FUDGE THE KOOLAIDE- Time for some Whiskey Tuning

[wurk_truk]

I have talked Ron Babos in trying to tune the HTT 120 with a twin Scan + kit and simply see how that works out for him. (He purchased the TS on my say so...  I cannot imagine any other tuning device that would do as nice a job...  open loop... as a Twin Scan, right?)  I have decided to do the same type of tuning right along side of him, so that we can help each other learn a bit.

So...............  maybe somebody could help us out a bit.  We both would like to look at some stuff that has worked for others in the past, namely the fueling strategies.  What AFRs seem to work best and where.

I have an 09 FLH/DBW bike.  120R; 58mm SE-TB. 5.3 injectors, Boss exhaust; engine is totally stock.

Ron has an 07 Softail with the HTT 120 in it.  I will let Ron give all of the build details.

Both of us won't be ready for a couple weeks, and then at that time, a few members have PMed me and we would all like to learn together on how best to use a Twin Scan + kit to its fullest capabilities.

Myself..  I wish to try to develop the best home made open loop tune I possibly can.  My new bungs should help with that.  Then go back and finish off the closed loop tune to the best I can do there, too. (I imagine I will do idle and WOT with the TS+kit for that tune also.)

Then..................  check MPG and do a few tugs to see how this all works out.

Should be fun.

(something in my primary is 'giving up the ghost' and have to fix THAT before any tuning, HAHA!!!)

[Ohio HD]

I'll be watching this John, will be interesting to learn as you guys go through this.

Brian

[wurk_truk]

Hopefully, that is the IDEA Brian... we can all learn together.   I would also like to get Mayor at least watching this thread, as I have been trying to talk him into a Twin Scan, too.

And... this thread is NOT about closed or open loop either.  This thread is simply how one should tune with a Twin Scan to achieve a nice OPEN LOOP tune.

TIA to all who reply.

[mayor]

I'll be watching.    I really like the idea of a TS tune, but having a hard time personally justifying the expense.  I'm kinda cheap.   

[HV]

Im cheap too but its their $$$ so Ill watch    Should be interesting for sure ..hope this thread stays Civil and does not get in to a    event 

[rigidthumper]

Bookmarked!  Very curious as to process/progress. 'member, I'm mostly ignorant with a streak of dummy, so pics are useful, man!

[Durwood]

 

[BVHOG]

The key to tuning with the twinscan on the road has some of the same issues as the v-tune, mostly hitting all the proper cells without killing yourself trying, not to mention breaking every speed limit sign in sight and not wearing out your brakes.
Other than that knowing what data to disregard is key and for someone to tell you what data that is without seeing what is going on real time is virtually impossible. I have tuned many bikes on the road with the twinscan before I had the dyno and ran many of those bikes on the dyno afterwards, the road tune was always a bit on the rich side of target when re-checked on the dyno.  I tuned 4 trikes this year with it on the highway and the results were more than acceptable.
All this being said the twinscan is a great tool both on and off the dyno and the best dollar value for investment of any tool I have ever purchased.
As for afr targets that will be determined on an individual basis but basic guidelines would be 14-1 cruise up to 50-60- KPA and then blended down to 12-8 to 13-0 for 100kpa  with higher rpm areas a bit lower at the same kpa's
OK, so what kind of whiskey? are we talking Bourbon or that watered down Canadian stuff?(we have to have something to argue about)

[FLTRSE3CLONE]

I have talked Ron Babos in trying to tune the HTT 120 with a twin Scan + kit and simply see how that works out for him. (He purchased the TS on my say so...  I cannot imagine any other tuning device that would do as nice a job...  open loop... as a Twin Scan, right?)  I have decided to do the same type of tuning right along side of him, so that we can help each other learn a bit.

So...............  maybe somebody could help us out a bit.  We both would like to look at some stuff that has worked for others in the past, namely the fueling strategies.  What AFRs seem to work best and where.

I have an 09 FLH/DBW bike.  120R; 58mm SE-TB. 5.3 injectors, Boss exhaust; engine is totally stock.

Ron has an 07 Softail with the HTT 120 in it.  I will let Ron give all of the build details.

