the same thing.

[rbabos]

In my case what started this is there's a few issues I'm not happy with on my present build. Namely crank and piston slap. I've not been able to find any posts regarding piston slap with this 120r, even though the rod angle is steeper and the higher area above the wrist pin it should be a rattle trap. Can somebody explain why this setup works as well as it does.?
The game plan, since power is plenty on the 113 and not chasing max numbers here is to address the crank and pistons with the SE 120r components and use the .010 over to clean up the cyls. Since I'm using a 46mm now I would go at least to 50mm since they are cheap to get. I want this to be as painless to the wallet as possible, which brings up the HQ heads. Since the present CP's have a 7 cc dish, and the heads are , I believe to be 83-85 ish, I'm not sure if they can be made to work, or at least maybe too much work involved to be practical with flat top pistons. Not after fancy porting to breath at 7 k since set the rev limit to 5800 and have no desire to go north of that.  Thinking going back to beehives and lightening up the pressure in the valve train also.
Would like to stay at 10.5-1 or 200 ccp max to retain the ability to run 91 octane as I am now.
Present HQ 575 cams could be used and shift the torque to the left which is fine but wurk truc seems to feel my tuning grief is caused from these. Maybe harder to tune but I've gotten good results lately.
However, if the pros feel these cams are a bitch and I should look at something else, I would have to think about  dropping to 10-1 comp and choosing cams matched to suit this. If the HQ cam choice is favourable 10.5-1 is best suited for them.
End goal is to end up with a touch more hp/torque or at least equal what I have now and the engine to be reasonably quite with a decent life span , happy to run on 91 octane.
All this hinges on how well those 120r pistons stand the test of miles on them.
Ron

[autoworker]

 

[wurk_truk]

Randy emailed me and said he could do any piston we wanted.  So MY question is...  does anybody know how many cc the dish is on the HQ 120 pistons?  I played around with the Big Boyz calculators, but come up with a crazy deep dish to get 10:1 comp.  I would be willing to go 10.3:1 comp, but for me?  That would be about it.  10.3 would be cool for me with 87cc heads and there would be a bit of a bump for Ron with his smaller CCed heads.

Also, what is the rod length on the 120r cranks?

The absolute bottom dollar way for both Ron and I to do this as economical as possible would be to have Randy get us some pistons made.  Then... both of our existing heads would work.  My heads have a 1.9 intake by Don, and when Don had them...  he checked and adjusted stem protrusions, etc.  Listening to Stroker, and Don... depending what Don says, I really would like to run 575 lift cams with my heads, but HE would be the one to tell me yes or no.  The TW55s sound good or maybe some RedShift 575s.  Stroker is beating me down to make sure I am NOT planning on some early close cam for low torque.  Yes, I agree...  I want around 100 at 2500... that seems safe in rain and snow.  But from there to 4500, I really want to see a bit of action.  And both Ron and I are willing, for now, to let the top end end up where it is with our 50mm TBs, etc.

The key will be pistons, I guess.  Once someone gives up some info...  I will price it with Randy and we could do a group buy and get as many sets as folks would want.

So, for now... the direction we will probably go is have pistons made so we can run stock type CC heads.  Shoot for 10.3 to 10.5:1 comp with those heads.

I would run double rollers.  Ron will keep his Timken.  Neither of us plan on welding the crank.

Now a days... who has the best rock bottom dollar prices on this kinda stuff.  I wish Jenni was still around for sure.  Chicago HD is NOT giving that big of a break on cylinders or the crank.  Crank and cylinders from Chicago is $1124 and $395.

Even if this works out to rich for my blood... right now...  I will still go in on pistons to have that part done with.  I also guess I will send my 4 3/8 crank to Randy and have him check it out.  If everything is still good, then I could sell that for a few bucks to help out.

Eat some more popcorn Steve!!!  HAHA!!!     

PS...  I DO agree with Stroker on that the flattops for the 120r are great and would be superior to some one off custom pistons.  I'm going to talk to Don and see how much money would be involved in upping my CCs to 91-92 and keep my 1.9 intake, etc.

