110 motors and tuning

[98fxstc]

Hi All
Maybe I should have posted in the twin cam section but my concerns really relate to the tuning process (on the road or dyno)
I have an 09 fxdfse (buid date October 08), I have had it about 6 months.
The bike was stock and my mods so far are catless header pipes and CS performance baffles and street slammer bars.
When I took the factory bars off I lost my tach.
I got the TTS and have started vtuning.
I am a bit worried about high revs.
i have a few boxes filled at 4000rpm , one at 4500 and one at 5000.
I am going to rig up the tach again to keep an eye on my rpms.

I wanted to tune the bike to prepare myself for tuning after major mods.
I have 259e cams , 10.5:1 pistons , minor headwork , hoban crank and timekin conversion ready to go in our winter , about 6 months away.
I am aware the cranks can scissor with a differential load applied (acceleration and decelleration), especially in high torque motors but mild builds and stock motor are not immune.
There were also problems with the cylinder liners moving in the 110s.

My point is , should I be content with an almost good enough tune now and wait till after I bullet proof my bottom end and do the other mods before a serious tune?

Or am I being a big girl's blouse?

Thanks

[strokerjlk]

It all depends on what's good enough ?
You can't tune 80-100 kpa , so if you are ok with a motor that is either to lean or to rich at wot you could call it good enough. And just not ride there.

I find a lot the SE /CVO owners , perfectly happy with a well tuned stage 1.
The problem is ,they have never felt what a good stage 1 -110 is supposed to feel like.
If all you do is swap cams without increasing compression to match the longer cams. You just push everything to the right ( higher rpms) so now the bottom end feels soft .
Add to that a half baked tune and you are worse off than you were with the stage -1 with 255 cams .
So I guess my answer is yes tune it no matter what you decide.
Then you can make a honest evaluation .

[Steve Cole]

So why is it that you keep saying they cannot tune 80 - 100 kPa? Nothing can be further from the truth. Yes, Vtune will not do it automatically for them but there is nothing stopping him from tuning those areas with the tools provided in the system. As for a half baked tune as you call it there have been plenty of people who have tuned there bikes and have then gone to a dyno only to find that they were already within a few % of what the dyno tuner got them, all one needs to do is use the search feature here on this site and many others to see that.

[Coyote]

So how do you tune those areas with just the TTS tools Steve? I wasn't able to on my bike but maybe I was missing something. 

[hrdtail78]

Hi All
Maybe I should have posted in the twin cam section but my concerns really relate to the tuning process (on the road or dyno)
I have an 09 fxdfse (buid date October 08), I have had it about 6 months.
The bike was stock and my mods so far are catless header pipes and CS performance baffles and street slammer bars.
When I took the factory bars off I lost my tach.
I got the TTS and have started vtuning.
I am a bit worried about high revs.
i have a few boxes filled at 4000rpm , one at 4500 and one at 5000.
I am going to rig up the tach again to keep an eye on my rpms.

I wanted to tune the bike to prepare myself for tuning after major mods.
I have 259e cams , 10.5:1 pistons , minor headwork , hoban crank and timekin conversion ready to go in our winter , about 6 months away.
I am aware the cranks can scissor with a differential load applied (acceleration and decelleration), especially in high torque motors but mild builds and stock motor are not immune.
There were also problems with the cylinder liners moving in the 110s.

My point is , should I be content with an almost good enough tune now and wait till after I bullet proof my bottom end and do the other mods before a serious tune?

Or am I being a big girl's blouse?

Thanks

I would learn to vtune on the street with mods done now.  Since you are planning on mods later.  You can revtune the thing and always go to a dyno to check your open loop portion of the tune.  Or make the dicision to dyno or street tune after the mods.  A couple of questions I would have is.  How far away is a good dyno tuner?  I know some of you guys have to travel quit a bit to get to one down there.  Are you close to anyone that has street tuned w/ TTS?  Are you a bounce off redline type of guy?

The rest of the BS you hear will just be people trying to discredit TTS and what it can all do.  Kind of, thier koolaid is better tasting type thing.  They will even tell you to ignore everybody besides them.  I suggest keep an open mind and take it all in, and weed through it later.

[Rider57]

It all depends on what's good enough ?
You can't tune 80-100 kpa , so if you are ok with a motor that is either to lean or to rich at wot you could call it good enough. And just not ride there.

I find a lot the SE /CVO owners , perfectly happy with a well tuned stage 1.
The problem is ,they have never felt what a good stage 1 -110 is supposed to feel like.
If all you do is swap cams without increasing compression to match the longer cams. You just push everything to the right ( higher rpms) so now the bottom end feels soft .
Add to that a half baked tune and you are worse off than you were with the stage -1 with 255 cams .
So I guess my answer is yes tune it no matter what you decide.
Then you can make a honest evaluation .

