High Performance Questions 96 Sportster

[WhipLash96]

hello to whole community. I have a 1996 883 Sportster that I converted to a 1250. I have some SE heads that I am looking to get ported. I am curious as what the approximate flow numbers of the heads? They are 55cc SE Sportster heads. I am also looking for the cfm rating of a 40mm CV? I am curious if the 40mm with sufficiently flow enough cfm after I get the head work done?? If not, will the 44mm be sufficient??

[PC_Hater]

The 40mm CV is reckoned to work well on motors up to about 90hp. Beyond that the carb starts to limit the output. Depending on what cams you are using you could well be at the limit after your heads are flowed. It is cheapest to try it out on a dyno and see what it gives. If you can live with a bit less power at high revs so much the better!

The HD 44mm CV is obsolete now. There is a thread about it in the Dyno Tuning section. Jets, needles etc are just about impossible to get. So be sensible and don't use the 44mm CV unless you find one very cheap!

Then we get to the problem of what to use instead.
I would choose Mikuni first, then S&S, but do some research on the S&S carbs, to me they sound primitive and a pain to set up properly.

[WhipLash96]

I am pretty sure that I will be able to find parts for that 44mm, but to be sure, are you talking about the HD SE 44mm carb? I just looked in the SE carb and it is still available as far as the catalog goes.... I am going to take your advice and put my bike up on the dyno. I have this nagging feeling that I am a little lean on the main circuit. However, I am not going to adjust that until I get some afr readings from the dyno. OH, just to tell you, I am running .497/.497 lift and 256*/256* duration SE cams..

[PC_Hater]

The quote below is by mayor in the AFR and Tuning Zone thread 'how do you adjust the VE's on a carbed bike' started by mayor.

"The other issue is the CV44 needles are no longer available as an individual item.  Since they are now obsolete, there isn't a huge stock for custom sanding needles until you find one that works."

I think that means you can buy a nice new SE CV44 from HD but will have trouble buying parts for it. Check before you buy!   

[mayor]

the CV44 carb is still available (for now at least), but as PC pointed out the individual tuning components are now obsolete.  What this means is if the stock needle jet combination supplied with the carb doesn't work for your build, you will likely not be able to find a supply of new jets/needles.  This might not be a problem if you need less main jet or less pilot jet, since lower values of these are still available....but if you need larger than what they come with stock (48 pilot/220 main/L-needle), you may be out of luck.  The main isn't so much of an issue since you can always drill it larger, but the needle is a different story.

I like the cv44 carb, but I have to agree with PC that Mik42 may be a better option since the tuning components for them are still available.  The benefit that you have is the Mik will work on your stock intake manifold, where the CV44 needs a different manifold.

I am also looking for the cfm rating of a 40mm CV?  I am curious if the 40mm with sufficiently flow enough cfm after I get the head work done?? If not, will the 44mm be sufficient??

here's some posted flow numbers for all three carbs mentioned:
Carb Shoot Out 3: CV40, CV44, HSR42, HSR45 (by B Woltz)


to say whether or not a cv40 will be suffeicent really depends on how well all your components are working together.  I was able to get 83 hp with a cv40 on a 1200 (n8's/Buell T-storm heads).  I never ran the bike on a dyno after I switched to a Mik42, but I doubt it went up that much....if any.  I have seen 1200's hit low 90's with a CV40.  I have also seen 1200's hit mid 70's with a cv44...it all depends on how well your set up works together.

here's a good thread that's related (although twin cam values) that will give you a better idea of how carb choice is affected by head flow (read page 9-12):
HD TC Heads: Flow Bench Study

[WhipLash96]

Thank You very much for posting that information, that was really helpful. I am not that familiar with what is available for the motorcycle aftermarket as far as performance goes, nor do I know who is most reputable. That "G" that was discussed, is that an S&S Super G intake?

I could see that the Mikuni 45 seems to be the better flowing carb according to how the test was performed. Then this leads to another question. How by looking at dyno numbers can I determine that I need a different carb? Do I need to look at afr or just look for HP and torque drops at a certain rpm??

[mayor]

First, don't just focus on CFM flow numbers.  If you do that, you will end up putting the biggest carb that you can fit on the manifold and you will end up with lots of driveability/tuning issues. 

Second, a G is way too big for a sporty.....see the first item again    I really don't think the average sporty build needs a Mik45 either. 

