Power Vision questions

[Durwood]

If I move forward and it won't save it, then I need to load my MTE, then proceed with the marring/map loading process of PV?

It would be nice if I could start with my existing cal, the bike runs great, I would just like to be able to change mufflers without a complete tune..

I started with my TTS tune.  I hand entered it into powervision via my desktop computer, cell by cell, table by table.  There were some differences in cells, but not so much that I couldn't extrapolate to approximate the cell contents.  Took 2 or 3 hours of tedium; but got it done. 


Then I did tuning runs.  The tune wasn't far off from what PV said it liked.  Since then, I've done a dozen or so tuning runs.  I think my motorcycle is running rather well.  Starts easily, good gas mileage, etc. 


Ken

I am looking forward to learning this thing,   I am a Carb tuner, just gotta find where they hid the jets..

[Durwood]

Oh yeah, Thanks Jim "Stroker" for the fast track to tuning 101 class..

[07heri]

Has anyone figured out how to lower the idle for doing auto tunes?  I'm working with a 176 cal and it seems 900 is the lowest idle.  I tried to drop it to 800 in the settings but it reverts back automatically to the default 900.  Is everyone finding 900 sufficient?

Also, when the green hit screen is in datalog mode it shows the hits fine.  BUT, there isn't a 750 row.  There's a blank row above 1000 but it doesn't say 750 to the left of the row, nor does it never populate any hits in that row.  Is one to assume that there's no data being collected and used to tune the idle area below 1000 rpm's? 

Just curious how the idle area gets tuned.  It seems strange to see nothing happening in the 750 row.  What happens when your idle is set at lets say 950 or when you take off and drop below 1000 rpm's?   

[hrdtail78]

If the row isn't there. The program is defaulting to the row it has.  Also if it doesn't have that row to collect in. It isn't going to matter if you can get that low.  Kind of?   I have seen differences where EGR tables can have an effect areas that might be higher depending on where I collect the data. Meaning that collecting at 68kpa might reach into the 70kpa row more than filling that block at 62kpa.  BLM area is there is the saving grace.  Meaning that this is a way I have seen AFR "hidden" tables working for our good.

[VDeuce]

There is a pv setting for min collection rpm. Just saw it tonight. I believe it is a pv setting, not a per map setting. It was set default to 900. I changed to 750.

[joe_lyons]

I don't like the idea of setting the idle low.  Think about it most of the time if you hit 750-900 it is going to be a higher kpa or some % of throttle so collecting it at low kpa or 0 throttle % is kinda pointless.  If you wana collect the 750-950 area put the bike in 2nd and use your brake and clutch to mess with kpa or how much throttle you apply.  Then you get those short take off areas that are harder to record.

[hrdtail78]

Slow take off will see the 750 in the 50 and 60 kpa area.  The Delphi ECM is still collecting and making changes to this area. Adjusting it and recording with a tuning device is another story.

[07heri]

There is a pv setting for min collection rpm. Just saw it tonight. I believe it is a pv setting, not a per map setting. It was set default to 900. I changed to 750.

Did you go back and look to see if it stayed at 750?  I change it to 800...save it...go back and look and it's right back to 900.

[07heri]

If the row isn't there. The program is defaulting to the row it has.  Also if it doesn't have that row to collect in. It isn't going to matter if you can get that low.  Kind of?   I have seen differences where EGR tables can have an effect areas that might be higher depending on where I collect the data. Meaning that collecting at 68kpa might reach into the 70kpa row more than filling that block at 62kpa.  BLM area is there is the saving grace.  Meaning that this is a way I have seen AFR "hidden" tables working for our good.

The row of boxes, just like the other rpm's, is there but the number 750 isnt there.  Row 2 starts at 1000.  It starts counting hits at the 1000 row.  If it doesnt collect in the 750 row what should we be doing to fill in the ve's in the 750 rpm row?  Make them a little lower than 1000?  Make them the same as the 1000 row.  Just looking for some clarification as to where the VE's in the 750 row come from. 

