singh groove

[tireater]

Neither of my bikes ever got more than 33mpg...I always ride hard...I now reguarly get 40mpg on both my bikes...
My 05 FLHT never got more than 155 miles on a tank...you were coasting at 155...
It is not unusual to fill up at 155 now and have a gallon left in the tank...
I filled up the bagger last night at 167 miles and had a half gallon left in the tank...

[Tattoo]

From the good results my homemade grooves are getting...It appears you don't need a mill....or even a garage...

Fitch claims the same results for $50.00 and you don't even have to pull your heads or fuel tank for that matter. You can even install them in your driveway!!

[hotroadking]

I have to agree with RVEddy,

1) there is no verifiable data that can suggest any differences in the performance other than he said she said on the net, and we know what that suggests.
2) if this were the end all be all of better combustion, and the fact that the grooves have been around longer than Singh's patent then they would be already in production motors, we are not talking a significant cost addition to the production line simply a change in the mold for casting the heads, car, truck, bike, lawnmower etc..
3) It may simply be that the cuts, grooves whatever you call them are increasing the CC's of the head by enough, maybe not much but enough to lower compression

Who knows, go ahead if you feel it's worth it, but at some point if a respectable engine shop were to be able to provide the details and prove the viability then show us the money!

guess I'll just be a skeptic...

[Sonny S.]

1) there is no verifiable data that can suggest any differences in the performance other than he said she said on the net, and we know what that suggests.


I understand completely. I'm still waiting for someone to prove that the grooves do nothing at all...... no one can do that.....just he said, she said.
As for the theory that cutting the grooves increases CC and lowers compression.... well, not when the heads are milled accordingly.

Oh well, it is what it is......

[Faast Ed]

3) It may simply be that the cuts, grooves whatever you call them are increasing the CC's of the head by enough, maybe not much but enough to lower compression

Most of us shave the head to compensate for that. Grooves actually allow you to run higher compression than you normally would (without the ping).

they would be already in production motors, we are not talking a significant cost addition to the production line simply a change in the mold for casting the heads, car, truck, bike, lawnmower etc..

Mass production won't allow for .030 quench and grooves aren't effective in wide quenches.

1) there is no verifiable data that can suggest any differences in the performance other than he said she said on the net, and we know what that suggests.

So everyone on the net is lying? is that what "that suggests"?

No one is claiming more power. But we are getting better mileage with less ping.  206ccp on my bike with zero ping and zero hot-starts.

Don't believe in them?   Free country.  But if you haven't tried them, you have no right to make claims about them, good or bad.

It appears as if you should install the plug that you are going to be using in the head and then cut one of the grooves to point at the plug tip where the spark would be created, if that is so,

Not so.  The rest of your point is moot.   All we are looking for is to get some flamefront over to the furthest point in the tight squish area. Nothing to do with indexing plugs.

[Don D]

All good points!
Let's talk efficiency.
The term gets thrown around a lot. In the IC motor that term means increased BSFC. Period.
Here is the definition

"Brake specific fuel consumption (BSFC) is a measure of an engine's efficiency. It is the rate of fuel consumption divided by the rate of power production."

More power on less fuel

No comment on the grooves just wanted to clarify what efficiency was and how it relates to power output.

[Sonny S.]

"Brake specific fuel consumption (BSFC) is a measure of an engine's efficiency. It is the rate of fuel consumption divided by the rate of power production

Exactly. So if you have a 95" motor making 100/100 at 13.2 AFR, and you have a 95" making 100/100 at 14.2 AFR, I'd say the one running 14.2 would be more efficient. Same power, less fuel . No ?

Sonny

[ejk_dyna]

<<Grooves actually allow you to run higher compression than you normally would (without the ping).>>

How have you been able to determine this?


I am "grooves neutral"...almost cut a few in my heads sitting on my bench but held off....for now.

[Sonny S.]

ejk,

just from what others have personally experienced. I have a set of grooved heads from Larry but have not installed them yet ...working on it.

I am done with this thread.   

Just want to add what Larry keeps reminding us regarding the grooves   " CAN'T HURT "   

Sonny

[Faast Ed]

How have you been able to determine this?

In my case, it is the high ccp (206) measured cold. I am running 54's above the recommended compression. I am at 10.4:1.
I have no symptoms of overly high compression. Not one hot start not even on the hottest August days after the quick fuel stop (where my last build used to be the worst).
I really took a risk going without releases.
I also get zero ping, because the timing that the dyno required is so much lower than the norm. Adding timing took away power.

[Faast Ed]

Disclaimer:

I am not a groove salesman and have absolutely nothing to gain from getting others to try them.

I am just trading info on a message board and responding to questions and statements.
We all love our Harleys and it is fun to talk about them.

[harleytoprock]

If you take a running bike, yank and groove the heads and do nothing else, will you now have less power till you pull out some fuel and timing advance?

[Ken R]

Disclaimer:

I am not a groove salesman and have absolutely nothing to gain from getting others to try them.

I am just trading info on a message board and responding to questions and statements.
We all love our Harleys and it is fun to talk about them.

I find this topic fascinating.  Have learned more about internal combustion engines than I ever knew existed.  I hope we can keep exchanging information.  I'm leaning towards grooves in a few weeks; but I'm having my doubts about measurable gains in efficiency.  Wish that user "Automotivebreath" could give his input as he did on the VTF this past summer.  He grooves heads on race engines, I think.