WHAT? After I already tuned in those areas? Did I miss something here?
80 to 100 is not a problem to get tuned.

[BVHOG]

So why is it that you keep saying they cannot tune 80 - 100 kPa? Nothing can be further from the truth. Yes, Vtune will not do it automatically for them but there is nothing stopping him from tuning those areas with the tools provided in the system. As for a half baked tune as you call it there have been plenty of people who have tuned there bikes and have then gone to a dyno only to find that they were already within a few % of what the dyno tuner got them, all one needs to do is use the search feature here on this site and many others to see that.

Why don't you admit those areas are nothing more than interpolation, just a guess and no actual sampling has been done there. A FEW PERCENT?   not good enough, especially at WOT   And FWIW, how can you even call V-tune tuning?  Tuning is finding the best fuel mixture and timing for max power economy and engine temp, how are you going to measure max power or power at any other level of running? I suppose we could use the on road dyno feature. Just tell the cop you were V-tuning, I am sure he will cut you some slack.........not!

[Steve Cole]

So how do you tune those areas with just the TTS tools Steve? I wasn't able to on my bike but maybe I was missing something. 

First thing you need to do is measure what is going on. There are several ways to do that included with Mastertune programs.  Speed/Distance Calculator, Quarter Mile Calculator and Dyno Horsepower Estimator, O2 voltages to name a few. With a bike equipped with properly working O2 sensors one needs to look at the voltage coming from the O2 sensor at WOT. If that voltage is jumping up and down or is it steady at a given voltage through the RPM range. So you use DataMaster to record the O2 data and you take a look at it. With the information you get you would then make adjustments to the VE tables to increase or decrease them. Once you have made changes and then recorded the results you will be able to get the O2 sensors to a nice smooth voltage across the RPM range for both cylinders, you now have to look at the voltage and see if you want it higher or lower for peak power but the stock O2 sensors will show you what is going on.  You can now use the other tools I mentioned to see what gives you peak performance. Different software levels will give different voltage readings  but on a typical 2006 - 2012 (Lvl 176) cable throttle Big Twin engine 900- 920 mV works nicely for a target voltage. For a 2008 only DBW that same voltage works. On 2010 - 2013 DBW Touring Big Twin (Lvl 009 or 044)1740- 1760 mV works nicely for a number to target.

You are doing the EXACT same thing a dyno tuner is doing by setting values, programming the bike then testing again. Your just using what included in the Mastertune kit to do it. While it is NOT automatic it has always been in Mastertune. For the guys with none O2 equipped bikes nothing has changed and you would still need to do it the same as you would with a carburetor.

Now a dyno tuner uses a dyno and a different way to measure which may or maynot be more accurate than what you have the method is one and the same. Run the bike and record the data, then make changes and try again.

[Coyote]

You lost me at "First thing".    Is there a documented procedure for doing this?

[rbabos]

You lost me at "First thing".    Is there a documented procedure for doing this?

I've not seen it but he's correct. The O2 voltages give an indication on the mixture present and this can translate roughly to the afr. However, not sure any of us knew what values to look for until Steves recent post.
Ron

[guydoc77]

So how do you tune those areas with just the TTS tools Steve? I wasn't able to on my bike but maybe I was missing something. 

First thing you need to do is measure what is going on. There are several ways to do that included with Mastertune programs.  Speed/Distance Calculator, Quarter Mile Calculator and Dyno Horsepower Estimator, O2 voltages to name a few. With a bike equipped with properly working O2 sensors one needs to look at the voltage coming from the O2 sensor at WOT. If that voltage is jumping up and down or is it steady at a given voltage through the RPM range. So you use DataMaster to record the O2 data and you take a look at it. With the information you get you would then make adjustments to the VE tables to increase or decrease them. Once you have made changes and then recorded the results you will be able to get the O2 sensors to a nice smooth voltage across the RPM range for both cylinders, you now have to look at the voltage and see if you want it higher or lower for peak power but the stock O2 sensors will show you what is going on.  You can now use the other tools I mentioned to see what gives you peak performance. Different software levels will give different voltage readings  but on a typical 2006 - 2012 (Lvl 176) cable throttle Big Twin engine 900- 920 mV works nicely for a target voltage. For a 2008 only DBW that same voltage works. On 2010 - 2013 DBW Touring Big Twin (Lvl 009 or 044)1740- 1760 mV works nicely for a number to target.

You are doing the EXACT same thing a dyno tuner is doing by setting values, programming the bike then testing again. Your just using what included in the Mastertune kit to do it. While it is NOT automatic it has always been in Mastertune. For the guys with none O2 equipped bikes nothing has changed and you would still need to do it the same as you would with a carburetor.

Now a dyno tuner uses a dyno and a different way to measure which may or maynot be more accurate than what you have the method is one and the same. Run the bike and record the data, then make changes and try again.

