Powervision over TTS

[DeneFLHR]

I purchased the TTS earlier this season and had a perfect dyno tune conducted on my bike. Ran great until I changed the mufflers for a more sedate and quieter pair. Now it lost  torque and horsepower, and has a horrid surge around town with a missing idle that clatters the primary chain at times. Since I am not anywhere near mechanically inclined, if I got a Powervision could I make the bike run reasonable without expensive trips to the dyno when I decide to change a part or two? Are Powervisions married to the bike and can only be used once on one bike like the TTS? There are some popping up on eBay but are they useless if they've been used once to program another bike? Thanks in advance.

[Tsani]

To the best of my knowledge, the PV marries itself to your bike but I read that They will unlock it for $225.00. However that may not be in effect now. Both the PV and the TTS are good units. But you have the TTS right now. Read  up on it and run a couple of V-Tunes on your bike. Plenty of help here when folks ain't bickering.

[mayor]

The Power Vision marries to the bike, just like TTS. 

TTS can be used as often as you want on the bike that the VCI (dongle) is married too, it's not a one time shot.  if you have TTS now and you have a bike with factory o2 sensors, then I would go with what Tsani suggested and do a couple of vtune to see if you can make the bike run better.   

[Jamie Long]

The best advice I can give you is to choose the product that the individual doing the tuning is most comfortable tuning with. Both products are very capable and go about things slightly different, both also marry to the ECM. Truthfully if you already had the bike dyno tuned and all you have changed is the mufflers you should be able to get it pretty easily tuned in with your current product with not much effort as long as you have a computer with basic skills, the software and cable kit, and a saved copy of your current calibration, you will likely find this forum a big help as well. If you decide to go the other direction and would like more info on Power Vision you are always welcome to contact us.

[DeneFLHR]

Thanks Tsani. Everytime I open up the TTS program on my computer my head hurts so I can tell you that trying to run V-tunes will just make it worse if I'm at the helm 

[Coyote]

I think the PV unlocks are $199 but you might check with Jamie at Fuel Moto on that. But since you already have a tuner, I'd give that a try before I spent more money.

What changes did you make to your bike? What did you have before, what do you have now?

[hrdtail78]

Put the other ones back on.

[hrdtail78]

You put more restrictive pipes on it.  It should be running richer.  According to some.  This has to be better.  That's only an internet truth and not the whole truth.

If you already have the TTS, you will gain nothing with a vision. 

[DeneFLHR]

I think the PV unlocks are $199 but you might check with Jamie at Fuel Moto on that. But since you already have a tuner, I'd give that a try before I spent more money.

What changes did you make to your bike? What did you have before, what do you have now?

Hey Coyote, I got it tuned with Rush true duals and Jackpot 4" dyno tuned slip ons with 2" baffles. Too loud so got a set of new SE Fatshotz with 2" baffles and went from anywhere from 4 discs to 15 and even tried closed end caps, (that was bad, zero power with closed). I sold the Jackpots a while ago which is alright because they were embarrassingly loud, tinny and sneezed upon decel.
I took it back to the tuner and he did a run again w/ Fatshotz, obviously same dyno and I lost 10tq and 5 hp. AFR is out to lunch. Amazing

[DeneFLHR]

You put more restrictive pipes on it.  It should be running richer.  According to some.  This has to be better.  That's only an internet truth and not the whole truth.

If you already have the TTS, you will gain nothing with a vision.

I would've thought that the Fatshotz are more restrictive because they are a lot quieter and deeper than the Jackpots. I have phoned the guys at Supertrapp several times asking their opinion as to why the power loss and they tell me to try different configurations, none seem different to my butt dyno and I can't afford to keep taking it back to the dyno. They insist the Fatshots are a very free flowing muffler, actually designed for the stock cat headpipe, so why the hp loss you would think they would provide more hp if they are so free flowing? I was thinking that with the PV I might be able to actually tune it because the TTS is very confusing to me but I'm not going to shell out that amount of money again. Thanks hrdtail78.

[strokerjlk]

you will find your AFR to be both rich and lean. it didn't just go rich in areas,it went lean as well in others.
it needs the ve's dialed back in .whatever tuner you decide on.
its all about the characteristics of the exhaust. it will work better now in some areas and some not as well in others.
a few areas might be the same,if the two exhausts work exactly the same in the exact same rpm/tp/kpa. not very many though.
basically you need to get busy

[1FSTRK]

Before you "shell out that amount of money" for a new tuning device, you may want to take a look at their software and instructions to make sure it also does not make you're head hurt.

[wolf_59]

Thats the thing about TTS, PV, T-MAX and any other real tuning device unless you are committed to learn how to use the product you are going to need a dyno tune or a freind that can use the product every time that you make changes
I had the same issues when reading the V-Tune instructions my head would start spinning until I quit reading them and just started following the steps, thats when it got easy

[DeneFLHR]

Thats the thing about TTS, PV, T-MAX and any other real tuning device unless you are committed to learn how to use the product you are going to need a dyno tune or a freind that can use the product every time that you make changes
I had the same issues when reading the V-Tune instructions my head would start spinning until I quit reading them and just started following the steps, thats when it got easy

Good words of wisdom. I had no idea that doing such a small change would throw the tune out so much. I wish I could post the before / after of the AFR graph. I was talking with someone yesterday who has had the T-Max on two different bikes and that isn't the answer to everything also he said. Still nothing compared to a good dyno tune but who can afford that more than once.

[FLTRI]

Dene,
The cheapest way out to a good running bike is to return the exhauist to what it was tuned for. Earplugs work.

Any other option requires a retune and buying into ads that indicate all you need to do is write the check and the system does the tuning for you...is simply BS. If it were true there would be no need for dyno tuners.

Bob

[1FSTRK]

It is funny some people will buy new parts time after time and if they want to change to a new part they will think nothing of buying again. It can be for more power or a different look or sound.
Ask them to pay a man for his services and you would think you asked for their first born child.
I think all new parts should have $400.00 added to their list price and come with a free tune. People would buy them anyway but they would stop obsessing over or leaving  out the most important step of the installation.

[FLTRI]

It is funny some people will buy new parts time after time and if they want to change to a new part they will think nothing of buying again. It can be for more power or a different look or sound.
Ask them to pay a man for his services and you would think you asked for their first born child.
I think all new parts should have $400.00 added to their list price and come with a free tune. People would buy them anyway but they would stop obsessing over or leaving  out the most important step of the installation.

Thank you! Great marketing strategy too!
Bob

[07heri]

I wouldn't mind paying a guy if he was competent.  But it seems finding competent tuners is the chore.  Geez I cant even find someone that has heard of TTS, never mind tune the bike.  I like most of what TTS can do but without a good tuner around it's alot of money spent that isn't being used. 

Point being, if you buy a tuning device because it's touted as being the best thing since sliced bread, but you can't find a tuner that uses it, you screwed yourself.   I think the smart thing for someone to do is first find a good reputable tuner.  Find out what he uses to tune and go with that.  I love the TTS for the options but I don't think I will ever get a great tune doing VTune runs and relying on the crappy o2 sensor set up.  Thus, I would have been better off finding a good tuner and running what device he uses.  The homebrew tuners are good to get by but nothing better than a good tune from someone that really knows what he's doing.  I guess it all depends on what someone thinks is "good enough" for a tune.

[tdkkart]

Point being, if you buy a tuning device because it's touted as being the best thing since sliced bread, but you can't find a tuner that uses it, you screwed yourself.   I think the smart thing for someone to do is first find a good reputable tuner.  Find out what he uses to tune and go with that.  I love the TTS for the options but I don't think I will ever get a great tune doing VTune runs and relying on the crappy o2 sensor set up.  Thus, I would have been better off finding a good tuner and running what device he uses.  The homebrew tuners are good to get by but nothing better than a good tune from someone that really knows what he's doing.  I guess it all depends on what someone thinks is "good enough" for a tune.

So just what exactly do you think a "tuner" is using, other than a crappy o2 sensor setup??
I guarantee you that a LARGE majority of tuners are mis-using the equipment they have, which would explain why I continually get behind bikes that pop,fart,blow black smoke and won't get out of their own way.

[EGNBLUE]

I wouldn't mind paying a guy if he was competent.  But it seems finding competent tuners is the chore...

As the bike's owner, that IS your job.  If you needed eye surgery, would you not seek out the best surgeon?  There's probably no one that has any more of a vested interest in your eyes or bike then you!

There are far too many posts here that would suggest there are quite a few competent tuners around.  Now if they aren't conveniently located and getting to them is just a bit of a chore for you, then settle for mediocre and call it a day.

[DeneFLHR]

I was lucky in that respect, my tuner lived only an hour and a bit away down the freeway. He is as competent in the TTS realm as anybody and the bike blew me away when I rode it afterwards but in retrospect I should've made sure I was happy with the build before I took it to him. Like I said, I would've never thought that just changing something like the mufflers would have such an impact.

[wurk_truk]

Different mufflers will change the whole characteristics of how air moves in AND out of the engines.  Like Jim has said, this can really screw up your VEs.  Some will be close and some will be way ass out there.

I am GLAD you bit the bullet and obtained a decent tune!

I WILL tell you something...  getting a decent homebrew tune using TTS, SEPST, or PV takes work and dedication on a DIYer guys part.  My personal vote goes to TTS.  I also think if someone were to invest knowledge as a DIYer with the PV, that person would obtain similar results.

TMax is...  OK I feel, but I like the ability of the ECM to retain knock retard and TMax doesn't have that.

Now...  some out there, and they ARE fellow members, get caught up with a deal like the OP and the bike is running shitty.  THAT is NOT the time to learn your tuner.  OP, I would bet your head would NOT spin, if you were to start learning right now while the pressure is OFF.  The beauty of TTS and PV is for us DIYers that make changes to their bikes.   Having the ability to 'tune' ones bike is invaluable with the EFI systems we all use anymore.

There is no where better to learn TTS than right here on HTT.  Hopefully, Jamie, Iclick, etc will post more often over here, instead of HDF, and make HTT THE site to go to for PV tuning, too.

[wurk_truk]

I wouldn't mind paying a guy if he was competent.  But it seems finding competent tuners is the chore.  Geez I cant even find someone that has heard of TTS, never mind tune the bike.  I like most of what TTS can do but without a good tuner around it's alot of money spent that isn't being used. 

Point being, if you buy a tuning device because it's touted as being the best thing since sliced bread, but you can't find a tuner that uses it, you screwed yourself.   I think the smart thing for someone to do is first find a good reputable tuner.  Find out what he uses to tune and go with that.  I love the TTS for the options but I don't think I will ever get a great tune doing VTune runs and relying on the crappy o2 sensor set up.  Thus, I would have been better off finding a good tuner and running what device he uses.  The homebrew tuners are good to get by but nothing better than a good tune from someone that really knows what he's doing.  I guess it all depends on what someone thinks is "good enough" for a tune.

I think you are mistaken a bit here.  Sure, a tuner (if he is a fantastic tuner) WILL give me and a few others here a better tune than we could do ourselves.  But...  there is NO doubt in MY mind that Mayor and folks like him can equal what a run of the mill dyno guy can produce.  It REALLY is all about the amount of time one wishes to invest to learn, make mistakes, learn from the mistakes, and THEN come here to HTT and learn some more.

