Powervision over TTS

[FLTRI]

Something to consider:
Most ALL closed loop tuning and running issues stem from improper O2 signalling.

It makes absolutely NO DIFFERENCE which auto-tune system..PV/smartune/v-tune/t-max, EMS, any system must use the EXACT same O2 data...good AND bad!

IMO a well designed auto-tune system should take an extra step in data collection and analysis:
Sampled data is examined and used if considered good and tossed out if not.
Any of these systems do that?
Bob
PS - The statement: Garbage in Garbage out...still applies.

[FLTRI]

More like a couple of months and 750-1000 miles for mine.

Now that you've got a few bikes tuned with v-tune how long does it take you to dial in a stage1 bike?

I feel it is somewhat unfair to evaluate any system after the first attempt. Some read, understand, and follow instructions...some don't.
Some learn from forums before they start and some use forums to educate them after they are confounded.

The learning curve also varies significantly depending a lot on what EFI tuning experience a first-time user brings to the new product.

Learning PV tuning should come easier after tuning with TTS, SESPT or Direct link.

Bob

[rbabos]

Something to consider:
Most ALL closed loop tuning and running issues stem from improper O2 signalling.

It makes absolutely NO DIFFERENCE which auto-tune system..PV/smartune/v-tune/t-max, EMS, any system must use the EXACT same O2 data...good AND bad!

IMO a well designed auto-tune system should take an extra step in data collection and analysis:
Sampled data is examined and used if considered good and tossed out if not.
Any of these systems do that?
Bob
PS - The statement: Garbage in Garbage out...still applies.

Agree, it's all about sampling. I found the broadbands with TS to call for different ve's then what the narrow bands did. I've not figured out why at this point but setting the ve's with broadbands improved overall running in my case .
If what you say is correct, then the tune with PV should go into the dumpster the more he plays with it. Starting with a very close cal, bad sampling will force a bad tune down the road. We have to wait and see how this plays out for him. So far it doesn't seem to be the case since timing is the only area that needs some work.
Ron

[Rider57]

Getting base or starting maps in a library makes a difference.
Having a good starting point shortens the time quite a bit.

[tdkkart]

So far it doesn't seem to be the case since timing is the only area that needs some work.
Ron

You guys sure are good at making assumptions........

Assuming you're talking about my comments, I did a couple fuel tuning runs to tweak the VE numbers to my bike,
overall the changes were reasonable, +/-10 % or less over most of the map, with only a couple "suspect" areas, one of which happens
where I am getting some pinging issues.
Overall though I'm happy with the feel of things fuel wise, it runs very well, and when watch in the Closed Loop integrator signals they stay within +/- 2% during most riding conditions.(yet to be seen if these numbers actually mean anything?? Don't remember seeing these mentioned much, if at all before)

I don't think we can expect all O2 sensors to read exactly the same. I know there are standards that are supposed to be met, but we all know how that works in everything else these days.

So now that I'm happy with the fuel, I'm playing with timing, which is especially important when trying to run 87 octane fuel.

Any theories on pulling timing rather than adding fuel when chasing detonation??
I know what I think works, but I'm open to other opinions.

[Tre_11 FLHX]

Tre', wasn't trying to single you out. I happen to agree with you large part about attitude, etc. But I just wanted to point out that it seemed/seems that a large part of the TTS questions almost always turn negetive due a personal grudge match which really has no place on TTS. I am sure the PV is serious competition for TTS and I think that is a good thing. Can't wait to see how it developes. And Like BVHog and others have said, the OP should use what he has unless he wants to spend more money. If the OP cannot learn to use the tools then it does not matter IMHO if he uses the TTS or the PV, the results will be the same. As for not dragging the LT around, I think the new TTS interface helps with that. It will data log on it's own. True, you have no screen to look at. That may change, who knows but with either setup, you still need a computer in the end.

Tsani- No worries!     Competition is good and will only make each product better, and your right these always seem to turn into my pops bigger.  I was only stateing my opinion based on my experience.

I spent countless hours/miles with the help of some well known tuners when I was using TTS.  With the base map that Jamie provided.  I got it dialed in fairly quickly.  Keep in mind, I wasn't a big fan of the PV inititally.  Once the Beta became available and I used it along with some recommedations from some of our very own tuners, My bike has never run better, gas mileage has improved by 5mpg, no pinging and pulls like it never has before. Maybe my experience is an annomoly? But it is what I've experienced in a fraction of the time I spent using TTS.

