Need some insight from experienced riders

[2011FXDC]

I have been riding for about 15 years off and on and have been through two MSF courses. First was several years ago and then again last year to support the wife during her first class. Our (police) drivers training already taught me about looking where you want to go, which is huge. I always try to improve my riding and work on taking hard bends outside/inside/outside. I don't ride very aggressively and really focus on being smooth but I do push it sometimes. I consider myself a decent rider but something happened the other day that caught me off guard.

On a back country road, I was taking a hard 90 degree right hander and started scraping the peg which is nothing new. Then it felt like the peg kind of dug in and the rear tire lifted a little. It squirmed a bit and fortunately I didn't panic and pulled right through it. So what did I do wrong, take the bend too fast ? Maybe I pushed the limits of my Dyna too far..?  I recently changed my pegs back from chrome Harley pegs to the stock rubber ones. The chrome pegs were worn pretty good from scraping and I'm wondering if the rubber ones just dig in more instead of scraping.

Thanks for any advice or ideas.. I'm always ready to learn.     

[Grumpy : (]

The peg might have caught a seam in the street, something to watch for.  Good you rode through it.

You did probably lean a bit further than needed and that caused the problem.  I do the same thing sometimes, but floorboards are way more forgiving.  They slide or fold up rather than catch.

[NETacomaFatboy]

you may not have done anything wrong.  It happens when one scrapes.   I would shoot to scrape at slightly faster corners and not tight/slow corners...

[Evo160K]

Do you think the bolt/nut holding the peg on should be loosened a bit to allow the peg to lift up like the platforms?

[bigal51]

If your smooth, Ya don't need to be fast!!

[Dennis The Menace]

Do you think the bolt/nut holding the peg on should be loosened a bit to allow the peg to lift up like the platforms?

If it doesnt lift up fairly easily, its too tight, IMO.

Leaning is not all thats involved in a turn.  Steering the bike can have a big impact too, and it just takes a lot of miles to know when to apply the right balance.  If you are scraping the pegs in a tight 90 degree, need a bit less lean and a bit more steering.

If you took the advanced riders course, you probably worked on both.  Remember the exercise to use the lock to lock turning of the bike, and keeping it more upright.  How tight was that turn?  Bet is was much tighter than the one you took.  But, of course, that was a low speed turn.  But, it was there to reinforce using the steering capability of the bike, as well as just leaning, to make a tight turn.

I do a 90 pretty tight when I pull into my housing area.  Its at about 20-25 MPH, and I try to lean as far without touching the board, and making it as right angle as I can.  I also use a lot of steering with the lean.  Its good practice, and I can make that turn in about a 12 foot box, without scraping, at 20 MPH.

So, just keep riding and learning the bike, which is practice!!!  Fun!

[Coyote]

It may help you to read this in it's entirety but this page is particularly useful, IMO.

http://genjac.com/BoomerBiker/Gravity.htm

A few years ago, I thought it was cool to be able to lean the bike and scrape the boards.... I thought that was pretty skilled riding. Since then, I've found that I almost never scrape the boards (at least not violently) and yet I can make even tighter high speed turns now than I ever did back then. I'm convinced that taking time to study the physics of a motorcycle has helped me in that regard. And the physics of a heavy Harley is not the same as that of a sport bike.

Weight shifting away from the turn and heavy counter steering are much more effective IMO.

I was riding a few months back with two guys on a very twisty road off the coast. The guy leading was on a BMW R1200RT, I was middle on my '11 Road Glide and the last guy was on a '11 Ultra. They guy on the BMW expected to lose us both but he never could lose me. The guy on the ultra was left behind, way behind. When we connected at the next turn, the guy on the ultra couldn't figure out how I kept up. He said he was scraping on every curve. I never scraped once.

He was leaning the bike with his weight. I was staying upright and counter steering the bike which allowed me to be fast over and fast up from the curves.

I'm not expert and there are plenty of guys that can out ride me I'm sure. JMO

[2011FXDC]

Thank you all ! I really appreciate the advice.

[2011FXDC]

Do you think the bolt/nut holding the peg on should be loosened a bit to allow the peg to lift up like the platforms?

