Does TTS lock out HD's Digital Tech

[FLTRI]

Ron,
SC was more than forthright when the MT8 cals and subsequent software was released.
He said the changes to the MT8 cals required tuning from scratch as the "Tables" copy/paste would not translate an MT6-7 cal to an MT8 because of the low level changes.

Because the ECM is low level reformatted under the calibration no one can arbitrarily reprogram the ECM like we experienced back when TBW came out and HD encouraged dealers to "update" bikes when they came the shop for service/repair to enable "better torque management".
Well this promptly wrote over/wiped out the tuned calibration so the customer had to go through whatever was necessary to reinstall the tuned cal. What a clusterfu@k that created...for months.

Personally, every time I hear of a dealer who is "locked out" from reprogramming an ECM I get a warm feeling of security.
HTH,
Bob

[mayor]

Personally, every time I hear of a dealer who is "locked out" from reprogramming an ECM I get a warm feeling of security.

not me, I see this as a huge concern.  I can see this costing the bike owner for backcharged parts and labor, or screwing the next bike owner in the event of sale. I would not even consider the dual bike TTS unit, since there is no way to feel comfortable with one unit locking two ecm's.  Maybe I'm just a sky is falling kind of guy, but I see this locked out ecm practice being a real problem. 

[hrdtail78]

Take the good with the bad. Locked out ECM because TTS goes further into the ECM and allows you to collect data packages at different speeds for different things. Just like how most cars do. We are behind.  Do we need to collect CHT at the same speed and updates as we do O2?  No.  Guess I'm the positive thinker that would rather have better data collection and keep dealer out of my custom cals. 

[FLTRI]

Personally, every time I hear of a dealer who is "locked out" from reprogramming an ECM I get a warm feeling of security.

not me, I see this as a huge concern.  I can see this costing the bike owner for backcharged parts and labor, or screwing the next bike owner in the event of sale. I would not even consider the dual bike TTS unit, since there is no way to feel comfortable with one unit locking two ecm's.  Maybe I'm just a sky is falling kind of guy, but I see this locked out ecm practice being a real problem.

Mike,
I understand your position however I have yet to run across a dealer who "needed" to overwrite my work.
TTS does not keep the dealer from reading the ECM, it keeps the Dealer from reprogramming the ECM.
Hence the warm fuzzy feeling.
Unfortunately there are a couple known minor lockouts. 1 such is radio reprogramming.
A call to TTS by a tech with an internet connection, the TTS interface, and cables can have SC remotely take control of the ECM and do whatever is needed.
I personally know this.
IMO it doesn't get much better than that.
YMMV,
Bob

[hrdtail78]

Are you sure a locked TTS ECM locks out the radio? 

[FLTRI]

Are you sure a locked TTS ECM locks out the radio?

Nope. Heard it through the grapevine.
Bob

[hrdtail78]

Post up here on this site by HV that radio downloads are not a problem.

[ToBeFrank]

Take the good with the bad. Locked out ECM because TTS goes further into the ECM and allows you to collect data packages at different speeds for different things.

This doesn't require any changes in the ECM. I do this all the time with my own code.

[hrdtail78]

Take the good with the bad. Locked out ECM because TTS goes further into the ECM and allows you to collect data packages at different speeds for different things.

This doesn't require any changes in the ECM. I do this all the time with my own code.

Didn't realize you had any product that logged data off the ECM or program the ECM.  How many parts of the ECM does your code go into?

Bob,
You don't think anybody would sit down and plug a cal into a bike just to pull it back out with a different tuner and call it theirs, do you. There are probably some that think nobody would use a hacked mastertune.  The one I saw only worked with cals later than 157. So now the thing is locked and the customer never got a VCI locked to his bike or owns a VCI.  I have to wonder what problems that has all caused, and if that is one some of these guys count when they repeatedly state how many problems a locked ECM has caused.

[HV]

Don't quote me on  anything TTS .......I don't use them and have no plans of doing so in the future I believe I said something like I don't see why a tech would reflash the ECM when doing a radio or ABS Update.... if the TTS locks you out of non ECM things like accessing the ABS ECM that's a real PITA Mess 

[FLTRI]

Don't quote me on  anything TTS... "if the TTS locks you out of non ECM things like accessing the ABS ECM that's a real PITA Mess."