Tre3'

[strokerjlk]

Anyone taking advantage of controlling the afv, learned timing?

[ToBeFrank]

IMO a well designed auto-tune system should take an extra step in data collection and analysis:
Sampled data is examined and used if considered good and tossed out if not.
Any of these systems do that?

They all do. However, there's no way to filter for bad sensor placement or a bad sensor. They can filter out all the places where it's likely to be bad even with a good sensor/placement, but after that the algorithm has to assume the sensor is giving good data (assuming it's within specs, of course).

[HD_04Ultra]

The SKAs (Skills, Knowledge, Abilities) of tuners varies greatly as well as the amount of decision making ability they enjoy at their place of employment.  So does the communication skills of bike owners who take a bike into a tuner and never communicate clearly what their expectations actually are.

It stands to reason the bike owner made performance modifications and wants a dyno tune to gain HP/TQ.  If the tuner can dial in an extra few ponies and/or torque above and beyond the base run then they effectively accomplished the goal IF the bike owner didn't clearly stste what the expectations were going in.  It further stands to reason that there are some very good tuners at dealerships that are hog-tied by service managers and owners who have set pre-established time limits for tunung a bike.  The point is, sometimes you can get a good/competent tuner with all the right SKAs and still not end up with a great tune.  I am sure they hear, "You've got 4 hours into that one and it is putting out more now than it did when you started; get it out of there and get on to the next one."

Do yourself a favor, find a good independent with the right SKAs whose bread is buttered by his (or her) reputation as a good tuner.  Then be perfectly clear that you expect a full tune (not just WOT crap).  Really, how often do you actually drive at WOT?  Stay away from any "tuner" who claims that as long as the VEs were set independantly and it doesn't pull timing at WOT that it's fully tuned.  Eddy brake, part throttle, different loading, keeping the o2 sensors clean, looking for knock retard while rolling on in different gears, etc. is all part of a full tune.  The point here is if you aren't clear about what you expect - well, then if you came away with more HP/TQ than you came in with you got what you paid for.

Don't get hung up comparing your numbers to someone else's with a "similar" build or even to your own build from one dyno to another.  Right now, at 70,000+ miles, my bike runs better at any load, gear, speed, throttle position than I can remember it ever running - and it runs coller to boot.  But I had to wait a couple of weeks and then drive almost 3 hours and 140 miles to get that.  I am not disrespecting anybody who ever tuned my bike but I truly believe some have not been allowed to finish the job due to business decisions that were out of their hands.

I am absolutely confident in the SKAs and the conciousnessness of Brian at Valley Racing.  But then it's his business, and his bread getts buttered by his good reputation.

HD_04ultra

[oldguy]

So far it doesn't seem to be the case since timing is the only area that needs some work.
Ron

You guys sure are good at making assumptions........

Assuming you're talking about my comments, I did a couple fuel tuning runs to tweak the VE numbers to my bike,
overall the changes were reasonable, +/-10 % or less over most of the map, with only a couple "suspect" areas, one of which happens
where I am getting some pinging issues.
Overall though I'm happy with the feel of things fuel wise, it runs very well, and when watch in the Closed Loop integrator signals they stay within +/- 2% during most riding conditions.(yet to be seen if these numbers actually mean anything?? Don't remember seeing these mentioned much, if at all before)

I don't think we can expect all O2 sensors to read exactly the same. I know there are standards that are supposed to be met, but we all know how that works in everything else these days.

So now that I'm happy with the fuel, I'm playing with timing, which is especially important when trying to run 87 octane fuel.

Any theories on pulling timing rather than adding fuel when chasing detonation??
I know what I think works, but I'm open to other opinions.

Your CLI signal is useful in that it tells you how close your ve's are to being at commanded values. The closer to zero you can get, the less adaptation will occur for learned fuel values, in other words, your fuel map will be more stable over time. JMHO

[FLTRI]

...More like a couple of months and 750-1000 miles for mine.

Now that you've done a few how long does it take you to v-tune a bike?
Bob

[rbabos]

...More like a couple of months and 750-1000 miles for mine.