There are pretty tight and don't fold easily. I'm going to loosen them up a bit today.

[HogBag]

If you put a good set of fork springs on the bike with a 12 weight oil the pegs won't touch on most corners.

[Ken R]

One of the techniques I learned as an advanced MSF RiderCoach was to shift my weight to the low side of the motorcycle.  Also to lean forward, face near the low side handle bar.   This allows the motorcycle to stay just a little more upright while carving a curve. The explanation our instructors gave was that if a rider comes into a curve too hot, the weight shift and forward lean can be used if you find yourself going a little too fast in a curve.   He also said that it's more effective on a lighter motorcycle or crotch rocket than a Harley Ultra Limited.  (makes sense). 

I don't have the confidence that some riders have on twisty roads.  I tend to slow more than necessary before curve entry and then accelerate through and out of the curve as I see the end.  I'll often loose 50 yards in a long curve to a really good rider on a similar motor; but can usually make it up before the next curve. 

I'd rather be smoother without the accelerations/decelerations; but just can't bring myself to come into a curve hot.

The consequences of failure are catastrophic. 

Ken

[Maddog]

an i thought i was the only one who dragged pegs on a Dyna   

[kik]

Do you think the bolt/nut holding the peg on should be loosened a bit to allow the peg to lift up like the platforms?

There are pretty tight and don't fold easily. I'm going to loosen them up a bit today.

an i thought i was the only one who dragged pegs on a Dyna   

My Question to both of you guys is if you wanted to drag knee, why didn't you buy bike that were meant to be driventhat way? My suggestion is to relocate or raise the pegs so they don't drag.
Sorry this is a sore spot for me. I've seen too many of my friends go down because they were screwing around scrapping pegs. It's cool until just as FM found out, the peg catches. He got lucky andwas able to maintain, orhters not so lucky. Most of the time if that peg catches hard and lifts the rear tire, the tire bounces back down causing the bike to high side and flip. Ok done with my little rant.

[Breeze]

  I recently changed my pegs back from chrome Harley pegs to the stock rubber ones. The chrome pegs were worn pretty good from scraping and I'm wondering if the rubber ones just dig in more instead of scraping.



My stock rubber Dyna pegs are about 1" shorter than my chrome pegs. I can easily drag the chrome pegs, the stock ones are harder to scrape. My muffler hits on the right before my stock peg will  scrape.  Look for scrapes on the R. underside of your mufflers.

[PoorUB]

He was leaning the bike with his weight. I was staying upright and counter steering the bike which allowed me to be fast over and fast up from the curves.

I'm not expert and there are plenty of guys that can out ride me I'm sure. JMO

I was following a friend through the Big Horn mountains last year and we came up behind two slow cars. The first one pulled over and let us pass, the second held his ground. My buddy, riding lead, finally had enough and pulled out on a short straight right before a corner, I followed. My buddy was grinding his foot boards all the way through the corner and I never touched, even though I entered the corner probably 10 MPH faster than him. I was braking hard, slamming the bike into the corner, riding two up, (he was by himself). He could not believe I was gaining on him hard in the corner while he was doing all he could do.

I know there are riders that can make me look sick, but there are plenty I can out ride !

I had a rider saddle up the same time as us going up Beartooth pass once. He was riding a CVO RK. He asked if he could go first as he, and I quote, "ride the corners pretty hard" and he was concerned about us holding him back. I told him he could, but I doubt I would hold him up. About 3-4 corners up the pass my wife is going  who is this guy?! One or two more corners later I blew by him, riding two up on an Ultra, packed for a week, and never saw him again once he faded from my rear view mirriors.

Coyote, I would like to ride with you sometime, maybe we will get out your way and hook up sometime. You could probably smoke me, either that or we are both talking smack!

[Twolane]

It would be nice if that genjac site was readable. Unfortunately, the text stretches entirely across the screen and you can't resize the text to make it readable without scrolling. It would be impossible to read on a phone or an ipad.

[Pilgrim]

One of the techniques I learned as an advanced MSF RiderCoach was to shift my weight to the low side of the motorcycle.  Also to lean forward, face near the low side handle bar.   This allows the motorcycle to stay just a little more upright while carving a curve. The explanation our instructors gave was that if a rider comes into a curve too hot, the weight shift and forward lean can be used if you find yourself going a little too fast in a curve.   He also said that it's more effective on a lighter motorcycle or crotch rocket than a Harley Ultra Limited.  (makes sense). 