Haven't found access a problem just reprogramming the ECM.
Bob

[hrdtail78]

"I don't understand why the Tech even looked at the ECM ?   when you flash a Radio you check the RADIO Box in the reflash options in the Digital Tech...you don't check the ECM Box.....so it should not even matter whats done to the ECM... There are 3 options   ECM   Radio  and  ABS ( if applicable ) ... but WTF do I know...  "

Didnt mean to misquote you HV. This is what he said.

[HV]

Like I said WTF do I know...    I was ASSUMING the TTS did not mess with anything that would BLOCK accessing the Radio or ABS units... the ECM I can understand... If it does that's really another issue all together...

[HV]

A bigger issue is what happens with a used bike some poor sole buys and has no idea its been zapped with a TTS ? there should be a warning label provided to stick on the ECM... " Warning TTS Tuned for issues contact the Manufacture " and a PH# for Whomever is working on it ....so they can at least get info on what to do ..........Not all Techs either Dealer or Indy read HTT

[mayor]

A bigger issue is what happens with a used bike some poor sole buys and has no idea its been zapped with a TTS ? there should be a warning label provided to stick on the ECM... " Warning TTS Tuned for issues contact the Manufacture " and a PH# for Whomever is working on it ....so they can at least get info on what to do ..........Not all Techs either Dealer or Indy read HTT

yes, this is my concern with a two bike unit. In the end, some unsuspecting person who just bought a bike will find themselves with a huge problem eventually.

[strokerjlk]

A bigger issue is what happens with a used bike some poor sole buys and has no idea its been zapped with a TTS ? there should be a warning label provided to stick on the ECM... " Warning TTS Tuned for issues contact the Manufacture " and a PH# for Whomever is working on it ....so they can at least get info on what to do ..........Not all Techs either Dealer or Indy read HTT

yes, this is my concern with a two bike unit. In the end, some unsuspecting person who just bought a bike will find themselves with a huge problem eventually.

there are a guys also that traded bikes ,and handed over there tts.only to find no one had the MTE.

[Coyote]

I traded my 2010 before I knew what was going on and kept the TTS and had it converted to a two bike one for my 2011. I have no idea who has the 2010 bike now but it's locked. I'm not sure what to do on the 2012 bike I'm building (117). I have the PV and I can get the wide band option I guess. The pipes should have both sensor mounts on them. Or I get a TTS and lock the thing just so I can take it to Bob. 

[wurk_truk]

I will find out after a bit about key codes and ABS.  I have a direct link that can do both, and if THAT can access a bike with TTS, then I would assume a DT AND a TS could also.  If I were Mike, I would wonder, too.

Mike, there ARE some that pull a TTS base Cal and convert it to their own.  Remember this:  who in this industry has the original programmer from Delphi?  Sure is NOT dyno jet.  Anyways, there are like 100 tables in THAT programmer, and if Steve changes one of THOSE points, it is EASY for him to see if someone is doing exactly what you say you wish to do with a stock cal.

It HAS finally dawned upon me, from talking to you, that this can very well be a big problem.  A few years back, (2008 late), GM instituted a policy that says ANY changes to the ECM voids the powertrain portion of a warranty.  And...  the GM dealer computers can tell if the ECM has EVER been flashed, whether the stock tune is in the car, at the moment.

So, a tuned then de-tuned vette or diesel hits the lot...  how does a buyer really know if his warranty from GM is still intact?  WTF.  I never considered one would keep the VCI and do a two bike upgrade.....  I feel this IS an issue TTS needs to work on.

[mayor]

How was it not originally a Delphi based cal?  The cals are designed to work in a Delphi system, and there is no plausible explanation of how they came about other than cals were developed using an existing cal as the foundation. 

[ToBeFrank]

Didn't realize you had any product that logged data off the ECM or program the ECM.  How many parts of the ECM does your code go into?

All of it, but it's not a "product". It's my hobby code.

[ToBeFrank]

How was it not originally a Delphi based cal?  The cals are designed to work in a Delphi system, and there is no plausible explanation of how they came about other than cals were developed using an existing cal as the foundation.

