Power Vision questions

[mayor]

The process used to collect datas was Autotune.

using stock sensors, or the wide band kit?  did you do a good job of collecting data in the heavy load areas of the 2-2.75k rpms?  if you didn't let the tuning system see much of those areas, it will not do a good job of populating those cells.

What makes you say VE are not correct ? To low compare to other bikes equiped with same exhaust ?

simple answer, no since I do not see the exhaust you are running posted anywhere (that's a hint by the way, the best way to get help is to post all applicable info). 

That is too low based on all the other ve tables I've seen from well developed ve tables, and you should not typically see a case where the 80-95 kPa columns are less than the 70 kPa columns .  When I look at the front cylinder of your tuned cal, I see a big hole in the ve tables around 90-95 kPa columns of the 2.5k-2.75k rows, which coresponds with the spark knock issues you are having.  Most of the time, guys doing their own street tuning misses these areas because they do not know how to load the bike to reach those ranges so they don't get good data there.   

[hdmanillac]

Ok here is some more informations about my bike:

FLHR 2009
Arlen Ness Big Sucker
HD non catalytic head pipes
B&E Superflow 2'' mufflers
Stock cams

I used stock cal as base cal to develop VE with autotune basic. Maybe I did not spent enough time around 90-95 kPa columns of the 2.5k-2.75k rows to get valuable VE. I think I'going to tune my bike in Pyrenees Mountains with my wife behind to improve tunning in this area of the map.

[wurk_truk]

Can't you review histograms to be certain where you are collecting data with Pv?

Mountain riding is THE best spot to collect data, but I think you should learn how to view histograms .

Don't forget to some nice long decels coming downhill. 

[hdmanillac]

What do you mean by histograms ? Do you mean Hit Count ?

[wurk_truk]

Yes.  There will be somekind of screen where you can visually SEE how many hits you are making in each area you are trying to tune.  What you want to do is learn how to ride, (hills, etc.,) that makes the most hit counts in ALL areas.  With your bike, being it's Lambda, right?  You should be able to hit each and every cell with lots of data, because data collected is everything.  The more data, the more you can be certain the VEs are dialed in better.

Working the heck out of the bike to gather as much data, for VEs, is THE most important thing to get the hang of while street tuning.  You really do want EVERY Delta to have less than a 5% change between runs before even considering moving to timing, etc.  And, you want to have that kind of 5% or less changes a couple times, too.  Not just once.  If you think you are done collecting data for VEs...  go do it a couple more times for the fun of it... you will be surprised.

[hdmanillac]

Ok, may be the problem is here. Because I've done only 4 sessions of 45 minutes each covering a maximum of cells but not all.

[joe_lyons]

Give this map a try and then do some good logging and see how it does.

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[hdmanillac]

Ok Thanks. I'll try this map that is very closed to the last évolution I've done myself.

Nearly the same on AFR

And I put 1,15 on AE multiplier.

 

For throttle blade, how did you do that ? And for VE did you use smooth function or something else ?

[joe_lyons]

The throttle blade control is something that I have learned from a good teacher and I did do the smooth function to the whole map and then did my own interpolation. i love that smooth function, I like to copy/paste from other tuning programs and the copy/paste it back.

[FLTRI]

...i love that smooth function, I like to copy/paste from other tuning programs and the copy/paste it back.

Joe,
Can you elaborate on this technique please?
Bob

[joe_lyons]

Sure.   I have a tts file that i will copy the whole ve table to the pv software setup for th same format.  Then highlight the whole map or peak/valley areas and then right click, smooth, copy then paste back to tts.

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[joe_lyons]

One smooth.

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[hrdtail78]

Is that for OL tunes you do that for?

[joe_lyons]

Change with one smooth.

[joe_lyons]

Is that for OL tunes you do that for?

mainly just closed loop. I use it mainly for getting rid of sharp peaks and valleys and making a "smoother" transition where needed.  I dont always do this to the whole map but in areas that need attention.

[hrdtail78]

Won't the VE be pulled back once the O2's come on line?

[Ken R]

Can't you review histograms to be certain where you are collecting data with Pv?

Mountain riding is THE best spot to collect data, but I think you should learn how to view histograms .

Don't forget to some nice long decels coming downhill.

Unless new firmware that I  haven't tried yet has it, I don't believe you can look at a histogram to see which cells filled and how many hits.  It displays on the little screen as your riding, but I never found a way to transfer that screen  to a computer for later review.   I always wanted to see the VE Delta and relate it to hits during my tuning to see how much good data I got.


New firmware was released in late October, but I haven't done any tuning since before that. 

[rbabos]

Won't the VE be pulled back once the O2's come on line?

They could also be moved along in the right direction to speed things up, couldn't they? I seem to recall some success by trying this.
Ron

[joe_lyons]

Won't the VE be pulled back once the O2's come on line?

Sometimes yes sometimes no. Just depends where you smooth it.  It has worked for me before to be able to show me the where spikes in the map are at be it low or high.