[strokerjlk]

I don't like the idea of setting the idle low.  Think about it most of the time if you hit 750-900 it is going to be a higher kpa or some % of throttle so collecting it at low kpa or 0 throttle % is kinda pointless

You could try and hit 6000 rpm 2% t/p and 30 kpa also.
pointless though .

[mayor]

I don't like the idea of setting the idle low.  Think about it most of the time if you hit 750-900 it is going to be a higher kpa or some % of throttle so collecting it at low kpa or 0 throttle % is kinda pointless

You could try and hit 6000 rpm 2% t/p and 30 kpa also.
pointless though .

I disagree with you guys.  Since all surrounding cells work together to establish the values used, I think that all surrounding cells should have data collected if at all possible while tuning.   Say for instance if the bike is idling at 920 rpm at 38 kpa under normal conditions (once idle is adjusted for non tuning reasons), then the ecm is pulling data from the 750 rpm row at 30 kPa and 40 kPa columns as well as the 1000 rpm row at the 30 kPa and 40 kPa columns while at normal idle.  I would not advocate using a idle that low during extended use (for oiling reasons), but I don't think it's a bad idea to to do this briefly for data collection purposes.   

[hrdtail78]

Exactly mayor.  Collecting data just outside of the normal riding area. Makes for a better normal riding area.  BLM's, AFR, whatever vision wants to label it. This is how the Delphi system works. It uses info from surrounding cells.

It's easy to see if you have the 750 row. Take the 750 row down to 30. Collect CL data at normal idle. Make note of how normal idle VE's went up? 

Hopefully Vision comes out with an update that will show the 750 row.

[07heri]

Again, if the hit screen isn't showing data being collected in the 750 row what ve's should be manually put in the 750 row of the cal?
I agree with my mayor.  I've always understood that the ECM looks at surrounding cells.  Well, if the PV isn't correcting the cells ABOVE 1000 what is the procedure to manually adjust those cells? 

[rbabos]

Again, if the hit screen isn't showing data being collected in the 750 row what ve's should be manually put in the 750 row of the cal?
I agree with my mayor.  I've always understood that the ECM looks at surrounding cells.  Well, if the PV isn't correcting the cells ABOVE 1000 what is the procedure to manually adjust those cells?

1-2 points below what the 1000 cells are below it. It really isn't all that critical as some make it out to be.
Ron

[joe_lyons]

If you really wanted you can manually do it.  If at 30 kpa at 1000rpm it is 40 and 750 rpm is 20 then make the 750 35 to 40 and you should be fine.  I know most of the time my bike and most spend more time at a hair above 1000rpm than below it very much and so I don't worry about the 750 spot at 30kpa b/c yes the ecm blends between cells but I see it as percentages and so at 1050 rpm the 750 rpm spot has little to no affect on the ve look up table.

[hrdtail78]

Again, if the hit screen isn't showing data being collected in the 750 row what ve's should be manually put in the 750 row of the cal?
I agree with my mayor.  I've always understood that the ECM looks at surrounding cells.  Well, if the PV isn't correcting the cells ABOVE 1000 what is the procedure to manually adjust those cells?

1-2 points below what the 1000 cells are below it. It really isn't all that critical as some make it out to be.
Ron

..and you have gleemed this info how?  Critical?  No, the bike isn't going to blow up.  Is it something that can be done for smoother off idle transition to get bike rolling?  You bet.  Looking at data collected with other tuner that allow you to replay the histogram will/ can show you what rpm's you hit.  Histogram can be played back on any data.  Not just vtune.

Again, if the hit screen isn't showing data being collected in the 750 row what ve's should be manually put in the 750 row of the cal?
I agree with my mayor.  I've always understood that the ECM looks at surrounding cells.  Well, if the PV isn't correcting the cells ABOVE 1000 what is the procedure to manually adjust those cells? 

