110 motors and tuning

[Coyote]

Not at all. My understanding from Jamie was that it (PV) could not collect that data without the wideband option (which he offered to send me). That makes sense to me. The only one telling me I should be able to do it all is Steve. Just trying to figure out how that works.  Do you know something I don't? Just trying to learn. And I'm asking questions that, frankly, are not being answered. But that's not new.

[hrdtail78]

You own a vision.  Collect data at 100kpa and see if you get hit counts. How about 95% 90%?  I'm sure I'm not the only person who has noticed this. SEPST also does this.

I think it was KenR that had a pretty good thread concerning street tuning vs. dyno tuning a stage 1. Sure the dyno got better, but it wasn't by much.

[Coyote]

I'm asking common sense questions about tts, not vision based on Steve s comments. He says I can tune those a those areas. I just need to know how.

[Jamie Long]

Not at all. My understanding from Jamie was that it (PV) could not collect that data without the wideband option (which he offered to send me). That makes sense to me. The only one telling me I should be able to do it all is Steve. Just trying to figure out how that works.  Do you know something I don't? Just trying to learn. And I'm asking questions that, frankly, are not being answered. But that's not new.

Referring to Power Vision the biggest limitation when populating corrections with AT Basic on the right side of the VE table is the ECM and hardware itself. When we "set up" the tune with PV we do what we can tune wise to promote maximum learning and it works very well up to moderate loads, however it is much more difficult to populate corrections in the high loads and at WOT. A short answer would be because the integrator cannot accurately roll under all circumstances for various reasons and strategies we can only use the data when it does.

Using the AT Pro with widebands is another story, you can populate very accurate corrections over the entire calibration.

Here is a PDF on PV auto tune http://www.powercommander.com/downloads/Support-Released/Power%20Vision/Manuals/PVAutoTune.01.pdf

For those attending V Twin Expo I will have an interactive Power Vision display with a "virtual" ECM that allows us to demo all of the features just like we are connected to a running bike, very cool. I will also have a laptop with WinPv software and a library of calibrations for users to test drive. We will be setup with Wood Performance. Make sure you stop over and visit

[Rider57]

Thanks Rider
How do you get 80-100?
(And I don't think I'm the only one who wants to know?)

I tune with a gas analyzer (Horiba 5 gas) and TTS, I have a Superflow CycleDyne and now a DJ 250I.

A tune I did last summer, 1 year ago, was all closed loop up to 5500rpm. Got 54mpg at 5600'

[98fxstc]

I tune with a gas analyzer (Horiba 5 gas) and TTS, I have a Superflow CycleDyne and now a DJ 250I.

A tune I did last summer, 1 year ago, was all closed loop up to 5500rpm. Got 54mpg at 5600'

Thanks Rider
I misunderstood.
I thought you may have a technique for road tuning to get the high map areas.
But you have a garage full of technology!

Can you use the gas analyzer to check the accuracy of the o2 sensors?

[strokerjlk]

It all depends on what's good enough ?
You can't tune 80-100 kpa , so if you are ok with a motor that is either to lean or to rich at wot you could call it good enough. And just not ride there.

I find a lot the SE /CVO owners , perfectly happy with a well tuned stage 1.
The problem is ,they have never felt what a good stage 1 -110 is supposed to feel like.
If all you do is swap cams without increasing compression to match the longer cams. You just push everything to the right ( higher rpms) so now the bottom end feels soft .
Add to that a half baked tune and you are worse off than you were with the stage -1 with 255 cams .
So I guess my answer is yes tune it no matter what you decide.
Then you can make a honest evaluation .

WHAT? After I already tuned in those areas? Did I miss something here?
80 to 100 is not a problem to get tuned.

so your original post didn't have a thing to do with  using stock narrow band to tune 80-100 kpa
you just wanted to agree with steve somehow?

Posted by: Rider57
« on: Yesterday at 11:18:44 PM » Insert Quote

Thanks Rider
How do you get 80-100?
(And I don't think I'm the only one who wants to know?)

I tune with a gas analyzer (Horiba 5 gas) and TTS, I have a Superflow CycleDyne and now a DJ 250I.

A tune I did last summer, 1 year ago, was all closed loop up to 5500rpm. Got 54mpg at 5600'

Still has nothing to do with using stock narrow bands to tune 80-100 kpa. (unless your cruising at 80-100  kpa and getting 54 mpg)
save yourself a fortune on equipment fellas ..v tune can get you that kind  mileage ,if that's what floats your boat.

[hrdtail78]

http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,56165.msg593479.html#msg593479

Look at reply #2.  Data taken at higher KPA.

