Which 2-2 are as good or better than a 2-1?

[Sc00ter]

Have to follow on Howie's, Scott's and other's satisfaction with the Fatcats.  Have them on a 107 build that offers fair performance and a basically stock 95" on an old Road Glide.  On both bikes the torque is in early and well.  Excelling pulling baggers.  With the remainder of the builds matched up nicely and a good tune no dip problems with either of them either.

The only mufflers I ever had even close to comparable performance out of when using duals compared to 2-1 was the old White Brothers E Series mufflers.  Though they've not been available for several years now.  Too bad as they were great mufflers for anyone wedded to the true dual look.  They could be tuned to pull nearly as well as a good 2-1 and they sounded great.

Competely satisfied in the FatCats with their quiet baffle option though.  The bikes run great.  Like the sound.  And (I think I mentioned this) the bikes run great .

[/color]

Another John Golden tune!

[Dennis The Menace]

Hey Scooter...old man raced and built exhaust systems for local dirt track racers in Oregon in the 60's and 70's.  1/4 mile late models.  Some of the local guys went on to NASCAR involvement of some sort.  Harold Hardesty came to southern Oregon after his NASCAR career, and drove for awhile for fun.  He did real well, and was a favorite.

[Admiral Akbar]

"OMG, somebody gets it!!! Thumbs Up Thumbs Up Thumbs Up"

Shoulda known it was Joes..  Looks good.. I run a Bassani on a 116 dyna and last check it was 4 hp compared to a set of 2 into 2 I had.. I think one thing most are forgetting here is that there is a difference in performance between true duals on a bagger and those on an FXR or Dyna.. Which is what the discussion is about here.. True duals on a bagger are usually way different in length. It's harder to get them to tune well.. Cycle shack makes a stagger dual for baggers that are equal lenght.. But no on seem to run them..

Menace,

Definitely with you on the pipe tuning.. In the early 70s, I learned you build a motor best you can then spend time on the dyno cutting stuff up until you find your numbers.. Saw a 250 cc 4 stroke single go from 24 hp rear wheel to 34 HP rear wheel with pipe / intake and tuning alone.. Not bad considering that a stock 71 CB750k1 got 34 on the same dyno.. Now the water cooled 4 stroke singles regularly crank out about 34 ponies.

BTW,

RD, I'd use the Bassani sense you already got it, don't think the CSs flow enough to work well with a 113.. If you were trying to recover some low end on a 95 ci motor running the bassani.. I'd bet the CSs would do better but might not give you the top end HP. I'd bet that you could squeeze more out that motor with a good 2 into 2 than the Bassani though.

Max

[Sc00ter]

Hey Scooter...old man raced and built exhaust systems for local dirt track racers in Oregon in the 60's and 70's.  1/4 mile late models.  Some of the local guys went on to NASCAR involvement of some sort.  Harold Hardesty came to southern Oregon after his NASCAR career, and drove for awhile for fun.  He did real well, and was a favorite.

Always fun to hear from those with a racing background.   

My father raced Road Racing for almost 50 years and my god-father was one of the top midwest pavement short track guys around.  As a result, much of my life has been at one race track or another.  My father retired from road racing in the mid 90's and my god-father died of cancer a few years back (althought his son is still an occaisional Nationwide/Truck Series Nascar crew chief).

[Twolanerider]

Another John Golden tune!

Definitely.  When he's that close and that good and makes the bikes that happy it's a no brainer.  Feel sorry for the poor bastards that don't have good tuners within easy range.

[jazzman713]

i have been looking at the s&s slip on for some time and have been told a couple times they are good pipes but i never hear anyone talk about them i know they dont look good like others but im not into looks just want a good ride

[sean fxd]

<<did you sit on that dyno sheet or something? all squished ... what does it look like when it isnt all compressed?>>

Another typical Joe's sheet.  All scrunched up to make the tq curve look better.  Uncorrected power numbers, blah, blah.  And yes everyone knows he is a great tuner.

<<it was tuned by combustion efficiency method, not AFR, which I'm a true believer in!>>

OK i'll bite.  What exactly is this method of tuning?  Using a term like that I hope it is more than just tuning to best power regardless of exact AFR.

