Need some insight from experienced riders

[glens]

I just glanced through it and they're making it way too complicated.  If you want to initiate a turn (above normal parking lot speed) just push the handlebar on the side of the direction you want to go.  Wasn't enough?  Push more.  Quit pushing and the bike will start to go straight again.  Push the other side and the bike will go past vertical to turn that direction.  Pick your ass up off the seat and you can slalom the front tire through the spaces between the center line up to near 50 mph real easy (on an Ultra Classic) with just alternate handlebar pushes/pulls.

Once you point this out to people they forget all about pushing on the side of the tank with their knee, or "leaning", etc.  All of those efforts require force on the handlebars and guess what?  They've been countersteering without even knowing it, just wasting time and effort to do so.  Once they grasp what's really going on their riding, control, and safety improve dramatically.

[Ken R]

In my MSF classes, I tell non-believers that they've been countersteering without knowing it.   They're not completely convinced. 

I then tell them that when they lean their bodies to one side or the other (supposedly to initiate a lean), they're gripping and pullingl the high-side handlebar grip or they'll fall off the motor. 

Guess what . . . .pulling the high side bar is the same as pushing the low side bar.  Countersteering!

The response is usually "hmmmmmm"

Ken

[Coyote]

I rarely push the low side bar anymore. I stay upright and pull the high side bar. No effort and smooth as silk. 

[Ken R]

I rarely push the low side bar anymore. I stay upright and pull the high side bar. No effort and smooth as silk. 

It'll work.  It's the way I take lazy curves, just for a change.

But you might have trouble doing this exercise with the pull-pull-pull method. 

30 MPH Cone Weave (Motor School)

Or this one:
Dennis demonstrating the 30mph coneweave exercise

(an exercise required for police motorcycle operator's certification)

Ken

[Coyote]

Well actually I was more talking about taking a 30mph curve at 50 or 60 running mountain roads. Slow speed riding is a different animal. I love slower speed riding as well and I think most riders woefully neglect it.

[Ken R]

Well actually I was more talking about taking a 30mph curve at 50 or 60 running mountain roads. Slow speed riding is a different animal. I love slower speed riding as well and I think most riders woefully neglect it.

Understand.
On mountain road curve speed, I'm still comfortable at 15 mph over the posted speed.  Not so comfortable at much over that, especially if I don't know what's around the bend.  Maybe in my younger days, but not now.

In this exercise at 30 mph, the cones whizz by pretty fast.  It's really hard to do at 35 mph.  It's all fun and good skills training. 


Ken

[Admiral Akbar]

How do you shift your weight DOWN? Not being a smartass at all, just rying to understand so I can improve.

You crap in your drawers. 
Max

[Nooter99]

How do you shift your weight DOWN? Not being a smartass at all, just rying to understand so I can improve.

You crap in your drawers. 
Max

Hmmmm, I don't think my wife is gonna understand my explanation. "Honey, I'm just doing what the guys on HTT told me to do"

Actually, I've always been a "pull the high side" kinda guy. Just the way my brain works I guess. Is there really a difference between pulling and/or pushing??

[Beave]

I learned the "kiss the mirror" technique as COW, chin over wrist.  Basically these moves place you forward and down (towards the pavement).  They are sport bike riding techniques that work to some degree on all motorcycles, and allow higher cornering speeds without an increase in lean angle.  Pulling the high side or pushing the low side both have the same effect, but pushing on the low side is generally considered more precise.  What you do not want to do is fight the low side push with a high side push.  A good reading reference is Sport Riding Techniques by Nick Ienatsch.  This is all part of the MSF Advanced Riding Course, an excellent way to improve our cornering skills.

[texaskatfish]

All very good stuff Gents!

.............then there's always the ONE pesky curve where the sign says 30mph and MEANS it!   

[truck]

Which mirror do you kiss, the one on the inside of the curve or the outside? I'm guessing the outside.

[Admiral Akbar]

I learned the "kiss the mirror" technique as COW, chin over wrist.

Works better when you don't have any mirrors.. 

Which mirror do you kiss, the one on the inside of the curve or the outside? I'm guessing the outside.

Inside.

Max

[04 SE Deuce]

  Beave's post is right on IMO.  I pull the outside bar when I'm just relaxing/cruising,  using countersteer only is easiest but uses more lean angle.  When the pace picks up I move to the inside,  ktm, cow, whatever.  When getting it all add in sliding butt over,  knee out.  Might sound funny but I "hang off" the Deuce more than on a sport bike because of available lean angle.  Rick

[Admiral Akbar]

Might sound funny but I "hang off" the Deuce more than on a sport bike because of available lean angle.

I do the same on my Bobber..

Max

[glens]

But you might have trouble doing this exercise with the pull-pull-pull method. 