There are really only two ways to tune... use O2 sensors, or... do a four/five gas tunes.  BOTH have advantages and dis-advantages.  As far as narrow band-vs- widebands...  the narrow bands react way faster than wide bands, but the wide bands have a way ass better range to them.  Biggest issue to ANYONE using O2 sensors is the sensors need to be placed correctly, whether you are a Pro Tuner, like Jim, or a DIYer like me or Mayor...  that's the issue.

[HV]

There is no where better to learn TTS than right here on HTT. Hopefully, Jamie, Iclick, etc will post more often over here, instead of HDF, and make HTT THE site to go to for PV tuning, too.

Amen brother .....people have to realise that NO tuner is worth crap alone with out the person using it knowing what to to with it.....Just because to buy a TTS and load a map with it does not mean you will be able to have the top tune out there if you do not know how to use it..or know someone comfortable using it... same with a PV..your going to have a learing curve until its done... then add the Dyno guys that tune all the time and mix that with the back yard guy and its not a black and white simple deal... Just because a guy wants to use a PV does not make him any less passionate about his bike then a guy with a TTS ... Buy what you want BUT make sure you understand how to use it or have a buddy that does ...

Lets stop this BS every time someone wants info on a tuner other then a TTS .. not every one wants to use something if they know nothing about it or if they have a Buddy that is good with another tuner.. Help others by telling them how to use what they want...not why they are stupid for not using something they do not want or understand.....

No one is going to sell tuners buy blasting others...and we are tired of hearing it all... not all are Dyno tuners.... some are just poor Harley Riders wanting to make their bike run better...if all you tune with or know is a TTS FINE ...live with that and enjoy .... some want to learn other systems and tuners... accept that and move on

[wurk_truk]

There is no where better to learn TTS than right here on HTT. Hopefully, Jamie, Iclick, etc will post more often over here, instead of HDF, and make HTT THE site to go to for PV tuning, too.



Lets stop this BS every time someone wants info on a tuner other then a TTS .. and... lets stop the BS for those that DO wish to tune with TTS, and the threads always get locked because TTS is junk, which is not true for sure.not every one wants to use something if they know nothing about it or if they have a Buddy that is good with another tuner.. Help others by telling them how to use what they want...not why they are stupid for not using something they do not want or understand.....

No one is going to sell tuners buy blasting others...and we ALLare tired of hearing it all... not all are Dyno tuners.... some are just poor Harley Riders wanting to make their bike run better...if all you tune with or know is a TTS FINE ...live with the fact TTS is here to stay as a tuner, toowith that and enjoy .... some want to learn other systems and tuners... accept that and move on

I fixed it Brian, or else you sound like another Mod that dislikes TTS.   NOT saying that you do, saying how it appears. As an owner of the site... I would think neutrality would work well.  I, myself need to accept other tuners...  I ALWAYS have, but others do NOT accept TTS in the same light at all.

my actual fantasy, is for all the various posts to STOP bickering or showing ANY hate at all!  Think of ALL the knowledge that sits right here in HTT from all the members!

In the mean time...  I will be in the TTS section.

[HV]

Fortunately we have one Site Owner and one Mod That ( unless you haven't noticed ) NOT Only have the TTS on their own bikes but are very involved in the tuning using a TTS .... I don't Like or Dislike the TTS ..I don't use one or have any inclination to use one... I have not used or seen a PV either  ....so in that race I'm very neutreal ... ( For now ) ... I'm also NOT a Dyno tuner so I'm ignorant in that area as well...  I'm sure the TTS is here to stay..( Thank You for reassuring me of that ) ....... its just the Bickering with any one not using one that I would like to see go away ..I'm sure there is a better way to promote a product 

Enjoy your stay in the TTS Section 

[TXP]

I may get sent to the woodshed but that's ok too. Its not just product but. product support. Some companies have so devalued DynoJets Products with internet and phone sales that brick and mortar operations don't push them anymore. Some of these same companies have been told by TTS to abide by the agreement not to devalue the product or not sell it anymore and destroy the market for other retailers. Hence some sour grapes. You guys really think any tuner on here knows what Steve does about Delphi ECM's? I'll have to call bullshi% on that one. Why do you think HD went with TTS in the beginning? I have seen none of the TTS bashers credibly refute with evidence to back it up one thing, not even one claim Steve has made about how the Delphi systems works. Just opinion, conjecture, and some out right bullshi%. Okay ready for the woodshed now, lol.

[wurk_truk]

Fortunately we have one Site Owner and one Mod That ( unless you haven't noticed ) NOT Only have the TTS on their own bikes but are very involved in the tuning using a TTS .... I don't Like or Dislike the TTS ..I don't use one or have any inclination to use one... I have not used or seen a PV either  ....so in that race I'm very neutreal ... ( For now ) ... I'm also NOT a Dyno tuner so I'm ignorant in that area as well...  I'm sure the TTS is here to stay..( Thank You for reassuring me of that ) ....... its just the Bickering with any one not using one that I would like to see go away ..I'm sure there is a better way to promote a product 

Enjoy your stay in the TTS Section 

Who bashed DJ products in this thread?  We all told him to NOT buy a PV, because he already owner a tuner, and I am SURE that response would have been the same no matter HOW you mix up TTS, PV, and SEPST...  he already HAD a tuner... use that.

I guess that is where I will stay Brian.  How you describe things on this site are NO WHERE How most of us see them.  Where is anyone even CLOSE to BVBob and Jim coming into threads that have to do with TTS?  Nobody, not even close.  You guys don't even see or think like we do, you guys act like members and not the MOds/ Owners you SHOULD act like.  Show me ANY company on here that has received the grief TTS has over the last 4 years?  And, I LIKE heated arguments, too.  But this gets over the top more times than not.

And you think Dynojet gets grief?  Gimme a break.

ALL, I wish to do, is be a normal member and ENJOY talking about tuning, etc, but that can NOT happen when the haters come in and get threads locked, because believe you me, those threads would NOT have been locked but for the haters stirring "Potty mouth" up.

Uhhh.... of COURSE Steve knows...  and, truth be told, the reason I use TTS at this point, is because I can come HERE, to HTT, and ask the dude that makes MY product.  Where is any other manufacturer, Brian?  So everyone talks yahoo crap about our only member that actually makes a product?  I would venture to say that 99% of our site's collective knowledge came from two guys, in regards to the Delphi ECM, and 90 of that came from Steve (10% from FBRR).   If you feel for one moment, that we should listen to a dealer or tuner explain this stuff, I wish to smoke some of THAT!  HAHA!  I, myself, would rather listen to a guy who has actually sat down with manufacturers, and most assuredly OUR (MOCO) manufacturer, to teach all of us things.....

And you are saying it is me?  ALL I ever do is simply refer to the thread by Whittlebeast about how GREAT the PV was, and then proved to all of our satisfaction the PV was outputting erroneous information into its own version of datamaster...  a thread on HERE, HTT?  This was NOT opinion at all, BTW.  So, if closed loop is for idiots, TTS has some bugs, v-tuning doesn't work...  opinions...  I can dig that thread up, I'm sure.  Also, fairly certain THAT will/did get fixed in the PV, except...  no one from DJ is here to refute this stuff.

[Tre_11 FLHX]

Unlike Brian, I've used both and IMHO, I like the PV better.  I spent 3 years with the TTS My biggest complaint was having to haul the laptop around. 

Agree Steve supports his product, but in private conversation with him, He loves him some Steve. Just saying 

I've had great support from DJ (Dan Hurigan), Jamie from fuel moto and other tuners from this site.  Neither of which bash the competition.

I find it amusing that the TTS fan bois take this "Potty mouth" so seriously.  I'm not a tuner, but I can tell you that PV is strong competition for TTS and you don't have to haul a laptop.

Tre'

[HV]

How you describe things on this site are NO WHERE How most of us[/s]  ( YOU )  see them

There I fixed THAT one for you .... 

[sfmichael]

 
  "Agree Steve supports his product, but in private conversation with him, He loves him some Steve. Just saying" 

  heehee   

[Rider57]

I enjoy getting bad data, bad info, bad instruction along with misleading product claims!
It confirms my suspicions of history within a company.
As usual, ideals within a company are the slowest to change with making the product look like the newest, latest, greatest in the forefront.
There are many reasons I don't use certain products for tuning and only one reason for using what I use.
It's not a matter of "closest one wins", it's a matter of being correct out of the box.
PC1, II, III, PVC, Twintec, LM1/LM2, EMS..........name it. I've bought, tested it and put it on the shelf if it didn't work as advertized.
TTS is not on the shelf. Yes, I have tested it. Yes, I use it.
There aren't many dyno techs out there that know what they are doing on the dyne let alone what tuning software to use, between 5 and 10 nation wide is something I heard from a well known tuner in Florida. I somewhat agree, I think it's less than 7.
I don't post much, but I do read the posts. Some are amusing, some aren't. Many make claims that I cant duplicate, sans 1.

[TXP]

Dan would be a great addition to the site. He is VERY knowledgeable and one of DynoJets most valuable assets. Having an engineer help tuners and DIY'ers learn more about how/why things work the way they do with their particular product is IMO a solid way to generate sales.

[Sam45]

Fortunately we have one Site Owner and one Mod That ( unless you haven't noticed ) NOT Only have the TTS on their own bikes but are very involved in the tuning using a TTS .... I don't Like or Dislike the TTS ..I don't use one or have any inclination to use one... I have not used or seen a PV either  ....so in that race I'm very neutreal ... ( For now ) ... I'm also NOT a Dyno tuner so I'm ignorant in that area as well...  I'm sure the TTS is here to stay..( Thank You for reassuring me of that ) ....... its just the Bickering with any one not using one that I would like to see go away ..I'm sure there is a better way to promote a product 

Enjoy your stay in the TTS Section 

Who bashed DJ products in this thread?  We all told him to NOT buy a PV, because he already owner a tuner, and I am SURE that response would have been the same no matter HOW you mix up TTS, PV, and SEPST...  he already HAD a tuner... use that.

I guess that is where I will stay Brian.  How you describe things on this site are NO WHERE How most of us see them.  Where is anyone even CLOSE to BVBob and Jim coming into threads that have to do with TTS?  Nobody, not even close.  You guys don't even see or think like we do, you guys act like members and not the MOds/ Owners you SHOULD act like.  Show me ANY company on here that has received the grief TTS has over the last 4 years?  And, I LIKE heated arguments, too.  But this gets over the top more times than not.

And you think Dynojet gets grief?  Gimme a break.

ALL, I wish to do, is be a normal member and ENJOY talking about tuning, etc, but that can NOT happen when the haters come in and get threads locked, because believe you me, those threads would NOT have been locked but for the haters stirring "Potty mouth" up.

Uhhh.... of COURSE Steve knows...  and, truth be told, the reason I use TTS at this point, is because I can come HERE, to HTT, and ask the dude that makes MY product.  Where is any other manufacturer, Brian?  So everyone talks yahoo crap about our only member that actually makes a product?  I would venture to say that 99% of our site's collective knowledge came from two guys, in regards to the Delphi ECM, and 90 of that came from Steve (10% from FBRR).   If you feel for one moment, that we should listen to a dealer or tuner explain this stuff, I wish to smoke some of THAT!  HAHA!  I, myself, would rather listen to a guy who has actually sat down with manufacturers, and most assuredly OUR (MOCO) manufacturer, to teach all of us things.....