[Durwood]

Truk, I believe those rods are 7.667

[Don D]

7.575 IIRC, Stroker knows
Comparing those heads they are really not too different from each other flow wise. HQ uses Crane 155 springs I think. I see no advantage with the Beehives but no downside either. Either head can work at .575 lift just fine as-is but remember the flow profile was optimum on a <107". At 120 the motor will act like it has a governor at about 5K I speculate. The cam choice will not matter as the head becomes the constraint. That Andrews 55 will act like a stock cam as far as manors and torque in that motor. The Zippers cam is similar but the Andrews is quieter. If I was in the HQ realm the HQ600 would be the cam of my choice. It is an animal, a bit like a Wood 8

[strokerjlk]

7.575 rods.

think how the moco would do it.......SE 259 or even better 257.
damit truck I had a whole post about high compression and late cams before I seen you guys posted .
think about how the moco did it, with a 10.3 120r
if you want to venture away, with less compression think about  how the moco would do it.
then look at those type cams.
now don posts before me man I am slow

[Durwood]

I was too lazy to go back and look at that thread,LOL,my memory ain't what it used to be..

[strokerjlk]

I was too lazy to go back and look at that thread,LOL,my memory ain't what it used to be..

your all heart though.
that cam your running would be interesting in a 10.3  120

[Don D]

SE257 Another good one

[Durwood]

I was too lazy to go back and look at that thread,LOL,my memory ain't what it used to be..

that cam your running would be interesting in a 10.3  120

A crank and pistons is all I need......NOT

[wurk_truk]

OK... I'm wishy washy and I hope Ron is keeping up.

You guys are correct on using the SE flattops.  What swung it was this:  Ron wants a quiet engine, and dammit...  I agree.

I remember when the 106 nose dived.  On thing Ron Dickey told me is if someone like S&S had a piston kit... as opposed to smaller companies having piston kits, is that a large company would MATCH the thermal expansion rates of the piston and the cylinder.  Who would match that crap better than the MOCO?  THIS is the stuff of longevity and quietness.  I'm sold.

So... what do I do with heads?  Don?  You could PM me your ideas.  Would a set of take offs that have never been touched be better to start with than what I have?  I can send you the heads off of the 2010 bike.  You ARE right on how those are ported, etc, so I 'get' that.  The thing now is, again, about money and what do I gain.  Shoot me some pricing on a PM and I will share your thoughts with Ron.  I guess the springs will be changed to cover the higher lifts of a 257 etc.  More money.

Let me know, Don and I guess we will go from there.

[Admiral Akbar]

Instead of the 257 go for the 251...

Max

[rbabos]

OK... I'm wishy washy and I hope Ron is keeping up.

You guys are correct on using the SE flattops.  What swung it was this:  Ron wants a quiet engine, and dammit...  I agree.

I remember when the 106 nose dived.  On thing Ron Dickey told me is if someone like S&S had a piston kit... as opposed to smaller companies having piston kits, is that a large company would MATCH the thermal expansion rates of the piston and the cylinder.  Who would match that crap better than the MOCO?  THIS is the stuff of longevity and quietness.  I'm sold.

So... what do I do with heads?  Don?  You could PM me your ideas.  Would a set of take offs that have never been touched be better to start with than what I have?  I can send you the heads off of the 2010 bike.  You ARE right on how those are ported, etc, so I 'get' that.  The thing now is, again, about money and what do I gain.  Shoot me some pricing on a PM and I will share your thoughts with Ron.  I guess the springs will be changed to cover the higher lifts of a 257 etc.  More money.

Let me know, Don and I guess we will go from there.

Truc: Still here and see you came back to the original plan to use the SE crank and pistons. Not in the mood to experiment with different pistons at this stage. I hate piston slap with a passion so I keep returning to this combo since I cannot get any complaints on piston slap with the SE 120r pistons. Why is that, considering the shorter rods and crown distance from the wrist pin? Could it be the metalurgy and good expansion control? To my knowledge the pins aren't offset, which just adds to the mystery as to why they are quiet. Maybe they do slap and everbody is bullshitting me too, I don't know.