I'm not stating if this is good or bad.  I'm just stating out of the big 3.  Both vision and sespt collect data.  Now my question would be.  Cause of the speed it has to collect, out of range for the sensor.  Is it good data.  I wouldn't trust it.  I have seen people get real close with blending, and when I vtune on the dyno I blend and then sample and map my ve's where I am going to run OL with an outside source.  Danger lean or rich I don't see with mild biulds.  Farther away I get from stage 1.  Different story.

It all depends on what's good enough ?
You can't tune 80-100 kpa , so if you are ok with a motor that is either to lean or to rich at wot you could call it good enough. And just not ride there.

I find a lot the SE /CVO owners , perfectly happy with a well tuned stage 1.
The problem is ,they have never felt what a good stage 1 -110 is supposed to feel like.
If all you do is swap cams without increasing compression to match the longer cams. You just push everything to the right ( higher rpms) so now the bottom end feels soft .
Add to that a half baked tune and you are worse off than you were with the stage -1 with 255 cams .
So I guess my answer is yes tune it no matter what you decide.
Then you can make a honest evaluation .

WHAT? After I already tuned in those areas? Did I miss something here?
80 to 100 is not a problem to get tuned.

so your original post didn't have a thing to do with  using stock narrow band to tune 80-100 kpa
you just wanted to agree with steve somehow?

Same as you guys just coming on here to discredit Steve.  That seems to be your MO.  Same as you standing in Double D's and running me down as a tuner.  Not knowing I worked there for 2-3 years when I was 19 and going to school.  Not understanding my relationship with a couple of guys down there.  It is a sad man that has to run others down to make themselves look better.  Instead of standing on your own knowlegde.  Or proving what you state with examples or data.  I understand the problem you have with me is cause I talk to Steve.  You wont talk with John K cause of this also.  So, I thought I would let you know, and others how ate up you are over this BS.

BTW  I disagree with Steve and his statement on using narrow bands for WOT tuning.  But I don't think I have ever met anybody I 100% agree with.  I have to go with my own knowlegde based on what I have seen, and somethings I have to prove to myself.  That doesn't mean I am gonna stick my head in the sand and ignore everything the guy says.

[Jamie Long]

Jason, the example you noted from one of my earlier posts was done using the PV with the AT module with wideband sensors and the PV Log tuner software. Referring to your statements on the factory O2 sensors there are a couple things to note, while PV and SEPST "set up" the tune forcing closed loop (among other changes) into the calibration, and while you can populate some data on the right side of the VE table both products are limited in terms of data collection and populating corrections in these higher load areas. It is a limitation of the ECM and control system itself, at or near WOT it simply cannot lock down closed loop, roll the integrator, allow the sensors to switch, and essentially do business as usual. In most cases I recommend if you are using the factory O2 sensors limiting the closed loop range to 70-80Kpa, beyond that there are obvious limitations from both running the bike at stoich, how the system responds, and the data coming back.

As far as checking your mixture at WOT by monitoring O2 sensor voltage output from the factory sensors, while this may be better than nothing if these are the resources at hand (I will say I never tried this) however because of the non-linear output and "narrow band" of the sensor in most cases it is only going to tell you if you are richer or leaner than stoich. Hopefully you are richer

Also, if you or any others are coming to Cincinnati I would be more than happy to discuss this in greater detail. You are welcome to come over to the Wood Performance booth. I will also have hardware and software to demo

[Rider57]

It all depends on what's good enough ?
You can't tune 80-100 kpa , so if you are ok with a motor that is either to lean or to rich at wot you could call it good enough. And just not ride there.

I find a lot the SE /CVO owners , perfectly happy with a well tuned stage 1.
The problem is ,they have never felt what a good stage 1 -110 is supposed to feel like.
If all you do is swap cams without increasing compression to match the longer cams. You just push everything to the right ( higher rpms) so now the bottom end feels soft .
Add to that a half baked tune and you are worse off than you were with the stage -1 with 255 cams .
So I guess my answer is yes tune it no matter what you decide.
Then you can make a honest evaluation .

WHAT? After I already tuned in those areas? Did I miss something here?
80 to 100 is not a problem to get tuned.

so your original post didn't have a thing to do with  using stock narrow band to tune 80-100 kpa
you just wanted to agree with steve somehow?

Posted by: Rider57
« on: Yesterday at 11:18:44 PM » Insert Quote

Thanks Rider
How do you get 80-100?
(And I don't think I'm the only one who wants to know?)