The thing to keep in mind is the biggest gains from switching from a cv40 to a larger carb will likely be in areas that you may not personally hit very often.  The power output may not see much change in areas below peak torque, it's the areas after peak torque that might get carried further with less restriction through the carb.  The key is matching components, not maximising the components values.  The question really is what are you trying to accomplish? do you want a good running everyday bike, or are you building a racer (or dyno superstar)?  I personally wouldn't build the two the same. 

one additional thing to note.  There's two basic types of carbs that we are discussing: constant velocity (CV) and mechanical (Mik, S&S).  You may get the exact same performance out of a CV that you would a MIk, but the Mik has less lag in response. Even if the power was exactly the same between a CV and a Mik, the Mik feels stronger because you have instantaneous results when you twist the wick.  The problem comes in when you over twist the wick for what the engine can take at that particular time. The CV is easier to tune, and is much more forgiving of the operators over wick twisting tendencies...plus they are more friendly to environmental changes. 

[Hillside Motorcycle]

hello to whole community. I have a 1996 883 Sportster that I converted to a 1250. I have some SE heads that I am looking to get ported. I am curious as what the approximate flow numbers of the heads? They are 55cc SE Sportster heads. I am also looking for the cfm rating of a 40mm CV? I am curious if the 40mm with sufficiently flow enough cfm after I get the head work done?? If not, will the 44mm be sufficient??

I lean in the direction of a 42 Mik, or an S&S E, with a Thunderjet.
Scott

[WhipLash96]

I think that I may need to give my engine specs so you can better understand my set up. I am sorry if it sounded like I was going to rush out and get the MIK45 right away, not my intention. The following is my engine set up.

SE 55cc Sportster Heads
SE 10.5:1 Flat Top Pistons
SE Perfect Fit Push Rods
SE .497/.497 Lift and 256*/256* Duration Cams
SE Selectable Ignition
40mm CV Carb with  a46 pilot and a 185 main
D&M Custom Cycles Spike Series Air Cleaner and intake

First off I understand that "bigger" is not always better, that is why I was asking about flow numbers. I want to be able to have the best set up. I am looking into doing some performance head work on the SE  heads. I am looking at doing some port matching intake/head, 5 angle valve job, having the chambers measured for trueness to advertised chamber size etc. any suggestions?

[mayor]

I'm not trying to be coy, but there really isn't a specific answer.  Read the tc head flow study I posted the whole way through.  One thing a bigger carb does is allows for more airflow potential of the heads, this was eveident in all heads tested that had more than stock flow rates.  The more the heads flowed, the more all carbs would allow flow to go through the carb.  There was no point (at least with the heads tested) where the flow reached a maximum cfm through the cv40, but the amount of flow potential loss in percentage increased as the head flow potential increased. 

If I was running that build, I would choose the CV44 (but...I have a box full of jets and needles...and two other bikes running a CV44    ).   If money is a little tighter, I would choose the Mik42 (since you can use the stock manifold).  Do I think that either of these carbs will produce higher HP than a CV40 on that build?  yes.  How much?  dunno    Do I think that you will notice a difference below 4,500....no.  The Mik will likely feel stronger though, but it wil be because the carb is mechanical and not CV. 

[WhipLash96]

Ok, How about this, do you want to sell any of the needles and jets?  Actually, I am pretty serious about that??? OK, what about boring the CV 40mm? is that really a possibility and do you recommend it?

BTW, thank you for being straight to the point, that is much appreciated. I will look at that information on the head flow numbers.. I thought it was real interesting for what I did read.

[mayor]

Ok, How about this, do you want to sell any of the needles and jets?  Actually, I am pretty serious about that???

no thanks   afterall, carb tuning components are becoming increasingly obsolete.

OK, what about boring the CV 40mm? is that really a possibility and do you recommend it?

yes, there is folks doing that and no, I don't think it's worth it.  The cost vs. gains makes this less than an attractive option than just buying a Mik42. 

I will look at that information on the head flow numbers.. I thought it was real interesting for what I did read.

yea, I'm not sure the author has a clue what he's talking about...but it does give some interesting data to think about.   

[WhipLash96]

Can you direct me in the direction to where I can start looking for parts for the 44mm? If Harley sells that carb, don't they support it with parts available through MoCo?

[mayor]

I'm not sure, but HD may still sell an all in one kit that has all the needles and jets.

here's a chart with HD CV carb part numbers (the jets fit both CV40 and CV44, the needles are exclusive to the CV44):

I have since found out that the caliper used to measure the needles may not be accurate...so take the values with a grain of salt. 

[Hillside Motorcycle]

Ok, How about this, do you want to sell any of the needles and jets?  Actually, I am pretty serious about that??? OK, what about boring the CV 40mm? is that really a possibility and do you recommend it?

BTW, thank you for being straight to the point, that is much appreciated. I will look at that information on the head flow numbers.. I thought it was real interesting for what I did read.