I'm also in the same boat with the heads. I seldom venture past 5k any more so the existing HQ porting should do what I need . Interestingly the present 113 will wind up with no hestiation to 6200 (new cal, forgot to drop my rev limit) and I suspect it's the same porting used for the HQ 120. It's no slouch with 140 torque not out of the question. Must be that almighty 575 cam with long exhaust durations So, where the hell can you hog out another 10cc's out of these things and still have a head left? Don mentioned dished valves which would help. I suppose it's possible to dish the SE r pistons in combonation for ccing but would rather use off the shelf with this part.
As for the crank itself, given how I ride and only use the available power for roll ons it should hold up just fine, and it seems to be holding up in abuse situations. The 20mm belt keeps me from getting too stupid on the launches.
Cost me a friggin fortune to get my stocker Hobanized and not going down that route again. There's a time and place for this but not for me this time. Some will disagree and that's fine.
Ron

[HD/Wrench]

Ron,

I am still running the stock crank and making very close to 125/125 on my 107 even with the 500 + pulls as the dyno mule . My crank started at .007 and is still there, and I beat the snot out of every time I ride.  When and if it lets go well then time for a crank upgrade.

[wurk_truk]

I'd leave the crank alone.

Awaiting word from Don.

[rbabos]

I'd leave the crank alone.

Awaiting word from Don.

Yup. Speaking of cranks, I'd be needing the 120r B for my softail. What kind of deals on them have you seen? Boy, it's amazing how many of these 120r engines are out in the field now getting beat on without a lot of complaints, which makes doing a big dumb detuned 120 a solid platform for a reliable engine having decent power from just being BIG.
Down side, will have to buy the SE comps in six packs.
Ron

[DaleW]

Would like to stay at 10.5-1 or 200 ccp max to retain the ability to run 91 octane as I am now.
Present HQ 575 cams could be used and shift the torque to the left which is fine but wurk truc seems to feel my tuning grief is caused from these. Maybe harder to tune but I've gotten good results lately.
However, if the pros feel these cams are a bitch and I should look at something else, I would have to think about  dropping to 10-1 comp and choosing cams matched to suit this. If the HQ cam choice is favourable 10.5-1 is best suited for them.

Ron
[/quote]

Hi Ron,

I've seen you mention the exhaust duration on these cams previously, but they really arent all that long ong on the duration are they? They fall pretty much between the 251 & 257, they only seem long in that the inlets are mild, also the lift is short on the exhaust.
Just curious about these cams as I'm running a 103 with F/Ts and HQ heads with 575s.

As for piston dish, I have a set of Axtell 4.125 pistons, they have a -10cc dish which appears to be around 0.060" deep.

[rbabos]

DaleW:
Intake     20/40     240    .575" lift
Exhaust  52/24     256    .530" lift
I remember looking at the cams when I got them and mistook the exhaust for the intake lobes due to the ramps.
Ron

[wurk_truk]

Theres been a rev showing up on both cranks.  That rev isn't in Chicago HDs data base.

24100004 shows up and it is $1124.96  US. Whole "A" engine is 5126 and I think if I could...  I would buy whole engine for $43-4500 and be done.  But... dont know where from.... yet...  I've started my call arounds and seeing if somewhere will sell us at 20% discount on parts.  I know there is an embargo to parts outside the US right now...  so I will do whatever you want on this buying and shipping Ron.

SE 2012 catalog lists your crank as  24100004a

[strokerjlk]

Ron
JMO
ditch the hq 575. I think it was don who said tw 60. all you need is 4 -5 cc's for 190 ccp . 200 ccp with your heads like they are?
No matter what you decide I think the hq 575 is history.
or
sell swap trade your heads for some 110 style heads then choose cams.