Ken

We called that "kissing the mirror" (ktm) when I learned it.  The technique does not call for hanging off the low side, like some guys do, but just getting a good weight shift in and forward. Properly done, you can get by with very little lean. 

In an airplane, if you want to go up (bear with me, pilots; I'm simplifying, here) you pull back on the stick.  You will feel resistance to the pull because the airplane wants to fly straight an level and you are overriding that inclination, but as long as you want to go up you keep pressure on the stick unless you adjust the "trim."  That adjustment moves the control surfaces into a climb position and takes the pressure out.  You can let go and the airplane will continue to climb. When you want to go straight and level, you adjust the trim for that, etc.

The same thing, more or less, works for turning a bike.  The bike wants to run straight and true (we hope) and when you use the bars to turn you are forcing it to do something it doesn't want to, so it fights back.  You wind up with continuous steering corrections, so that the smooth curve you want to cut turns into a series of scalloped mini-turns.

So, instead of forcing the bike to keep doing something it doesn't want to do, initiate the turn with some countersteer and then adjust your weight to "trim out" the pressure you have to hold on the handlebars to stay in the turn -- you'll be amazed the first time you do it.  Set up the turn, pay attention to what the bars are telling you, and then shift your weight down and forward (ktm). You don't have to move your butt on the seat; just ktm. On a bike with new tires and a properly set up alignment you can take a lot of curves completely hands-off. 

I think that a lot of the "bagger-weave" some guys complain about is actually due to this forcing the bike down into a turn and holding it. In an airplane it's called pilot-induced oscillation as the airplane goes up and down, trying to find an attitude appropriate for the trim it has dialed in with the pilot fighting every move. (No, we don't need a big argument over whether bagger weave really exists; of course it does.)

Once you've learned the technique the initial countersteer will go so smoothly into the weight shift that you won't even notice it as a separate action any more.

This is not high-speed riding; it is high performance riding, working with the bike to let it do what it naturally wants to do.

Pilgrim

 

[jerry34208]

Good post Pilgrim.

[Ardy]

Good post Pilgrim.

I inadvertently did just what you explained while staying on the ass of my son-in-law on his Dyna riding the twisties in the Black Hills. I ride a Geezer Glide Ultra.

I am like the OP, out for twenty odd years but drooling at the thought of getting back on a bike. My daughter graduated and I'm on my fifth bike and loving every minute of it. Guys at work ask me if I'm a biker now and I tell them that I have golf clubs but that doesn't make me a golfer, but I dearly love the game as well as I love to ride. To many times I think we just sit back and try to take those curves like we are riding straight (and level). Took me a while to figure it all back out and KTM is a very good explanation.

[YFOPOS1]

All good replies  to OP  , but it also could  be a simple "slope of the road"
Usually roads are high in the center and sloped to the sides for obvious reasons, but sometimes you get where they didn't construct it that way,.

[cheetah]

It would be nice if that genjac site was readable. Unfortunately, the text stretches entirely across the screen and you can't resize the text to make it readable without scrolling. It would be impossible to read on a phone or an ipad.

In order to get the text small enough to read without having to scroll left/ right simply hold,down the ctrl key while scrolling down the mouse scroll button. this will increase or decrease the text size. or you can (as on laptop) use the ctrl key and up/dn keys to do the same.
C

[2011FXDC]

All good replies  to OP  , but it also could  be a simple "slope of the road"
Usually roads are high in the center and sloped to the sides for obvious reasons, but sometimes you get where they didn't construct it that way,.

Funny you say that. I talked to one of our motor guys about it and he said the same thing.

[2011FXDC]

Thank you everyone for the discussion. I appreciate the help.

[Nooter99]

One of the techniques I learned as an advanced MSF RiderCoach was to shift my weight to the low side of the motorcycle.  Also to lean forward, face near the low side handle bar.   This allows the motorcycle to stay just a little more upright while carving a curve. The explanation our instructors gave was that if a rider comes into a curve too hot, the weight shift and forward lean can be used if you find yourself going a little too fast in a curve.   He also said that it's more effective on a lighter motorcycle or crotch rocket than a Harley Ultra Limited.  (makes sense). 

