Powervision over TTS

[DeneFLHR]

I purchased the TTS earlier this season and had a perfect dyno tune conducted on my bike. Ran great until I changed the mufflers for a more sedate and quieter pair. Now it lost  torque and horsepower, and has a horrid surge around town with a missing idle that clatters the primary chain at times. Since I am not anywhere near mechanically inclined, if I got a Powervision could I make the bike run reasonable without expensive trips to the dyno when I decide to change a part or two? Are Powervisions married to the bike and can only be used once on one bike like the TTS? There are some popping up on eBay but are they useless if they've been used once to program another bike? Thanks in advance.

[Tsani]

To the best of my knowledge, the PV marries itself to your bike but I read that They will unlock it for $225.00. However that may not be in effect now. Both the PV and the TTS are good units. But you have the TTS right now. Read  up on it and run a couple of V-Tunes on your bike. Plenty of help here when folks ain't bickering.

[mayor]

The Power Vision marries to the bike, just like TTS. 

TTS can be used as often as you want on the bike that the VCI (dongle) is married too, it's not a one time shot.  if you have TTS now and you have a bike with factory o2 sensors, then I would go with what Tsani suggested and do a couple of vtune to see if you can make the bike run better.   

[Jamie Long]

The best advice I can give you is to choose the product that the individual doing the tuning is most comfortable tuning with. Both products are very capable and go about things slightly different, both also marry to the ECM. Truthfully if you already had the bike dyno tuned and all you have changed is the mufflers you should be able to get it pretty easily tuned in with your current product with not much effort as long as you have a computer with basic skills, the software and cable kit, and a saved copy of your current calibration, you will likely find this forum a big help as well. If you decide to go the other direction and would like more info on Power Vision you are always welcome to contact us.

[DeneFLHR]

Thanks Tsani. Everytime I open up the TTS program on my computer my head hurts so I can tell you that trying to run V-tunes will just make it worse if I'm at the helm 

[Coyote]

I think the PV unlocks are $199 but you might check with Jamie at Fuel Moto on that. But since you already have a tuner, I'd give that a try before I spent more money.

What changes did you make to your bike? What did you have before, what do you have now?

[hrdtail78]

Put the other ones back on.

[hrdtail78]

You put more restrictive pipes on it.  It should be running richer.  According to some.  This has to be better.  That's only an internet truth and not the whole truth.

If you already have the TTS, you will gain nothing with a vision. 

[DeneFLHR]

I think the PV unlocks are $199 but you might check with Jamie at Fuel Moto on that. But since you already have a tuner, I'd give that a try before I spent more money.

What changes did you make to your bike? What did you have before, what do you have now?

Hey Coyote, I got it tuned with Rush true duals and Jackpot 4" dyno tuned slip ons with 2" baffles. Too loud so got a set of new SE Fatshotz with 2" baffles and went from anywhere from 4 discs to 15 and even tried closed end caps, (that was bad, zero power with closed). I sold the Jackpots a while ago which is alright because they were embarrassingly loud, tinny and sneezed upon decel.
I took it back to the tuner and he did a run again w/ Fatshotz, obviously same dyno and I lost 10tq and 5 hp. AFR is out to lunch. Amazing

[DeneFLHR]

You put more restrictive pipes on it.  It should be running richer.  According to some.  This has to be better.  That's only an internet truth and not the whole truth.

If you already have the TTS, you will gain nothing with a vision.

I would've thought that the Fatshotz are more restrictive because they are a lot quieter and deeper than the Jackpots. I have phoned the guys at Supertrapp several times asking their opinion as to why the power loss and they tell me to try different configurations, none seem different to my butt dyno and I can't afford to keep taking it back to the dyno. They insist the Fatshots are a very free flowing muffler, actually designed for the stock cat headpipe, so why the hp loss you would think they would provide more hp if they are so free flowing? I was thinking that with the PV I might be able to actually tune it because the TTS is very confusing to me but I'm not going to shell out that amount of money again. Thanks hrdtail78.

[strokerjlk]

you will find your AFR to be both rich and lean. it didn't just go rich in areas,it went lean as well in others.
it needs the ve's dialed back in .whatever tuner you decide on.
its all about the characteristics of the exhaust. it will work better now in some areas and some not as well in others.
a few areas might be the same,if the two exhausts work exactly the same in the exact same rpm/tp/kpa. not very many though.
basically you need to get busy

[1FSTRK]

Before you "shell out that amount of money" for a new tuning device, you may want to take a look at their software and instructions to make sure it also does not make you're head hurt.