CV carb mods/boring?? www.woodcarbs.com
Scott

[jimlibo]

"I have some SE heads that I am looking to get ported. I am curious as what the approximate flow numbers of the heads".

I don't have the flow rates in front of me now but do remember that those SE  heads actually flow a little LESS air than stock late model XB pattern and 2004 up XL heads on the intake side and alot less on the exhaust. They'll still be  better than your stock 96 XL heads though. A 42 Mik or S&S E would be far better carb choices with those heads and that cam. The Mik would favor mid and top power at the expense of some bottom torque and the S&S kind of the opposite of that.

BTW I'd recommend getting those big block chevy beehive springs out of those SE XL heads way big seat and nose pressure and they wallow all over the place in the spring pad area for starters.

[WhipLash96]

"I have some SE heads that I am looking to get ported. I am curious as what the approximate flow numbers of the heads".

I don't have the flow rates in front of me now but do remember that those SE  heads actually flow a little LESS air than stock late model XB pattern and 2004 up XL heads on the intake side and alot less on the exhaust. They'll still be  better than your stock 96 XL heads though. A 42 Mik or S&S E would be far better carb choices with those heads and that cam. The Mik would favor mid and top power at the expense of some bottom torque and the S&S kind of the opposite of that.

BTW I'd recommend getting those big block chevy beehive springs out of those SE XL heads way big seat and nose pressure and they wallow all over the place in the spring pad area for starters.

I have never had anything of mine on the flow bench or ported. Should I open the exhaust valve up or just the port going to the pipe?? But just to be clear, are you suggesting that I have a bad set up???  Most people I have spoken to about my head really like them. I have talked to two head porters that post on this site, or a t least one and they like the heads.... Just saying.

[jimlibo]

then run them. 'nuff said.

[WhipLash96]

Ok guys and gals, here are some dyno sheets that I just had done. I am not overly impressed with it and am willing to listen to suggestions on what it is that I have to do to fix the problem.. What is the problem???

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[WhipLash96]

Here is another..

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[WhipLash96]

Another

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[WhipLash96]

another

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[WhipLash96]

and the last...

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[WhipLash96]

then run them. 'nuff said.

I always like to improve on things...

To anyone who would like to see, I posted my initial dyno runs in that section.. Check it out...

[rigidthumper]

What is the combo? Displacement, year, mods, etc. Tuner used? Carb/injected?  Hard to say anything other than you are a little rich about 1 second in, and way too lean from about 4 1/2 seconds out to the end.

[hotroadking]

Your exhaust may be the problem
As well.

Grab that carb. Rebel 40.5 I sent you

Woods has jets and needs for 44
I have an intake for one

However it will probably 44 cost you more down low where you ride

Tq. Not Hp is the focus


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[WhipLash96]

Your exhaust may be the problem
As well.

Grab that carb. Rebel 40.5 I sent you

Woods has jets and needs for 44
I have an intake for one

However it will probably 44 cost you more down low where you ride

Tq. Not Hp is the focus


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

check out dyno runs then we will talk about that carb. bothe here and the other place...

[hotroadking]

No prob. What pipes are on it?


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[WhipLash96]

check out high performance question in the sportster section for engine particulars.......

[WhipLash96]

my usual set up....

[PC_Hater]

I have had a look at the dyno runs you posted.
What pipes are you using?
You are running lean at high rpm.
The 40mm CV is not holding you back, something else is. All those whizzo fast parts and you have only a bit more power than a standard 1200 has.
When you have problems getting more than 85hp we'll let you fit a bigger carb, until then, make it work properly with what you have.
I assume the dyno isn't grossly under reading?

[mayor]

check out dyno runs then we will talk about that carb. bothe here and the other place...

I had to remove your dyno thread due to not meeting our SAE correction rules (the dyno posting rules is posted in the dyno section) .  I merged your dyno posts onto this thread so you can still get the feedback that you are looking for.

[PC_Hater]

If it helps, the standard main jet on my 1200S is a 200.
On a normal 1200 it was 190.

[mayor]

my usual set up....

the pipes is killing the performance.  It looks to me like you are running some sort of funky bent 2" drag pipes.  Drag pipes are not synonymous with performance pipes, in fact quite the opposite.  Add a 2" diameter to that mix on a small vtwin engine and you have a recipe for poor performance.  If you want more power, get rid of those pipes.  The CV40 is not limiting the HP or tq in your current set up (like PC stated, ~85 hp is not our of question for a cv40).  Sorry, no change in carb can improve the performance of those pipes.  The CV40 is more than capable of delivering more performance than what you are now seeing.  Here's a dyno run that was 15/15 better than your using a CV40 carb:
1200 Sportster w/thunderstorms and N8's 82.9HP/81TQ


btw, Jim was right about the heads.  The newer XB castings (current '04 and up oem 1200) out flow/ out perform the previous SE castings (that's if you have the dual plug castings).   I think the SE castings aren't that bad though, just the XB are quite good.  The stock '03 and earlier 1200 heads are not that good. 