And you are saying it is me?  ALL I ever do is simply refer to the thread by Whittlebeast about how GREAT the PV was, and then proved to all of our satisfaction the PV was outputting erroneous information into its own version of datamaster...  a thread on HERE, HTT?  This was NOT opinion at all, BTW.  So, if closed loop is for idiots, TTS has some bugs, v-tuning doesn't work...  opinions...  I can dig that thread up, I'm sure.  Also, fairly certain THAT will/did get fixed in the PV, except...  no one from DJ is here to refute this stuff.

LoL  Its a competition in here and it is TTS land they are even better at getting more grief LoL.  I have TTS and Power Vision I know where to go to  search for what I want.  I do have a preference but am thankful to everybody for their time in the forums.  I wish the nick picking, bickering and all the BS.  taking sides etc. was kept to a minimal occasional thing but unfortunately its the norm in the EFI world.  People like myself are left to walk the volitional roads and make our best tune.  I was worried that I was not going to get my bike running good and be able to be in some what control of it lets face it, its not eye surgery LoL. All is ok now and looking back if it was not for ALL and I stress ALL in both tuner camps I would not be where I am at today and thank you all for that..

[Tsani]

First and foremost, it's not TTS land here, it's HTT land.
Second, weather or not you like a guy or his attitiude should have no bearing on a intelligent insightful discussion about a product.
Third, big problem in these discussions has been failure to back up statements stated as fact, on both sides. Granted, sometimes a vendor can't say everything to prove their point, weather it be Steve or Jamie. You can't expect a vendor to give away info to his competition. Others, a different story. But I think most of us can separate fact from fiction.

It's real simple. As a DIY'er, I don't care if you like or don't like someone. All this crap does is muck up the waters. I wonder if some folks are worried about the direction tuning is going. Well don't. Plenty of room for everyone. So how about cutting the third grade attituides and name calling and just act like men trying to learn and help for a change. Both the PV and the TTS are good products, each with  their pros and cons and both are going to get better and be aroubd for a while. At least till the industry changes and the EPA gets their way once and for all.

Other than that, this akin to an oil  thread. Winter is coming.

[Tsani]

Oh, BTW, TTS and PV land are over in the Vendor area.

[hrdtail78]

Unlike Brian, I've used both and IMHO, I like the PV better.  I spent 3 years with the TTS My biggest complaint was having to haul the laptop around. 

Agree Steve supports his product, but in private conversation with him, He loves him some Steve. Just saying 

I've had great support from DJ (Dan Hurigan), Jamie from fuel moto and other tuners from this site.  Neither of which bash the competition.

I find it amusing that the TTS fan bois take this "Potty mouth" so seriously.  I'm not a tuner, but I can tell you that PV is strong competition for TTS and you don't have to haul a laptop.

Tre'

One of the biggest problems I see with starting heated discusions.  I'm a koolaid drinker, lemming, or a fanboi because I have used and like the TTS product for 5 years. But, the guys that jump on the vision wagon after tuning one bike with it are fine.  And these are the same people dropping the names.  Give me a break.

There are different opinions here.  Different tuning strategies.  All is good.  We can discuss, argue, and yell at each other all we want.  What I don't understand is.  If you have an argument, back it up with real world.  Just don't name call because you have ran into the limit of your knowledge and that's all you have left.

[Sam45]

Oh, BTW, TTS and PV land are over in the Vendor area.

I have to take the high road.  I dont want to get banned I need a some place to come to when I need info on my TTS..

[strokerjlk]

5 and 10 nation wide is something I heard from a well known tuner in Florida. I somewhat agree, I think it's less than 7.

I agree there isn't many.
But my list would probably look diff

[Tre_11 FLHX]

weather or not you like a guy or his attitiude attitude should have no bearing on a intelligent insightful discussion about a product.

TSANI it has a lot of bearing on who I will deal with.  I personally won't deal with a company if they have the cure for world hunger and I'm starving if their attitude sucks, attitude and professionalism means a lot to me.

I wasn't saying TTS is worse than a PV.  I've used TTS since 08, hasn't been the most user friendly product.  Once Doc published the instructions, it was easier.  I agree since the OP already has a TTS, dial it in with that.  I on the other hand chose to give the PV a try, wasn't a big fan of it either initially.  With the release of the AT feature in the Beta, along with some recommendations from tuners on this site, my bike has never run better.

That and I like the fact that I don't have to strap a laptop on the back, hook up a display (if I want to see what cells I'm hitting) Etc. Fact is, I can do a tune run any time I want as I have the PV mounted on my scoot and it's simple. 

To go on record:  I was never a fan of any of the of the DJ PC products or DTT products, but DJ with their PV, in my OPINION is stiff competition for TTS and gives the end user a viable choice.

Tre'

[BVHOG]

  "Agree Steve supports his product, but in private conversation with him, He loves him some Steve. Just saying" 

  heehee   

And therein the problem lies, but don't bash him for self love, Woody Allen once said "don't knock masturbation, it's sex with someone I love" Steve has a decent product, the best? debatable but certainly one of the best.  For the OP or anyone else, if you have the TTS then you would be a fool to spend money on the PV same as someone with a super tuner spending money on the TTS thinking it wont produce a great running bike because of what they may have read on the internet.
A large percentage of the problems here could easily be rectified if all the TTS threads were just moved to the vendor section.

[tdkkart]

With the release of the AT feature in the Beta, along with some recommendations from tuners on this site, my bike has never run better.

That and I like the fact that I don't have to strap a laptop on the back, hook up a display (if I want to see what cells I'm hitting) Etc. Fact is, I can do a tune run any time I want as I have the PV mounted on my scoot and it's simple.

As a TTS user for over a year and a PV user for 2 weeks, I have to say the PV is some SERIOUS competition for the TTS.

Right out of the box, the map sent to me by Fuelmoto when I purchased the PV kicks ass over the TTS tune that I thought I had running pretty damn decent.
Although, even though I had spent considerable time tuning with the TTS, I'll be the first to admit that I hadn't worked with it as much as I should have, simply because the TTS had become a pain in the ass to use.

Laptop, laptop charger, remote display, cordless mouse for when the touchscreen refused to work, cables etc etc. Then loosing it all when the computer crashed or locked up in the middle of a v-tune. AARRGH!!!

The PV is permanently mounted to the bike for now, lets me see everything I need to see, and more, at the push of a button while riding. Even 100 miles from home, if I notice a rideability issue I can start a datalog while I'm riding, duplicate the situation right then and there so it's recorded, and then deal with it when I have time. This past Saturday we rode about 150mi, I did 8 seperate datalogs* while riding under different conditions, and then dealt with them after I got home. Sunday we rode approx. 200mi, I verified that some of my changes worked, a couple need more work.
So far the bike gets better mileage, has more power, and runs smoother overall than anything I had using the TTS.

So far the PV's operation has been flawless, not one single hiccup.

*need to clarify, "datalogs" as in simply recording the data coming from the ECM(32 available signals), NOT v-tuning, NOT autotuning etc, simply recording the data for later use.

[hdmanillac]

I agree with that !

[Tsani]

Tre', wasn't trying to single you out. I happen to agree with you large part about attitude, etc. But I just wanted to point out that it seemed/seems that a large part of the TTS questions almost always turn negetive due a personal grudge match which really has no place on TTS. I am sure the PV is serious competition for TTS and I think that is a good thing. Can't wait to see how it developes. And Like BVHog and others have said, the OP should use what he has unless he wants to spend more money. If the OP cannot learn to use the tools then it does not matter IMHO if he uses the TTS or the PV, the results will be the same. As for not dragging the LT around, I think the new TTS interface helps with that. It will data log on it's own. True, you have no screen to look at. That may change, who knows but with either setup, you still need a computer in the end.

[EGNBLUE]

...This past Saturday we rode about 150mi, I did 8 seperate datalogs while riding under different conditions, and then dealt with them after I got home. Sunday we rode approx. 200mi, I verified that some of my changes worked, a couple need more work...

I was sold on this product until the above couple lines.

On a 150 mile ride you did 8 different data logs and then the next day did another 200 miles only to find the tune still needed more work.

It would seem you've spent quite a bit of both time and money with two different systems and still can't get the tune correct.  Maybe there's an issue someplace else 

[rbabos]

...This past Saturday we rode about 150mi, I did 8 seperate datalogs while riding under different conditions, and then dealt with them after I got home. Sunday we rode approx. 200mi, I verified that some of my changes worked, a couple need more work...

I was sold on this product until the above couple lines.

On a 150 mile ride you did 8 different data logs and then the next day did another 200 miles only to find the tune still needed more work.

It would seem you've spent quite a bit of both time and money with two different systems and still can't get the tune correct.  Maybe there's an issue someplace else 

Maybe you missed the point it ran better out of the box than it did with all the time he spent using TTS. A decent close cal will do that rather than the standard generic cals that need a lot more work to make them right. Dyno tuners don't much care since it's start from scratch anyway.  For a DIYr starting really close and only needing a few small teeks is a blessing.
Ron

[tdkkart]

...This past Saturday we rode about 150mi, I did 8 seperate datalogs while riding under different conditions, and then dealt with them after I got home. Sunday we rode approx. 200mi, I verified that some of my changes worked, a couple need more work...

I was sold on this product until the above couple lines.

On a 150 mile ride you did 8 different data logs and then the next day did another 200 miles only to find the tune still needed more work.

It would seem you've spent quite a bit of both time and money with two different systems and still can't get the tune correct.  Maybe there's an issue someplace else 

Whoa there big fella!!
Before you crawl all over me and the product, have a listen so you better understand.

The 2 days worth of riding this weekend were strictly recreational rides with the ole' lady on board, they were not intended to be tuning runs at all. These were the first miles I had ridden 2-up since starting to use the PV, so I took the opportunity to pay attention to how things were working when loaded.

Saturday.........
I noticed that I had some very light detonation at 70mph, both on level ground, and while climbing slight grades, but not under heavy acceleration. This was verified both by ear and by the knock retard gauges that I had setup on the PV screen. So I made several couple datalog recordings of these while rolling down the road.
I also noted that I had some ping under light acceleration from 60 mph and above in 6th gear. Did a couple recordings here too.
Noticed a couple other small issues,under hard acceleration, recorded those too.

After returning home I pulled up all the datalogs in MegaLogViewer and tweaked all the issues, added some fuel here and there, pulled some timing here and there.

Sunday........
Loaded up the map that I had modified Saturday night.(1 map, several changes)
While out riding I verifed that I had gotten rid of all the ping in the 70+mph range, and most in the 60mph range, more work to do here.
I did not however account for riding at 50mph in 5th gear in hilly terrain, so I made a couple recordings of that to see what I need to do there also.


This is what it's all about is it not?? Make a change, try it out change it again as needed.
Sure, I could have "fixed" the whole issue by pulling 10 degrees of timing out of the whole map and added a "Potty mouth" load of fuel(I've seen some maps that did this) and gone down the road but that's not the point is it??

To this point with the PV I've made 2 or 3 autotune runs, and made 2 manual map changes with another one up coming.
Is this too much??
Shoul I have been able to zero in on this faster if I wasn't the dumbass you think I am??

BTW, due to lack of decent fuel around here, all my tuning so far has been with 87 octane non-ethanol gas.
Once I'm satisfied with this I'll try some 89octane E-10. I might end up riding alot more and doing several more runs and changes.
Or should I just quit while I'm ahead??
   