[wolf_59]

Thats the thing about TTS, PV, T-MAX and any other real tuning device unless you are committed to learn how to use the product you are going to need a dyno tune or a freind that can use the product every time that you make changes
I had the same issues when reading the V-Tune instructions my head would start spinning until I quit reading them and just started following the steps, thats when it got easy

[DeneFLHR]

Thats the thing about TTS, PV, T-MAX and any other real tuning device unless you are committed to learn how to use the product you are going to need a dyno tune or a freind that can use the product every time that you make changes
I had the same issues when reading the V-Tune instructions my head would start spinning until I quit reading them and just started following the steps, thats when it got easy

Good words of wisdom. I had no idea that doing such a small change would throw the tune out so much. I wish I could post the before / after of the AFR graph. I was talking with someone yesterday who has had the T-Max on two different bikes and that isn't the answer to everything also he said. Still nothing compared to a good dyno tune but who can afford that more than once.

[FLTRI]

Dene,
The cheapest way out to a good running bike is to return the exhauist to what it was tuned for. Earplugs work.

Any other option requires a retune and buying into ads that indicate all you need to do is write the check and the system does the tuning for you...is simply BS. If it were true there would be no need for dyno tuners.

Bob

[1FSTRK]

It is funny some people will buy new parts time after time and if they want to change to a new part they will think nothing of buying again. It can be for more power or a different look or sound.
Ask them to pay a man for his services and you would think you asked for their first born child.
I think all new parts should have $400.00 added to their list price and come with a free tune. People would buy them anyway but they would stop obsessing over or leaving  out the most important step of the installation.

[FLTRI]

It is funny some people will buy new parts time after time and if they want to change to a new part they will think nothing of buying again. It can be for more power or a different look or sound.
Ask them to pay a man for his services and you would think you asked for their first born child.
I think all new parts should have $400.00 added to their list price and come with a free tune. People would buy them anyway but they would stop obsessing over or leaving  out the most important step of the installation.

Thank you! Great marketing strategy too!
Bob

[07heri]

I wouldn't mind paying a guy if he was competent.  But it seems finding competent tuners is the chore.  Geez I cant even find someone that has heard of TTS, never mind tune the bike.  I like most of what TTS can do but without a good tuner around it's alot of money spent that isn't being used. 

Point being, if you buy a tuning device because it's touted as being the best thing since sliced bread, but you can't find a tuner that uses it, you screwed yourself.   I think the smart thing for someone to do is first find a good reputable tuner.  Find out what he uses to tune and go with that.  I love the TTS for the options but I don't think I will ever get a great tune doing VTune runs and relying on the crappy o2 sensor set up.  Thus, I would have been better off finding a good tuner and running what device he uses.  The homebrew tuners are good to get by but nothing better than a good tune from someone that really knows what he's doing.  I guess it all depends on what someone thinks is "good enough" for a tune.

[tdkkart]

Point being, if you buy a tuning device because it's touted as being the best thing since sliced bread, but you can't find a tuner that uses it, you screwed yourself.   I think the smart thing for someone to do is first find a good reputable tuner.  Find out what he uses to tune and go with that.  I love the TTS for the options but I don't think I will ever get a great tune doing VTune runs and relying on the crappy o2 sensor set up.  Thus, I would have been better off finding a good tuner and running what device he uses.  The homebrew tuners are good to get by but nothing better than a good tune from someone that really knows what he's doing.  I guess it all depends on what someone thinks is "good enough" for a tune.

So just what exactly do you think a "tuner" is using, other than a crappy o2 sensor setup??
I guarantee you that a LARGE majority of tuners are mis-using the equipment they have, which would explain why I continually get behind bikes that pop,fart,blow black smoke and won't get out of their own way.

[EGNBLUE]

I wouldn't mind paying a guy if he was competent.  But it seems finding competent tuners is the chore...

As the bike's owner, that IS your job.  If you needed eye surgery, would you not seek out the best surgeon?  There's probably no one that has any more of a vested interest in your eyes or bike then you!

There are far too many posts here that would suggest there are quite a few competent tuners around.  Now if they aren't conveniently located and getting to them is just a bit of a chore for you, then settle for mediocre and call it a day.

[DeneFLHR]

I was lucky in that respect, my tuner lived only an hour and a bit away down the freeway. He is as competent in the TTS realm as anybody and the bike blew me away when I rode it afterwards but in retrospect I should've made sure I was happy with the build before I took it to him. Like I said, I would've never thought that just changing something like the mufflers would have such an impact.

[wurk_truk]

Different mufflers will change the whole characteristics of how air moves in AND out of the engines.  Like Jim has said, this can really screw up your VEs.  Some will be close and some will be way ass out there.

I am GLAD you bit the bullet and obtained a decent tune!

I WILL tell you something...  getting a decent homebrew tune using TTS, SEPST, or PV takes work and dedication on a DIYer guys part.  My personal vote goes to TTS.  I also think if someone were to invest knowledge as a DIYer with the PV, that person would obtain similar results.

TMax is...  OK I feel, but I like the ability of the ECM to retain knock retard and TMax doesn't have that.