So, after you've done all of this, if you're motor still has good ring seal, do you have any time to just pleasurably ride the bike before the snow flies? Sorry, but this sounds like a whole lot of f'ng around to me for someone who has limited time to just ride his/her bike. Why not spend four or five hours getting the bike dyno tuned and be done with it?

[98fxstc]

It all depends on what's good enough ?
You can't tune 80-100 kpa , so if you are ok with a motor that is either to lean or to rich at wot you could call it good enough. And just not ride there.

I find a lot the SE /CVO owners , perfectly happy with a well tuned stage 1.
The problem is ,they have never felt what a good stage 1 -110 is supposed to feel like.
Then you can make a honest evaluation .

Thanks Stroker
The stage 1 is my first step.
Learning to vtune the stage 1 is the first step in my TTS education.
I was happy with it stock , but I have plans !
And when I finish I want it to be as good as I can get it with the funds and the expertise I have .
The more I can do myself,the more I can spend on parts.

Yes, Vtune will not do it automatically for them but there is nothing stopping him from tuning those areas with the tools provided in the system.

First thing you need to do is measure what is going on. There are several ways to do that included with Mastertune programs.  Speed/Distance Calculator, Quarter Mile Calculator and Dyno Horsepower Estimator, O2 voltages to name a few. With a bike equipped with properly working O2 sensors one needs to look at the voltage coming from the O2 sensor at WOT. If that voltage is jumping up and down or is it steady at a given voltage through the RPM range. So you use DataMaster to record the O2 data and you take a look at it. With the information you get you would then make adjustments to the VE tables to increase or decrease them. Once you have made changes and then recorded the results you will be able to get the O2 sensors to a nice smooth voltage across the RPM range for both cylinders, you now have to look at the voltage and see if you want it higher or lower for peak power but the stock O2 sensors will show you what is going on.  You can now use the other tools I mentioned to see what gives you peak performance. Different software levels will give different voltage readings  but on a typical 2006 - 2012 (Lvl 176) cable throttle Big Twin engine 900- 920 mV works nicely for a target voltage. For a 2008 only DBW that same voltage works. On 2010 - 2013 DBW Touring Big Twin (Lvl 009 or 044)1740- 1760 mV works nicely for a number to target.

You are doing the EXACT same thing a dyno tuner is doing by setting values, programming the bike then testing again. Your just using what included in the Mastertune kit to do it. While it is NOT automatic it has always been in Mastertune. For the guys with none O2 equipped bikes nothing has changed and you would still need to do it the same as you would with a carburetor.

Now a dyno tuner uses a dyno and a different way to measure which may or maynot be more accurate than what you have the method is one and the same. Run the bike and record the data, then make changes and try again.

Thanks Steve
I'm ok with your first post.
I'll keep the info in your second post up my sleeve for later!

I would learn to vtune on the street with mods done now.  Since you are planning on mods later.  You can revtune the thing and always go to a dyno to check your open loop portion of the tune.  Or make the dicision to dyno or street tune after the mods.  A couple of questions I would have is.  How far away is a good dyno tuner?  I know some of you guys have to travel quit a bit to get to one down there.  Are you close to anyone that has street tuned w/ TTS?  Are you a bounce off redline type of guy?

The rest of the BS you hear will just be people trying to discredit TTS and what it can all do.  Kind of, thier koolaid is better tasting type thing.  They will even tell you to ignore everybody besides them.  I suggest keep an open mind and take it all in, and weed through it later.

Thanks hrdtail
I'm not a 'bounce off redline' kind of guy but I do like to have a play from time to time.
I like a bit of 'get up and go'.
I don't know anybody with a TTS.
I don't know anybody who self tunes with anything.
I have access to a dyno , but not really practical , the operator doesn't know anything about TTS.
I want to be able to tune my own bike when I do mods.

WHAT? After I already tuned in those areas? Did I miss something here?
80 to 100 is not a problem to get tuned.

Thanks Rider
How do you get 80-100?
(And I don't think I'm the only one who wants to know?)

I suppose we could use the on road dyno feature. Just tell the cop you were V-tuning, I am sure he will cut you some slack.........not!

Thanks BVHOG
I was doing my low map area , going down a hill at about 10mph in 5th gear when a cop went past and had a look at me.
He had a car pulled up about a mile down the road!

I've not seen it but he's correct. The O2 voltages give an indication on the mixture present and this can translate roughly to the afr. However, not sure any of us knew what values to look for until Steves recent post.
Ron

Thanks Ron
We all learn something from healthy debate!


My original question-
Because the tuning process requires data from outside usual riding habits , outside usual load conditions for interpolation ,the motor is subjected to greater load conditons than usual.
While the process requires gradual changes and hold steady to cover the histogram,should I worry about my crank?


