Power Vision questions

[strokerjlk]

205 map is not lambda I know but the 44 and the 009 maps are.  Which all of the 2009 maps are 009 based files not 202/205.  Or are we talking about something different?

the only tuner  I know off that will load a 2010. 44 or 009 lambda cal in a 2009 bike is a sepst.
the ones I have done are open loop.
I did run one in closed loop with the 18mm sensors operating for about 25 miles on the street. I returned it to open loop ,but it ran fine for that time frame.
I was only making reference to you being upset having to buy a new tuning lic. when I posted the pic of the tuners i have used on my own bike. in order to learn we have to spend money. I should have quoted your previous post ..sorry

[joe_lyons]

I will show you

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[joe_lyons]

See

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[Scotty]

Stock maps on the 09 bikes are level 218 maps and are lamda.
If you run the PV you can extract the stock map and run it as a lamda calibration.
Depending on the mods you have done to the motor there is a way to run the PV with the 2009 CVO level 218 calibration which is setup for the 110 motor and a better starting point.
TTS & SEPST never released 218 calibrations for whatever reason.

[joe_lyons]

Oh?  It matters GREATLY what year ECM you use.  09 ECM does NOT have the heater circuit for the 12mm O2s.  If you are set in stone on running Lambda base cals, you will need a 2010up ECM.  As, the internal programming is different enough to scare me off.  You most likely will not get anyone to issue you a 2009 base cal in Lambda to start with.  So... then you ARE stuck with 009 or 044 base cals.

I am running the 09 on a 2010 bike, because I traced out all of the wiring from the diagrams for both years and the 09, and I assume 08, ECM has the pin NOT wired for the heaters until 2010.  So, this is what allowed me to use the 09 ECM on a 10 bike.  I used the same wiring harness down to the grey and white plugs, THEN ran a two wire from these and abandoned the heater circuits that were non existent in the 09 ECM.

In all reality, couldn't you tune open loop with the Vision and use the AT100 kit in the 18mm bungs?

The heater circuit is powered by the system relay and the ecm just acts as the ground for it and the other two wires go to the same spot i do believe so the circuitry has always been there just like the -05 ecms and the O2 sensor setup before 06 itjust needed to be enabled. Did you ever try puting a 205 cal into the 2010 ecm and see what it would do? 

[strokerjlk]

See

I am looking at it now in the software  looks like lambda to me.
and you can turn the heater on/off ...buy a new lic and rock on.

[strokerjlk]

Oh?  It matters GREATLY what year ECM you use.  09 ECM does NOT have the heater circuit for the 12mm O2s.  If you are set in stone on running Lambda base cals, you will need a 2010up ECM.  As, the internal programming is different enough to scare me off.  You most likely will not get anyone to issue you a 2009 base cal in Lambda to start with.  So... then you ARE stuck with 009 or 044 base cals.

I am running the 09 on a 2010 bike, because I traced out all of the wiring from the diagrams for both years and the 09, and I assume 08, ECM has the pin NOT wired for the heaters until 2010.  So, this is what allowed me to use the 09 ECM on a 10 bike.  I used the same wiring harness down to the grey and white plugs, THEN ran a two wire from these and abandoned the heater circuits that were non existent in the 09 ECM.

In all reality, couldn't you tune open loop with the Vision and use the AT100 kit in the 18mm bungs?

The heater circuit is powered by the system relay and the ecm just acts as the ground for it and the other two wires go to the same spot i do believe so the circuitry has always been there just like the -05 ecms and the O2 sensor setup before 06 itjust needed to be enabled. Did you ever try puting a 205 cal into the 2010 ecm and see what it would do?

I did with a sepst. i didnt go any farther than just seeing if the bike would run. it did

[joe_lyons]

"I did with a sepst. i didnt go any farther than just seeing if the bike would run. it did"
i know that the O2 sensor reading would be off but i bet it would tune/run fine if you wired the the 0-1v correctly.

What 205 cal did you have that was lambda?  was it a file that they obsoleted?

[strokerjlk]

"I did with a sepst. i didnt go any farther than just seeing if the bike would run. it did"
i know that the O2 sensor reading would be off but i bet it would tune/run fine if you wired the the 0-1v correctly.

What 205 cal did you have that was lambda?  was it a file that they obsoleted?

it wasent lambda it was a 205cal i just put in a 2010 009 bike.


I been doing some playing with my bike and vision today. I dont have a splitter for the auto tune yet. but just using the vision to flash maps with and data collecting with twinscan.....it is a breeze and I can still use  my normal monitors....pretty sweet

[joe_lyons]

Quote "Will there  be any 205 lambda base maps?
I have a few sepst 205 lambda tuned bikes running around.( open loop and working out nice)
Have you tested any 205 lambda bikes in open loop?
Closed loop with wide bands ?
Narrow band closed loop? (12mm or 18mm)"  Reply 127

[strokerjlk]

Quote "Will there  be any 205 lambda base maps?
I have a few sepst 205 lambda tuned bikes running around.( open loop and working out nice)
Have you tested any 205 lambda bikes in open loop?
Closed loop with wide bands ?
Narrow band closed loop? (12mm or 18mm)"  Reply 127

I should have worded it diff.
maybe jamie would have understood also.
there are 009 lambda 2009 touring  sepst maps as well.
never used one in closed loop.