[Jeffd]

...This past Saturday we rode about 150mi, I did 8 seperate datalogs while riding under different conditions, and then dealt with them after I got home. Sunday we rode approx. 200mi, I verified that some of my changes worked, a couple need more work...

I was sold on this product until the above couple lines.

On a 150 mile ride you did 8 different data logs and then the next day did another 200 miles only to find the tune still needed more work.

It would seem you've spent quite a bit of both time and money with two different systems and still can't get the tune correct.  Maybe there's an issue someplace else 

I spent a lot more time and miles then that doing my vtuning with tts and I bet everybody that was looking for the perfect tune did as well lol.

[HV]

Just FYI...I have my new RG arriving this week and it WILL be getting a PV... so let the fun begin  ..I love a new challenge...

[Coyote]

...This past Saturday we rode about 150mi, I did 8 seperate datalogs while riding under different conditions, and then dealt with them after I got home. Sunday we rode approx. 200mi, I verified that some of my changes worked, a couple need more work...

I was sold on this product until the above couple lines.

On a 150 mile ride you did 8 different data logs and then the next day did another 200 miles only to find the tune still needed more work.

It would seem you've spent quite a bit of both time and money with two different systems and still can't get the tune correct.  Maybe there's an issue someplace else 

I spent a lot more time and miles then that doing my vtuning with tts and I bet everybody that was looking for the perfect tune did as well lol.

More like a couple of months and 750-1000 miles for mine.

[FLTRI]

Something to consider:
Most ALL closed loop tuning and running issues stem from improper O2 signalling.

It makes absolutely NO DIFFERENCE which auto-tune system..PV/smartune/v-tune/t-max, EMS, any system must use the EXACT same O2 data...good AND bad!

IMO a well designed auto-tune system should take an extra step in data collection and analysis:
Sampled data is examined and used if considered good and tossed out if not.
Any of these systems do that?
Bob
PS - The statement: Garbage in Garbage out...still applies.

[FLTRI]

More like a couple of months and 750-1000 miles for mine.

Now that you've got a few bikes tuned with v-tune how long does it take you to dial in a stage1 bike?

I feel it is somewhat unfair to evaluate any system after the first attempt. Some read, understand, and follow instructions...some don't.
Some learn from forums before they start and some use forums to educate them after they are confounded.

The learning curve also varies significantly depending a lot on what EFI tuning experience a first-time user brings to the new product.

Learning PV tuning should come easier after tuning with TTS, SESPT or Direct link.

Bob

[rbabos]

Something to consider:
Most ALL closed loop tuning and running issues stem from improper O2 signalling.

It makes absolutely NO DIFFERENCE which auto-tune system..PV/smartune/v-tune/t-max, EMS, any system must use the EXACT same O2 data...good AND bad!

IMO a well designed auto-tune system should take an extra step in data collection and analysis:
Sampled data is examined and used if considered good and tossed out if not.
Any of these systems do that?
Bob
PS - The statement: Garbage in Garbage out...still applies.

Agree, it's all about sampling. I found the broadbands with TS to call for different ve's then what the narrow bands did. I've not figured out why at this point but setting the ve's with broadbands improved overall running in my case .
If what you say is correct, then the tune with PV should go into the dumpster the more he plays with it. Starting with a very close cal, bad sampling will force a bad tune down the road. We have to wait and see how this plays out for him. So far it doesn't seem to be the case since timing is the only area that needs some work.
Ron

[Rider57]

Getting base or starting maps in a library makes a difference.
Having a good starting point shortens the time quite a bit.

[tdkkart]

So far it doesn't seem to be the case since timing is the only area that needs some work.
Ron

You guys sure are good at making assumptions........

Assuming you're talking about my comments, I did a couple fuel tuning runs to tweak the VE numbers to my bike,
overall the changes were reasonable, +/-10 % or less over most of the map, with only a couple "suspect" areas, one of which happens
where I am getting some pinging issues.
Overall though I'm happy with the feel of things fuel wise, it runs very well, and when watch in the Closed Loop integrator signals they stay within +/- 2% during most riding conditions.(yet to be seen if these numbers actually mean anything?? Don't remember seeing these mentioned much, if at all before)

I don't think we can expect all O2 sensors to read exactly the same. I know there are standards that are supposed to be met, but we all know how that works in everything else these days.

So now that I'm happy with the fuel, I'm playing with timing, which is especially important when trying to run 87 octane fuel.

Any theories on pulling timing rather than adding fuel when chasing detonation??
I know what I think works, but I'm open to other opinions.

[Tre_11 FLHX]

Tre', wasn't trying to single you out. I happen to agree with you large part about attitude, etc. But I just wanted to point out that it seemed/seems that a large part of the TTS questions almost always turn negetive due a personal grudge match which really has no place on TTS. I am sure the PV is serious competition for TTS and I think that is a good thing. Can't wait to see how it developes. And Like BVHog and others have said, the OP should use what he has unless he wants to spend more money. If the OP cannot learn to use the tools then it does not matter IMHO if he uses the TTS or the PV, the results will be the same. As for not dragging the LT around, I think the new TTS interface helps with that. It will data log on it's own. True, you have no screen to look at. That may change, who knows but with either setup, you still need a computer in the end.

Tsani- No worries!     Competition is good and will only make each product better, and your right these always seem to turn into my pops bigger.  I was only stateing my opinion based on my experience.

I spent countless hours/miles with the help of some well known tuners when I was using TTS.  With the base map that Jamie provided.  I got it dialed in fairly quickly.  Keep in mind, I wasn't a big fan of the PV inititally.  Once the Beta became available and I used it along with some recommedations from some of our very own tuners, My bike has never run better, gas mileage has improved by 5mpg, no pinging and pulls like it never has before. Maybe my experience is an annomoly? But it is what I've experienced in a fraction of the time I spent using TTS.

Tre3'

[strokerjlk]

Anyone taking advantage of controlling the afv, learned timing?

[ToBeFrank]

IMO a well designed auto-tune system should take an extra step in data collection and analysis:
Sampled data is examined and used if considered good and tossed out if not.
Any of these systems do that?

They all do. However, there's no way to filter for bad sensor placement or a bad sensor. They can filter out all the places where it's likely to be bad even with a good sensor/placement, but after that the algorithm has to assume the sensor is giving good data (assuming it's within specs, of course).

[HD_04Ultra]

The SKAs (Skills, Knowledge, Abilities) of tuners varies greatly as well as the amount of decision making ability they enjoy at their place of employment.  So does the communication skills of bike owners who take a bike into a tuner and never communicate clearly what their expectations actually are.

It stands to reason the bike owner made performance modifications and wants a dyno tune to gain HP/TQ.  If the tuner can dial in an extra few ponies and/or torque above and beyond the base run then they effectively accomplished the goal IF the bike owner didn't clearly stste what the expectations were going in.  It further stands to reason that there are some very good tuners at dealerships that are hog-tied by service managers and owners who have set pre-established time limits for tunung a bike.  The point is, sometimes you can get a good/competent tuner with all the right SKAs and still not end up with a great tune.  I am sure they hear, "You've got 4 hours into that one and it is putting out more now than it did when you started; get it out of there and get on to the next one."

Do yourself a favor, find a good independent with the right SKAs whose bread is buttered by his (or her) reputation as a good tuner.  Then be perfectly clear that you expect a full tune (not just WOT crap).  Really, how often do you actually drive at WOT?  Stay away from any "tuner" who claims that as long as the VEs were set independantly and it doesn't pull timing at WOT that it's fully tuned.  Eddy brake, part throttle, different loading, keeping the o2 sensors clean, looking for knock retard while rolling on in different gears, etc. is all part of a full tune.  The point here is if you aren't clear about what you expect - well, then if you came away with more HP/TQ than you came in with you got what you paid for.

Don't get hung up comparing your numbers to someone else's with a "similar" build or even to your own build from one dyno to another.  Right now, at 70,000+ miles, my bike runs better at any load, gear, speed, throttle position than I can remember it ever running - and it runs coller to boot.  But I had to wait a couple of weeks and then drive almost 3 hours and 140 miles to get that.  I am not disrespecting anybody who ever tuned my bike but I truly believe some have not been allowed to finish the job due to business decisions that were out of their hands.

I am absolutely confident in the SKAs and the conciousnessness of Brian at Valley Racing.  But then it's his business, and his bread getts buttered by his good reputation.

HD_04ultra

[oldguy]

So far it doesn't seem to be the case since timing is the only area that needs some work.
Ron

You guys sure are good at making assumptions........

Assuming you're talking about my comments, I did a couple fuel tuning runs to tweak the VE numbers to my bike,
overall the changes were reasonable, +/-10 % or less over most of the map, with only a couple "suspect" areas, one of which happens
where I am getting some pinging issues.
Overall though I'm happy with the feel of things fuel wise, it runs very well, and when watch in the Closed Loop integrator signals they stay within +/- 2% during most riding conditions.(yet to be seen if these numbers actually mean anything?? Don't remember seeing these mentioned much, if at all before)

I don't think we can expect all O2 sensors to read exactly the same. I know there are standards that are supposed to be met, but we all know how that works in everything else these days.

So now that I'm happy with the fuel, I'm playing with timing, which is especially important when trying to run 87 octane fuel.

Any theories on pulling timing rather than adding fuel when chasing detonation??
I know what I think works, but I'm open to other opinions.

Your CLI signal is useful in that it tells you how close your ve's are to being at commanded values. The closer to zero you can get, the less adaptation will occur for learned fuel values, in other words, your fuel map will be more stable over time. JMHO

[FLTRI]

...More like a couple of months and 750-1000 miles for mine.

Now that you've done a few how long does it take you to v-tune a bike?
Bob

[rbabos]

...More like a couple of months and 750-1000 miles for mine.

Now that you've done a few how long does it take you to v-tune a bike?
Bob

Not Coyote but generally the ve's whip into shape in one afternoon. It's all the rest of the stuff that eats up time. Best cold start behaviour, best hot starts, and best idle, best iac behaviour for temps. Then there's that pesky problem of where the Delphi won't provide the same afrs between cold and hot weather, so a compromise is reached. I've never found the cause for this even though every sensor has been changed. Not exteme, but noticable.
Vtune is only the first step on some of these pesky engines.
Ron

[Hilly13]

I don't agree vtune the first step there Ron but it sure as heck ain't the last

[FLTRI]

Stock, mild builds do not need lots of ancillary adjustments as with high performance/big builds.
So if you have a high performance build it will take longer than a stockish build.

Once there are numerous calibrations developed for builds, the tuner can browse/try cals until happy with a base cal to start from. This can literally save hours on the dyno.

Time spent on a tune is NOT the issue. It IS all about the quality of the way the bike runs (product) after the tune

IMO the customer is paying for the product, or end result, not the time or method to achieve it.
Just my $.02,
Bob

[Tre_11 FLHX]

Once there are numerous calibrations developed for builds, the tuner can browse/try cals until happy with a base cal to start from.

The above took time to develop, time is money IMHO.  If technology allows a Tuner the ability to be more efficiency, why should the tune cost less?

JMHO,
Tre'

[FLTRI]

Once there are numerous calibrations developed for builds, the tuner can browse/try cals until happy with a base cal to start from.

The above took time to develop, time is money IMHO.  If technology allows a Tuner the ability to be more efficiency, why should the tune cost less?