Thanks

[rbabos]

Avoid hammering the comp at low rpms in high gears to fill cells. Nothing else in the routine should stress the crank out.
Ron

[98fxstc]

Avoid hammering the comp at low rpms in high gears to fill cells. Nothing else in the routine should stress the crank out.
Ron

Thanks Ron
Thats the sort of info I'm looking for !

[strokerjlk]

Avoid hammering the comp at low rpms in high gears to fill cells. Nothing else in the routine should stress the crank out.
Ron

Thanks Ron
Thats the sort of info I'm looking for !

dont get in the habit of draggin your brakes.
do some sampling two up if you have to.
find up hill grades .
really just use common sense and dont stress the drive train,or brakes and rotors.

[98fxstc]

dont get in the habit of draggin your brakes.
do some sampling two up if you have to.
find up hill grades .
really just use common sense and dont stress the drive train,or brakes and rotors.

Thanks stroker
Didn't like the idea of draggin the brakes.
I've got some uphill grades but might need to find a pillion.
Been using common sense and coming up short on the boxes.
I'll have another look at mayor's vtune procedure.

[ToBeFrank]

The O2 voltages give an indication on the mixture present and this can translate roughly to the afr. However, not sure any of us knew what values to look for until Steves recent post.

Very roughly, and certainly not accurately, especially in the rich region where your WOT tuning will take place. Frankly, since Steve is so insistent on this board about using tuning tools within their design parameters, I'm surprised he would recommend using the sensors in this way.

[Coyote]

The O2 voltages give an indication on the mixture present and this can translate roughly to the afr. However, not sure any of us knew what values to look for until Steves recent post.

Very roughly, and certainly not accurately, especially in the rich region where your WOT tuning will take place. Frankly, since Steve is so insistent on this board about using tuning tools within their design parameters, I'm surprised he would recommend using the sensors in this way.

I've read the instructions Steve posted and I think I get it but this is also what I don't get. If the O2 info is not good enough to vtune with, why would I manually do the same?

I know on my 2011 bike, it was messed up after vtuning at WOT. Mayor helped it some but never got it close until another member had a very similar bike dyno'd. Those corrections got me close but the original vtune was way lean at WOT.

I'm just trying to learn if there was any other reasonable option to get those columns.

[ToBeFrank]

I've read the instructions Steve posted and I think I get it but this is also what I don't get. If the O2 info is not good enough to vtune with, why would I manually do the same?

Because you will not get any sort of accuracy. You cannot map a specific AFR to a specific voltage. It's outside the range of what the sensor is designed for.

Here is a graph of the O2 response (taken from Bosch's documentation):

[attach=0]

That little curve in the upper left illustrates how inaccurate they are in the rich range.

I'm just trying to learn if there was any other reasonable option to get those columns.

Not with narrow bands. Unless you tuned WOT at stoich, of course.

[attachment removed after 60 days by system]

[Coyote]

I get that Frank. Thanks

[rbabos]

Interesting. So much for that concept.
Ron

[strokerjlk]

Interesting. So much for that concept.
Ron

you knew better.

didnt you try it once upon a time

[rbabos]

Interesting. So much for that concept.
Ron

you knew better.

didnt you try it once upon a time

Well, the graph does explain some things that I wasn't aware of way back then.
Ron

[hrdtail78]

Interesting. So much for that concept.
Ron

you knew better.

didnt you try it once upon a time

Well, the graph does explain some things that I wasn't aware of way back then.
Ron

That graph has been in Mastertune under tools since day one.

[hrdtail78]

link=topic=59163.msg631065#msg631065 date=1359596545]

/quote]

I thought the vision was what you are now tuning with. It collects data at 100% kpa w/ stock O2's.

[Coyote]

Not at all. My understanding from Jamie was that it (PV) could not collect that data without the wideband option (which he offered to send me). That makes sense to me. The only one telling me I should be able to do it all is Steve. Just trying to figure out how that works.  Do you know something I don't? Just trying to learn. And I'm asking questions that, frankly, are not being answered. But that's not new.

[hrdtail78]

You own a vision.  Collect data at 100kpa and see if you get hit counts. How about 95% 90%?  I'm sure I'm not the only person who has noticed this. SEPST also does this.

I think it was KenR that had a pretty good thread concerning street tuning vs. dyno tuning a stage 1. Sure the dyno got better, but it wasn't by much.

[Coyote]

I'm asking common sense questions about tts, not vision based on Steve s comments. He says I can tune those a those areas. I just need to know how.

[Jamie Long]

Not at all. My understanding from Jamie was that it (PV) could not collect that data without the wideband option (which he offered to send me). That makes sense to me. The only one telling me I should be able to do it all is Steve. Just trying to figure out how that works.  Do you know something I don't? Just trying to learn. And I'm asking questions that, frankly, are not being answered. But that's not new.