<<Sorry I don't have the SERT tuned run on my computer. But it was tuned by Bean of Big Boyz, and believe me, the shape of the curve's the same!>>

So did BigBoyz tune this exact bike in same configuration as Joe's?  I would love to see that dyno sheet, especially if it is SAE which most BB sheets are, IIRC.

Sean

[sean fxd]

<<A lot of this is matching the pipe to the build>>

Max- obviously if FLTRI was able to change the fatcat bagger pipe to a supertrapp and the dip went away it was a pipe issue...assuming that FLTRI tuned properly which is a good bet.  But you see similar (or identical) builds on softails/dyna's with fatcat that don't have the dip so it seems that there is something specific to that pipe configuration that causes this dip.

Sean

[Hoist!]

<<did you sit on that dyno sheet or something? all squished ... what does it look like when it isnt all compressed?>>

Another typical Joe's sheet.  All scrunched up to make the tq curve look better.  Uncorrected power numbers, blah, blah.  And yes everyone knows he is a great tuner.

<<it was tuned by combustion efficiency method, not AFR, which I'm a true believer in!>>

OK i'll bite.  What exactly is this method of tuning?  Using a term like that I hope it is more than just tuning to best power regardless of exact AFR.

<<Sorry I don't have the SERT tuned run on my computer. But it was tuned by Bean of Big Boyz, and believe me, the shape of the curve's the same!>>

So did BigBoyz tune this exact bike in same configuration as Joe's?  I would love to see that dyno sheet, especially if it is SAE which most BB sheets are, IIRC.

Sean

Gotta love it!!! Very passionate subject this dyno tuning chit, believers and disbelievers, and who's full of crap and who's not!!! No agenda for me man. My bike, my testing, my tunes, done by people I know and people I trust. So I'll give ya the benefit of the doubt that your post was good spirited and I'll just respond. My suggestion is that you simply ask a question instead of using a cynical tone to it with people you don't know FWIW!!!

The bike was tuned twice at Big Boyz. This is the first tune from last June, '08. I went back to visit them again in Sept, and spent some time getting her tweaked and fine tuned. That last fine tune got her perfect. This tune was good, but we were able to squeeze more out of the top end performance, which I knew felt a lil off up top. We spent a lot of time just tweaking after a day and a half building this first map. WOT numbers went up and so did my gas mileage, as well as eliminating some popping I was still getting.

Reason I say numbers don't matter is that ALL dynos are different. Rather than debating dyno tuning with you, which I'm no expert at (which is why I have an expert do it and not me), I'll defer to springer-, who I'm sure will be happy to chime in and explain the combustion tuning process for you.

That all said, the first chart is the sweep run, and the second the WOT run. Hopefully springer- at some point can get me the final runs from Sept, as I had a wedding I was running very late for in Portland that same day. But these charts give you an idea. Joe's charts are squished, so what! Look at the numbers and with 100 at 2000 and climbing, then dropping to 100 at 6000 on Joe's chart, is what I was referring to as being a flat curve. I hope you don't think I'm that lame that I was only referring to the shape without relating it to the numbers!!! I've nothing to prove and am not afraid to share, so as you asked, here's my preliminary charts from Big Boyz. All I can say is my bike pulls like a mutha! And if ya don't know me, ask around. I ride the living chit out of my bikes, break my share of chit doing it, and sometimes have more balls than brains when I'm racing. Just relax a lil and use this information, not to tear it apart, but simply from someone who's put a lot of time and effort into getting his bike to run as good as possible, and willing to share the information with you.

Hoist!

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[Hoist!]

Second run at WOT.

Hoist!

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[Hoist!]

Really wish I had the Sept run too, but believe me, I LOVE THE WAY MY BIKE RUNS AND THAT's ALL THAT MATTERS!!!

Hoist!

[GoFast.....]

I am going to test a 2 into 2. Let the pipe cool down enough to take it off and then dyno it with a 2 into 1 at the ended of this month, I do not think testing on two diffrent dynos will work as a comparesion and diffrent days on the same dyno. To many diffrent variable factors to deal with.

[ejk_dyna]

<<So I'll give ya the benefit of the doubt that your post was good spirited and I'll just respond. My suggestion is that you simply ask a question instead of using a cynical tone to it with people you don't know FWIW!!!>>

Hoist,

I don't think Sean was trying to get your goat in any way.  You seem like a really positive, committed HD guy which is great for HTT.