JMHO,
Tre'

Consider this:
1st bike comes in with 124ci build but no good base maps to choose from. Spend 4 hrs developing the cal. $395
2nd bike comes in with exact same build. Spend 1/2-2 hrs trimming and perfecting the cal for THAT bike. $395

That said is it more fair to charge the first guy $600 for tuning but only $200 for the next guy because the tuner has a head start from the last same build tune?

Should a tuner charge by the hour? That way the customer pays for the tuner's education rather than the tuner learning and perfecting his tuning skills at his own expense?

A typical 120R tune with a known exhaust still takes at least a couple hours of perfecting whereas a 103/255 build with SE slipons may only take 1-1/2 hr to perfect from a really good set of base maps.

IMO, it comes down to what the customer is lead to believe he is paying for.

Is it the 4-6 hours spent on the dyno sometimes learning as he goes? 50-100 pulls before WOT is correct...even for a mild build?
OR is it the end result of the tuner's ability to produce a great running bike without wearing the rear tire, rings, and clutch out figuring out how to get to where he needs to be?


Bob

[HogBag]

I'm sure if Bob or Doc sold the TTS to forum members with a starter map that's been made to closely suit there build the TTS would be easy for the owner to dial in.

[FLTRI]

I remember a guy who sold maps for builds on the internet.  Guaranteed them to be spot on. 
Trouble was...exhaust system differences and injector output vary enough that he was spending most of his spare time changing/modifying customer cals and sending them back and forth.
He finally stopped answering the phone and is no longer selling cals.

Because of the above I'm not interested in pissing anyone off by selling a calibration for something that isn't exactly the same build, including exhaust and injector output...which is why custom mapping is the best way.
It just isn't as easy as it seems. Too many variables to confound the plan...IMO.
Bob

[HogBag]

Bob
I wasn't asking for you or Doc to supply base maps for any bike. My point was if you or Doc choose to help a few on this forum it would make Vtuning easy for most builds. Any tuning product is only as good as the base map in the ECM . My point is most guys on this forum with the PV are getting base maps from A PV supplier making the DIY tuning very easy.   

[1FSTRK]

Purchasing a dyno tune should be viewed the same as purchasing a part. When they sell a part, any part, they set the price so that over time they cover the start up cost, tooling, production cost, marketing, and PROFIT. If you think when you buy a throttle body, a cam, or a piston you are just paying for that piece you are mistaken.
If you agree to the price of a tune and get charged the price you agreed to you should not care if it took 2 seconds or 2 days.

[rbabos]

I'm sure if Bob or Doc sold the TTS to forum members with a starter map that's been made to closely suit there build the TTS would be easy for the owner to dial in.

Finally , someone who gets it.   
Ron

[UltraNutZ]

  "Agree Steve supports his product, but in private conversation with him, He loves him some Steve. Just saying" 

  heehee   

And therein the problem lies, but don't bash him for self love, Woody Allen once said "don't knock masturbation, it's sex with someone I love" Steve has a decent product, the best? debatable but certainly one of the best.  For the OP or anyone else, if you have the TTS then you would be a fool to spend money on the PV same as someone with a super tuner spending money on the TTS thinking it wont produce a great running bike because of what they may have read on the internet.
A large percentage of the problems here could easily be rectified if all the TTS threads were just moved to the vendor section.

no folks.. for us "DIY" tuners, where the problem lies is within the support (or lack there of) you are able to obtain from using the SE specific product.  I don't have any experience with FM, but I read absolutely nothing but good things about them.  I've used a TTS for years and can say that between folks like Doc, Wiz, and Steve himself, among many others who are gracious enough and take the time to help a fellow DIYer, they are willing and more than able to assist a DIY tuner to achieve a good end result.  However, good SE tuners who are on these forums (not just this forum) offer little to any support to a DIYer tuner.  Why is that?  There are tons of people on these forums who are obviously very experienced/professional tuners yet the willingness to help others who are trying to understand this product is futile at best.  Hell, you can't even get support for the SE device from HD themselves! 

I personally don't give a rat's &^% if Steve Cole is stuck on himself or not;  I do know that if I call or email him I get a response and that speaks WONDERS to me.  I read over and over again about Jamie/FM being the same way.  So being an educated person, where do you think my decision will go when I need to buy a tuning product?  Sure as hell not HD.  The only reason I'm trying to learn this thing (SEPST) now is because it came with the bike and I didn't want to spend another $500 on a tuner when I already have one.  But after roughly 850 miles, countless hours, 30+ not so smart tune runs, and the end result being extremely frustrated that my VE tables still look like the Andes Mountains on a bike with a pretty basic configuration, I'm willing to walk away from this thing now.

My point is simply this.  People are going to read the good, the bad, and the ugly and they are going to make their decision on which tuner they want to use/learn with based on this information.  Any idiot can read these forums and determine very quickly that SE is NOT the way to go for a DIYer.  Yes the product is a good product, I know and understand that but the only way you, as a motorcycle owner will be happy with the end results is by doing it the HD way;  throw more $$ at it by bringing it to a professional tuner to have it done right if you're lucky enough to find a good SE tuner.  Around here, I can tell you that SE tuners suck, I've used 5 different ones in the past 4+ years and none of them have a clue as to what they're doing. 

[rbabos]

On the most part I agree. With the experts here the most I got was BS. Never a direct answer to a question over and over just about sent me over the edge.  There are a couple here willing to help but best done one on one comunication. Seems like most pros only give just enough info in order to protect themselves , piss the DIY'r off to the point they seek a dyno tune. While some of us are masochistic enough to spend a gazzilion hours at it , buy more tuning "Potty mouth" to help out, on the most part TTS is not a DIY'r friendly product. Great product but the end user needs to learn a lot especially on a high output engine that's way out of the picture for these generic calibrations.
Ron

[hrdtail78]

DIY. Means do it yourself right?  Funny how that term is thrown around with everything besides learning.  That seems to be, just come to a forum and ask questions to guys that have done the things it takes to learn. Pay for school, buy equipment, spend years learning different tuning strategies, maint. on tuning equipment, update tuning software, (not all is free) build base map folders, learn different things about tuning on almost every tune, the list can on and on.  Knowledge is power. I'm just not going to hand it out to someone else that doesn't want to earn it themselves.  Then there are those that argue with you the whole time you are trying to help for free. Too taxing and isn't worth it.

As for as help with the SE tuners. We might see some of this change with the new update. Posting up a histogram that you are smart tuning off of will help. Until this new update came out. It was a shot in the dark for most of us. But, I do agree. The SE is lacking a bit with help.  There are still folks out there willing to help. Just haven't seen it on forums.

[FLTRI]

DIY. Means do it yourself right?  Funny how that term is thrown around with everything besides learning.  That seems to be, just come to a forum and ask questions to guys that have done the things it takes to learn. Pay for school, buy equipment, spend years learning different tuning strategies, maint. on tuning equipment, update tuning software, (not all is free) build base map folders, learn different things about tuning on almost every tune, the list can on and on.  Knowledge is power. I'm just not going to hand it out to someone else that doesn't want to earn it themselves.  Then there are those that argue with you the whole time you are trying to help for free. Too taxing and isn't worth it.

As for as help with the SE tuners. We might see some of this change with the new update. Posting up a histogram that you are smart tuning off of will help. Until this new update came out. It was a shot in the dark for most of us. But, I do agree. The SE is lacking a bit with help.  There are still folks out there willing to help. Just haven't seen it on forums.

Well stated Jason 
Bob

[Hilly13]

Well I'm glad there are some willing to share, without them this forum would be pointless to the average bloke.

[HV]

 I don't always agree with a few on here...BUT this time I do... if you are looking at tuners simply from a DIY users point of view... the SESPT IS a PITA ...simply put...as far as product support from HD its non existent... you learn yourself or hope the guy using it has a few clues...

Now talking about self tuners.. ( Auto Tunes ) ..by this I'm talking a guy that knows nothing to start but wants to do a " reasonably good tune " himself...on a lightly Mod engine... such as Pipes   full system or slip on ... AC ... perhaps a mild set of cams .... From my experience so far Id have to go with the PV... its VERY easy to use and do a Auto tune...and needs NO Lap top ( I'm assuming the PV has been updated with a Lap Top or PC etc first as any tuner needs to be )  and people like Jamie are available ....It can be done all with the unit provided

The TTS from what I see on here works great after a LOT of help and support..and yes its very available on here thanks to Steve and other experts... it has lots of built in features to work with IF you know where they are and how to use them

  Now before some of you get offended etc... ALL of these tuners will work on a Dyno...and in the hands of a Dyno guy that knows how to use ANY of them and is Experienced ! with the one he is using  ...... the tunes should be and in most cases WILL be Superior to just an Auto tune or V Tune or Smart tune etc ....

  Do NOT buy any of these and think that just bolting it on will make Great Thing Happen ....How far you go with any will depend on how much you want to Learn  ... Read ...and how much you can depend on someone helping you with things you do not know ....

[Steve Cole]

I've stayed out of this thread as it just turns into a problem when I point things out. I keep hearing this NO Laptop for a PV and wonder how the tune gets into the PV, You still need to use a Computer or Laptop to do it with and that is with the latest release of software too. A customer just came by today with one and I got to look it over and he showed me how it all worked. I asked him could he do it not using a computer or laptop and his answer was NO you still need to use one but not as much as before.

As for learning you have to do that with any system and they all take time, but isn't that the whole point of a DIY application? Your willing to spend some of your time to learn and use the tools that are supplied with the product. I also find it funny that each product has copied just about every new feature from what Mastertune has had out prior to any of the others and as we continue to add features I'm sure that's not going to change any. Sure they change it around a little but it's an attempt at adding the same features we already have at the time. We got behind with getting the CAN equipped bikes out but that's over and done now so we will go back to getting new ideas and features added to allow for faster and better tunes for all of the Tuners as well as the DIY guys out there.

I guess when you have the number one selling tuning product you get a bigger target put on your product than the others.

[HV]

With the one I have you can do an auto tune ...with the ves filled using the screen on the PV..add the corrections to the original map..and reflash it all with the PV.. NOT Using a Lap top... now if you want to edit the ves Manually  ...blend them manually etc..thats a diff story ..not sure what unit you saw..

[HV]

As ANY tuner..you first down load the base tunes with Computer ( Not ONLY a Lap Top )  YES 

[wolf_59]

  ALL of these tuners will work on a Dyno...and in the hands of a Dyno guy that knows how to use ANY of them and is Experienced ! with the one he is using  ...... the tunes should be and in most cases WILL be Superior to just an Auto tune or V Tune or Smart tune etc ....

  Do NOT buy any of these and think that just bolting it on will make Great Thing Happen ....How far you go with any will depend on how much you want to Learn  ... Read ...and how much you can depend on someone helping you with things you do not know ....

Very well put!

Well I'm glad there are some willing to share, without them this forum would be pointless to the average bloke.

Absolutely although they don't come right out and tell you exactly what you need to do they do offer advice to get you looking and thinking and thats all I've ever asked for because I wanted to be able to do it myself after paying for tunes that didn't work and because of these people on here that were willing to offer advice and a lot of trial and error I have my bikes running better than I ever thought they could and did it without blowing them up or melting them down
Many Thanks to those that take the time to offer advice

[Steve Cole]

With the one I have you can do an auto tune ...with the ves filled using the screen on the PV..add the corrections to the original map..and reflash it all with the PV.. NOT Using a Lap top... now if you want to edit the ves Manually  ...blend them manually etc..thats a diff story ..not sure what unit you saw..