You're correct. There are three areas of the ECM: bootloader, application (I think TTS calls this program or OS), and calibration. The calibration is nothing but data... tables, constants, etc. A calibration is completely useless without the application, and the application dictates what the calibration looks like... table sizes, locations, etc. The application was written by Delphi/Harley.

[strokerjlk]

I Have a DT but no TTS bikes that I know of to test ... 

my direct link wont get the ECM info post 1.57
the DT I have used wont get the ECM info either. post 1.57
we were not doing brake/radio work so I dont know about that. the way I understand it you can do the abs/radio without DT. but if you want to use DT to do it it wont work.
I dont do brakes or radios so I dont really care on my end.
what I dont like is, maintaining every ones MTE.

[ToBeFrank]

my direct link wont get the ECM info post 1.57
the DT I have used wont get the ECM info either. post 1.57

Not saying you're wrong, just musing...

This is interesting because getting that information doesn't require unlocking (security-wise, not TTS unlock) the ECM. It's a simple command to get that info from the EEPROM. I wouldn't have thought the TTS lock would break this.

[HV]

You can bleed a ABS manually ...no other way to power bleed the ABS Modulator that I know of aside from a DT ...you can load a new Radio update with a CD ..but if you have a new uncalibrated one I'm not sure if that would work ... The ability to use a DT for an Indy is irrelevant ...for a dealer to not be able to access the ECM with it would make them assume the ECM is toast ..as I said not many know anything about a TTS or have even heard of one

[wurk_truk]

When they ride in all happy and the bike is sounding good.  They lost their fob,  or want a brake change and the person running the DT will say the ECM is bad is so much BS.  THAT is just dumb.

But....  I DO agree TTS should handle this differently.

[FLTRI]

..as I said not many know anything about a TTS or have even heard of one

...unless they own a Dyno.
Bob

[HV]

I know a lot that have Dynos and use nothing but SESPT or Power commander units... and have no clue WTF a TTS is

If they ride in with a lost FOB or Brake issue and can not fix it because something has locked the ECM is BS

[wurk_truk]

I'm NOT going to keep everyone's MTE, I am going to post those MTEs in the TTS repository for the next guy, along with a thumb drive with it all on it.

That is NOT going to help "Potty mouth" when someone is out of town.  I do NOT expect a dealer to have, nor know how to run ANY tuning program.  Even SEPST.  Maybe SEST is about it.  This is an issue, I figure.  If TTS sells thousands of units yearly, which they do... and we on ALL the forums number a few thousand.  There are tens of thousands of folks that have NO clue whats going on.

ANd Mike....  Delhi wrote 'word', the folks that make the base cals is using 'word' to make a document.  That 'document' is SURELY intellectual property, even if they used Word to write it with.  Stealing any base cals that have identifiable markers would be theft of intellectual property.  Delhi made the base cals with MOCO.  Steve, with the SERT, made the first of all of the different base cals.  Steve has the only PC that has Delphi's "Word' on it.     SO, if I take your document, written in Word, and NO ONE else HAS Word, but uses adobe to steal and publish my results, that's OK?  I fully well realize that even SC has done the fast and loose.  But two weeks ago, he ran a Dyna with ten different cams with two different exhausts.  Isn't THAT his property?  Isn't it HIS property if he turns off torque management using his delphi tool that a distributor has NO frigging access to?  See?  We all KNOW who is doing this, too.

[wurk_truk]

Brian, where you are located is NOT typical... you know this, right?  Dealers around here know all the various tuners, they may have only of heard of them, but they know.  Now...  I 100% AGREE... if TTS locks out brakes, fobs etc.  THAT is BS.

We need to get Robin to test this all out.  Because, you, Brian, make it sound like that IS the deal when it is not necessarily so.  You are just making WAGs.

Saying that TTS does this for intellectual integrity for tuners tunes is also ludicrous.  I, me, was THE person to report on MT8s here on HTT.  There was NO mention at all that an MT8 used multiple sections of the ECM to stop...  dealers from erasing custom tunes....  I call BS on THAT one for sure.

[ToBeFrank]

ANd Mike....  Delhi wrote 'word', the folks that make the base cals is using 'word' to make a document.  That 'document' is SURELY intellectual property, even if they used Word to write it with.