[crazycalvin]

If you take a running bike, yank and groove the heads and do nothing else, will you now have less power till you pull out some fuel and timing advance?

That is an interesting question.  Later, Calvin.

[Faast Ed]

If you take a running bike, yank and groove the heads and do nothing else, will you now have less power till you pull out some fuel and timing advance?

I'd have to say YES to that question, very likely that would be the case. The bike wants less fuel because the fuel it has is burning so much better. Once it gets less fuel it wants less timing, that part I can't explain thoroughly.

[RevFastEddy]

The bike wants less fuel because the fuel it has is burning so much better. Once it gets less fuel it wants less timing, that part I can't explain thoroughly.

Power produced is determined by the amount of BTUs liberated in the burn process of the engine. I submit that if you "groove" the heads only and retest that taking fuel out and making more hp is a possibility but not because of the grooves. The engine was running richer than needed is all. As for timing... less fuel to burn means less time needed to burn it because leaner mixtures burn faster than rich... Just drop in  a new set of plugs and you can get similar results.

[wfolarry]

The bike wants less fuel because the fuel it has is burning so much better. Once it gets less fuel it wants less timing, that part I can't explain thoroughly.

Power produced is determined by the amount of BTUs liberated in the burn process of the engine. I submit that if you "groove" the heads only and retest that taking fuel out and making more hp is a possibility but not because of the grooves. The engine was running richer than needed is all. As for timing... less fuel to burn means less time needed to burn it because leaner mixtures burn faster than rich... Just drop in  a new set of plugs and you can get similar results.

Does that mean all those guys that bought new bikes that were running lean just needed to change their plugs? I bet there's a lot of guys out there kicking themselves right now. Damn............

[Faast Ed]

The engine was running richer than needed is all.

I've heard that exact comment from a couple of carb guys that tried the grooves.  Complained that it ran pig rich until they swapped to smaller jets.
Adding the grooves caused them to need smaller jets.   Grooves hadda been doing something.

[Faast Ed]

please do not loose sight of the facts, 

Can you please make a list of the facts that we " lost sight of "?

Then show us the posts where we did that?

The grooves want less fuel, which wants less timing.  How is that NOT a biproduct of grooves?

Oh, you never tried them so I guess you wouldn't really know about grooves.   Tsk tsk.  LOL

[HDDOC]

As far as I know, the first guy on this site to use the grooves was Dave Brode, he gave a complete detailed report as to what he had found useing the squish grooves a picture of the grooves also that he did himself. I would like to hear more from Dave on these squish grooves, As I believe he has a few years now useing them.  Thanks Doc

[HDDOC]

I can not remember Daves whole thread on theses grooves, but it was very interesting to see what he had done, as far as I know, he is still useing them.  Doc

[wfolarry]

How many guys when looking at a piston think that a clean squish area is a good thing?

[wfolarry]

No carbon also means no combustion in the area as well.

[Deye76]

The grooves are more about efficiency. Getting more of a complete burn.......

Claims are more along the lines of :
Making same power with less fuel and timing, better gas mileage, no pinging, able to run higher compression, can often run on 89 octane with no problem. Smoother running at low rpm's.

Sure, if you lean anything out enough you get good mileage. Well, Dave Brode did a 10:1 BB, 203 bike, and he couldn't even run the N65C ( popular ) Sportster needle without it being blubbery rich. Ran stock needle / jetting as I recall.

Sonny, stop and think about what you stated in your last couple of posts, a completae burn occurs at 13.2 that's science, not opinion, just fact. You guys for get the fact that the object is to burn all the oxygen NOT all the fuel, you will NEVER burn all the fuel, all you are doing by running 14.5 or what ever is deluting the exhaust gases with valuable oxygen, WASTED oxygen.

Logic would tell you that IF combustion was more efficient you would be able to ADD fuel not be required to remove it, and as side note less fuel requires less timing, that is also science, not opinion, nor a by-product of grooving, just the way it is. As for the "Same" power, there is no way, you can "burn" less fuel and make "more" power, it just can't happen, period, that's also science. You can wast fuel and make less power, but you can not "burn" less, and make more.

Now, that I posted that, groove or no groove, those are the facts. So as you pro-groovers post your testimonials, please do not loose sight of the facts, It seems to be confusing the issue.

Red, What does "Same" power have to do with "more" power. Please explain. If somone is claiming the "same power" with less timing and fuel, I don't read that as a claim of "more" power. Clarification needed.

[Deye76]

Ed, grooves or no grooves less fuel requires less timing, that is a fact.

AFR's higher then 13.2 waste oxygen, that is a fact

The object of higher performance is to consume ALL the oxygen that you spend your money on to get, that is a fact.

If all you are looking for is less fuel and less timing, you don't need a groove. Just pull out the fuel, and you will be required to pull out the timing. That is a fact.

It may sound like I am "anti" groove, but on the contrary, I don't care if you guys drill holes in your heads, I am mearly pointing out the the atributes you describe in reality don't not show the grooves to be a positive. If you think about what you guys are saying you are making them sound like a negative. Up to this point all we have is "Less fuel less timing" the real questions are:

1. You hit a limit of AFR's in the 14's. Why?
2. You assume that the engine makes the same power with the lower fuel amount. Why? and How?
3. Explain the effect on the combustion. In spite of your claims, up to this point (IMO) you guys are makeing it look bad.

Red, if one "just pulls out fuel, requiring them to pull out timing" won't there be less power? Maybe even considerably less?