Referring to Power Vision the biggest limitation when populating corrections with AT Basic on the right side of the VE table is the ECM and hardware itself. When we "set up" the tune with PV we do what we can tune wise to promote maximum learning and it works very well up to moderate loads, however it is much more difficult to populate corrections in the high loads and at WOT. A short answer would be because the integrator cannot accurately roll under all circumstances for various reasons and strategies we can only use the data when it does.

Using the AT Pro with widebands is another story, you can populate very accurate corrections over the entire calibration.

Here is a PDF on PV auto tune http://www.powercommander.com/downloads/Support-Released/Power%20Vision/Manuals/PVAutoTune.01.pdf

For those attending V Twin Expo I will have an interactive Power Vision display with a "virtual" ECM that allows us to demo all of the features just like we are connected to a running bike, very cool. I will also have a laptop with WinPv software and a library of calibrations for users to test drive. We will be setup with Wood Performance. Make sure you stop over and visit

[Rider57]

Thanks Rider
How do you get 80-100?
(And I don't think I'm the only one who wants to know?)

I tune with a gas analyzer (Horiba 5 gas) and TTS, I have a Superflow CycleDyne and now a DJ 250I.

A tune I did last summer, 1 year ago, was all closed loop up to 5500rpm. Got 54mpg at 5600'

[98fxstc]

I tune with a gas analyzer (Horiba 5 gas) and TTS, I have a Superflow CycleDyne and now a DJ 250I.

A tune I did last summer, 1 year ago, was all closed loop up to 5500rpm. Got 54mpg at 5600'

Thanks Rider
I misunderstood.
I thought you may have a technique for road tuning to get the high map areas.
But you have a garage full of technology!

Can you use the gas analyzer to check the accuracy of the o2 sensors?

[strokerjlk]

It all depends on what's good enough ?
You can't tune 80-100 kpa , so if you are ok with a motor that is either to lean or to rich at wot you could call it good enough. And just not ride there.

I find a lot the SE /CVO owners , perfectly happy with a well tuned stage 1.
The problem is ,they have never felt what a good stage 1 -110 is supposed to feel like.
If all you do is swap cams without increasing compression to match the longer cams. You just push everything to the right ( higher rpms) so now the bottom end feels soft .
Add to that a half baked tune and you are worse off than you were with the stage -1 with 255 cams .
So I guess my answer is yes tune it no matter what you decide.
Then you can make a honest evaluation .

WHAT? After I already tuned in those areas? Did I miss something here?
80 to 100 is not a problem to get tuned.

so your original post didn't have a thing to do with  using stock narrow band to tune 80-100 kpa
you just wanted to agree with steve somehow?

Posted by: Rider57
« on: Yesterday at 11:18:44 PM » Insert Quote

Thanks Rider
How do you get 80-100?
(And I don't think I'm the only one who wants to know?)

I tune with a gas analyzer (Horiba 5 gas) and TTS, I have a Superflow CycleDyne and now a DJ 250I.

A tune I did last summer, 1 year ago, was all closed loop up to 5500rpm. Got 54mpg at 5600'

Still has nothing to do with using stock narrow bands to tune 80-100 kpa. (unless your cruising at 80-100  kpa and getting 54 mpg)
save yourself a fortune on equipment fellas ..v tune can get you that kind  mileage ,if that's what floats your boat.

[hrdtail78]

http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,56165.msg593479.html#msg593479

Look at reply #2.  Data taken at higher KPA.

I'm not stating if this is good or bad.  I'm just stating out of the big 3.  Both vision and sespt collect data.  Now my question would be.  Cause of the speed it has to collect, out of range for the sensor.  Is it good data.  I wouldn't trust it.  I have seen people get real close with blending, and when I vtune on the dyno I blend and then sample and map my ve's where I am going to run OL with an outside source.  Danger lean or rich I don't see with mild biulds.  Farther away I get from stage 1.  Different story.

It all depends on what's good enough ?
You can't tune 80-100 kpa , so if you are ok with a motor that is either to lean or to rich at wot you could call it good enough. And just not ride there.

I find a lot the SE /CVO owners , perfectly happy with a well tuned stage 1.
The problem is ,they have never felt what a good stage 1 -110 is supposed to feel like.
If all you do is swap cams without increasing compression to match the longer cams. You just push everything to the right ( higher rpms) so now the bottom end feels soft .
Add to that a half baked tune and you are worse off than you were with the stage -1 with 255 cams .
So I guess my answer is yes tune it no matter what you decide.
Then you can make a honest evaluation .

WHAT? After I already tuned in those areas? Did I miss something here?
80 to 100 is not a problem to get tuned.

so your original post didn't have a thing to do with  using stock narrow band to tune 80-100 kpa
you just wanted to agree with steve somehow?