Now that you've done a few how long does it take you to v-tune a bike?
Bob

Not Coyote but generally the ve's whip into shape in one afternoon. It's all the rest of the stuff that eats up time. Best cold start behaviour, best hot starts, and best idle, best iac behaviour for temps. Then there's that pesky problem of where the Delphi won't provide the same afrs between cold and hot weather, so a compromise is reached. I've never found the cause for this even though every sensor has been changed. Not exteme, but noticable.
Vtune is only the first step on some of these pesky engines.
Ron

[Hilly13]

I don't agree vtune the first step there Ron but it sure as heck ain't the last

[FLTRI]

Stock, mild builds do not need lots of ancillary adjustments as with high performance/big builds.
So if you have a high performance build it will take longer than a stockish build.

Once there are numerous calibrations developed for builds, the tuner can browse/try cals until happy with a base cal to start from. This can literally save hours on the dyno.

Time spent on a tune is NOT the issue. It IS all about the quality of the way the bike runs (product) after the tune

IMO the customer is paying for the product, or end result, not the time or method to achieve it.
Just my $.02,
Bob

[Tre_11 FLHX]

Once there are numerous calibrations developed for builds, the tuner can browse/try cals until happy with a base cal to start from.

The above took time to develop, time is money IMHO.  If technology allows a Tuner the ability to be more efficiency, why should the tune cost less?

JMHO,
Tre'

[FLTRI]

Once there are numerous calibrations developed for builds, the tuner can browse/try cals until happy with a base cal to start from.

The above took time to develop, time is money IMHO.  If technology allows a Tuner the ability to be more efficiency, why should the tune cost less?

JMHO,
Tre'

Consider this:
1st bike comes in with 124ci build but no good base maps to choose from. Spend 4 hrs developing the cal. $395
2nd bike comes in with exact same build. Spend 1/2-2 hrs trimming and perfecting the cal for THAT bike. $395

That said is it more fair to charge the first guy $600 for tuning but only $200 for the next guy because the tuner has a head start from the last same build tune?

Should a tuner charge by the hour? That way the customer pays for the tuner's education rather than the tuner learning and perfecting his tuning skills at his own expense?

A typical 120R tune with a known exhaust still takes at least a couple hours of perfecting whereas a 103/255 build with SE slipons may only take 1-1/2 hr to perfect from a really good set of base maps.

IMO, it comes down to what the customer is lead to believe he is paying for.

Is it the 4-6 hours spent on the dyno sometimes learning as he goes? 50-100 pulls before WOT is correct...even for a mild build?
OR is it the end result of the tuner's ability to produce a great running bike without wearing the rear tire, rings, and clutch out figuring out how to get to where he needs to be?


Bob

[HogBag]

I'm sure if Bob or Doc sold the TTS to forum members with a starter map that's been made to closely suit there build the TTS would be easy for the owner to dial in.

[FLTRI]

I remember a guy who sold maps for builds on the internet.  Guaranteed them to be spot on. 
Trouble was...exhaust system differences and injector output vary enough that he was spending most of his spare time changing/modifying customer cals and sending them back and forth.
He finally stopped answering the phone and is no longer selling cals.

Because of the above I'm not interested in pissing anyone off by selling a calibration for something that isn't exactly the same build, including exhaust and injector output...which is why custom mapping is the best way.
It just isn't as easy as it seems. Too many variables to confound the plan...IMO.
Bob

[HogBag]

Bob
I wasn't asking for you or Doc to supply base maps for any bike. My point was if you or Doc choose to help a few on this forum it would make Vtuning easy for most builds. Any tuning product is only as good as the base map in the ECM . My point is most guys on this forum with the PV are getting base maps from A PV supplier making the DIY tuning very easy.   

[1FSTRK]

Purchasing a dyno tune should be viewed the same as purchasing a part. When they sell a part, any part, they set the price so that over time they cover the start up cost, tooling, production cost, marketing, and PROFIT. If you think when you buy a throttle body, a cam, or a piston you are just paying for that piece you are mistaken.
If you agree to the price of a tune and get charged the price you agreed to you should not care if it took 2 seconds or 2 days.

[rbabos]

I'm sure if Bob or Doc sold the TTS to forum members with a starter map that's been made to closely suit there build the TTS would be easy for the owner to dial in.