[WhipLash96]

Yeah, IU am hearing a common theme that I am running lean way high. I had thought this and that is why I put it on the dyno. I had an AM part on it that was causing this. My main is only 185 and even without the AM part I am running lean. So I am going to order a 190-200 main jets and I am going to play around with it. I have spoken to a couple different friends and they had said that there is a lot left in this engine. If I can make that kind of power when I am that lean. I should be pretty decent for power when I get it dialed....

HotRoadKing, do you like the D&D 2-1 for Sportsters? I think that they had some for Sporty's??? I am more willing now to go the 2-1 rout then ever before.

[WhipLash96]

I wanted to post my AFR charts from a dyno pull but the file is too big. if anyone is interested in seeing it, please pm with an email and i will send it.

[WhipLash96]

my usual set up....

the pipes is killing the performance.  It looks to me like you are running some sort of funky bent 2" drag pipes.  Drag pipes are not synonymous with performance pipes, in fact quite the opposite.  Add a 2" diameter to that mix on a small vtwin engine and you have a recipe for poor performance.  If you want more power, get rid of those pipes.  The CV40 is not limiting the HP or tq in your current set up (like PC stated, ~85 hp is not our of question for a cv40).  Sorry, no change in carb can improve the performance of those pipes.  The CV40 is more than capable of delivering more performance than what you are now seeing.  Here's a dyno run that was 15/15 better than your using a CV40 carb:
1200 Sportster w/thunderstorms and N8's 82.9HP/81TQ


btw, Jim was right about the heads.  The newer XB castings (current '04 and up oem 1200) out flow/ out perform the previous SE castings (that's if you have the dual plug castings).   I think the SE castings aren't that bad though, just the XB are quite good.  The stock '03 and earlier 1200 heads are not that good.

The pipes that I have on are called Radii Vipers. They are  2" stepped to 2.125" I have Big City Thunder baffles in. I think that I am going to put the baffles that I had in it originally which were the perforated can opener type, but put fiberglass over them to see if that helps with exhaust velocity and torque. Thoughts?

[WhipLash96]

What is also really neat is that I just bought a N65 Sportster needle for my carb rejet. As of now I have my needle shimmed. The N65 will take away the need for it to be shimmed. I am kind of stoked for it to arrive..

[mayor]

The pipes that I have on are called Radii Vipers. They are  2" stepped to 2.125" I have Big City Thunder baffles in. I think that I am going to put the baffles that I had in it originally which were the perforated can opener type, but put fiberglass over them to see if that helps with exhaust velocity and torque. Thoughts?

those pipes are too big at the port, so a baffle at the end isn't likely going to fix that. 

[hotroadking]

Mayor thank you for confirming the pipes are not the best for power, been saying that to the whipster for a  while LOL

Look great, suck on performance.

D&D makes great pipes but I bet a set of Python dual slip ons or stock headers with khrome werks HP+ slip ons would smoke
the pipes you have now for a lot less green

BTW you are not that lean according to the afr chart you sent me in fact
unless I'm reading it wrong or this printout is weird, you start out way rich
and then go super rich in the mid range, then it leans out as it should as you go to WOT

work on WOT (Main tuning next)

Heck if I read it right your bike is so rich it's going to be subject to obamas new 5% wealth tax.

PDF AFR Chart Run 1

You need to reduce the pilot jet, and unshim that needle and make another run BEFORE you start
changing anything else to see if it helps.

Once you get the carb dialed in then you can play with timing

If you are going to change the pipe, do it, then start playing with the carb  as it will change things again..

[mayor]

Mayor thank you for confirming the pipes are not the best for power, been saying that to the whipster for a  while LOL

Look great, suck on performance.

   finding a good pipe while working in the parameters of a '03 and earlier sporty frame is tough.  Most major pipe companies quit supporting those bikes a few years ago (because of the frame change). Cycle Shack M-pipes is tough to be as an alternative to drag pipes (but stay w/ 1 3/4" head pipes).   Stock head pipes and slip-ons work well too, but the crossover makes carb adjustments a little more tricky. 