Because you are new to HTT you don't have the "backstory" on things...and one of those things is Joe's...LOL.  Lot of discussion about his dyno sheets, the high readings, uncorrected, squinched up tq scale which makes the tq curve appear flat.  None of that is your problem.  I think everyone acknowledges he is a hell of a tuner.  That's where that came from...no need to reopen that can of worms.

Looking at Bean's dyno sheet (it is a Factory Pro so that has it's own comparability issues with DJ250...great dyno though)  just curious what you build specifics are with a tq peak at 4500-4800rpm.

I would also like to hear exactly what the "combustion efficiency" tuning method is.

Thanks

[Faast Ed]

I am going to test a 2 into 2. Let the pipe cool down enough to take it off and then dyno it with a 2 into 1 at the ended of this month, I do not think testing on two diffrent dynos will work as a comparesion and diffrent days on the same dyno. To many diffrent variable factors to deal with.

Good news.   When I was changing baffles during a dyno playday last year, we used the mini blowers aiming at the pipes (same kind of blowers they cool your motor with) and them pipes cooled off remarkably fast! Made it conveneint to horse around with baffle changes.

[dakota224]

 python 3`s are about as good as it gets when it comes to 2 into 2 pipes for softails & dynas.. look  at  www.nightrider.com and check the Exhaust comparison chart..  Thunderheader slipons are good for baggers.

[Scramjet]

<<So I'll give ya the benefit of the doubt that your post was good spirited and I'll just respond. My suggestion is that you simply ask a question instead of using a cynical tone to it with people you don't know FWIW!!!>>

Hoist,

I don't think Sean was trying to get your goat in any way.  You seem like a really positive, committed HD guy which is great for HTT.

Because you are new to HTT you don't have the "backstory" on things...and one of those things is Joe's...LOL.  Lot of discussion about his dyno sheets, the high readings, uncorrected, squinched up tq scale which makes the tq curve appear flat.  None of that is your problem.  I think everyone acknowledges he is a hell of a tuner.  That's where that came from...no need to reopen that can of worms.

Looking at Bean's dyno sheet (it is a Factory Pro so that has it's own comparability issues with DJ250...great dyno though)  just curious what you build specifics are with a tq peak at 4500-4800rpm.

I would also like to hear exactly what the "combustion efficiency" tuning method is.

Thanks

Hoist,

I am of the same opinion as Sean.  There is a lot of history on this and I do not think EJK Dyna was trying to imply anything between the lines.

For example, my D&D Fatcat build has a 3 TQ dip at 100TQ at 3500 RPM.  You simply can not see that dip when the scale is compressed.

B

For the original post; in a moderate build the Cycle Shack slip-ons on factory head pipes with crossovers will perform well.

[Sc00ter]

My tune...  110 CI, Wes Brown Cycle Rama heads, Cycle Rama cams, HPI 62mm throttle body and air cleaner, Axtell cylinders, CP Pistons and rings, S&S limited travel lifters, SE tapered pushrods, SE roller rocker arms, Feuling camplate, Feuling Oil Pump, Cometic gaskets, D&D Fatcats with quiet performance baffles - built by me and tuned by John Golden - Rolling Thunder Dyno - Joplin, Mo.   approx. 40 mpg at 75/80 mph freeway speeds - and no torque dip...

[attachment removed after 60 days by system]

[Hoist!]

<<So I'll give ya the benefit of the doubt that your post was good spirited and I'll just respond. My suggestion is that you simply ask a question instead of using a cynical tone to it with people you don't know FWIW!!!>>

Hoist,

I don't think Sean was trying to get your goat in any way.  You seem like a really positive, committed HD guy which is great for HTT.

Because you are new to HTT you don't have the "backstory" on things...and one of those things is Joe's...LOL.  Lot of discussion about his dyno sheets, the high readings, uncorrected, squinched up tq scale which makes the tq curve appear flat.  None of that is your problem.  I think everyone acknowledges he is a hell of a tuner.  That's where that came from...no need to reopen that can of worms.