Both of us won't be ready for a couple weeks, and then at that time, a few members have PMed me and we would all like to learn together on how best to use a Twin Scan + kit to its fullest capabilities.

Myself..  I wish to try to develop the best home made open loop tune I possibly can.  My new bungs should help with that.  Then go back and finish off the closed loop tune to the best I can do there, too. (I imagine I will do idle and WOT with the TS+kit for that tune also.)

Then..................  check MPG and do a few tugs to see how this all works out.

Should be fun.

(something in my primary is 'giving up the ghost' and have to fix THAT before any tuning, HAHA!!!)

Did you have your bike on the dyno initially after break in? If so is there a link to your sheet?

[wurk_truk]

Nope no dyno before or after break-in.  I have a copy of TTS 120R cal and v-tuned the bike...  I'm not done with the v-tuning because there were a few little changes along the way..  When I was down in FLA, I went to eat lunch with Doc, and for shits and giggles we did a couple WOT tugs.  To do the tugs, we set the fuel on the 100% columns using a sniffer.

118hp 124tq fifth gear with a rain soaked AC.   Couldn't be happier with those numbers.  THe TTS is dialing in nicely, it seems.  It's time constraints mostly.   THIS thread being about a nice TS tune, will also sharpen my skills to use the TS when doing the TTS tune, also.

I ride with a laptop, and save my TS data runs there instead of the dongle.  I am sort of experienced in gathering data...  haha!!!  and I know that I like to cut down on the acceptable data and combine multiple runs before generating the tune, Bob.  I imagine this will be some serious work, but thats OK.

[7hogs]

 

[HV]

I like to tune with Jim Bean 

[jty]

Very interesting to know how the VE's differ when measured with widebands.   

[rbabos]

Very interesting to know how the VE's differ when measured with widebands. 

That and what the actual afrs I'm tuned to. Right now it's only a guess.
Ron

[jty]

Very interesting to know how the VE's differ when measured with widebands. 

That and what the actual afrs I'm tuned to. Right now it's only a guess.
Ron

So what's the plan? Replace O2 bungs in the Supertrapp with widebands, set the whole AFR map to 13.5 and see what comes out? At least that is something  I have planned to do (in a dyno)

[wurk_truk]

OK.   I just got off of the phone with someone that sells Twin Scan + kits.

For any member of HTT that wishes to purchase a Twin Scan plus kit, here is a REAL good deal on owning one yourself.

I can sell anyone in the lower 48 states either a Twin Scan 2+kit with a Wego 3d ( for 'regular' bikes with a 1850 plug) OR..  a Twin Scan 3+ kits with a Wego 3d (for can bus bikes), either one will be $499 plus shipping.  I paid $525 in 2009 and the cheapest I have seen one lately is $599, so this is really a nice offer.  For folks that don't know...  one has to PLEASE remember that a Twin Scan will NOT program an ECM, it is an aide to tell one WHAT to program into their bike.  One will still need a TTS or similar to actually finish a tune out.  Ron and I have BOTH a TTS and a Twin Scan+ kit.  For folks with older bikes... and have an old SERT laying around, this is THE way to tune those bikes.

PM me and I will swing you over to the seller.  I, myself, am not selling these and also do not wish to post online publicly who is selling these for this incredible price.  Mayor...  NOW is the time to get in and throw one of these on the shelf for later.

This will FURTHER my knowledge, and everybody elses, if we get quite a bit of action on this thread as time goes on.

Robin, I would imagine we WILL post pix, etc for you!!!

[rbabos]

Very interesting to know how the VE's differ when measured with widebands. 

That and what the actual afrs I'm tuned to. Right now it's only a guess.
Ron

So what's the plan? Replace O2 bungs in the Supertrapp with widebands, set the whole AFR map to 13.5 and see what comes out? At least that is something  I have planned to do (in a dyno)

Basically I want to establish good solid ve's and a real afr starting point. From there, work out some form of afr table that agrees with all running conditions. Without solid ve's a tune is basically chit.
That's step one for me and even though it runs decent I feel it could be better in some aspects. Twinscan might point me in the right direction for improvement.
The build is the HTT 120. 110 heads done by Don Dorfman (Dewey's Heads), .010 over 120r pistons, SE 120R crank,  195ccp, S&S 585ES cams, 55 hpi with 1.8 manifold. 2-1 Supertrap 26disc closed end.
DNO-176 calibration. Fuel is 91 octane.
Ron

[Hilly13]

I really like the idea of knowing what the real AFR is, but how do you know if the wideband is accurate? Just a genuine question nothing more.

