Which 2-2 are as good or better than a 2-1?

[springer-]

The equipment we use to tune is different than most other tuners use.  Most (probably 99%) tune with AFR.  We don't use AFR for tuning, we can't see the AFR, have no way to measure AFR and don't adjust for AFR.

We use combustion science to tune the engine. When fuel is burned it is a chemical reaction. The chemical reaction gives off by products, these are the emissions. CO, CO2, HC and O2 are all emission in the exhaust gasses. AFR only looks at the O2, the least important in the equation. Carbon Monoxide, CO is partially burned fuel. Carbon Dioxide, CO2 is fully burned fuel. Hydrocarbons, HC is raw unburned fuel. Oxygen, O2 is left over that isn't used in the combustion process.  We look at the emissions in the exhaust gasses. The gas readings give us indications of how the timing is, if there is too much or to little fuel for the amount of oxygen available etc.

Using a 4 gas analyzer we tune the combustion process.  When the combustion process is most efficient, the engine is making best power. We tune for best power across the entire RPM and Load range.  We tune for Best power at cruise as well, and shoot for the leaner side of the scale. This yields very good fuel economy, cleaner combustion and power on tap.  

I am not saying EFI can't be tuned with AFR, it just isn't the way we do it.  

[Hoist!]

You are running 585s, Fatcat and no dip? I'm impressed.  Max

Not quite. I haven't finished that build yet. We'll see how she runs and tunes! I'll be sure to let youze know, and show ya the results!

Hoist!

[Hoist!]

The equipment we use to tune is different than most other tuners use.  Most (probably 99%) tune with AFR.  We don't use AFR for tuning, we can't see the AFR, have no way to measure AFR and don't adjust for AFR.

We use combustion science to tune the engine. When fuel is burned it is a chemical reaction. The chemical reaction gives off by products, these are the emissions. CO, CO2, HC and O2 are all emission in the exhaust gasses. AFR only looks at the O2, the least important in the equation. Carbon Monoxide, CO is partially burned fuel. Carbon Dioxide, CO2 is fully burned fuel. Hydrocarbons, HC is raw unburned fuel. Oxygen, O2 is left over that isn't used in the combustion process.  We look at the emissions in the exhaust gasses. The gas readings give us indications of how the timing is, if there is too much or to little fuel for the amount of oxygen available etc.

Using a 4 gas analyzer we tune the combustion process.  When the combustion process is most efficient, the engine is making best power. We tune for best power across the entire RPM and Load range.  We tune for Best power at cruise as well, and shoot for the leaner side of the scale. This yields very good fuel economy, cleaner combustion and power on tap.  

I am not saying EFI can't be tuned with AFR, it just isn't the way we do it.  

And as an HVAC Engineer, I understand this, fully agree, and why they do my tuning. I'm very happy with their results too. But I'd rather they speak on this since they tuned it. Thanks for the explanation for me (and the GREAT tune)!

Hoist!

[Twolanerider]

You are running 585s, Fatcat and no dip? I'm impressed.  Max

Not quite. I haven't finished that build yet. We'll see how she runs and tunes! I'll be sure to let youze know, and show ya the results!

Hoist!

Did Mike get the alignment tool off to you?

[Hoist!]

You are running 585s, Fatcat and no dip? I'm impressed.  Max

Not quite. I haven't finished that build yet. We'll see how she runs and tunes! I'll be sure to let youze know, and show ya the results!

Hoist!

Did Mike get the alignment tool off to you?

I called him today but hadn't heard back. He was supposed to ship it today, 2nd day shipment. Vern's expecting it on Wed. I'd like to be there for that, so he said he'd call me when he gets it. Thanks for your help on that one Don!!!

Hoist!

[skyhook]

and here's a cvo 110" with bathtub heads, 257 cam, supermeg, hpi t/b, big injectors, power commander, dj250...this chart is uncorrected, so subtract a few points compared to sae

pipes are kinda like cams...where do you want power?...i have a dyna and want my power 3500 to 6000...with 28 discs and open end cap it makes best hp, but tq suffers...can't have our cake and eat it, too!...size of the headpipe and baffle really affect the location of the powerband

[attachment removed after 60 days by system]

[Twolanerider]

I called him today but hadn't heard back. He was supposed to ship it today, 2nd day shipment. Vern's expecting it on Wed. I'd like to be there for that, so he said he'd call me when he gets it. Thanks for your help on that one Don!!!

Hoist!