BTW you are not that lean according to the afr chart you sent me in fact
unless I'm reading it wrong or this printout is weird, you start out way rich
and then go super rich in the mid range, then it leans out as it should as you go to WOT

work on WOT (Main tuning next)

I agree.  based on what you just posted, the bike is fairly rich to 4,300 and doesn't actually go too lean for power production until about 4,700.  If you try to richen up the afr in the 4,700 and up areas....the earlier rpm's will be drowned with fuel.  The pipes is the reason that the early rpm's are so rich.  A better baffle might help, but those big head pipes are a problem (kills exhaust velocity). 

if you are going to run the n65c needle, reduce the pilot as HRK suggests or you will likely be blubbery rich in the low throttle settings. 

[WhipLash96]

Mayor thank you for confirming the pipes are not the best for power, been saying that to the whipster for a  while LOL

Look great, suck on performance.

   finding a good pipe while working in the parameters of a '03 and earlier sporty frame is tough.  Most major pipe companies quit supporting those bikes a few years ago (because of the frame change). Cycle Shack M-pipes is tough to be as an alternative to drag pipes (but stay w/ 1 3/4" head pipes).   Stock head pipes and slip-ons work well too, but the crossover makes carb adjustments a little more tricky. 

BTW you are not that lean according to the afr chart you sent me in fact
unless I'm reading it wrong or this printout is weird, you start out way rich
and then go super rich in the mid range, then it leans out as it should as you go to WOT

work on WOT (Main tuning next)

I agree.  based on what you just posted, the bike is fairly rich to 4,300 and doesn't actually go too lean for power production until about 4,700.  If you try to richen up the afr in the 4,700 and up areas....the earlier rpm's will be drowned with fuel.  The pipes is the reason that the early rpm's are so rich.  A better baffle might help, but those big head pipes are a problem (kills exhaust velocity). 

if you are going to run the n65c needle, reduce the pilot as HRK suggests or you will likely be blubbery rich in the low throttle settings.

What if I were to reposition the baffle that I have now?? Place it closer to the head?

[WhipLash96]

The pipes that I have on are called Radii Vipers. They are  2" stepped to 2.125" I have Big City Thunder baffles in. I think that I am going to put the baffles that I had in it originally which were the perforated can opener type, but put fiberglass over them to see if that helps with exhaust velocity and torque. Thoughts?

those pipes are too big at the port, so a baffle at the end isn't likely going to fix that.

not really sure where you got that I wanted to port the exhaust? I asked about it, was just curious..

[hotroadking]

JMO leave the build itself alone for now, you need to fix the tune and you might find
you are happy with what you have.  Pipes are fine they just are not going to get you
the best performance because of what they are design wise.

Just trying to get you the best power for the least bucks
while it goes lean up top it's not that lean..  Leaner than it should be
the n65 might fix that with the existing main jet, so just do a few
things at a time.

Make the pilot jet one size smaller and drop in the n65 or
pull the shim off the needle for even lower cost.

then see if your dyno buddy will roll it up and see how it runs.
if you pick up power great but fix the fuel curve first.

You don't need a bigger carb or ported intake or new cams
you just need to get the stuff running correctly for what you have

After that if you still have the bug for more power (Insert Tim Tool Man Taylor Grunt here)
then work on the things that will make you good useable (2500 to 5000RPM TQ) and the
bike will be a blast to ride.

Then you can open up the wallet for pipes, cams, head work, intake tuning etc.

See if you can find a cheap set of take off headers (stock) and some slip ons
for little bucks in the swap meet section, on CL or at some indy shop around the
area.  Then you can see the difference the exhaust is making and if it's something
you want to continue to pursue..

Right now just tune the carb...

[WhipLash96]

JMO leave the build itself alone for now, you need to fix the tune and you might find
you are happy with what you have.  Pipes are fine they just are not going to get you
the best performance because of what they are design wise.

Just trying to get you the best power for the least bucks
while it goes lean up top it's not that lean..  Leaner than it should be
the n65 might fix that with the existing main jet, so just do a few
things at a time.

Make the pilot jet one size smaller and drop in the n65 or
pull the shim off the needle for even lower cost.

then see if your dyno buddy will roll it up and see how it runs.
if you pick up power great but fix the fuel curve first.

You don't need a bigger carb or ported intake or new cams
you just need to get the stuff running correctly for what you have

After that if you still have the bug for more power (Insert Tim Tool Man Taylor Grunt here)
then work on the things that will make you good useable (2500 to 5000RPM TQ) and the
bike will be a blast to ride.

Then you can open up the wallet for pipes, cams, head work, intake tuning etc.

See if you can find a cheap set of take off headers (stock) and some slip ons
for little bucks in the swap meet section, on CL or at some indy shop around the
area.  Then you can see the difference the exhaust is making and if it's something
you want to continue to pursue..