Ken

We called that "kissing the mirror" (ktm) when I learned it.  The technique does not call for hanging off the low side, like some guys do, but just getting a good weight shift in and forward. Properly done, you can get by with very little lean. 

In an airplane, if you want to go up (bear with me, pilots; I'm simplifying, here) you pull back on the stick.  You will feel resistance to the pull because the airplane wants to fly straight an level and you are overriding that inclination, but as long as you want to go up you keep pressure on the stick unless you adjust the "trim."  That adjustment moves the control surfaces into a climb position and takes the pressure out.  You can let go and the airplane will continue to climb. When you want to go straight and level, you adjust the trim for that, etc.

The same thing, more or less, works for turning a bike.  The bike wants to run straight and true (we hope) and when you use the bars to turn you are forcing it to do something it doesn't want to, so it fights back.  You wind up with continuous steering corrections, so that the smooth curve you want to cut turns into a series of scalloped mini-turns.

So, instead of forcing the bike to keep doing something it doesn't want to do, initiate the turn with some countersteer and then adjust your weight to "trim out" the pressure you have to hold on the handlebars to stay in the turn -- you'll be amazed the first time you do it.  Set up the turn, pay attention to what the bars are telling you, and then shift your weight down and forward (ktm). You don't have to move your butt on the seat; just ktm. On a bike with new tires and a properly set up alignment you can take a lot of curves completely hands-off. 

I think that a lot of the "bagger-weave" some guys complain about is actually due to this forcing the bike down into a turn and holding it. In an airplane it's called pilot-induced oscillation as the airplane goes up and down, trying to find an attitude appropriate for the trim it has dialed in with the pilot fighting every move. (No, we don't need a big argument over whether bagger weave really exists; of course it does.)

Once you've learned the technique the initial countersteer will go so smoothly into the weight shift that you won't even notice it as a separate action any more.

This is not high-speed riding; it is high performance riding, working with the bike to let it do what it naturally wants to do.

Pilgrim

How do you shift your weight DOWN? Not being a smartass at all, just rying to understand so I can improve. Also, what is KTM? I suck at acronyms.

[glens]

It would be nice if that genjac site was readable. Unfortunately, the text stretches entirely across the screen and you can't resize the text to make it readable without scrolling. It would be impossible to read on a phone or an ipad.

In order to get the text small enough to read without having to scroll left/ right simply hold,down the ctrl key while scrolling down the mouse scroll button. this will increase or decrease the text size. or you can (as on laptop) use the ctrl key and up/dn keys to do the same.
C

Or you could do what I did and edit the HTML so it's not so obnoxious.  Haven't read it yet, though...  All I did was comment out some of the format directives and added a base href tag which makes it so the images &c. will be called from the original site even though you're "browsing" the file from your computer.  Change the file type to "HTML", I couldn't attach it as such.

[attachment removed after 60 days by system]

[glens]

I just glanced through it and they're making it way too complicated.  If you want to initiate a turn (above normal parking lot speed) just push the handlebar on the side of the direction you want to go.  Wasn't enough?  Push more.  Quit pushing and the bike will start to go straight again.  Push the other side and the bike will go past vertical to turn that direction.  Pick your ass up off the seat and you can slalom the front tire through the spaces between the center line up to near 50 mph real easy (on an Ultra Classic) with just alternate handlebar pushes/pulls.

Once you point this out to people they forget all about pushing on the side of the tank with their knee, or "leaning", etc.  All of those efforts require force on the handlebars and guess what?  They've been countersteering without even knowing it, just wasting time and effort to do so.  Once they grasp what's really going on their riding, control, and safety improve dramatically.

[Ken R]

In my MSF classes, I tell non-believers that they've been countersteering without knowing it.   They're not completely convinced. 

I then tell them that when they lean their bodies to one side or the other (supposedly to initiate a lean), they're gripping and pullingl the high-side handlebar grip or they'll fall off the motor. 

Guess what . . . .pulling the high side bar is the same as pushing the low side bar.  Countersteering!