I tune with a gas analyzer (Horiba 5 gas) and TTS, I have a Superflow CycleDyne and now a DJ 250I.

A tune I did last summer, 1 year ago, was all closed loop up to 5500rpm. Got 54mpg at 5600'

Still has nothing to do with using stock narrow bands to tune 80-100 kpa. (unless your cruising at 80-100  kpa and getting 54 mpg)
save yourself a fortune on equipment fellas ..v tune can get you that kind  mileage ,if that's what floats your boat.

I have NEVER and NEVER will tune a bike at WOT.
Yes I tuned it without using the data port. Analysis is what got it there.

[Rider57]

I tune with a gas analyzer (Horiba 5 gas) and TTS, I have a Superflow CycleDyne and now a DJ 250I.

A tune I did last summer, 1 year ago, was all closed loop up to 5500rpm. Got 54mpg at 5600'

Thanks Rider
I misunderstood.
I thought you may have a technique for road tuning to get the high map areas.
But you have a garage full of technology!

Can you use the gas analyzer to check the accuracy of the o2 sensors?

Yes, and amazingly they are more accurate then one assumes.
I dont have a garage full of equipment, thats where the cars go.
I do have a training facility for ASE classes and a machine shop.

[Steve Cole]

The accuracy ........ you've got to be kidding me Frank. 
I find it funny that you would even go there Frank since the Bosch Broad Band Sensors are no better UNLESS you follow the manufactures (Bosch) specifications which NONE of the aftermarket systems do. I would suggest that you go look at the Bosch specification for a LSU 4.1, or LSU 4.2 sensor that is being used by DynoJet, Twin Scan and all the others and then tell us the accuracy when you DONOT use the temperature correction and pressure corrections that Bosch says you MUST use. Better yet Twin Scan cuts out the calibration unit from the sensor so they toss that out as well.

The quote below is directly from the Bosch specification data sheet for the Broad Band Sensor (LSU 4.1 and LSU4.2)

"10.5  Sensor characteristic at low or high exhaust gas temperatures
Cold exhaust gas in addition to high gas velocity can lead to a reduced
sensor ceramic temperature, when the heater control is not able to keep the
constant ceramic temperature. This leads to a deviation of the sensor output
signal.
Hot exhaust gas with a temperature above the operation temperature of the
ceramic also leads to a deviation of the ceramic temperature and the sensor
output signal.
Guide value: a temperature change of the sensor ceramic gives a deviation
of the sensor output signal ΔIP/IP of approx. 6%..7% / 100K.

10.6  Pressure dependency of the sensor signal
A pressure change of the measured gas gives a deviation of the sensor
output signal of:
IP(p) = Ip(p0) * p/(k+p) * (k+p0)/p0
The factor k is depending on operation conditions "rich" or "lean" and is
for the measuring gas from LSU test bench in section"

So since you need to account for the Pressure and Temperature and NONE of this is measured by any of the common aftermarket units using Broad Band sensors what are you getting? 6 to 7% range from no temperature correction and as much as-13% to +18% errors from the pressure correction. So are you going to call a +/-15% range accurate from Broad Bands? Its worse when you cut out the calibration part from the sensor too!


The factory ECM is more than capable of measuring and adjusting the engine in it ENTIRE operating range! That is NOT the issue. It is the fact that NO sensor is currently available for cheap and will last long enough for the required life by the government! So the end result is you do not have an accurate system in either case but the trend that you get from both is the same. If you want to come by our booth (847) at Cincinnati Vtwin I can show people just what I am saying with the data to back it up. As I said before if the output is moving around so is the mixture and once you get it flat so that it is steady you can then move it up or down as you see fit to get best power output if that is what you're looking for. I gave some numbers that will get you in the correct area and will be safe. The reason we do not do it for you automatically is the same as I've said from day one. Each engine combination will want something different. The tools are in the Mastertune package which was the question that was asked.

[ToBeFrank]

Frankly, since Steve is so insistent on this board about using tuning tools within their design parameters, I'm surprised he would recommend using the sensors in this way.

... rant about stuff unrelated to the topic at hand ...

I'm still surprised.

[strokerjlk]

Same as you guys just coming on here to discredit Steve.  That seems to be your MO.  Same as you standing in Double D's and running me down as a tuner.  Not knowing I worked there for 2-3 years when I was 19 and going to school.  Not understanding my relationship with a couple of guys down there.  It is a sad man that has to run others down to make themselves look better.  Instead of standing on your own knowlegde.  Or proving what you state with examples or data.  I understand the problem you have with me is cause I talk to Steve.  You wont talk with John K cause of this also.  So, I thought I would let you know, and others how ate up you are over this BS.