Looking at Bean's dyno sheet (it is a Factory Pro so that has it's own comparability issues with DJ250...great dyno though)  just curious what you build specifics are with a tq peak at 4500-4800rpm.

I would also like to hear exactly what the "combustion efficiency" tuning method is.

Thanks

HeHe!!! It took so long to type this that Scott already answered. We have similar builds. Here's my story!

Thanks for you explanation ejk! You're right, no idea of the history at all. I've heard people question his numbers, but like I said, it was never about the numbers to me. It's about how my bike runs , feels, and seat of the pants! My ass dyno tells me all I need to know. Were it a carb, I'd need no dyno. With this FI stuff, the only way to get it best is to make the right map for your build. So I first put a PC on and hightailed it to Upstate NY to meet Joe. Him and I subsequently became good friends. He got my bike running awesome, and I was very happy with it except for gas mileage. But I really wanted an ECM that could control my motor, not an add-on device to do it. So I wound up researching and travelled all the way to Augusta, ME to have Bean tune my bike with the SERT. Again, same result. Bean and springer_ and I also became friends as a result. I was happy with Bean's tune, but also felt like it was detuned up top, and had a lil popping. So back I went in Sept and Bean NAILED it this time. Now it runs like the same MoFo Joe made it, but with good gas mileage to boot. Not one to care about the numbers themselves, the shape of the curves are what I'm after. It was  component tested at Joe's by trying many things after it was designed a certain way by Wes Brown. Between myself, Wes, and Joe, and Wes sending us stuff to try at our request, we got that motor doing what it should. And I was very happy with the result. HeHe!!! Then Scott built his!!!

It's an '07 SERK. The build consists of Wes Brown custom made CVO 110 heads made from HD blanks! Don't have the specs as I trusted his design. But my builder spoke highly of his headwork. It was milled 0.040" and use Cometic 0.030" HG's, for a static CR of 9.8:1. It had Feuling camplate oil pump, pushrods, race lifters, TP Roller Rockers and Rocker Boxes, 4" Axtell Barrels w/CP forged pistons and I'm using Wes' custom ground CR 590G cams designed for the CVO 110 motor specifically. The bottom end is converted to a Timken bearing design with S&S forged 3/8" leg built in CVO 110 cases. It uses a 62m HPI TB w/HPI hi-flow A/C assembly. So that's the crux of the engine components. That was til I blew it up at the end of last season again! Well blown up's a lil strong. Wiped out a front intake lifter and still raced that thing all over the Smoke Mountains for a week after I felt/heard it go, and still rode the chit out of it back up to NYC. ALL with my OL on the back and loaded with luggage!!!

Now the motor is built by North Shore MC in New Hyde Park, LI, NY, by a close friend Vern, who's been doing my motors for 15 years, does our whole crews motors, and been building motors for over 25 years. I'm detuning it now per Vern's advice so it'll hold together a lil better since Vern knows my maniac riding style very well. After all, I learned it from him. Most of what I know was taught to me by hanging around Vern's shop all these years, and watching him build motors and partying til 4 AM some nights. It's what I love! It's what we all do! It's our passion, not a friggin hobby or sport. IT'S MY LIFE!!!

This build will now have Vern rebuilt heads, S&S 585G cams, S&S Lifters w/limiters, S&S pushrods, same Ps and C's-recrosshatched with new rings, and the same RB assembly. The same bottom end components with the bottom end rebuilt after a thourough cleaning including a Baker plus 1 OP and new oil cooler core. I'm not taking no chances of contamination from the failed lifter. Then back to Bean I'll go after breakin to have her retuned. I hope I'm happy with the milder build. But I have 4 other bikes I can get my rocks of with when I want. This is my Touring Bike and needs to hold together. I'll go out on my Vern built lil 514lb '89" Evo on a Boyce Pro Street swingarm frame w/5-speed trans. That bike FLIES!!! I have a '99 CVO FXR3 in Blue Flame, 1 of only 64 ever made. I have a completely rebuilt '85FXWG with RevTech 110" Evo and RT 6-speed trans, Traxxion Dynamics Suspension, and PM everything else. I used the takeoffs from my original 4-speed Evo FXWG to build a Paugho Wishbone frame Bobber out of just for S&G!!!