I am not familiar enough with the Vision to say.  My reasoning for having a horse in this is. I know I brought it up in your other thread to do this.  Really wasn't trying to send you on a goose hunt.  I was confused on what tuner you are using.  I am sure somebody with more Vision usage than me can point you in the right direction.

[hrdtail78]

If you really wanted you can manually do it.  If at 30 kpa at 1000rpm it is 40 and 750 rpm is 20 then make the 750 35 to 40 and you should be fine.  I know most of the time my bike and most spend more time at a hair above 1000rpm than below it very much and so I don't worry about the 750 spot at 30kpa b/c yes the ecm blends between cells but I see it as percentages and so at 1050 rpm the 750 rpm spot has little to no affect on the ve look up table.

I'm talking more of 40,50, and 60 kpa area's.  The 750 below idle?  I agree with what your saying.

[ToBeFrank]

If you really wanted you can manually do it.  If at 30 kpa at 1000rpm it is 40 and 750 rpm is 20 then make the 750 35 to 40 and you should be fine.  I know most of the time my bike and most spend more time at a hair above 1000rpm than below it very much and so I don't worry about the 750 spot at 30kpa b/c yes the ecm blends between cells but I see it as percentages and so at 1050 rpm the 750 rpm spot has little to no affect on the ve look up table.

If you have a 750 and 1000 row, and you're at 1050 rpm, the 750 row has zero effect.

[rbabos]

quote hrdtail78  "..and you have gleemed this info how? "
With my magical powers of course.
Ron

[07heri]

Here's my point guys.  TTS:  it's common knowledge and practice to drop the rpm's down to 800 to dial in those areas.  Then set it back to 1000, or whatever you prefer, when finished VTuning.  Is there no reason behind this?  Why is it so common to be told to do this if, like some are saying, it's pointless.

Now we have a new player on the block.  Retailer sends out canned map set below 1000 rpms at idle.  Yet, the device doesn't collect data in that area.  The numbers in the canned map had to come from somewhere. 

Even with the idle set at 1000.  I have yet to see one sit there and idle at 1000 rpm's steady as a rock. 

It just seems like there's no consistency in the answers.  With one device it's a recommended process to lower the idle during VTunes.  Another device doesn't seem to function this way.  Some here say it doesn't matter.  Same say it does matter.  Is there no technically correct answer to this?     

[joe_lyons]

U got it.  10 diff tuners 10 diff answers. 

[mayor]

I agree with Joe.  I think that unless one tuner was trained by another tuner, each tuner has their own thought process on tuning.  One important thing to note is that all the flash tuners (TTS, PV, DL, SEPST, etc) are really only just allowing us to access the tables in the Delphi ECM.  If I understood Steve Cole correctly a few years ago, the segmentation of columns and rows for the ve tables were something that was added by the tuning systems and is not necessarily how the inter workings of the Delphi system is.  That could explain why one system handles the VE tables differently than another.  Maybe tobefrank could comment on whether I understand correctly. 

Here's my point guys.  TTS:  it's common knowledge and practice to drop the rpm's down to 800 to dial in those areas.  Then set it back to 1000, or whatever you prefer, when finished VTuning.  Is there no reason behind this?  Why is it so common to be told to do this if, like some are saying, it's pointless.

I think there is a few schools of thought here.  One is the folks that don't think there is much difference in engine airflow characteristics at 750 rpm as there is at 1,000 rpm's. They feel that close enough, is close enough since the built in afr sensor feedback of the closed loop system will bring the sampled afr in line with what is desired anyway.  Second is the folks that move the ve values/afr table values around to establish a desired afr value at a fixed rpm point, and then take the closed loop function out of the equation.  Third is the OCD types that want the most accurate air mapping of the engine as you can get to avoid potential closed loop operation issues.  I fit into the OCD type.    I'm sure there are more, but those are likely why so many different answers.   