[ColoSpgsMark]

I've used smoothing after a few collection runs, then smooth in the range that I know I can hit again, and then do some follow-on collections. I think it does speed up the process a little and the result is a slightly smoother VE map and running motor.  Some call BS, but it seems to work fine.  I would not smooth as the final stage though.

[hrdtail78]

I'm not calling BS.  I'll blend the cells after generating a new cal.  I'll do it each time, and you can see how one cell does affect the other.  After mapping the VE's and timing with outside source.  I Vtune the area the bike is going to run CL.  Along with the EGR tables.  It does make for a smooth, responsive runner.   

Edited to add:  Blending means outside the area of my data collection.

[wurk_truk]

As of yet, I am a bit leery of too much smoothing.  If the smoothing takes this out of 'happy ECM" range, the AFVs will come into play to bring it back in line.  NOT a good thing at all.

I like manually smoothing, for now, because I can readily see if something is out of whack.  Too much AFV effect will make the tune go sour later. One can tell really easily if this is happening by clearing the AFVs or reloading the exact same tune into the bike.  If it immediately runs crisper, the AFVs are killing the bike, because the VEs are out of whack.

It is NOT about a 'pretty' graph.  Remember that that 'graph' does NOT exists inside of our ECMs.  Sometimes there WILL be a need for a cell to be 'out of range' looking, when it really IS on the money.  EG:  remember that 60 map cell isn't only 60, it encompasses all the way from like 54 to 65 MAP, AND... the row above and below too.  What we SEE is just an HMI for us Humans to 'see' whats happening.  EGR will have different effects even when using the various EGR tools.

I need to play with this a bit more.  I am basically leery of just about ANY automated task.  But...  I plan to get over this, one-by-one as I try different things:  Direct link 'auto fill"; TTS timing tools; 'smoothing' VEs; etc.

I, myself, will now try this smoothing automation because Mark and Joe says it works well.  Now I assume me and Jason will try it all out too.

Mark?  DIYers CAN teach, too.  So hang in there, Mark.  This IS a GREAT site.  THE best TUNING site anywhere.

[Sam45]

Can't you review histograms to be certain where you are collecting data with Pv?

Mountain riding is THE best spot to collect data, but I think you should learn how to view histograms .

Don't forget to some nice long decels coming downhill.

Unless new firmware that I  haven't tried yet has it, I don't believe you can look at a histogram to see which cells filled and how many hits.  It displays on the little screen as your riding, but I never found a way to transfer that screen  to a computer for later review.   I always wanted to see the VE Delta and relate it to hits during my tuning to see how much good data I got.


New firmware was released in late October, but I haven't done any tuning since before that.

Not a histogram per se!  But What I do is save my data log runs and they run them in Log Tuner you can see how many hits in what cells VEs Timing etc.  I hit print screen key and save the screen shots.  I can go back any time and look at VE hit count for front, rear and look at timing tables. 

[rbabos]

As of yet, I am a bit leery of too much smoothing.  If the smoothing takes this out of 'happy ECM" range, the AFVs will come into play to bring it back in line.  NOT a good thing at all.

I like manually smoothing, for now, because I can readily see if something is out of whack.  Too much AFV effect will make the tune go sour later. One can tell really easily if this is happening by clearing the AFVs or reloading the exact same tune into the bike.  If it immediately runs crisper, the AFVs are killing the bike, because the VEs are out of whack.

It is NOT about a 'pretty' graph.  Remember that that 'graph' does NOT exists inside of our ECMs.  Sometimes there WILL be a need for a cell to be 'out of range' looking, when it really IS on the money.  EG:  remember that 60 map cell isn't only 60, it encompasses all the way from like 54 to 65 MAP, AND... the row above and below too.  What we SEE is just an HMI for us Humans to 'see' whats happening.  EGR will have different effects even when using the various EGR tools.

I need to play with this a bit more.  I am basically leery of just about ANY automated task.  But...  I plan to get over this, one-by-one as I try different things:  Direct link 'auto fill"; TTS timing tools; 'smoothing' VEs; etc.

I, myself, will now try this smoothing automation because Mark and Joe says it works well.  Now I assume me and Jason will try it all out too.

Mark?  DIYers CAN teach, too.  So hang in there, Mark.  This IS a GREAT site.  THE best TUNING site anywhere.

Not that I know much but eventually I started to look at it as a 4 block unit in say a given rpm/kpa zone. Otherwords DIYer open loop low end tuning if I felt if one ve area needed some attention, all next cells left right, above and below got some attention as well. Don't know, but it seemed I got more effect this way. I call it block tuning.
Ron

[FLTRI]

As I understand:
If a bike is properly tuned and in closed loop operation, changing the VE values will return to where they were prior to the "forced" VE changes...wherever the bike is run in the changed areas.
That said, smoothing VEs in open loop operation will remain unchanged.
Bob