[wurk_truk]

My reading of the schematics are this:  the heater circuit runs directly from the ECM to the O2s.  FWIW to ya, Joe.

[joe_lyons]

My reading of the schematics are this:  the heater circuit runs directly from the ECM to the O2s.  FWIW to ya, Joe.

Where else does the Y/Gn wire go to other than the ecm or the O2 sensor heater circuit? (system relay output power 12v)   If you have an 08-09 bike and want the small O2 sensors you could run a 12v power to the O2 sensor heater pin/wire 1 and run the grounds to ecm pin 31 and use the existing two sensor wires then put a 10 and up map into the ecm I bet it will run fine and dandy.  09 and 10 bikes had the same ECM just different settings for the different O2 sensor voltage and to turn on the heater ground (which as stroker mentioned with PV you can turn off those heater grounds) So mainly what I am trying to say is that if I get any year of fbw ecm from 08 to 13 I can put a 205/202, 044, or 009 map in it and would be fine I have done it on multiple occasions with bikes to try and test for problems.  Ex. Put a known good 08 ecm into a bike and flashed a stock 11 map in and it ran fine with no issues.    Wish I still had that 08 ecm. Hindsight 20/20

[wurk_truk]

That is REALLY good info Joe!  Really good.  Thanks

[sakbm]

Hi folks,

I am about to buy the PV autotune kit with the wideband lambdas.

If I made my autotune turns and flashed the new map on my ECM, should I remove the wideband lambdas, or could i use them further without the PV permanently plugged?

Greetings from Germany

Bernhard

FLSTC 2011 96cui, with S&S teardrop aircleaner an Kess Tech slip on.

[strokerjlk]

Hi folks,

I am about to buy the PV autotune kit with the wideband lambdas.

If I made my autotune turns and flashed the new map on my ECM, should I remove the wideband lambdas, or could i use them further without the PV permanently plugged?

Greetings from Germany

Bernhard

FLSTC 2011 96cui, with S&S teardrop aircleaner an Kess Tech slip on.

I would take the wide bands out. When you do some other mods put them back in to retune.
If you want to run closed loop then use the stock sensors .
This way you always have a good set of wide bands to instal if you need to retune.

[sakbm]

Hi strokerjlk,

thank you for your fast answer!

Bernhard

[hdmanillac]

Today, I've done a log to check if everything is allright after few monthes without the PV on the handlebar.

And I've been surprised to sea lots of knock retards on front cyl and often -8° and sometimes twice.

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I wonder if a chaotique VE table could generate such knock retards and if the smooth function can eliminate them ?



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[Jamie Long]

Today, I've done a log to check if everything is allright after few monthes without the PV on the handlebar.

And I've been surprised to sea lots of knock retards on front cyl and often -8° and sometimes twice.

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I wonder if a chaotique VE table could generate such knock retards and if the smooth function can eliminate them ?

I would need to see the calibration specifically and know a bit more about your combination, however I would look closely at the timing tables in the 2250-2500 RPM 80-100kPa range as this is where the detonation is occurring in your example.

[hrdtail78]

It is also pulling timing at 15 kpa.  That's decel.  Can you post your Cal?

[Jamie Long]

It is also pulling timing at 15 kpa.  That's decel.  Can you post your Cal?

This example shows first hand the effect of the knock retard as it degrades. When the ECM picks up detonation, knock retard reduces timing based on several variables one of them which is time based. A good example is say a bike experiences a hard ping at 80kPa and you immediately roll out of the throttle, in many cases knock retard is still pulling timing for several more seconds and you are then very likely be in the lower kPa areas, this is exactly why the histogram above is showing knock retard in the lower regions. 

[rbabos]

It is also pulling timing at 15 kpa.  That's decel.  Can you post your Cal?

This example shows first hand the effect of the knock retard as it degrades. When the ECM picks up detonation, knock retard reduces timing based on several variables one of them which is time based. A good example is say a bike experiences a hard ping at 80kPa and you immediately roll out of the throttle, in many cases knock retard is still pulling timing for several more seconds and you are then very likely be in the lower kPa areas, this is exactly why the histogram above is showing knock retard in the lower regions.

Cooool. Never even thought of the decay.
Ron

[hdmanillac]

Atached are the stock cal (FLHR 2009), my tuned cal.

As you can see, VE are lower and AFR leaner in tuned cal than in stock cal. So, even if spark is lower there is knock retard.

Maybe AE table is not strong enough to compensate this lean combustion waiting for CLI to operate.



So at the moment I've done:

AFR decrease
Spark stock again (higher))
Wonder if I must increase AE table a little bit.

Thank you for your help.



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[mayor]

is the RK B&E Base EGR AT3.2.pvt call the one you are running that triggered the spark knock data? my guess is you do not have well developed VE tables on that cal.   How well did you do collecting data around 2-2.5k at the heavier loads while creating the new tune?  I think your VE values on those areas are low. 

If the VE tables are not right the desired AFR tables will not be right, but I would suggest taking the 85 kPa column out of closed loop (take it to 13.8 or less, 13.5 is probably where I would try running the 2-3.75k cells).  You still need the ve table cells to be right, but this will at least add some fuel to those ranges. 

[hdmanillac]

Yes "RK B&E Base EGR AT3.2.pvt" is the cal I was running that triggered the spark knock data.

The process used to collect datas was Autotune. What makes you say VE are not correct ? To low compare to other bikes equiped with same exhaust ?

Thanks for your help.