The response is usually "hmmmmmm"

Ken

[Coyote]

I rarely push the low side bar anymore. I stay upright and pull the high side bar. No effort and smooth as silk. 

[Ken R]

I rarely push the low side bar anymore. I stay upright and pull the high side bar. No effort and smooth as silk. 

It'll work.  It's the way I take lazy curves, just for a change.

But you might have trouble doing this exercise with the pull-pull-pull method. 

30 MPH Cone Weave (Motor School)

Or this one:
Dennis demonstrating the 30mph coneweave exercise

(an exercise required for police motorcycle operator's certification)

Ken

[Coyote]

Well actually I was more talking about taking a 30mph curve at 50 or 60 running mountain roads. Slow speed riding is a different animal. I love slower speed riding as well and I think most riders woefully neglect it.

[Ken R]

Well actually I was more talking about taking a 30mph curve at 50 or 60 running mountain roads. Slow speed riding is a different animal. I love slower speed riding as well and I think most riders woefully neglect it.

Understand.
On mountain road curve speed, I'm still comfortable at 15 mph over the posted speed.  Not so comfortable at much over that, especially if I don't know what's around the bend.  Maybe in my younger days, but not now.

In this exercise at 30 mph, the cones whizz by pretty fast.  It's really hard to do at 35 mph.  It's all fun and good skills training. 


Ken

[Admiral Akbar]

How do you shift your weight DOWN? Not being a smartass at all, just rying to understand so I can improve.

You crap in your drawers. 
Max

[Nooter99]

How do you shift your weight DOWN? Not being a smartass at all, just rying to understand so I can improve.

You crap in your drawers. 
Max

Hmmmm, I don't think my wife is gonna understand my explanation. "Honey, I'm just doing what the guys on HTT told me to do"

Actually, I've always been a "pull the high side" kinda guy. Just the way my brain works I guess. Is there really a difference between pulling and/or pushing??

[Beave]

I learned the "kiss the mirror" technique as COW, chin over wrist.  Basically these moves place you forward and down (towards the pavement).  They are sport bike riding techniques that work to some degree on all motorcycles, and allow higher cornering speeds without an increase in lean angle.  Pulling the high side or pushing the low side both have the same effect, but pushing on the low side is generally considered more precise.  What you do not want to do is fight the low side push with a high side push.  A good reading reference is Sport Riding Techniques by Nick Ienatsch.  This is all part of the MSF Advanced Riding Course, an excellent way to improve our cornering skills.

[texaskatfish]

All very good stuff Gents!

.............then there's always the ONE pesky curve where the sign says 30mph and MEANS it!   

[truck]

Which mirror do you kiss, the one on the inside of the curve or the outside? I'm guessing the outside.

[Admiral Akbar]

I learned the "kiss the mirror" technique as COW, chin over wrist.

Works better when you don't have any mirrors.. 

Which mirror do you kiss, the one on the inside of the curve or the outside? I'm guessing the outside.

Inside.

Max

[04 SE Deuce]

  Beave's post is right on IMO.  I pull the outside bar when I'm just relaxing/cruising,  using countersteer only is easiest but uses more lean angle.  When the pace picks up I move to the inside,  ktm, cow, whatever.  When getting it all add in sliding butt over,  knee out.  Might sound funny but I "hang off" the Deuce more than on a sport bike because of available lean angle.  Rick

[Admiral Akbar]

Might sound funny but I "hang off" the Deuce more than on a sport bike because of available lean angle.

I do the same on my Bobber..

Max

[glens]

But you might have trouble doing this exercise with the pull-pull-pull method. 

30 MPH Cone Weave (Motor School)

Heck, he went to the inside of the cones.  I'd thought he'd go around them 

[Ken R]

But you might have trouble doing this exercise with the pull-pull-pull method. 

30 MPH Cone Weave (Motor School)

Heck, he went to the inside of the cones.  I'd thought he'd go around them 

HA!  That's what everyone says . . . . until they try it.   