Same as you guys just coming on here to discredit Steve.  That seems to be your MO.  Same as you standing in Double D's and running me down as a tuner.  Not knowing I worked there for 2-3 years when I was 19 and going to school.  Not understanding my relationship with a couple of guys down there.  It is a sad man that has to run others down to make themselves look better.  Instead of standing on your own knowlegde.  Or proving what you state with examples or data.  I understand the problem you have with me is cause I talk to Steve.  You wont talk with John K cause of this also.  So, I thought I would let you know, and others how ate up you are over this BS.

BTW  I disagree with Steve and his statement on using narrow bands for WOT tuning.  But I don't think I have ever met anybody I 100% agree with.  I have to go with my own knowlegde based on what I have seen, and somethings I have to prove to myself.  That doesn't mean I am gonna stick my head in the sand and ignore everything the guy says.

[Jamie Long]

Jason, the example you noted from one of my earlier posts was done using the PV with the AT module with wideband sensors and the PV Log tuner software. Referring to your statements on the factory O2 sensors there are a couple things to note, while PV and SEPST "set up" the tune forcing closed loop (among other changes) into the calibration, and while you can populate some data on the right side of the VE table both products are limited in terms of data collection and populating corrections in these higher load areas. It is a limitation of the ECM and control system itself, at or near WOT it simply cannot lock down closed loop, roll the integrator, allow the sensors to switch, and essentially do business as usual. In most cases I recommend if you are using the factory O2 sensors limiting the closed loop range to 70-80Kpa, beyond that there are obvious limitations from both running the bike at stoich, how the system responds, and the data coming back.

As far as checking your mixture at WOT by monitoring O2 sensor voltage output from the factory sensors, while this may be better than nothing if these are the resources at hand (I will say I never tried this) however because of the non-linear output and "narrow band" of the sensor in most cases it is only going to tell you if you are richer or leaner than stoich. Hopefully you are richer

Also, if you or any others are coming to Cincinnati I would be more than happy to discuss this in greater detail. You are welcome to come over to the Wood Performance booth. I will also have hardware and software to demo

[Rider57]

It all depends on what's good enough ?
You can't tune 80-100 kpa , so if you are ok with a motor that is either to lean or to rich at wot you could call it good enough. And just not ride there.

I find a lot the SE /CVO owners , perfectly happy with a well tuned stage 1.
The problem is ,they have never felt what a good stage 1 -110 is supposed to feel like.
If all you do is swap cams without increasing compression to match the longer cams. You just push everything to the right ( higher rpms) so now the bottom end feels soft .
Add to that a half baked tune and you are worse off than you were with the stage -1 with 255 cams .
So I guess my answer is yes tune it no matter what you decide.
Then you can make a honest evaluation .

WHAT? After I already tuned in those areas? Did I miss something here?
80 to 100 is not a problem to get tuned.

so your original post didn't have a thing to do with  using stock narrow band to tune 80-100 kpa
you just wanted to agree with steve somehow?

Posted by: Rider57
« on: Yesterday at 11:18:44 PM » Insert Quote

Thanks Rider
How do you get 80-100?
(And I don't think I'm the only one who wants to know?)

I tune with a gas analyzer (Horiba 5 gas) and TTS, I have a Superflow CycleDyne and now a DJ 250I.

A tune I did last summer, 1 year ago, was all closed loop up to 5500rpm. Got 54mpg at 5600'

Still has nothing to do with using stock narrow bands to tune 80-100 kpa. (unless your cruising at 80-100  kpa and getting 54 mpg)
save yourself a fortune on equipment fellas ..v tune can get you that kind  mileage ,if that's what floats your boat.

I have NEVER and NEVER will tune a bike at WOT.
Yes I tuned it without using the data port. Analysis is what got it there.

[Rider57]

I tune with a gas analyzer (Horiba 5 gas) and TTS, I have a Superflow CycleDyne and now a DJ 250I.

A tune I did last summer, 1 year ago, was all closed loop up to 5500rpm. Got 54mpg at 5600'

Thanks Rider
I misunderstood.
I thought you may have a technique for road tuning to get the high map areas.
But you have a garage full of technology!

Can you use the gas analyzer to check the accuracy of the o2 sensors?

Yes, and amazingly they are more accurate then one assumes.
I dont have a garage full of equipment, thats where the cars go.
I do have a training facility for ASE classes and a machine shop.

[Steve Cole]

The accuracy ........ you've got to be kidding me Frank. 
I find it funny that you would even go there Frank since the Bosch Broad Band Sensors are no better UNLESS you follow the manufactures (Bosch) specifications which NONE of the aftermarket systems do. I would suggest that you go look at the Bosch specification for a LSU 4.1, or LSU 4.2 sensor that is being used by DynoJet, Twin Scan and all the others and then tell us the accuracy when you DONOT use the temperature correction and pressure corrections that Bosch says you MUST use. Better yet Twin Scan cuts out the calibration unit from the sensor so they toss that out as well.