Right now just tune the carb...

Now that I went and put the bike on the dyno, I am much more able to make decisions. I have no intention now of touching my heads or cams at this point. The only way that I will is if after I tune the carb and I still can't get to where it is that I think that I should be. From there it will be my pipes. I have my next set picked out already, and they are not a 2-1 or a stock set.    If pipes don't do it, I will most likely be happy and producing real respectable power anyways so then it is a judgement call if I really need to go further. Please remember that my bike on occasion does go for 200+ mile rides in a day, so i do need to stay reliable as well.

[mayor]

I agree with HRK.  One further thing to add, a dyno sheet only shows what is happening at wide open throttle.  It really isn't a sure fire way to determine how the bike will run at other throttle positions. My point is, don't get too wrapped up in what the sheets say.   

those pipes are too big at the port, so a baffle at the end isn't likely going to fix that.

not really sure where you got that I wanted to port the exhaust? I asked about it, was just curious..

I wasn't referring to ported exhaust anything.     ok, let me be more clear....those head pipes you are running now are too large up near where the pipe attaches to the head (exhaust port).  Even being stepped, they are too large of pipe for your engine.

The only way that I will is if after I tune the carb and I still can't get to where it is that I think that I should be. From there it will be my pipes. I have my next set picked out already, and they are not a 2-1 or a stock set.  If pipes don't do it, I will most likely be happy and producing real respectable power anyways so then it is a judgement call if I really need to go further.

before you drop more coin into something equally cool looking as what you have now, you may want to ask our opinions on whether they are a power improvement over what you have now.


I'm curious, what numbers would you be happy with?  I mean, what do you consider repectable for a 1250 XL?

[hotroadking]

I agree A Dyno is just a tool to understand what's going on and the experienced minds here can help

I felt you were talking about exhaust size to the head when you said ports

I believe in a fuller healthy tq curve and this bike just doesn't show that yet. Probably will with minimal cost and will become a hoot to ride and hard to keep front wheel down


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[WhipLash96]

I agree with HRK.  One further thing to add, a dyno sheet only shows what is happening at wide open throttle.  It really isn't a sure fire way to determine how the bike will run at other throttle positions. My point is, don't get too wrapped up in what the sheets say.   

those pipes are too big at the port, so a baffle at the end isn't likely going to fix that.

not really sure where you got that I wanted to port the exhaust? I asked about it, was just curious..

I wasn't referring to ported exhaust anything.     ok, let me be more clear....those head pipes you are running now are too large up near where the pipe attaches to the head (exhaust port).  Even being stepped, they are too large of pipe for your engine.

The only way that I will is if after I tune the carb and I still can't get to where it is that I think that I should be. From there it will be my pipes. I have my next set picked out already, and they are not a 2-1 or a stock set.  If pipes don't do it, I will most likely be happy and producing real respectable power anyways so then it is a judgement call if I really need to go further.

before you drop more coin into something equally cool looking as what you have now, you may want to ask our opinions on whether they are a power improvement over what you have now.


I'm curious, what numbers would you be happy with?  I mean, what do you consider repectable for a 1250 XL?

About 75/75 is what I think is real respectable for this engine. Of course I would like more if I can do it really really cheep, like free...

[hotroadking]

Nothing worth having was ever gained free.

[WhipLash96]

Yeah, I know.... I have been looking at pipes all over the place and I just haven't been able to find anything that I LOVE other than what it is that I have on. So I went to a custom pipe builder and had a long conversation. I think that I may have found the answer...

[mayor]

Yeah, I know.... I have been looking at pipes all over the place and I just haven't been able to find anything that I LOVE other than what it is that I have on. So I went to a custom pipe builder and had a long conversation. I think that I may have found the answer...

if they are going to build you a set of pipes for show.....save your money.....ask them about how they handle reversion and if they believe in pulse wave tuning, if they give you a good answer....you might be ok. 

[WhipLash96]

Yeah, I know.... I have been looking at pipes all over the place and I just haven't been able to find anything that I LOVE other than what it is that I have on. So I went to a custom pipe builder and had a long conversation. I think that I may have found the answer...

if they are going to build you a set of pipes for show.....save your money.....ask them about how they handle reversion and if they believe in pulse wave tuning, if they give you a good answer....you might be ok.

I think that i found a way around all issues that i am faced with. i would explain here but it would take a lot of time.. lets just say that I found a way to keep the look that i have now, but have also found a way to add performance added by a better system...

[mayor]

ok, but keep in mind there are no magic beans.  If you are keeping the look that you have now.....you won't find a giant beanstock at the end. 