It just seems like there's no consistency in the answers.  With one device it's a recommended process to lower the idle during VTunes.  Another device doesn't seem to function this way.  Some here say it doesn't matter.  Same say it does matter.  Is there no technically correct answer to this?   

welcome to tuning.  when it comes to idle, I think the only true technically correct answer is does the bike idle smoothly and does it idle an a manner that doesn't build up excessive heat.  If you managed to get those two things right, then the idle is likely fine.  If the at idle the engine continues to "search" then you haven't dialed in the tuning parameters close enough.  When it comes down to it, there is only two variables you are working with (timing and fuel pulsewidth), but there seems to be a dozen or so ways of adjusting them.    

[rbabos]

Here's my take on the missing 750 table. It has to be there . At normal idle and below the 750 table does little so don't worry about it. If in autotune mode place load on the engine with clutch and drag the engine down to 750 without moving the throttle. This will pick up the kap area right of normal idle. Now same procedure keep the 750 rpm but add a touch more throttle , ride the clutch as to not allow the engine to go past 750. This will hit more areas of higher load kpa areas in 750.
If the table is there which it is or the engine wouldn't run, it should also autotune this area in the background even if not visible. Export the tune and continue on with what you can see.
This should give decent values in the 750 higher kpa areas for getting the bike moving at slow rpms and transition to normal idle. A good hill, or wheel up against the wall gets it done for me.
In the end, you will know if it's right or not. The engine will tell you.
Ron

[hrdtail78]

IMO  If you have a tuner that will allow you to collect data in this area, and you have a good, safe way to collect the data.  Why not take the five minutes to do so.  I have a surge bank and voltage conditioner for my theta controller so my brake is smooth and doesn't hunt.  I like to perform this with a brake on the cool side.  I like the whole bike warmed up and engine temp around 200.  I also have control over this.  The build also comes into play.  Some don't get this treatment.  On the couple of trikes I have tuned on the street.  I just do several take offs in second gear.  The stage 1 hit these cell nicely and the Tman 107 build didn't drop the RPMs long enough to get great data.

Where these numbers come from?  Either the stock cal or the guy that sent the cal came up with them however.  Doesn't matter to me.  Since VE's are a representation of the airflow through the engine.  I like to get as much data collected for VE input as I can with the parts I am tuning.  Different exhaust, injectors, cams.....  Same recipe of a build will give different VE's.  OCD?  Maybe.  I also have to look at the fact of.  The customer brought it to me for a full tune.  Not just mapping VE's.  It was brought to me because of the equipment I have and my knowledge of using that equipment.  I have read a lot of different tuning strategies on smooth idle.  Some play with timing, some believe the CT spark table need to match main table for smooth idle.  I have gotton there many, many times on the fuel side of things.

Mayor brings up a great point that I believe is forgotton or isn't kept at the front.  With all the inputs into the ECM.  Bottom line is.  The only outputs it has is.  Where to makes spark, and how long to hold injector open.  The ECM doesn't have VE tables.  That is our user interface.

....and if you don't do it exactly like me.  It just means you have a different way.  Not better, worse or wrong.  Differnet.  Explain it.  How and why, back it up with good data.  I always keep an open mind.

HFT.

[ToBeFrank]

If I understood Steve Cole correctly a few years ago, the segmentation of columns and rows for the ve tables were something that was added by the tuning systems and is not necessarily how the inter workings of the Delphi system is.  That could explain why one system handles the VE tables differently than another.  Maybe tobefrank could comment on whether I understand correctly.

The values in the axes are known as breakpoints. In the ECM, a table such as the VE table is actually three tables. There is one table for the horizontal axis breakpoints (for a VE table, that would be the TPS or MAP values), one table for the vertical axis breakpoints (for a VE table, that would be the RPM values), and one table for the values (for a VE table, that would be the VE values). Tuning systems didn't add this functionality, it was always there in the ECM. They're just changing the values, just like you're doing when you modify the VE values. There's no technical reason the tuning software couldn't add these tables to the interface to allow you to set whatever breakpoints you want.