The quote below is directly from the Bosch specification data sheet for the Broad Band Sensor (LSU 4.1 and LSU4.2)

"10.5  Sensor characteristic at low or high exhaust gas temperatures
Cold exhaust gas in addition to high gas velocity can lead to a reduced
sensor ceramic temperature, when the heater control is not able to keep the
constant ceramic temperature. This leads to a deviation of the sensor output
signal.
Hot exhaust gas with a temperature above the operation temperature of the
ceramic also leads to a deviation of the ceramic temperature and the sensor
output signal.
Guide value: a temperature change of the sensor ceramic gives a deviation
of the sensor output signal ΔIP/IP of approx. 6%..7% / 100K.

10.6  Pressure dependency of the sensor signal
A pressure change of the measured gas gives a deviation of the sensor
output signal of:
IP(p) = Ip(p0) * p/(k+p) * (k+p0)/p0
The factor k is depending on operation conditions "rich" or "lean" and is
for the measuring gas from LSU test bench in section"

So since you need to account for the Pressure and Temperature and NONE of this is measured by any of the common aftermarket units using Broad Band sensors what are you getting? 6 to 7% range from no temperature correction and as much as-13% to +18% errors from the pressure correction. So are you going to call a +/-15% range accurate from Broad Bands? Its worse when you cut out the calibration part from the sensor too!


The factory ECM is more than capable of measuring and adjusting the engine in it ENTIRE operating range! That is NOT the issue. It is the fact that NO sensor is currently available for cheap and will last long enough for the required life by the government! So the end result is you do not have an accurate system in either case but the trend that you get from both is the same. If you want to come by our booth (847) at Cincinnati Vtwin I can show people just what I am saying with the data to back it up. As I said before if the output is moving around so is the mixture and once you get it flat so that it is steady you can then move it up or down as you see fit to get best power output if that is what you're looking for. I gave some numbers that will get you in the correct area and will be safe. The reason we do not do it for you automatically is the same as I've said from day one. Each engine combination will want something different. The tools are in the Mastertune package which was the question that was asked.

[ToBeFrank]

Frankly, since Steve is so insistent on this board about using tuning tools within their design parameters, I'm surprised he would recommend using the sensors in this way.

... rant about stuff unrelated to the topic at hand ...

I'm still surprised.

[strokerjlk]

Same as you guys just coming on here to discredit Steve.  That seems to be your MO.  Same as you standing in Double D's and running me down as a tuner.  Not knowing I worked there for 2-3 years when I was 19 and going to school.  Not understanding my relationship with a couple of guys down there.  It is a sad man that has to run others down to make themselves look better.  Instead of standing on your own knowlegde.  Or proving what you state with examples or data.  I understand the problem you have with me is cause I talk to Steve.  You wont talk with John K cause of this also.  So, I thought I would let you know, and others how ate up you are over this BS.

I have never been to double d's and don't even know exactly where they are.
So I don't know where that came from. Your reputation is known in that area.
I got quite a few guys from that area, so I can only assume one of my customers or one of your customers that came to me were there and made the comment.
If someone asks me about you I will tell them, but I don't visit other shops and talk about you .
Don't blame your Insecurities on me . I am much to busy to worry about your problems

[Steve Cole]

Frankly, since Steve is so insistent on this board about using tuning tools within their design parameters, I'm surprised he would recommend using the sensors in this way.

... rant about stuff unrelated to the topic at hand ...

I'm still surprised.

So now you are making up quotes? I never posted the one above at all.

I said it gives a clear picture of what is going on. Since you went off the deep end and wanted to talk about accuracy I simply compared it to what your doing. I also clearly stated NIETHER one is accurate enough IMHO but if your going to accept one as good enough you must also accept the other at the same time. If you really want to know what it is (mixture) then you need to step up and purchase equipment capable of making the proper measurements.

[ToBeFrank]

... rant, rant, rant ...

Not surprised by this, though.

[Steve Cole]

... rant, rant, rant ...

Not surprised by this, though.

I guess I shouldn't be too surprised that when your faced with the simple facts you have no answer either, but, how about you stop making quotes of things that I never said.

[hrdtail78]

Same as you guys just coming on here to discredit Steve.  That seems to be your MO.  Same as you standing in Double D's and running me down as a tuner.  Not knowing I worked there for 2-3 years when I was 19 and going to school.  Not understanding my relationship with a couple of guys down there.  It is a sad man that has to run others down to make themselves look better.  Instead of standing on your own knowlegde.  Or proving what you state with examples or data.  I understand the problem you have with me is cause I talk to Steve.  You wont talk with John K cause of this also.  So, I thought I would let you know, and others how ate up you are over this BS.

