Power Vision questions

[rbabos]

As I understand:
If a bike is properly tuned and in closed loop operation, changing the VE values will return to where they were prior to the "forced" VE changes...wherever the bike is run in the changed areas.
That said, smoothing VEs in open loop operation will remain unchanged.
Bob

It seems some cals have some spikes in them as delivered. If smoothed prior to tuning it would seem more of a natural starting point. Then let the vtune accept or change it as the tune progresses. Don't see the harm in it and there could be some gain. A lot depends on how the cal was done prior to loading it and what caused the spikes since each engine is different.
Ron

[ToBeFrank]

Not that I know much but eventually I started to look at it as a 4 block unit in say a given rpm/kpa zone. Otherwords DIYer open loop low end tuning if I felt if one ve area needed some attention, all next cells left right, above and below got some attention as well. Don't know, but it seemed I got more effect this way. I call it block tuning.

A 4 block unit is indeed the correct way to think about it. This is why spreadsheet tuning will never work as well as an algorithm written for the task. You are never in a single cell. You're always influencing 4 cells for every sample.

[FLTRI]

This is why spreadsheet tuning will never work as well as an algorithm written for the task. You are never in a single cell. You're always influencing 4 cells for every sample.

Most riding involves constant load transitions which makes block (spreadsheet) tuning work fairly well?
What's the down side?
What doesn't work as well?
Bob

[hdmanillac]

Hello guys,

Some news of my bike. This morning, I've done 2 logs of 25 minutes with the Joe Lyons VE on the attached cal rev 4.

Here is the result. Significant improvement in term of Front cyl spark knock

[attach=0]

My feeling is that the bike is more punchy when overtaking cars on small roads. Great improvement today.

Thank you all.

Joe I'm really impressed by your smooth function.





[attachment removed after 60 days by system]

[mayor]

Joe I'm really impressed by your smooth function.

he didn't just smooth, he fixed your heavy load ve tables where the holes were.  you can probably start adding back in some of the timing you pulled out now.   

[hdmanillac]

That's what I've already done. And the PVLogTuner screen above is the result.

[joe_lyons]

Thanks and your welcome.  You always wana make sure you have 6r12 spark plugs and stock wires also when relying on ion sense also but that kind of spark retard event things look good.

[strokerjlk]

That's what I've already done. And the PVLogTuner screen above is the result.

did you generate a new ve in those areas? or did you just do spark data logging?
smoothing is ok to get you closer,but by no means a replacement for actually hitting the areas.
if you have spark data there,you should also be able get ve hits there.

[hdmanillac]

No, no new VE. I did this log with the VE provided by Joe. An I've done a simple log without Autotune or a specific datalog cal.

To get the spark knock analysis I only use PVLog Tuner with a pvv file generated with the Joe cal, and the log obtained as described above.

[joe_lyons]

Go out and do a basic "auto-adjust" and see how things change from there to see where your O2 sensors are taking you.  And then you can compare the before and after from the smoothed map to the adjusted one.

[hdmanillac]

Ok I'll do that.

[joe_lyons]

What was your rhyme or reason for your spark tables on the decell and idle area?

[hdmanillac]

I put the stock spark tables back because they are more efficient at heavy loads. But they are also designed with low advance at iddle. As AFR is reacher than stock at iddle on this cal, I think 24 ° advance would be better than 16°. I need to improve this area even if everything seems to be ok now. But I guess this summer, heat will build up at iddle if I let 16° instead of 24°.

[strokerjlk]

I put the stock spark tables back because they are more efficient at heavy loads. But they are also designed with low advance at iddle. As AFR is reacher than stock at iddle on this cal, I think 24 ° advance would be better than 16°. I need to improve this area even if everything seems to be ok now. But I guess this summer, heat will build up at iddle if I let 16° instead of 24°.

Have you looked at the ve diff between 16deg and 24 deg at idle?
20 deg would be fine IMO .
The rest of the timing is a little aggressive . even after you get the ve's correct, your going to see a few areas pull timing here and there . Expecially if your doing data runs and trying to make it ping . But your knock activity isn't that bad now actually .

[hdmanillac]

So, I'm just coming back from 2 log sessions.

The 1st one is a basic auto-adjust to see where o2 sensors are taking VE.

The 2nd one is a simple log with the tuned cal and 25% in AE mulitplier instead of 20%.

First, I must say that the bike hasn't run so well since I started tweaking  the Stage 1 one year ago... 

Heavy loads when accelerating are very pleasant now. 

Ping seems to be ok now but maybe it would be reasonnable to put a safety margin...