That was an easy one.  No sweat.  I'm interested too in hearing what difference (if any) he finds between how any of us might have done it with string and straight edges versus what he'll see move with the alignment tool.  Don't know if I'd told but the old SERG was spot on.  I don't think the alignment tool moved anything a frog hair.  The SEEG was helped by its use though.  Not enough riding since to really know what difference that will make in the saddle. But it can't hurt.

[ejk_dyna]

Hoist -

When you talked about the "combustion effeciency tuning method" or however you said it...I thought you were going to say Joe had invented some new double secret method... .

Now I think you are talking about the fact that Factory Pro Dyno's (like Big Boyz) use a 4 gas EGA instead of O2 like dynojet...right?  The Factory Pro website kind of reminds me of RB Racing...they are smarter than everyone else and their competitors are dumb sh-t's 

[ederdelyi]

Before this goes "does too, does not":

Both methods can accomplish the same basic goals. In the hands of someone who truly knows what they are doing and what the equipment is capable of. One of the downsides to tuning with a gas analyzer is response time. O2 sensors have their quirks as well. I tuned with gas analyzer and EGT readings many times as well as with an O2 setup and was able to get equal results. It ain't the method, it's who is doing the tune and what they know that brings it all together.

We now take you back to regular programming. Play nice and don't hurt each other :>)

OBTW, dips are an indicator of VE, and as the intake/exhaust tune varies so will VE. VE is NOT constant in NA engines or "adder" engines either for that matter. The "dips" are there, the equipment being used to measure the output just may not have the resolution and response time to display them :>)

[Sc00ter]

You are running 585s, Fatcat and no dip? I'm impressed.  Max

My dyno printout is shown in reply #41...

Cycle Rama 595 cams and heads, Fatcat and no dip!

[Hoist!]

Hoist -

When you talked about the "combustion effeciency tuning method" or however you said it...I thought you were going to say Joe had invented some new double secret method... .

Now I think you are talking about the fact that Factory Pro Dyno's (like Big Boyz) use a 4 gas EGA instead of O2 like dynojet...right?  The Factory Pro website kind of reminds me of RB Racing...they are smarter than everyone else and their competitors are dumb sh-t's 

HeHe!!! OK? I flat out stated that Big Boyz used the Combustion Efiiciency method to tune my bike, and I believe in it. You guys love stirring the pot when it comes to tuning. Lemme guess? You have a shop and tune bikes too?

Hoist!

[ederdelyi]

Some of us just know that the wheel has not been re-invented. We've found ways to make it roll a little easier and make it to tighter tolerances, but the basic design is pretty much unchanged. A good tune is a good tune, doesn't really matter how one arrives at it. As stated in my previuos post, I've used both methods and each one has advantages and disadvantages. Neither method can eliminate the root problem(s) that cause changes in VE, only show the change and allow the tuner/builder to apply the knowledge and expertise required to address the problem. Fuel and timing alone will not be the answer to all problems. One can only attempt to maximize the use of the trapped mass that resulted from the cycle being addressed with fuel and timing adjustments.

EDIT: Don't read anything negative into this as far as individuals or methods. It's good to be enthusiastic and proud of your work. Giving an "attaboy" to those who helped you accomplish your goal is natural as well. Just remember that it can start to look like "advertising" very quickly. And no, I am not a shop owner or tuner. I don't sell anything, especially here.

[easyricer]

I'm running the S&S SPOs on my SE 95 Roadglide. With the Fatcat, I had great top end but lost some bottom end, with the modified stock pipes (BobVics Superflows) I got my bottom end back but lost the top. When I put the SPOs back on, I got both back. I love the sound and I love to power, and I'm pretty partial to the look of the wide mufflers too!
EASY

[Hoist!]

Some of us just know that the wheel has not been re-invented. We've found ways to make it roll a little easier and make it to tighter tolerances, but the basic design is pretty much unchanged. A good tune is a good tune, doesn't really matter how one arrives at it. As stated in my previuos post, I've used both methods and each one has advantages and disadvantages. Neither method can eliminate the root problem(s) that cause changes in VE, only show the change and allow the tuner/builder to apply the knowledge and expertise required to address the problem. Fuel and timing alone will not be the answer to all problems. One can only attempt to maximize the use of the trapped mass that resulted from the cycle being addressed with fuel and timing adjustments.

EDIT: Don't read anything negative into this as far as individuals or methods. It's good to be enthusiastic and proud of your work. Giving an "attaboy" to those who helped you accomplish your goal is natural as well. Just remember that it can start to look like "advertising" very quickly. And no, I am not a shop owner or tuner. I don't sell anything, especially here.