So yes, I'd say I'm committed, or better yet, maybe need to be committed! I thank you for noticing and appreciate the way you've addressed me. I would not have gotten so defensive had I been addressed that way from the start. But hey, I'm the Newbie here!!! Even though I'm way not a Newbie, I guess I start from scratch on this Board! So hey, give the Newbie some chit! I might have skinny arms, but got pretty big shoulders!!!

Hoist!

[Hoist!]

<<So I'll give ya the benefit of the doubt that your post was good spirited and I'll just respond. My suggestion is that you simply ask a question instead of using a cynical tone to it with people you don't know FWIW!!!>>

Hoist,

I don't think Sean was trying to get your goat in any way.  You seem like a really positive, committed HD guy which is great for HTT.

Because you are new to HTT you don't have the "backstory" on things...and one of those things is Joe's...LOL.  Lot of discussion about his dyno sheets, the high readings, uncorrected, squinched up tq scale which makes the tq curve appear flat.  None of that is your problem.  I think everyone acknowledges he is a hell of a tuner.  That's where that came from...no need to reopen that can of worms.

Looking at Bean's dyno sheet (it is a Factory Pro so that has it's own comparability issues with DJ250...great dyno though)  just curious what you build specifics are with a tq peak at 4500-4800rpm.

I would also like to hear exactly what the "combustion efficiency" tuning method is.

Thanks

Hoist,

I am of the same opinion as Sean.  There is a lot of history on this and I do not think EJK Dyna was trying to imply anything between the lines.

For example, my D&D Fatcat build has a 3 TQ dip at 100TQ at 3500 RPM.  You simply can not see that dip when the scale is compressed.

B

For the original post; in a moderate build the Cycle Shack slip-ons on factory head pipes with crossovers will perform well.

HeHe!!! I don't consider that a dip! Hell I don't even ride down there. When you talk dip, talk dip I'd feel! 3 ft-lbs at the bottom, WTF cares about that!!!

Hoist!

[Faast Ed]

   Another way to get rid of the D & D dip is to scrap the Bagger for a Softail.   
Softies don't seem to be experiencing that.   Pretty sensible idea, no?   

[Sc00ter]

  Another way to get rid of the D & D dip is to scrap the Bagger for a Softail.   
Softies don't seem to be experiencing that.   Pretty sensible idea, no?   

hehe...   

no - not such a good idea...

But like I said earlier....what dip?

[Hoist!]

  Another way to get rid of the D & D dip is to scrap the Bagger for a Softail.   
Softies don't seem to be experiencing that.   Pretty sensible idea, no?   

hehe...   

no - not such a good idea...

But like I said earlier....what dip?

HeHe!!! I like dip! Onion Dip with Ruffles please!!! Rrrrrrrrrrrrruffles Have Rrrrrrrrrrrrrrridges!!!

Hoist!

[Don D]

Hoist sounds like a hot ride and through build, details! Good job
I am sure you now know about the Feuling race lifters and issues and it might be an idea to turn the valve spring pressure down a notch too, those 585s are soft lift compared to some grinds out there. Even with big valves 175# on the seat high 300s open is adequate JMHO.

[Hoist!]

Hoist sounds like a hot ride and through build, details! Good job
I am sure you now know about the Feuling race lifters and issues and it might be an idea to turn the valve spring pressure down a notch too, those 585s are soft lift compared to some grinds out there. Even with big valves 175# on the seat high 300s open is adequate JMHO.

Thanks man! We're using single spring S&S springs, setup for the 585's. Vern uses em all thee time W/O issue. Don't think the'yre even that strong.  I'm familiar now with the whole Feuling lifter and spring pressure thing. Wes built the heads the first time. Prolly oversprung. Now we're building the entire motor ourselves-Vern's way, so everything will be the correct component selection and assembled properly. That motor was the last time I tell Vern what I want to use. I went to Wes because he designed my package SPECIFICALLY for the CVO 110. And it sure was a runner!!! Just not a laster! I'll take just a wee less of a runner if I can get a laster this time too! And I think a Vern Built 110 will get me there. All my other Vern Builts always did!!!

Hoist!

[Admiral Akbar]

You are running 585s, Fatcat and no dip? I'm impressed.  Max