[WhipLash96]

ok, but keep in mind there are no magic beans.  If you are keeping the look that you have now.....you won't find a giant beanstock at the end.

With a custom pipe you can do what ever it is that you want.. Not sure that I understand your magic bean analogy though???

So are you a pro wrench??

[mayor]

With a custom pipe you can do what ever it is that you want..  

that's my point....doing what ever you want may be the same or worse than you have now.  There's more to tuning exhaust than shear flow.  There's pulse waves, tune the pulse waves and you will end up with better results.   

So are you a pro wrench??

no, just a fictional internet politician.   

[WhipLash96]

that's my point....doing what ever you want may be the same or worse than you have now.  There's more to tuning exhaust than shear flow.  There's pulse waves, tune the pulse waves and you will end up with better results.
[/quote]

I will be talking to my Indy today and getting some better idea's on what it is that I can or cannot do with this exhaust. This isn't set in stone but it is an avenue that I want to explore a lot more. A lot of this is going to come down to money. Is this going to cost me more than what a set of catalog pipes will? I guess I find out...

[hotroadking]

Custom made pipes for the bike are
not going to be inexpensive, it takes
time testing and extensive knowledge
of how a pipe flows. 

Couple of guys here have home built pipes.

[WhipLash96]

Custom made pipes for the bike are
not going to be inexpensive, it takes
time testing and extensive knowledge
of how a pipe flows. 

Couple of guys here have home built pipes.

Really?? Home built pipes is pretty much what I have now. Doesn't look like there was much science involved in those. To a point, I think you are making this sound way more complicated that it needs to be or than what it really is. My bike isn't a drag bike in any way shape or form, I don't need to have the best of the best like some people we know...

[WhipLash96]

I got my carb parts in today.  It is time to get this beast running well.....

[hotroadking]

I don't need to have the best of the best like some people we know...

All the more reason to get it right the first time, cost's less LOL

[WhipLash96]

I will be taking the carb apart to replace the needle with a N65C. I am anxious to see what it does.

HRK, Have a Great Time at Biketoberfest!!!

[hotroadking]

Found some pipes for you there




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[WhipLash96]

Hey there HRK. Listen, I owe you an apology. I now understand why you and Major are saying that I am to heavy on the pilot. I did a little research and I found that I am on my pilot until 1/4 throttle. I have heard this before, but for some reason, and I have no idea why, but I was thinking that I am off the pilot until just after off idle. I found that it can last up until about 2400 rpm. It makes sense to me now and I will change that pilot jet down.

Thank You HRK and Major for the information that you have given. I am a rookie at this stuff in this much detail. I only want to learn, not to offend anyone. I ask a lot of questions but not always the right ones. Aging, thanks and I will keep you posted..

[hotroadking]

Well we coulda explained that a little better,
got used to just offering a solution (possible)
than going into the details.

Its a great learning curve, and didn't you tear that
carb down and find some more information you should post here?

[mayor]

I did a little research and I found that I am on my pilot until 1/4 throttle. I have heard this before, but for some reason, and I have no idea why, but I was thinking that I am off the pilot until just after off idle. I found that it can last up until about 2400 rpm. It makes sense to me now and I will change that pilot jet down.

Based on the AFR meter testing I've done, the pilot jet affects a wider range than just the first 1/4 throttle and the needle comes into play aooner than at 1/4 throttle. There's actually an overlap where the needle and pilot are both factoring in on what the afr will be.  The n65c needle was designed in 1988 for a cv carb that didn't have a accelerator pump/nozzle.  That needle makes the transition from the pilot to the needle area richer, so that's why you will likley need a smaller pilot than the 46 you are running now.

here's a good read that discusses the real life affects of the various circuits on a CV carb (it's of a cv44, but the transitions are the same):
http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,26210.msg267218.html#msg267218

[hotroadking]

Mayor he found an unshimed N65, vs the shimmed needle that he thought he had
and I think he said it had a modified accel pump but ICRS so Whipster will have to chime in and give us details,  Remember him saying the hole fit a 3/32 bit, which converted is 6/64 if my basic poor math skills are correct so the hole is fine (supposed to be 7/64)

Yep with the rich needle he needs a smaller pilot and to adjust the screw to
get the air mix right, then work on the main.

I wonder what Needle jet tube is in this bike as well as what spring is
on the slide. 

Makes tuning fun when ya have no idea whats in the darn thing to begin with LOL

[WhipLash96]

Mayor he found an unshimed N65, vs the shimmed needle that he thought he had
and I think he said it had a modified accel pump but ICRS so Whipster will have to chime in and give us details,  Remember him saying the hole fit a 3/32 bit, which converted is 6/64 if my basic poor math skills are correct so the hole is fine (supposed to be 7/64)

Yep with the rich needle he needs a smaller pilot and to adjust the screw to
get the air mix right, then work on the main.