I was reffering to ej as a shop owner not you ed, but I could be wrong about that too! The pot stirrers usually have an agenda. I have none! And I will always praise those who do good work for me, and likewise, I'll let ya know when I think someone sucks too, if that was my experience with them! I don't read anything negative into it at all ed! I'm on the same page! Hey man, I LOVE my carb bikes which have never seen dynos EVER!!! Wow, what a concept, and they happen to run great too! I don't care what device you use, what dyno you use, what tuner you use! These bikes, like everything before this FI crap, need to be tuned! Just get er done!!! After all, this chit ain't ROCKET SCIENCE!!! But hey, I can stir the pot with the best of em! Lay down the ground rules, pull up to the line, and let's Rock and Roll!!!

Hoist!

[Hoist!]

I'm running the S&S SPOs on my SE 95 Roadglide. With the Fatcat, I had great top end but lost some bottom end, with the modified stock pipes (BobVics Superflows) I got my bottom end back but lost the top. When I put the SPOs back on, I got both back. I love the sound and I love to power, and I'm pretty partial to the look of the wide mufflers too!
EASY

I LOVED my SPO's on a stock motor, even a stock 110". But way too restrictive on performance builds. I wanted to keep mine after I redid my motor, but thru testing, I left WAY too much performance on the table with em! FatCats work well in performance applications, and they still have another option in the Borzilla for even bigger hi-po applications! D&D's got their chit together. This is the actually the first time I've seen so much anti FatCat sentiment. Or are most things about tearing things apart here? Either that, or you guys get too many BS'ers here, and must stay on the defensive? Just sayin!

Hoist!

[GoFast.....]

I'm running the S&S SPOs on my SE 95 Roadglide. With the Fatcat, I had great top end but lost some bottom end, with the modified stock pipes (BobVics Superflows) I got my bottom end back but lost the top. When I put the SPOs back on, I got both back. I love the sound and I love to power, and I'm pretty partial to the look of the wide mufflers too!
EASY

I LOVED my SPO's on a stock motor, even a stock 110". But way too restrictive on performance builds. I wanted to keep mine after I redid my motor, but thru testing, I left WAY too much performance on the table with em! FatCats work well in performance applications, and they still have another option in the Borzilla for even bigger hi-po applications! D&D's got their chit together. This is the actually the first time I've seen so much anti FatCat sentiment. Or are most things about tearing things apart here? Either that, or you guys get too many BS'ers here, and must stay on the defensive? Just sayin!

Hoist!

I do not think there is that much anti Fatcat feelings here. Look at the dyno section.There are plenty of Fatcats. I think we just tend to analyze everything and I do not think anyone will argue they are great at the top. The Big Fatcat dip is a well known issue

[Admiral Akbar]

"Hey man, I LOVE my carb bikes which have never seen dynos EVER!!! Wow, what a concept, and they happen to run great too! "

Well heck,,

Now I'm confused.. I've pretty much been a carb guy up until about a coupla months ago.. Bought an 02 RK classic with FI.. Thing was stage 1.. not sure it had any download.. It ran OK... Added a Tmax and it's so much eaiser to tune than the carbs. No emussion tube holes to add, no baffles on the main, no t-jets.  The thing tells you where your mixture is. All you got to do is play with the timing tables.. You need to do that with a carbed bike as well..  Not sure the bike ever needs to see a dyno cept for bragging rights...   and you don't even get gas on your hands.. Max.  

[Hoist!]

I'm running the S&S SPOs on my SE 95 Roadglide. With the Fatcat, I had great top end but lost some bottom end, with the modified stock pipes (BobVics Superflows) I got my bottom end back but lost the top. When I put the SPOs back on, I got both back. I love the sound and I love to power, and I'm pretty partial to the look of the wide mufflers too!
EASY

I LOVED my SPO's on a stock motor, even a stock 110". But way too restrictive on performance builds. I wanted to keep mine after I redid my motor, but thru testing, I left WAY too much performance on the table with em! FatCats work well in performance applications, and they still have another option in the Borzilla for even bigger hi-po applications! D&D's got their chit together. This is the actually the first time I've seen so much anti FatCat sentiment. Or are most things about tearing things apart here? Either that, or you guys get too many BS'ers here, and must stay on the defensive? Just sayin!

Hoist!

I do not think there is that much anti Fatcat feelings here. Look at the dyno section.There are plenty of Fatcats. I think we just tend to anylize everything and I do not think anyone will argue they are not great at the top. The big Fatcat dip is a well known issue

Just tryin to get stiuated here Go Fast! Thanks for the clarification. I tend not to try to nit pick or tear things aparts. I either like something or I don't. If I like it, I'll tell ya that. If I hate it, I'll tell ya that too. So far I've been responding to things and catching up on this wonderful site. Just like the parts though, people here prolly will either like me or hate me too after awhile!!! I hope it's the latter though!!!