[rbabos]

I really like the idea of knowing what the real AFR is, but how do you know if the wideband is accurate? Just a genuine question nothing more.

Given the free air sensor calibration for the wego unit, should be acceptably accurate for our needs. Nothings perfect but don't think the error would amount to much.
Ron

[Hilly13]

Thanks Ron, sounds like a good thing.

[TXChop]

Do you guys tune to a flat 13.2 or so and then set the afr's? Or tune to the AFR desired?
AE,DE,AKR all get shut off? Or are gentle movements better?
Does the TS record as long as you want hooked up to a laptop like a vtune run?

Can bike be ridden when sensors arent recording, will it hurt the sensor?

Sorry for the newbie questions, have the Ts kit for years now, just never really used it.


Oh and can a bosch 17014 sensor be used to replace a bad one by just re-wiring the connector?

[rbabos]

Do you guys tune to a flat 13.2 or so and then set the afr's? Or tune to the AFR desired?
AE,DE,AKR all get shut off? Or are gentle movements better?
Does the TS record as long as you want hooked up to a laptop like a vtune run?

Can bike be ridden when sensors arent recording, will it hurt the sensor?

Sorry for the newbie questions, have the Ts kit for years now, just never really used it.


Oh and can a bosch 17014 sensor be used to replace a bad one by just re-wiring the connector?

Good questions and most I can't help you with since I will be using one for the first time also shortly. What has come out in the afr section is it might be better to not set 13.2-13.5 across the board and instead set more normal afrs like 13.8 idle, 14.2 cruise and 13.2 wfo. This would cause less error since the range would be reduced. In the same fashion I'd likely cancel out AE,DE,and all knock sensing features. My idea, I don't want influenced readings. How they play out later is no concern to me once ve's are set. This would be more of an AFR adjustment area to be dealt with later as far as I know.
Twinscan has it's own recording storage , separate from the laptop.  It can be viewed from the laptop after the run.
Don't think running the sensor unheated will do it any favours but not sure.
This is where one of the top tuners that use this system should  explain its use right from hookup, gathering data and finalizing the ve's in the map. I'm sure there's variations between tuners but it would be good to hear all methods, both dyno and road tuning.
Ron

[hrdtail78]

It will record as long as you want on a computer.

IMO mapping VE's to a steady AFR is better.  Tuning AFR comes after setting the VE's.

Tried to leave your thread alone Truk.

[wurk_truk]

It will record as long as you want on a computer.

IMO mapping VE's to a steady AFR is better.  Tuning AFR comes after setting the VE's.

Tried to leave your thread alone Truk.

Yep.  This is the way to go in my book.  How bout sending that TS my way so I can ship it north Jason?  All of us should get things together so that we can all play around as a bunch... me, you Chop, Ron, etc and play around a bit.  I will look into my primary issue this week and have it figured out soon (I Hope).

[rbabos]

It will record as long as you want on a computer.

IMO mapping VE's to a steady AFR is better.  Tuning AFR comes after setting the VE's.

Tried to leave your thread alone Truk.

It seems we already have a small issue regarding methods based on the other thread afr actual that has me jumping between the two.  Steady state afr is the norm for sure but I will be road tuning this sucker and Stroker does bring up a valid point in that having my present running afrs more or less set closer to where they should be. In theory the adjustment points should be less, with less error should one move the calibrated 13.2-13.5 steady afr from twinscan to the 14.2 ish for actual engine running. Not wanting to start the usual pissing matches but realistic pros and cons to both theorys. Both work, but without a dyno, which would be more productive and accurate for road tuning? The big if in my case is are my afrs accurate enough now to go this route?
Ron