I have never been to double d's and don't even know exactly where they are.
So I don't know where that came from. Your reputation is known in that area.
I got quite a few guys from that area, so I can only assume one of my customers or one of your customers that came to me were there and made the comment.
If someone asks me about you I will tell them, but I don't visit other shops and talk about you .
Don't blame your Insecurities on me . I am much to busy to worry about your problems

You told me last year at the vtwin show.  You did all of Double D's tuning.  I heard that from you.  Now you say you don't know where it is at?  It was outside of Marion.  Times are a changin, or atleast your story is.  Already wasted enough time on it.  I thought I was on your ignore list.  Heard you say that also.

Jamie,
OK, AT-100's.  I didn't know.  I have only used the vision once.  I did get hit counts at 100 kpa.  Does it discard this info?  I know SESPT doesn't.  It will allow it to make changes to the VE's with the data it has collect at 100 kpa.  Watching the integrater it holds a 1. at this kpa. I can't remember if vision did.  But I do remember it getting the hit counts.  Looking forward to see what you got at the show.

[ToBeFrank]

... rant ...

What was it you were saying?

[strokerjlk]

You told me last year at the vtwin show.  You did all of Double D's tuning.  I heard that from you.  Now you say you don't know where it is at?  It was outside of Marion

I do a lot of tuning on their builds. Not for them.
I have a group of guys from around that area.
Some use dales some use black diamond.
But I tune  there bikes .
Honestly I never said anything to them.
Not that I wouldn't if they asked . I just can't take credit for this one .
Someone is wanking your chain. Priceless!.

[BVHOG]

I see it's back to the old "discredit the broad band accuracy" ploy, won't work, first off the last time you tried that Jamie showed you how your math was flawed, secondly Herko has tested them against test gas and found them to be nearly perfect. As for the twinscan which you claim "cut off"  the calibration module you are right there, but they are using an adjustable one in place of it and found the accuracy to be better that way not to mention it is an easy way to tell if your sensors are getting tired.
This is just the same old same old chit as always, when spamming your product (V-tune) doesn't work you resort to running down the systems that do work and have proven to work without problem.   
I do have to give you credit though, trying to take the general public and turn them into tuner via V-tune is a monumental task, easy to see by the constant problem posts here.
I just don't understand it though, I deal with all of the tuning systems and their tech departments and none of them come off to their customers in the fashion you do.  Someone should really make a movie about this chit.

[wurk_truk]

I am going to enjoy using the AT 100 set up.

[BVHOG]

Kinda quiet here, all the guys in this thread can argue with each other in person at the Expo this weekend.

[HV]

I was just thinking the same thing BV... damn Im gonna miss it too 

[laserp]

Maybe well get a YouTube 

[guydoc77]

Kinda quiet here, all the guys in this thread can argue with each other in person at the Expo this weekend.

Just curious Bob.
When are you going to start VTuning on your dyno?
I'll bet you're looking forward to ditching the two screens and the DTT hardware.
Sounds like the TTS will eliminate the need for all of that now. 

[BVHOG]

The sad part is we all have common interests and all want the same thing, a bike that runs great when it leaves our shop. Too bad things have to get to this point but the world would be dull if everyone agreed on everything and no progress would get done, kinda like the 60's hippie era
Doc, I am ditching the two screens, at least one small one anyway, a flat screen in front of the dyno is going in on the 7th, can't wait, can watch Bonanza reruns as well.

[lonewolf]

The sad part is we all have common interests and all want the same thing, a bike that runs great when it leaves our shop.

I agree with that. 

[hrdtail78]

The sad part is we all have common interests and all want the same thing, a bike that runs great when it leaves our shop. Too bad things have to get to this point but the world would be dull if everyone agreed on everything and no progress would get done, kinda like the 60's hippie era
Doc, I am ditching the two screens, at least one small one anyway, a flat screen in front of the dyno is going in on the 7th, can't wait, can watch Bonanza reruns as well.

I also agree 100%. IMO HTT as gone  as far as it going to go as far as tuning. We are still on tuning 101. Some of us could move on, and have moved on.

[Rider57]

I tune with a gas analyzer (Horiba 5 gas) and TTS, I have a Superflow CycleDyne and now a DJ 250I.

A tune I did last summer, 1 year ago, was all closed loop up to 5500rpm. Got 54mpg at 5600'

Thanks Rider
I misunderstood.
I thought you may have a technique for road tuning to get the high map areas.
But you have a garage full of technology!

Can you use the gas analyzer to check the accuracy of the o2 sensors?

That is exactly why I use it. The O2 sensors go bad too quickly in the Harley environment.
Many times because the system is set too lean or too rich.
It is a switch, and a very good one if used within it's design parameter's