Finally , someone who gets it.   
Ron

[UltraNutZ]

  "Agree Steve supports his product, but in private conversation with him, He loves him some Steve. Just saying" 

  heehee   

And therein the problem lies, but don't bash him for self love, Woody Allen once said "don't knock masturbation, it's sex with someone I love" Steve has a decent product, the best? debatable but certainly one of the best.  For the OP or anyone else, if you have the TTS then you would be a fool to spend money on the PV same as someone with a super tuner spending money on the TTS thinking it wont produce a great running bike because of what they may have read on the internet.
A large percentage of the problems here could easily be rectified if all the TTS threads were just moved to the vendor section.

no folks.. for us "DIY" tuners, where the problem lies is within the support (or lack there of) you are able to obtain from using the SE specific product.  I don't have any experience with FM, but I read absolutely nothing but good things about them.  I've used a TTS for years and can say that between folks like Doc, Wiz, and Steve himself, among many others who are gracious enough and take the time to help a fellow DIYer, they are willing and more than able to assist a DIY tuner to achieve a good end result.  However, good SE tuners who are on these forums (not just this forum) offer little to any support to a DIYer tuner.  Why is that?  There are tons of people on these forums who are obviously very experienced/professional tuners yet the willingness to help others who are trying to understand this product is futile at best.  Hell, you can't even get support for the SE device from HD themselves! 

I personally don't give a rat's &^% if Steve Cole is stuck on himself or not;  I do know that if I call or email him I get a response and that speaks WONDERS to me.  I read over and over again about Jamie/FM being the same way.  So being an educated person, where do you think my decision will go when I need to buy a tuning product?  Sure as hell not HD.  The only reason I'm trying to learn this thing (SEPST) now is because it came with the bike and I didn't want to spend another $500 on a tuner when I already have one.  But after roughly 850 miles, countless hours, 30+ not so smart tune runs, and the end result being extremely frustrated that my VE tables still look like the Andes Mountains on a bike with a pretty basic configuration, I'm willing to walk away from this thing now.

My point is simply this.  People are going to read the good, the bad, and the ugly and they are going to make their decision on which tuner they want to use/learn with based on this information.  Any idiot can read these forums and determine very quickly that SE is NOT the way to go for a DIYer.  Yes the product is a good product, I know and understand that but the only way you, as a motorcycle owner will be happy with the end results is by doing it the HD way;  throw more $$ at it by bringing it to a professional tuner to have it done right if you're lucky enough to find a good SE tuner.  Around here, I can tell you that SE tuners suck, I've used 5 different ones in the past 4+ years and none of them have a clue as to what they're doing. 

[rbabos]

On the most part I agree. With the experts here the most I got was BS. Never a direct answer to a question over and over just about sent me over the edge.  There are a couple here willing to help but best done one on one comunication. Seems like most pros only give just enough info in order to protect themselves , piss the DIY'r off to the point they seek a dyno tune. While some of us are masochistic enough to spend a gazzilion hours at it , buy more tuning "Potty mouth" to help out, on the most part TTS is not a DIY'r friendly product. Great product but the end user needs to learn a lot especially on a high output engine that's way out of the picture for these generic calibrations.
Ron

[hrdtail78]

DIY. Means do it yourself right?  Funny how that term is thrown around with everything besides learning.  That seems to be, just come to a forum and ask questions to guys that have done the things it takes to learn. Pay for school, buy equipment, spend years learning different tuning strategies, maint. on tuning equipment, update tuning software, (not all is free) build base map folders, learn different things about tuning on almost every tune, the list can on and on.  Knowledge is power. I'm just not going to hand it out to someone else that doesn't want to earn it themselves.  Then there are those that argue with you the whole time you are trying to help for free. Too taxing and isn't worth it.

As for as help with the SE tuners. We might see some of this change with the new update. Posting up a histogram that you are smart tuning off of will help. Until this new update came out. It was a shot in the dark for most of us. But, I do agree. The SE is lacking a bit with help.  There are still folks out there willing to help. Just haven't seen it on forums.

[FLTRI]

DIY. Means do it yourself right?  Funny how that term is thrown around with everything besides learning.  That seems to be, just come to a forum and ask questions to guys that have done the things it takes to learn. Pay for school, buy equipment, spend years learning different tuning strategies, maint. on tuning equipment, update tuning software, (not all is free) build base map folders, learn different things about tuning on almost every tune, the list can on and on.  Knowledge is power. I'm just not going to hand it out to someone else that doesn't want to earn it themselves.  Then there are those that argue with you the whole time you are trying to help for free. Too taxing and isn't worth it.

As for as help with the SE tuners. We might see some of this change with the new update. Posting up a histogram that you are smart tuning off of will help. Until this new update came out. It was a shot in the dark for most of us. But, I do agree. The SE is lacking a bit with help.  There are still folks out there willing to help. Just haven't seen it on forums.

Well stated Jason 
Bob