[Beave]

Those tall cones increase the difficulty a lot.  I was practicing the "Lollipops" at last years MSF IRETS in Kentucky.  They had one set up with the tall cone weave on 10 foot centers and a 20 foot circle on the end.  I must have knocked over every single cone, then dropped the RK trying to make the circle!  They told me later they set it up too tight just to see if anyone could complete it.  Any one going to Lexington KY this May?

[Ken R]

Those tall cones increase the difficulty a lot.  I was practicing the "Lollipops" at last years MSF IRETS in Kentucky.  They had one set up with the tall cone weave on 10 foot centers and a 20 foot circle on the end.  I must have knocked over every single cone, then dropped the RK trying to make the circle!  They told me later they set it up too tight just to see if anyone could complete it.  Any one going to Lexington KY this May?

I went to Lexington last year.  Was disappointed that the range was so slippery.  I'm a cone-rider, but couldn't handle my 'limited on the slippery surface.  A little training bike was difficult enough.  The breakouts were so-so (in my opinion).  They are so caught up in their "adult learning" processes that it was annoying at times.  I learned a lot in 2 or 3 of the breakouts, but not so much in the rest. 

If they had the seminar in a new place, I'd go.  But I can't see riding the same roads 1,400 miles each way again this year for a repeat performance. 

Visit the Motorcycle Skills forum on Delphi. 

http://forums.delphiforums.com/RIDESKILLFULLY/start

[Evo160K]

Actually, I've always been a "pull the high side" kinda guy. Just the way my brain works I guess. Is there really a difference between pulling and/or pushing??

Nooter99,
Thinking out loud here, if a guy pushes some times and pull other times, what's he going to do in an emergency.  Let's say he needs to brake and swerve.  Seems it's going to be a challenge at best to have the body moving forward during braking and trying to pull back on a bar at the same time.  Compound the task with a reflex that hasn't been trained to react one way or the other.  What's going to happen?  Isn't panic the absence of knowledge/training? 

[Coyote]

Actually, I've always been a "pull the high side" kinda guy. Just the way my brain works I guess. Is there really a difference between pulling and/or pushing??

Nooter99,
Thinking out loud here, if a guy pushes some times and pull other times, what's he going to do in an emergency.  Let's say he needs to brake and swerve.  Seems it's going to be a challenge at best to have the body moving forward during braking and trying to pull back on a bar at the same time.  Compound the task with a reflex that hasn't been trained to react one way or the other.  What's going to happen?  Isn't panic the absence of knowledge/training? 

Braking and swerving at the same time is a bad idea. Do one, then do the other.

[Admiral Akbar]

if a guy pushes some times and pull other times,

This is a bunch of BS.. You use both arms to control the bike.. It's not your pickup and you don't have one arm on the arm rest..  You also use both handle bars to position your upper body.. 

Max

[Evo160K]

"Braking and swerving at the same time is a bad idea. Do one, then do the other."


Coyote,
I agree totally.  Given the choice it's better.  Point is it can happen in an emergency, and  it's better to be pushing on a bar while braking rather than pulling on a bar.  I suspect that's why the MSF teaches pushing rather than pulling. 

[Pilgrim]

I just glanced through it and they're making it way too complicated.  If you want to initiate a turn (above normal parking lot speed) just push the handlebar on the side of the direction you want to go.  Wasn't enough?  Push more. Quit pushing and the bike will start to go straight again.  Push the other side and the bike will go past vertical to turn that direction.  Pick your ass up off the seat and you can slalom the front tire through the spaces between the center line up to near 50 mph real easy (on an Ultra Classic) with just alternate handlebar pushes/pulls.

Once you point this out to people they forget all about pushing on the side of the tank with their knee, or "leaning", etc.  All of those efforts require force on the handlebars and guess what?  They've been countersteering without even knowing it, just wasting time and effort to do so.  Once they grasp what's really going on their riding, control, and safety improve dramatically.

Preeecisely!  And you don't want the bike to go straight in a turn - at least, I don't.

But KTM and it will hold its line through the curve, hands-off if you want to try it that way, or with but fingertips on the bars at worst. And at slower speeds you'll get more turn with less lean if you do it.  It's not hard, just not what we typically learn to do at first.

Now, dead-slow cone work is another matter entirely.  And that's not something I've even done or wished I could do in 42 years of riding.

Pilgrim