Now...  some out there, and they ARE fellow members, get caught up with a deal like the OP and the bike is running shitty.  THAT is NOT the time to learn your tuner.  OP, I would bet your head would NOT spin, if you were to start learning right now while the pressure is OFF.  The beauty of TTS and PV is for us DIYers that make changes to their bikes.   Having the ability to 'tune' ones bike is invaluable with the EFI systems we all use anymore.

There is no where better to learn TTS than right here on HTT.  Hopefully, Jamie, Iclick, etc will post more often over here, instead of HDF, and make HTT THE site to go to for PV tuning, too.

[wurk_truk]

I wouldn't mind paying a guy if he was competent.  But it seems finding competent tuners is the chore.  Geez I cant even find someone that has heard of TTS, never mind tune the bike.  I like most of what TTS can do but without a good tuner around it's alot of money spent that isn't being used. 

Point being, if you buy a tuning device because it's touted as being the best thing since sliced bread, but you can't find a tuner that uses it, you screwed yourself.   I think the smart thing for someone to do is first find a good reputable tuner.  Find out what he uses to tune and go with that.  I love the TTS for the options but I don't think I will ever get a great tune doing VTune runs and relying on the crappy o2 sensor set up.  Thus, I would have been better off finding a good tuner and running what device he uses.  The homebrew tuners are good to get by but nothing better than a good tune from someone that really knows what he's doing.  I guess it all depends on what someone thinks is "good enough" for a tune.

I think you are mistaken a bit here.  Sure, a tuner (if he is a fantastic tuner) WILL give me and a few others here a better tune than we could do ourselves.  But...  there is NO doubt in MY mind that Mayor and folks like him can equal what a run of the mill dyno guy can produce.  It REALLY is all about the amount of time one wishes to invest to learn, make mistakes, learn from the mistakes, and THEN come here to HTT and learn some more.

There are really only two ways to tune... use O2 sensors, or... do a four/five gas tunes.  BOTH have advantages and dis-advantages.  As far as narrow band-vs- widebands...  the narrow bands react way faster than wide bands, but the wide bands have a way ass better range to them.  Biggest issue to ANYONE using O2 sensors is the sensors need to be placed correctly, whether you are a Pro Tuner, like Jim, or a DIYer like me or Mayor...  that's the issue.

[HV]

There is no where better to learn TTS than right here on HTT. Hopefully, Jamie, Iclick, etc will post more often over here, instead of HDF, and make HTT THE site to go to for PV tuning, too.

Amen brother .....people have to realise that NO tuner is worth crap alone with out the person using it knowing what to to with it.....Just because to buy a TTS and load a map with it does not mean you will be able to have the top tune out there if you do not know how to use it..or know someone comfortable using it... same with a PV..your going to have a learing curve until its done... then add the Dyno guys that tune all the time and mix that with the back yard guy and its not a black and white simple deal... Just because a guy wants to use a PV does not make him any less passionate about his bike then a guy with a TTS ... Buy what you want BUT make sure you understand how to use it or have a buddy that does ...

Lets stop this BS every time someone wants info on a tuner other then a TTS .. not every one wants to use something if they know nothing about it or if they have a Buddy that is good with another tuner.. Help others by telling them how to use what they want...not why they are stupid for not using something they do not want or understand.....

No one is going to sell tuners buy blasting others...and we are tired of hearing it all... not all are Dyno tuners.... some are just poor Harley Riders wanting to make their bike run better...if all you tune with or know is a TTS FINE ...live with that and enjoy .... some want to learn other systems and tuners... accept that and move on

[wurk_truk]

There is no where better to learn TTS than right here on HTT. Hopefully, Jamie, Iclick, etc will post more often over here, instead of HDF, and make HTT THE site to go to for PV tuning, too.



Lets stop this BS every time someone wants info on a tuner other then a TTS .. and... lets stop the BS for those that DO wish to tune with TTS, and the threads always get locked because TTS is junk, which is not true for sure.not every one wants to use something if they know nothing about it or if they have a Buddy that is good with another tuner.. Help others by telling them how to use what they want...not why they are stupid for not using something they do not want or understand.....

No one is going to sell tuners buy blasting others...and we ALLare tired of hearing it all... not all are Dyno tuners.... some are just poor Harley Riders wanting to make their bike run better...if all you tune with or know is a TTS FINE ...live with the fact TTS is here to stay as a tuner, toowith that and enjoy .... some want to learn other systems and tuners... accept that and move on

I fixed it Brian, or else you sound like another Mod that dislikes TTS.   NOT saying that you do, saying how it appears. As an owner of the site... I would think neutrality would work well.  I, myself need to accept other tuners...  I ALWAYS have, but others do NOT accept TTS in the same light at all.

my actual fantasy, is for all the various posts to STOP bickering or showing ANY hate at all!  Think of ALL the knowledge that sits right here in HTT from all the members!

In the mean time...  I will be in the TTS section.