What I saw was a PV that was updated with the latest revision according to the customer and had there little shade option over the top of the display. Sure you can do a few things on the PV itself but many functions still have to be edited with the use of a Computer of some sort. It would be an educated guess on my part but from what I saw I would say to use over 50% of the functions in the software package required you to STILL USE A COMPUTER.

It is a nice looking unit but it was very hard to read in the sunshine and a bit small on my old eyes to try and read just sitting on the bike itself in some of the screens. I am sure it is just right for some but others have already posted what I saw for the first time now myself.

[Coyote]

It is a nice looking unit but it was very hard to read in the sunshine and a bit small on my old eyes to try and read just sitting on the bike itself in some of the screens. I am sure it is just right for some but others have already posted what I saw for the first time now myself.

I had to use a PC, wireless access point and cell phone screen to do my Vtune. 

I got my PV up and running today. I can't comment too much as I have not done a Autotune yet but the software and device, so far, are cool as heck. The screen, so far, is very easy to see and much better than my Droid on the windshield.  Fuel Moto already sent me a base map to start with.

I'm not a dyno tuner, just a user, but it will be interesting to see where it goes. I got a good tune from my TTS but it did take a long time to get there. And while I'm not concerned about warranty, I really don't like the ECM being locked, so if I can get as good a tune out of the PV, I'll take that one. If not, I'll go back to the TTS tune.

I'm documenting as much as I can and I hope that having used both on the road for tuning, I can offer some good info with regards to the DIY tune.

[hrdtail78]

I know, a better mounting system would help.

[mayor]

I know, a better mounting system would help.

  yea, probably a little.   

[Steve Cole]

It is a nice looking unit but it was very hard to read in the sunshine and a bit small on my old eyes to try and read just sitting on the bike itself in some of the screens. I am sure it is just right for some but others have already posted what I saw for the first time now myself.

The screen, so far, is very easy to see and much better than my Droid on the windshield. 

I held my Motorola Electrify Droid phone right next to the PV screen and without taking measurements to be exact, they were the same size. So if you had issues seeing the Droid phone screen, the PV screen is going to be about the same. Both are hard to see in Sunlight and when trying to place a lot of data (ie: VE data)  on the screen becomes very small in text size and hard to read. We looked into the cell phone size displays plenty and I really wish they were better but there just not good outside in sunlight at an arms reach away. Maybe they will figure it out someday but for now they are just hard to read and I'm sure that is also the reason PV came out with the optional hood cover for the PV display.

I would also say since you have learned to tune with the TTS unit most of what you need to know to use the PV, you already learned on the TTS, so it would make it a lot easier for you to use. Had you never use one then I think the learning curve would be much different on the PV.

[HV]

One thing I did notice...when viewing the VE  histogram screen as its working ..its a dark green with white numbers accented as they fill or check a cell.... I had no prob seeing it as I rode at speed ..although having it mounted directly in front of me instead of off to one side would have been better ...that's a simple deal of moving my mount ... I may even mount it on the RG Fairing as it does not even move as the bars are turned ... something to play with in the future

[HV]

I would also say since you have learned to tune with the TTS unit most of what you need to know to use the PV, you already learned on the TTS, so it would make it a lot easier for you to use. Had you never use one then I think the learning curve would be much different on the PV..


I'm used to a SESPT ...its no where close to either a TTS of PV... Yes I'm having a time learning the tuning with the PV...   Id like to see a bit more detailed examples on how to blend VEs etc... the Auto Tune is self explaining .. manual editing is another matter

[Coyote]

It is a nice looking unit but it was very hard to read in the sunshine and a bit small on my old eyes to try and read just sitting on the bike itself in some of the screens. I am sure it is just right for some but others have already posted what I saw for the first time now myself.

The screen, so far, is very easy to see and much better than my Droid on the windshield. 

I held my Motorola Electrify Droid phone right next to the PV screen and without taking measurements to be exact, they were the same size. So if you had issues seeing the Droid phone screen, the PV screen is going to be about the same. Both are hard to see in Sunlight and when trying to place a lot of data (ie: VE data)  on the screen becomes very small in text size and hard to read. We looked into the cell phone size displays plenty and I really wish they were better but there just not good outside in sunlight at an arms reach away. Maybe they will figure it out someday but for now they are just hard to read and I'm sure that is also the reason PV came out with the optional hood cover for the PV display.

I would also say since you have learned to tune with the TTS unit most of what you need to know to use the PV, you already learned on the TTS, so it would make it a lot easier for you to use. Had you never use one then I think the learning curve would be much different on the PV.

Well my PV screen seems much easier to me to read than my phone screen. That doesn't even address the lag time using a PC to Phone desktop mirroring software. I won't debate this further until I've run the PV on the road as I like to be fair and not judge things I haven't actually used.

I do find it interesting that you would comment on a product that you have not actually used. But I guess an educated guess is good enough?   

It would not surprise me at all if those that dyno tune for a living prefer one device and those that tune on the road prefer another. The requirements are much different, right?

I also won't comment yet on the user interface and licensing models but there are striking differences between the two, this coming from someone that sells products requiring similar features and licensing.

I'm used to a SESPT ...its no where close to either a TTS of PV... Yes I'm having a time learning the tuning with the PV...   Id like to see a bit more detailed examples on how to blend VEs etc... the Auto Tune is self explaining .. manual editing is another matter

Another interesting viewpoint. I was told today that the biggest complaint on PV with home tuners was the documentation. Seems to be true for you Brian but it's good to hear. I was told they were working on it.

[hrdtail78]

Having used all three.  I find them all the same. Sure you have to figure how to get where in the software. But you still look at main fuel table, VE based, some type of enrichment, enleanment, warmup tables, injector size, rpm limit.....  Having tuned enough with one. Figuring out a third one that does the same but less, is easier than starting from scratch.

When comparing the cal your working on to the last is available in all products. How to do it different. Some are better than others. Some are busy on the screen and some look like fisher price designed it.

If a product can log data. A program can be written to compare to the cal it was ran on and make changes. There's even downloadable programs that will do this if you feed them data. How data is collected and how it is "washed" into a new cal is my concern, and who does this best will help us all get better running bikes.

[tdkkart]

Well my PV screen seems much easier to me to read than my phone screen. That doesn't even address the lag time using a PC to Phone desktop mirroring software. I won't debate this further until I've run the PV on the road as I like to be fair and not judge things I haven't actually used.

I've probably got 1000mi on my bike with the PV mounted to the bars. I am not using the sunshield "eye brow" IMO it's pretty easy to see 95% of the time, the only time I have real trouble is when the sun is directly behind me. I've run 1/2 a dozen or so autotune runs, had no issues seeing the autotune screen, though I wasn't actually trying to actively read the screen, all I needed to see was where the cursor was on the screen which worked fine.

What I REALLY like is the ability to have the display on the bike permanently. I'm a gauge nut, I like the fact that I can see virtually anything coming out of the ECM(30-something signals), configured any way I want, at the touch of a button while riding. I've got 4 or 5 screens of 4 and 6 gauges setup now that I can scroll through at any time.
I also like the fact that I can data log any or all of the above signals at any time while riding. Each of the above screens has a "start log" button at the bottom. Hear a ping while riding up hill at 75mph?? Hit the log button to start recording, duplicate the conditions to make it ping again while recording, stop the log. Start/stop the logging as many times as you want while riding. When you get a chance you can back and look at the data on the screen, or on laptop, tweak the timing or fuel maps, and then reload the tune. I've recorded 6-8 different short segments while out for an afternoon ride, and then tweaked the map while watching TV that night.

At this point I am VERY happy that my TTS is sitting on the shelf while the PV is on the bike. The bike ran decent, but with some hiccups, with the TTS maps, but it runs AWESOME since installing the PV. Very smooth under all riding conditions so far. Admittedly I probably didn't spend as much time as I should have with the TTS, primarily because it was such a pain in the ass to setup all the equipment needed, only to have something crash or lockup in the middle of a data run, something the PV has yet to do. Now I can initiate a tuning run at the touch of a couple buttons while sitting at a stop light with the OL on the back.

[07heri]

I wouldn't mind paying a guy if he was competent.  But it seems finding competent tuners is the chore...

As the bike's owner, that IS your job.  If you needed eye surgery, would you not seek out the best surgeon?  There's probably no one that has any more of a vested interest in your eyes or bike then you!

There are far too many posts here that would suggest there are quite a few competent tuners around.  Now if they aren't conveniently located and getting to them is just a bit of a chore for you, then settle for mediocre and call it a day.

Comparing ones health to a piece of metal, and putting equal importance on both is ridiculous.  For starters, some readers here might just have a life.  Some might not want to spend weeks, months or years screwing around with tuning a bike.  Some of us don't sit alone in our garage looking at a motorcycle because we have nothing else to live for.  Thank you for your concern but I'd prefer to pay someone to get the tune done and get back to more important things in life.  Does TTS do exactly what it says it will do.  Yes.  Is it a royal pain in the azz to use?  It definitely is.  If there was a tuner in my area I would probably stay with TTS.  But there isn't, so if another product, such as the PV makes this process easier, quicker, and less of a hassle then.......TTS will go in the bottom draw of the tool chest.  Based on what I'm reading TTS isn't the only game in town anymore.  I guess it all depends on ones priorities.   

[Hilly13]

Having used all three.  I find them all the same. Sure you have to figure how to get where in the software. But you still look at main fuel table, VE based, some type of enrichment, enleanment, warmup tables, injector size, rpm limit.....  Having tuned enough with one. Figuring out a third one that does the same but less, is easier than starting from scratch.

When comparing the cal your working on to the last is available in all products. How to do it different. Some are better than others. Some are busy on the screen and some look like fisher price designed it.

If a product can log data. A program can be written to compare to the cal it was ran on and make changes. There's even downloadable programs that will do this if you feed them data. How data is collected and how it is "washed" into a new cal is my concern, and who does this best will help us all get better running bikes.

thats the guts of it

[mayor]

I've stayed out of this thread as it just turns into a problem when I point things out. I keep hearing this NO Laptop for a PV and wonder how the tune gets into the PV, You still need to use a Computer or Laptop to do it with and that is with the latest release of software too. A customer just came by today with one and I got to look it over and he showed me how it all worked. I asked him could he do it not using a computer or laptop and his answer was NO you still need to use one but not as much as before.

With the one I have you can do an auto tune ...with the ves filled using the screen on the PV..add the corrections to the original map..and reflash it all with the PV.. NOT Using a Lap top... now if you want to edit the ves Manually  ...blend them manually etc..thats a diff story ..not sure what unit you saw..

What I saw was a PV that was updated with the latest revision according to the customer and had there little shade option over the top of the display. Sure you can do a few things on the PV itself but many functions still have to be edited with the use of a Computer of some sort. It would be an educated guess on my part but from what I saw I would say to use over 50% of the functions in the software package required you to STILL USE A COMPUTER.

I think you missed the benifit with the Power Vision entirely, whether purposely or unintentionally, but the benefit with the PV is you don't need a computer while on the motorcycle.     If you think that the benefit that folks are seaking is not to need a computer, you are about a decade or so past technology.  The issue isn't whether a computer is needed, but rather whether a computer needs to be on the bike while riding down the road.  I'll take an guess that 99% of the people who frequent this site use a computer, so the computer itself probably isn't the issue.  I don't think the average person cares whether you need a computer to tune your motorcycle, but a majority seem to care whether they have to figure a way of hauling that computer around on their bike.  I have found this to be true no matter what tuning system is used.  Whether it's due to not having a laptop, or not wanting to take a risk of messing up an expensive lap top, folks would just rather not carry a laptop on their bike. 