[attach=0] [attach=1]

Attached are the tuned cal (altered by Joe) and the same after a basic auto-adjust.

for Iddle Spark Advance, I think 20° would be nice, better then 16°.




[attachment removed after 60 days by system]

[strokerjlk]

Ping seems to be ok now but maybe it would be reasonnable to put a safety margin...

you could take a couple deg out and be fine. looks good
might even smooth it out a little more.do you get any buzz in the floorboards now?

[hdmanillac]

No, no buzz in the floorboards. Everything seems to be ok.

[Ozbob]

Just tried to marry my PV to 07 Dyna. Initially it would not marry or read ECM.
Scratched the head for a bit, reinstalled stock map .MTE with my TTS and then lo n behold the PV married up to my bike.
Is this normal, PV would not recognise the MT7 file at all. My understanding was the PV would read any map that was in the ECM.
Basically, PV would not function as intended with MT7 map installed.

[Scotty]

Just tried to marry my PV to 07 Dyna. Initially it would not marry or read ECM.
Scratched the head for a bit, reinstalled stock map .MTE with my TTS and then lo n behold the PV married up to my bike.
Is this normal, PV would not recognise the MT7 file at all. My understanding was the PV would read any map that was in the ECM.
Basically, PV would not function as intended with MT7 map installed.

If you used v1.60 or above of the TTS software to write the MT7 files then that is why the PV would not work as the ECM is locked.
Writing the MTE file back unlocked it.
If you write the ECM with v1.57 of below of the TTS software the PV would have read it.

[Ozbob]

Ahhh! I see, sort of, lol. I'm using V1.6.1.
I created myself a bit of havoc for a while, stock map reinstall failed and wiped the ECM. Got it sorted though.
Shame the TTS will overwrite anything that is in the ECM but the PV won't. Until I get a map that's close for my latest incarnation of the 120, I gotta keep going back to my last TTS tune to get the thing to even start. Bit messy to start with.
Another question, PV tables max at 6000-6500 rpm, What happens if/when an engine goes beyond, say 7000-7500 rpm. I know not a lot/most engines will not rev that high, but some do, depends on what application the engine was built for.
Does the ECM just use last known parameters???

[Scotty]

Ahhh! I see, sort of, lol. I'm using V1.6.1.
I created myself a bit of havoc for a while, stock map reinstall failed and wiped the ECM. Got it sorted though.
Shame the TTS will overwrite anything that is in the ECM but the PV won't. Until I get a map that's close for my latest incarnation of the 120, I gotta keep going back to my last TTS tune to get the thing to even start. Bit messy to start with.
Another question, PV tables max at 6000-6500 rpm, What happens if/when an engine goes beyond, say 7000-7500 rpm. I know not a lot/most engines will not rev that high, but some do, depends on what application the engine was built for.
Does the ECM just use last known parameters???

The PV maps I am looking at all go to 8000rpm for the spark advance.................am I missing something here?
Just realised that I was looking at a 2012 Dyna Map and your are loading a 2007 Dyna map.................... 

Can you put your MT7 file back in with v1.57 and read the ECM again? (If so then you will understand why TTS lock the ECM to stop this from happening now)
Not having a PV here to play with full time limits what I know.
Also found a couple of 2012 Dyna maps with Active Exhaust & Active Intake control so that is available.

[Ozbob]

I do have a real early version, 1.4, but I'm onto the reasons now, cheers.
Yeah I see the 2012 maps have 8k rpm worth of spark, but still only 6.5k rpm of VE adjustment.
07-11 maps have only 6k rpm f spark and 6.5k rpm of VE adjustment. I would like to see at least 7k rpm for all tables.
Any idea what happens when the engine exceeds those rpm limits?

[Scotty]

I do have a real early version, 1.4, but I'm onto the reasons now, cheers.
Yeah I see the 2012 maps have 8k rpm worth of spark, but still only 6.5k rpm of VE adjustment.
07-11 maps have only 6k rpm f spark and 6.5k rpm of VE adjustment. I would like to see at least 7k rpm for all tables.
Any idea what happens when the engine exceeds those rpm limits?

No I would not like to guess either you might need to ask Dynojet about that one.

[Ozbob]

Have emailed the question to DJ, will wait n see.
Anybody else out there think the 07-11 maps could use another 1000rpm at the top end of all tuneable tables. I mean, 6000 rpm of spark can't be enough, my last WOT dyno run went to 6500, rev limit is set at 6750.
Or am I missing something completely here?

[Ozbob]

I have PE disabled normally.
So, you sayin the ECM will use last known parameters(VE,Spark) to run above tabled RPM limit?