I wonder what Needle jet tube is in this bike as well as what spring is
on the slide. 

You are right, I did find an N65c needle with no shim. Not sure where you got that I had a modified accel pump though? As far as I know there has been no other modifications to the carb. I bought a new slide spring, a 45 pilot, an N65 needle thinking that I needed one, and I bought main jets, sizes 190-200. I am set to go. I just got the carb cleaned up tonight along with my garage.  The carb was especially dirty.

Makes tuning fun when ya have no idea whats in the darn thing to begin with LOL

[hotroadking]

and expensive when you buy stuff twice

[WhipLash96]

and expensive when you buy stuff twice

You know what, I did have a rebuild kit put put in the carb right away because the first indy I took the bike to put one in. I have no idea what it is that he put in it though. The reason why I had it in is because I was getting a real dead spot when I would roll on the throttle. After the kit went in, the dead spot went away..

[WhipLash96]

Today I should be able to get you guys an update on how my scoot runs.. Haven't been feeking well lately. talk at you all later..

[WhipLash96]

I have a dyno appointment scheduled in two weeks. I put the new main jet in and I think that I am really close to what it is that I need. My bike feels so much better than what it did. I am looking forward to what the dyno has to say..

[Caper]

I have a dyno appointment scheduled in two weeks. I put the new main jet in and I think that I am really close to what it is that I need. My bike feels so much better than what it did. I am looking forward to what the dyno has to say..

Be interesting to see what the AFR charts say too!!

[14Frisco]

I have a dyno appointment scheduled in two weeks.

Assuming you are putting it on a Dynojet dyno, bring a USB memory stick with you and ask for the run files when you are done.
Then go to http://www.dynojet.com/downloads/software.aspx and download and install WinPEP that allows you to view and manipulate those run files.

[WhipLash96]

I have a dyno appointment scheduled in two weeks. I put the new main jet in and I think that I am really close to what it is that I need. My bike feels so much better than what it did. I am looking forward to what the dyno has to say..

Be interesting to see what the AFR charts say too!!

You know that I will post them too!! How have you been my friend? Actually I think that I have some small issues to work in the mean time. I am going to be taking out that 195 and [utting in the 190 and resetting the idle mix. I am going to leave the 46 pilot in and go from there.

[WhipLash96]

Well, I got new pipes in here this week and they are basically installed. I changed the main jet down from a 195 down to a 190 and I am going to run it there for a little bit to see how WhipLash responds to that. I asked my indy if I should change my pilot right away as well and he just does not want that pilot touched. So I left it..

[WhipLash96]

Well, I went to finish installing my pipes and I noticed that I do not have the serrated flange nuts. I ordered 8 of them from FastenAll, and in stainless steel as well. 

[WhipLash96]

I got my pipes installed today and I took it out for a ride. I installed the 190 main and left the 46 pilot in. I must say that I do think that I got the jet combination down based on how the bike responded. I took her up to the higher speeds and I liked how everything felt. Now all I need to do is get WhipLash back onto the dyno and see how those afr's are. I do think that we are close though.

Thanks to HRK and Mayor for all of the input as you will be surprised at how much I did listen. I will keep you all updated as the changes take place...

[WhipLash96]

Well I have had another dyno run performed and this time with a tune. I am making 70/70. I also am about 70/30 that I will be making a cam change as this is a little weak for my taste. There are a couple of things that I want to try before I make the final decision.. 

[WhipLash96]

Well, I have come to the conclusion that I am not going to move forward with anymore engine work as I am satisfied with the results of my last dyno run and tune. the decision came down to basically money, I am not will to spend over a 1k for 10/10 gains. Thank You Mayor, HRK, Prodrag for your help, it was all really valuable..

[hotroadking]

Glad you got it where you like it...

[mayor]

yea, at some point we all have to decide if the gains are worth the cost. 

what, we aren't going to get to see the new pipes?     I promise, I won't bust on your choice too much. 

[WhipLash96]

OK, I will take it.....

[attachment removed after 60 days by system]

[mayor]

Basani? 

[WhipLash96]

Yep 

[mayor]

1 3/4" head pipes or 2"?    looks like 2".  if that's the case, you didn't listen to anything I was telling you.   

[WhipLash96]

it is an 1 3/4"

[mayor]

you did good then    are he two pipes joined in anyway? 

[WhipLash96]

They are kind of joined at the bracket because they use the same bolt to fasten to the frame, but they are individual.