[HV]

Looking at it from a Techy Nerdy point of view ...( ya mine ) .....The PV just plain does sooooo many trick things ON the bike wile riding all by itself ....its just fun to play with..  ....  But I also do not have a Dyno at my disposal to use any time.. either ... 

[oldguy]

What I want to see happen, is a PV that you can write an open loop map for values from idle kpa up to say 50 or 60 kpa, and then the autotune running active so you have closed loop control thereafter for whatever afr you command. It would be nice to have this for the lower kpa as well, but we all know what reversion will do

[EGNBLUE]

...Thank you for your concern but I'd prefer to pay someone to get the tune done and get back to more important things in life.  Does TTS do exactly what it says it will do.  Yes.  Is it a royal pain in the azz to use?  It definitely is.  If there was a tuner in my area I would probably stay with TTS.  But there isn't, so if another product, such as the PV makes this process easier, quicker, and less of a hassle then.......TTS will go in the bottom draw of the tool chest.  Based on what I'm reading TTS isn't the only game in town anymore.  I guess it all depends on ones priorities.   

OK, I get it...you're not a doer.  The easy, don't-want-to-really-get-involved, let-someone-else-do-it kind of life is what you're all about.

Just a suggestion since you find all this tuning stuff a royal pain in the azz (your words) and you surely have more important things in life (again, your words) to tend to, get yourself a little Honda Civic...might be a whole lot less strain on your life

[UltraNutZ]

How far you go with any will depend on how much you want to Learn  ... Read ...and how much you can depend on someone helping you with things you do not know ....

BINGO!  I'm one of those people that's willing to learn and willing to make the effort to do so because I know in the long run, it will help me better understand what I'm doing and what my end result will be.  I am not one of these clowns that get on these forums and say hey... "i have a 110 build with cams, true duals, ported and polished heads.  Can you give me a map please"  Believe me I understand and respect the lack of educated responses on that kind of mentality.  My maps and smart tune runs are posted.  Simply looking for advice on these various forums on how to understand what I'm doing wrong and smooth out the VE tables that I've already spent countless hours/miles on and only getting BS responses about what I should be using for a tuning device is where I get frustrated.

[Sam45]

I've stayed out of this thread as it just turns into a problem when I point things out. I keep hearing this NO Laptop for a PV and wonder how the tune gets into the PV, You still need to use a Computer or Laptop to do it with and that is with the latest release of software too. A customer just came by today with one and I got to look it over and he showed me how it all worked. I asked him could he do it not using a computer or laptop and his answer was NO you still need to use one but not as much as before.

With the one I have you can do an auto tune ...with the ves filled using the screen on the PV..add the corrections to the original map..and reflash it all with the PV.. NOT Using a Lap top... now if you want to edit the ves Manually  ...blend them manually etc..thats a diff story ..not sure what unit you saw..

What I saw was a PV that was updated with the latest revision according to the customer and had there little shade option over the top of the display. Sure you can do a few things on the PV itself but many functions still have to be edited with the use of a Computer of some sort. It would be an educated guess on my part but from what I saw I would say to use over 50% of the functions in the software package required you to STILL USE A COMPUTER.

I think you missed the benifit with the Power Vision entirely, whether purposely or unintentionally, but the benefit with the PV is you don't need a computer while on the motorcycle.     If you think that the benefit that folks are seaking is not to need a computer, you are about a decade or so past technology.  The issue isn't whether a computer is needed, but rather whether a computer needs to be on the bike while riding down the road.  I'll take an guess that 99% of the people who frequent this site use a computer, so the computer itself probably isn't the issue.  I don't think the average person cares whether you need a computer to tune your motorcycle, but a majority seem to care whether they have to figure a way of hauling that computer around on their bike.  I have found this to be true no matter what tuning system is used.  Whether it's due to not having a laptop, or not wanting to take a risk of messing up an expensive lap top, folks would just rather not carry a laptop on their bike.

That is exactly it on the computer part of it.  I prefer even with the update of the PV auto tune to use the WinPv to compare tunes and keep and eye on the tunes.

[tdkkart]

What I want to see happen, is a PV that you can write an open loop map for values from idle kpa up to say 50 or 60 kpa, and then the autotune running active so you have closed loop control thereafter for whatever afr you command. It would be nice to have this for the lower kpa as well, but we all know what reversion will do

Sounds like what you want, if you want to shoot in the dark for you part throttle settings, is a PCIII.
I'm not sure there is a product on the market that can do closed loop in the upper kpa ranges, unless the Thundermax can??
Dynojet/PV has the option of autotuning with widebands, but you can't do closed loop with that setup.

[mayor]

I'm not sure there is a product on the market that can do closed loop in the upper kpa ranges, unless the Thundermax can??

yes, the Tmax is 100% closed loop.  Daytona Twin Tec also makes a system that is 100% close loop as well, and that one has MAP based timing. 

[Steve Cole]

It is a nice looking unit but it was very hard to read in the sunshine and a bit small on my old eyes to try and read just sitting on the bike itself in some of the screens. I am sure it is just right for some but others have already posted what I saw for the first time now myself.

The screen, so far, is very easy to see and much better than my Droid on the windshield. 

I held my Motorola Electrify Droid phone right next to the PV screen and without taking measurements to be exact, they were the same size. So if you had issues seeing the Droid phone screen, the PV screen is going to be about the same. Both are hard to see in Sunlight and when trying to place a lot of data (ie: VE data)  on the screen becomes very small in text size and hard to read. We looked into the cell phone size displays plenty and I really wish they were better but there just not good outside in sunlight at an arms reach away. Maybe they will figure it out someday but for now they are just hard to read and I'm sure that is also the reason PV came out with the optional hood cover for the PV display.

I would also say since you have learned to tune with the TTS unit most of what you need to know to use the PV, you already learned on the TTS, so it would make it a lot easier for you to use. Had you never use one then I think the learning curve would be much different on the PV.

Well my PV screen seems much easier to me to read than my phone screen. That doesn't even address the lag time using a PC to Phone desktop mirroring software. I won't debate this further until I've run the PV on the road as I like to be fair and not judge things I haven't actually used.

I do find it interesting that you would comment on a product that you have not actually used. But I guess an educated guess is good enough?   

Yet that is just what you are doing here. If you read what I typed I said the customer took me through it on his bike, so yes I have seen it and watched it outside not in a shop. I sat on the bike and held my phone right next to it and looked at them both and they were about the same to read. I do find it interesting that you would comment on something without reading what I typed about it. But I guess an educated guess is good enough?   


As for carrying a computer around on the bike I understand that part just fine but to call it NO COMPUTER NEEDED is going way beyond that. Remember that the SESPT came out with the ability to record without a computer before us all, some people like it and some people don't. I understand it and it is a feature we will be adding to our new units. The old units are not capable of it but the new units were designed so that they can be used as a flight recorder which is what the feature has been called in the auto industry for the past 30 years or so.

[FSG]

...  If you read what I typed I said the customer took me through it on his bike, so yes I have seen it and watched it outside not in a shop. ...

NO, what you said is quoted below.

....  A customer just came by today with one and I got to look it over and he showed me how it all worked.  ....

[Jamie Long]

The functionality of the Power Vision screen was designed for a few different reasons

• Store, read, & flash calibrations
• Display & Log Data
• Populate & Apply tune corrections
• Adjust various tune parameters

Full access to all of the PV tuning tables & parameters is available within the WinPv software which is very comprehensive and easy to use, however you have a wide range of options using the Power Vision display as well including the new enhanced Auto Tune, this includes logging, populating, and applying corrections right on the display using the factory O2 sensors or using Wideband sensors with the optional Wideband Auto Tune kit. For those interested here is the list of tune item's available under Quick Tune on the PV display that do not require a computer:

General – Idle Offset, Rev Limit, and Reset Adaptive Fuel Tables
Config – ACR, Heated o2, VSS, Active Intake, Active Exhaust
Tweaks – Adaptive, Closed Loop, Knock Control, EITMS
Fuel – 6 ranges of adjustment; Low, Med, High, Global, Decel, Lug (Fuel ADj Range -25 to 25% of base fuel map)
Spark - Low, Med, High, Global, Decel, Lug (SparkAdj Range  -5 to 5 degrees)
VE - Low, Med, High, Global, Decel, Lug (VE Adju Range -25 to 25 ve units (%)


Most have found Power Vision to work very well for their application and there will continue to be improvements as we move forward with the PV display features, the WinPv software, as well as getting PV integrated into the dyno Winpep software. I assure you Dynojet is in this for the long run, they have an excellent team committed to Power Vision and have several very cool features & strategies already in the testing phase. Fuel Moto has been very fortunate to have been involved with Power Vision from the very beginning as a technical partner. Many of the updates, features, and improvements we have seen over the last 2 years have been a direct result of the feedback and info from customers and working with the product everyday. We promise Power Vision will only get better. There are also significant improvements in documentation, manuals, and tuning guides on the way, and we are also working on a few different video's going over how to use the Auto Tune and other PV features. If anyone has any questions, feedback, or comments you are also welcome to contact us at 877-729-4754 or email jamie@fuelmotousa.com and we are here to help 100%

[strokerjlk]

Jamie
Is it possible to, have a external monitor output, or USB to computer output from vision.
I really would like to look at another monitor , without running it through winpep.

[Jamie Long]

Jamie
Is it possible to, have a external monitor output, or USB to computer output from vision.
I really would like to look at another monitor , without running it through winpep.

It is not possible, at least for now to output to a monitor. Is there a reason you do not want to run PV thru WinPep? this allows you to put the tune data, ECM data, and dyno data all right there together. This opens up the ability to develop far more powerful software applications rather than running different programs (although you will need a Dynojet dyno). There is also new PV logging software that should be available in the not so distant future.

[mayor]

is the option to run the PV through the WinPep going to be around $500 like all the other Dynojet dyno accessories? 

[HV]

Something that I think would be nice if possable ...when you connect it to a PC or Lap Top with the USB..it would open like it does connected to your bike...and let you go through tables and screens .. not to change anything ( although editing a data run that way would be nice )   but just to see whats available aside from it just saying .. " connected to USB "

[Jamie Long]

is the option to run the PV through the WinPep going to be around $500 like all the other Dynojet dyno accessories?

At this time it is not known what will be required or specific pricing. It may likely require a new stack or module to read the CAN bus from the PV.

[mayor]

so $500 might actually be on the cheap side.      

[Jamie Long]

Something that I think would be nice if possable ...when you connect it to a PC or Lap Top with the USB..it would open like it does connected to your bike...and let you go through tables and screens .. not to change anything ( although editing a data run that way would be nice )   but just to see whats available aside from it just saying .. " connected to USB "

This is already a PV feature , when your PV is connected to the WinPv software you can go to PowerVision>Diagnostic/Test Functions>Exit PC Link Mode and this will allows you work with the PV without being connected to the bike.   

[HV]

There I learned something new for today     

[tdkkart]

There I learned something new for today     

Heh, me too......

[strokerjlk]

Jamie
Is it possible to, have a external monitor output, or USB to computer output from vision.
I really would like to look at another monitor , without running it through winpep.