30 MPH Cone Weave (Motor School)

Heck, he went to the inside of the cones.  I'd thought he'd go around them 

[Ken R]

But you might have trouble doing this exercise with the pull-pull-pull method. 

30 MPH Cone Weave (Motor School)

Heck, he went to the inside of the cones.  I'd thought he'd go around them 

HA!  That's what everyone says . . . . until they try it.   

[Beave]

Those tall cones increase the difficulty a lot.  I was practicing the "Lollipops" at last years MSF IRETS in Kentucky.  They had one set up with the tall cone weave on 10 foot centers and a 20 foot circle on the end.  I must have knocked over every single cone, then dropped the RK trying to make the circle!  They told me later they set it up too tight just to see if anyone could complete it.  Any one going to Lexington KY this May?

[Ken R]

Those tall cones increase the difficulty a lot.  I was practicing the "Lollipops" at last years MSF IRETS in Kentucky.  They had one set up with the tall cone weave on 10 foot centers and a 20 foot circle on the end.  I must have knocked over every single cone, then dropped the RK trying to make the circle!  They told me later they set it up too tight just to see if anyone could complete it.  Any one going to Lexington KY this May?

I went to Lexington last year.  Was disappointed that the range was so slippery.  I'm a cone-rider, but couldn't handle my 'limited on the slippery surface.  A little training bike was difficult enough.  The breakouts were so-so (in my opinion).  They are so caught up in their "adult learning" processes that it was annoying at times.  I learned a lot in 2 or 3 of the breakouts, but not so much in the rest. 

If they had the seminar in a new place, I'd go.  But I can't see riding the same roads 1,400 miles each way again this year for a repeat performance. 

Visit the Motorcycle Skills forum on Delphi. 

http://forums.delphiforums.com/RIDESKILLFULLY/start

[Evo160K]

Actually, I've always been a "pull the high side" kinda guy. Just the way my brain works I guess. Is there really a difference between pulling and/or pushing??

Nooter99,
Thinking out loud here, if a guy pushes some times and pull other times, what's he going to do in an emergency.  Let's say he needs to brake and swerve.  Seems it's going to be a challenge at best to have the body moving forward during braking and trying to pull back on a bar at the same time.  Compound the task with a reflex that hasn't been trained to react one way or the other.  What's going to happen?  Isn't panic the absence of knowledge/training? 

[Coyote]

Actually, I've always been a "pull the high side" kinda guy. Just the way my brain works I guess. Is there really a difference between pulling and/or pushing??

Nooter99,
Thinking out loud here, if a guy pushes some times and pull other times, what's he going to do in an emergency.  Let's say he needs to brake and swerve.  Seems it's going to be a challenge at best to have the body moving forward during braking and trying to pull back on a bar at the same time.  Compound the task with a reflex that hasn't been trained to react one way or the other.  What's going to happen?  Isn't panic the absence of knowledge/training? 

Braking and swerving at the same time is a bad idea. Do one, then do the other.

[Admiral Akbar]

if a guy pushes some times and pull other times,

This is a bunch of BS.. You use both arms to control the bike.. It's not your pickup and you don't have one arm on the arm rest..  You also use both handle bars to position your upper body.. 

Max

[Evo160K]

"Braking and swerving at the same time is a bad idea. Do one, then do the other."


Coyote,
I agree totally.  Given the choice it's better.  Point is it can happen in an emergency, and  it's better to be pushing on a bar while braking rather than pulling on a bar.  I suspect that's why the MSF teaches pushing rather than pulling. 

[Pilgrim]

I just glanced through it and they're making it way too complicated.  If you want to initiate a turn (above normal parking lot speed) just push the handlebar on the side of the direction you want to go.  Wasn't enough?  Push more. Quit pushing and the bike will start to go straight again.  Push the other side and the bike will go past vertical to turn that direction.  Pick your ass up off the seat and you can slalom the front tire through the spaces between the center line up to near 50 mph real easy (on an Ultra Classic) with just alternate handlebar pushes/pulls.

Once you point this out to people they forget all about pushing on the side of the tank with their knee, or "leaning", etc.  All of those efforts require force on the handlebars and guess what?  They've been countersteering without even knowing it, just wasting time and effort to do so.  Once they grasp what's really going on their riding, control, and safety improve dramatically.

Preeecisely!  And you don't want the bike to go straight in a turn - at least, I don't.

But KTM and it will hold its line through the curve, hands-off if you want to try it that way, or with but fingertips on the bars at worst. And at slower speeds you'll get more turn with less lean if you do it.  It's not hard, just not what we typically learn to do at first.

Now, dead-slow cone work is another matter entirely.  And that's not something I've even done or wished I could do in 42 years of riding.

Pilgrim