I have never been to double d's and don't even know exactly where they are.
So I don't know where that came from. Your reputation is known in that area.
I got quite a few guys from that area, so I can only assume one of my customers or one of your customers that came to me were there and made the comment.
If someone asks me about you I will tell them, but I don't visit other shops and talk about you .
Don't blame your Insecurities on me . I am much to busy to worry about your problems

[Steve Cole]

Frankly, since Steve is so insistent on this board about using tuning tools within their design parameters, I'm surprised he would recommend using the sensors in this way.

... rant about stuff unrelated to the topic at hand ...

I'm still surprised.

So now you are making up quotes? I never posted the one above at all.

I said it gives a clear picture of what is going on. Since you went off the deep end and wanted to talk about accuracy I simply compared it to what your doing. I also clearly stated NIETHER one is accurate enough IMHO but if your going to accept one as good enough you must also accept the other at the same time. If you really want to know what it is (mixture) then you need to step up and purchase equipment capable of making the proper measurements.

[ToBeFrank]

... rant, rant, rant ...

Not surprised by this, though.

[Steve Cole]

... rant, rant, rant ...

Not surprised by this, though.

I guess I shouldn't be too surprised that when your faced with the simple facts you have no answer either, but, how about you stop making quotes of things that I never said.

[hrdtail78]

Same as you guys just coming on here to discredit Steve.  That seems to be your MO.  Same as you standing in Double D's and running me down as a tuner.  Not knowing I worked there for 2-3 years when I was 19 and going to school.  Not understanding my relationship with a couple of guys down there.  It is a sad man that has to run others down to make themselves look better.  Instead of standing on your own knowlegde.  Or proving what you state with examples or data.  I understand the problem you have with me is cause I talk to Steve.  You wont talk with John K cause of this also.  So, I thought I would let you know, and others how ate up you are over this BS.

I have never been to double d's and don't even know exactly where they are.
So I don't know where that came from. Your reputation is known in that area.
I got quite a few guys from that area, so I can only assume one of my customers or one of your customers that came to me were there and made the comment.
If someone asks me about you I will tell them, but I don't visit other shops and talk about you .
Don't blame your Insecurities on me . I am much to busy to worry about your problems

You told me last year at the vtwin show.  You did all of Double D's tuning.  I heard that from you.  Now you say you don't know where it is at?  It was outside of Marion.  Times are a changin, or atleast your story is.  Already wasted enough time on it.  I thought I was on your ignore list.  Heard you say that also.

Jamie,
OK, AT-100's.  I didn't know.  I have only used the vision once.  I did get hit counts at 100 kpa.  Does it discard this info?  I know SESPT doesn't.  It will allow it to make changes to the VE's with the data it has collect at 100 kpa.  Watching the integrater it holds a 1. at this kpa. I can't remember if vision did.  But I do remember it getting the hit counts.  Looking forward to see what you got at the show.

[ToBeFrank]

... rant ...

What was it you were saying?

[strokerjlk]

You told me last year at the vtwin show.  You did all of Double D's tuning.  I heard that from you.  Now you say you don't know where it is at?  It was outside of Marion

I do a lot of tuning on their builds. Not for them.
I have a group of guys from around that area.
Some use dales some use black diamond.
But I tune  there bikes .
Honestly I never said anything to them.
Not that I wouldn't if they asked . I just can't take credit for this one .
Someone is wanking your chain. Priceless!.

[BVHOG]

I see it's back to the old "discredit the broad band accuracy" ploy, won't work, first off the last time you tried that Jamie showed you how your math was flawed, secondly Herko has tested them against test gas and found them to be nearly perfect. As for the twinscan which you claim "cut off"  the calibration module you are right there, but they are using an adjustable one in place of it and found the accuracy to be better that way not to mention it is an easy way to tell if your sensors are getting tired.
This is just the same old same old chit as always, when spamming your product (V-tune) doesn't work you resort to running down the systems that do work and have proven to work without problem.   
I do have to give you credit though, trying to take the general public and turn them into tuner via V-tune is a monumental task, easy to see by the constant problem posts here.
I just don't understand it though, I deal with all of the tuning systems and their tech departments and none of them come off to their customers in the fashion you do.  Someone should really make a movie about this chit.

[wurk_truk]

I am going to enjoy using the AT 100 set up.

[BVHOG]

Kinda quiet here, all the guys in this thread can argue with each other in person at the Expo this weekend.

[HV]

I was just thinking the same thing BV... damn Im gonna miss it too 

[laserp]

Maybe well get a YouTube