It is not possible, at least for now to output to a monitor. Is there a reason you do not want to run PV thru WinPep? this allows you to put the tune data, ECM data, and dyno data all right there together. This opens up the ability to develop far more powerful software applications rather than running different programs (although you will need a Dynojet dyno). There is also new PV logging software that should be available in the not so distant future.

a few reasons Jamie
I already run 9 functions on the winpep screen.
I would rather look at two screens like I currently do. tuning/dyno
I dont want to add anything to my stack.
I guess I dont understand?? pc5 with autotune, runs externally with hardware/software

[Jamie Long]

a few reasons Jamie
I already run 9 functions on the winpep screen.
I would rather look at two screens like I currently do. tuning/dyno
I dont want to add anything to my stack.
I guess I dont understand?? pc5 with autotune, runs externally with hardware/software

While I cannot get too much into the specific details, a future Winpep "concept" is to allow the dyno software to integrate Dynojet products such as Power Vision, Power Commander, Wideband Commander, as well as the dyno all into one software suite, this dyno software will be will be completely different than what we have now. Having all of these channels available within the dyno software is huge and would offer big advancements to the dyno tuner, a key advantage for Dynojet is that they are the manufacturer for both the dyno as well as the tuning platforms they are integrating. Also note each product will continue to have it's own comprehensive software as well.

[Onthefence]

I've stayed out of this thread as it just turns into a problem when I point things out. I keep hearing this NO Laptop for a PV and wonder how the tune gets into the PV, You still need to use a Computer or Laptop to do it with and that is with the latest release of software too. A customer just came by today with one and I got to look it over and he showed me how it all worked. I asked him could he do it not using a computer or laptop and his answer was NO you still need to use one but not as much as before.

Dude!!!  Not carrying the laptop to record is huge for those that are diy'ers.  It may not mean a thing for Dyno tuners...  You can knock the pv all day.  But, it's what the market wants.  If you aren't interested in that market, why knock the other products?  If you are, you see the feature bar that you need to exceed.   

[HogBag]

Dude!!!  Not carrying the laptop to record is huge for those that are diy'ers.  It may not mean a thing for Dyno tuners...  You can knock the pv all day.  But, it's what the market wants.  If you aren't interested in that market, why knock the other products?  If you are, you see the feature bar that you need to exceed.   

The Dude has been on top of the tuning market for 10 years and knows what people want with a home tuner.
It took them 10 years to raise the level 

[BVHOG]

Dude!!!  Not carrying the laptop to record is huge for those that are diy'ers.  It may not mean a thing for Dyno tuners...  You can knock the pv all day.  But, it's what the market wants.  If you aren't interested in that market, why knock the other products?  If you are, you see the feature bar that you need to exceed.   

The Dude has been on top of the tuning market for 10 years and knows what people want with a home tuner.
It took them 10 years to raise the level 

The "Dude" was the last of the major four to service the softail tbw stuff, hardly puts him on top of the tuning market.

[Hilly13]

Dude!!!  Not carrying the laptop to record is huge for those that are diy'ers.  It may not mean a thing for Dyno tuners...  You can knock the pv all day.  But, it's what the market wants.  If you aren't interested in that market, why knock the other products?  If you are, you see the feature bar that you need to exceed.   

The Dude has been on top of the tuning market for 10 years and knows what people want with a home tuner.
It took them 10 years to raise the level 

The "Dude" was the last of the major four to service the softail tbw stuff, hardly puts him on top of the tuning market.

Time will tell, got my money on Steve though, yes yes yes I know

[rbabos]

While packing a laptop on a bagger might not be a big deal, I found it to be a pain in the ass with my softail. I have ghost brackets but still a pain with getting it all set up and it takes quite a while between vtune , data logging, on and on. Laptop in and out of the bag, recharge, go again. Where the PV caught my interest is when I was planning on getting a v rod, no bags and I wasn't about to put on a packpack and look like a fruit. Can you imagine pulling the pack off , pulling the lap out rewriting over and over? My Dell would become a football in short order.    It would be so much easier to poke away at it on the bars and tweek later with the lap. Not saying the PV is better but in some cases as in Sportsters, rods and bagless softails a lot friendlier to use as it can stay on the bike for extended periods and fine tune as you see fit.
Ron

[HogBag]

I had a few beers under my belt when I wrote my reply to onthefence and I should have stayed out of it.
My bikes going great with the old TTS and I have no plans on changing to the new M2 unit at this stage.
Time will tell as Hilly stated. 

[Onthefence]

I had a few beers under my belt when I wrote my reply to onthefence and I should have stayed out of it.
My bikes going great with the old TTS and I have no plans on changing to the new M2 unit at this stage.
Time will tell as Hilly stated. 

I am willing to stipulate that TTS has been king of the mountain.  And certainly wasn't suggesting that anyone with a TTS throw it away and start over with something else. I was just commenting that knocking the other guy isn't improving the TTS brand.  I am not suggesting that Dynojet is the end all be all either.  But to totally discount the features as somehow oversold or useless is nuts.... 

Just my opinion.  Each is free to run their business and product development at their own pace.  And the sales figures will determine who is giving the market what they want. 

[HogBag]

Onthefence
Its a ongoing story on this forum but you either love or hate the TTS tuner. Sorry for jumping in with a gut full of grog its hard not to after the last few years. I'm sure the PV works great with members giving great feed back on the system. I just wish a few of the guys could get together for a ride and a few drinks to air some of the name calling over the years. The thing that's funny is we all love our bikes and love to help each other out with builds but as soon as we talk tuners we get defensive of our chosen tuner . Kinda like religion 
I have to learn not to post after drinking alcohol.
Cheers all     

[Durwood]

My last two bikes were tuned with TTS and I am a very satisfied customer...

However, I agree with on Onthefence,downgrading the competition when they obviously have a viable alternative is counter productive, and will tend to turn off the guys that are in fact, "on the fence"..JMO.

[hdmanillac]

Onthefence
Its a ongoing story on this forum but you either love or hate the TTS tuner. Sorry for jumping in with a gut full of grog its hard not to after the last few years. I'm sure the PV works great with members giving great feed back on the system. I just wish a few of the guys could get together for a ride and a few drinks to air some of the name calling over the years. The thing that's funny is we all love our bikes and love to help each other out with builds but as soon as we talk tuners we get defensive of our chosen tuner . Kinda like religion 
I have to learn not to post after drinking alcohol.
Cheers all     

I agree with that !

[UltraNutZ]

While packing a laptop on a bagger might not be a big deal, I found it to be a pain in the ass with my softail. I have ghost brackets but still a pain with getting it all set up and it takes quite a while between vtune , data logging, on and on. Laptop in and out of the bag, recharge, go again. Where the PV caught my interest is when I was planning on getting a v rod, no bags and I wasn't about to put on a packpack and look like a fruit. Can you imagine pulling the pack off , pulling the lap out rewriting over and over? My Dell would become a football in short order.    It would be so much easier to poke away at it on the bars and tweek later with the lap. Not saying the PV is better but in some cases as in Sportsters, rods and bagless softails a lot friendlier to use as it can stay on the bike for extended periods and fine tune as you see fit.
Ron

get a win7 tablet, mount it to an old broken mirror (any HD dealership will give you a stock mirror from their junk pile if you ask them nicely) on the left handlebar, run a USB cable from the tuner to the tablet, set it to vtune, smart tune, or whatever and be on your way.  Pull over in a parking lot, mix and adjust to your hearts desire the tables and reflash the ECM right there.  Easy Peasy!

[rbabos]

While packing a laptop on a bagger might not be a big deal, I found it to be a pain in the ass with my softail. I have ghost brackets but still a pain with getting it all set up and it takes quite a while between vtune , data logging, on and on. Laptop in and out of the bag, recharge, go again. Where the PV caught my interest is when I was planning on getting a v rod, no bags and I wasn't about to put on a packpack and look like a fruit. Can you imagine pulling the pack off , pulling the lap out rewriting over and over? My Dell would become a football in short order.    It would be so much easier to poke away at it on the bars and tweek later with the lap. Not saying the PV is better but in some cases as in Sportsters, rods and bagless softails a lot friendlier to use as it can stay on the bike for extended periods and fine tune as you see fit.
Ron

get a win7 tablet, mount it to an old broken mirror (any HD dealership will give you a stock mirror from their junk pile if you ask them nicely) on the left handlebar, run a USB cable from the tuner to the tablet, set it to vtune, smart tune, or whatever and be on your way.  Pull over in a parking lot, mix and adjust to your hearts desire the tables and reflash the ECM right there.  Easy Peasy!

You forgot to add..... take off my cool harley shades and put on my reading glasses to see it.
Ron

[Coyote]

You forgot to add..... take off my cool harley shades and put on my reading glasses to see it.
Ron

I popped my lenses out of the frame and rtv'd them under my cool harley shades. 

[UltraNutZ]

While packing a laptop on a bagger might not be a big deal, I found it to be a pain in the ass with my softail. I have ghost brackets but still a pain with getting it all set up and it takes quite a while between vtune , data logging, on and on. Laptop in and out of the bag, recharge, go again. Where the PV caught my interest is when I was planning on getting a v rod, no bags and I wasn't about to put on a packpack and look like a fruit. Can you imagine pulling the pack off , pulling the lap out rewriting over and over? My Dell would become a football in short order.    It would be so much easier to poke away at it on the bars and tweek later with the lap. Not saying the PV is better but in some cases as in Sportsters, rods and bagless softails a lot friendlier to use as it can stay on the bike for extended periods and fine tune as you see fit.
Ron

get a win7 tablet, mount it to an old broken mirror (any HD dealership will give you a stock mirror from their junk pile if you ask them nicely) on the left handlebar, run a USB cable from the tuner to the tablet, set it to vtune, smart tune, or whatever and be on your way.  Pull over in a parking lot, mix and adjust to your hearts desire the tables and reflash the ECM right there.  Easy Peasy!

You forgot to add..... take off my cool harley shades and put on my reading glasses to see it.
Ron

yeah sorry guys.. didn't think about all you old farts!  :-)

[rbabos]

While packing a laptop on a bagger might not be a big deal, I found it to be a pain in the ass with my softail. I have ghost brackets but still a pain with getting it all set up and it takes quite a while between vtune , data logging, on and on. Laptop in and out of the bag, recharge, go again. Where the PV caught my interest is when I was planning on getting a v rod, no bags and I wasn't about to put on a packpack and look like a fruit. Can you imagine pulling the pack off , pulling the lap out rewriting over and over? My Dell would become a football in short order.    It would be so much easier to poke away at it on the bars and tweek later with the lap. Not saying the PV is better but in some cases as in Sportsters, rods and bagless softails a lot friendlier to use as it can stay on the bike for extended periods and fine tune as you see fit.
Ron

get a win7 tablet, mount it to an old broken mirror (any HD dealership will give you a stock mirror from their junk pile if you ask them nicely) on the left handlebar, run a USB cable from the tuner to the tablet, set it to vtune, smart tune, or whatever and be on your way.  Pull over in a parking lot, mix and adjust to your hearts desire the tables and reflash the ECM right there.  Easy Peasy!

You forgot to add..... take off my cool harley shades and put on my reading glasses to see it.
Ron

yeah sorry guys.. didn't think about all you old farts!  :-)

We just got the heads up on what you will experience eventually
Ron