Hoist!

[Hoist!]

"Hey man, I LOVE my carb bikes which have never seen dynos EVER!!! Wow, what a concept, and they happen to run great too! "

Well heck,,

Now I'm confused.. I've pretty much been a carb guy up until about a coupla months ago.. Bought an 02 RK classic with FI.. Thing was stage 1.. not sure it had any download.. It ran OK... Added a Tmax and it's so much eaiser to tune than the carbs. No emussion tube holes to add, no baffles on the main, no t-jets.  The thing tells you where your mixture is. All you got to do is play with the timing tables.. You need to do that with a carbed bike as well..  Not sure the bike ever needs to see a dyno cept for bragging rights...   and you don't even get gas on your hands.. Max.  

I will not debate the TMax with you man. Sorry. Like I said above, that's me man! And I'm not a Zipper's fan at all! Please leave that one alone!

Hoist!

[ederdelyi]

>>Or are most things about tearing things apart here? Either that, or you guys get too many BS'ers here, and must stay on the defensive?<<

I think you'll find that this is generally a good group with a large cross section of experience and knowledge. Most don't take things at face value, and when their own experience or knowledge differs from yours you can expect to hear about it :>) Anti-Fatcat? Nah, I don't think some dislike it any more than I dislike T-headers :>)

[GoFast.....]

"Hey man, I LOVE my carb bikes which have never seen dynos EVER!!! Wow, what a concept, and they happen to run great too! "

Well heck,,

Now I'm confused.. I've pretty much been a carb guy up until about a coupla months ago.. Bought an 02 RK classic with FI.. Thing was stage 1.. not sure it had any download.. It ran OK... Added a Tmax and it's so much eaiser to tune than the carbs. No emussion tube holes to add, no baffles on the main, no t-jets.  The thing tells you where your mixture is. All you got to do is play with the timing tables.. You need to do that with a carbed bike as well..  Not sure the bike ever needs to see a dyno cept for bragging rights...   and you don't even get gas on your hands.. Max.  

Couldn't agree more. A tmax FI does not need to ever see a dyno if thats what you want and adjusting fuel and timing is a key board and click away and no changeing jets at higher or lower elevations. Its doing it will you ride.

[Hoist!]

>>Or are most things about tearing things apart here? Either that, or you guys get too many BS'ers here, and must stay on the defensive?<<

I think you'll find that this is generally a good group with a large cross section of experience and knowledge. Most don't take things at face value, and when their own experience or knowledge differs from yours you can expect to hear about it :>) Anti-Fatcat? Nah, I don't think some dislike it any more than I dislike T-headers :>)

Certainly fair enough ed! Just tryin to understand the rules of engagement!

Hoist!

[Sc00ter]

I'm running the S&S SPOs on my SE 95 Roadglide. With the Fatcat, I had great top end but lost some bottom end, with the modified stock pipes (BobVics Superflows) I got my bottom end back but lost the top. When I put the SPOs back on, I got both back. I love the sound and I love to power, and I'm pretty partial to the look of the wide mufflers too!
EASY

I LOVED my SPO's on a stock motor, even a stock 110". But way too restrictive on performance builds. I wanted to keep mine after I redid my motor, but thru testing, I left WAY too much performance on the table with em! FatCats work well in performance applications, and they still have another option in the Borzilla for even bigger hi-po applications! D&D's got their chit together. This is the actually the first time I've seen so much anti FatCat sentiment. Or are most things about tearing things apart here? Either that, or you guys get too many BS'ers here, and must stay on the defensive? Just sayin!

Hoist!

I do not think there is that much anti Fatcat feelings here. Look at the dyno section.There are plenty of Fatcats. I think we just tend to analyze everything and I do not think anyone will argue they are great at the top. The Big Fatcat dip is a well known issue

hehe...  Here it is again...  Fatcat with Quiet Performance Baffle - no Dip!   

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[ederdelyi]

Sc00ter ... it's not just the pipe, it's how well it matches up with the rest of the build. All intake/exhaust combos have the potential to produce flucuations in the power curve when combined with certain other components such as cams and heads. If ya got a good match ... COOL!

[Sc00ter]

Sc00ter ... it's not just the pipe, it's how well it matches up with the rest of the build. All intake/exhaust combos have the potential to produce flucuations in the power curve when combined with certain other components such as cams and heads. If ya got a good match ... COOL!

Yep, I know...  That's what I have been trying to say all along...  If the Fatcat is applied in combination with the overall package, there is no dip!  With the right combination of parts, it's a hell-of-a pipe!