Your analogy is not correct. To make it correct, you'd have to say Delphi wrote 'word', and created a document with it. Then someone else came along, modified Delphi's document, and then distributed it as their own document. Unless an agreement has been made, the new document is still Delphi's IP.

[HV]

Wurk  yes true where I am is not the norm... HOWEVER ...I have attended Harley training centers from all across Canada  East to west Coast and including taught by Engineers from the Factory ..as well as talked to Techs involved with apprenticeship training all across the country...and trust me... Id safely say 70 to 80 % have never heard of a TTS or HTT for that matter... 

[rigidthumper]

Brian, where you are located is NOT typical... you know this, right?  Dealers around here know all the various tuners, they may have only of heard of them, but they know.  Now...  I 100% AGREE... if TTS locks out brakes, fobs etc.  THAT is BS.

We need to get Robin to test this all out.  Because, you, Brian, make it sound like that IS the deal when it is not necessarily so.  You are just making WAGs.

Saying that TTS does this for intellectual integrity for tuners tunes is also ludicrous.  I, me, was THE person to report on MT8s here on HTT.  There was NO mention at all that an MT8 used multiple sections of the ECM to stop...  dealers from erasing custom tunes....  I call BS on THAT one for sure.

OK- what do you need done?
I have a 2010 Touring model with ABS  and radio w/boom audio amp.
I have the TTS dongle, as well as the SEPST VCI,married to this bike. MTE stored. I have TR Centurian and Direct Link, PC5, PC Autotune WB, TS2+ and TS3, WEGO, ETC.

What tests do you want to see?
Robin

[mayor]

OK- what do you need done?
I have a 2010 Touring model with ABS  and radio w/boom audio amp.
I have the TTS dongle, as well as the SEPST VCI,married to this bike. MTE stored. I have TR Centurian and Direct Link, PC5, PC Autotune WB, TS2+ and TS3, WEGO, ETC.

What tests do you want to see?
Robin

can you verify that digital tech can be used to work on abs with a bike that has been mt8 flashed? 

[HV]

Flash a Radio update or Calibration ...and update the ABS or power bleed the ABS using a DT wile the MT8 flash is in the ECM...get a local tech to try ...

[HV]

DT doesn't actually bleed fluid..just cycles the ASB Module to rid it of air ..system remains closed

[Coyote]

Also can you assign a new key fob or marry a hfsm or tssm with an mt8 loaded 

[ToBeFrank]

The test I think is more relevant is to run some of the DT diagnostic tools. I think most of them require unlocking the ECM (again, security-wise, not TTS lock). Clearing AFV definitely does. I'd think it's very likely a tech will run one of those and if it doesn't work, will think the ECM is bad.

[rbabos]

Wurk  yes true where I am is not the norm... HOWEVER ...I have attended Harley training centers from all across Canada  East to west Coast and including taught by Engineers from the Factory ..as well as talked to Techs involved with apprenticeship training all across the country...and trust me... Id safely say 70 to 80 % have never heard of a TTS or HTT for that matter... 

I'd agree. Southern Ontario is the most populated and practically nobody knows about the TTS. Most get dealer tunes and ride on, most of them don't know a good tune from bad unless it's really fkd up. I'd be most don't know what a PV is either. Forums are a really small % of what's really going on out there and so is the info within these forums. Otherwords 99% of Harley riders are fat dumb and happy. Us 1% drive ourselves nuts with tuning or whatever is posted as the latest and greatest. Strangley enough almost every rider knows what a Power Commander is.
Ron

[HV]

Ron I have to agree ...you ask most riders what they would use to tune a bike and they will say a Power Commander ( not that they know WTF it is or how it works ) ... most Dealers use a SESPT and have no clue how to Smart tune with it.... Id safely say I have the only PV in the Atlantic Provinces or even know WTF one is..     A bud just got back from the HD Training in Alberta....of ALL the guys there NONE had a clue how to smart tune ..and no one had heard of a PV or a TTS 

[lonewolf]

  A bud just got back from the HD Training in Alberta....of ALL the guys there NONE had a clue how to smart tune ..and no one had heard of a PV or a TTS

Or Andrews, Woods, Tman, Baisley etc.

[FLTRI]

Robin,
Other than reprogram the ECM, what else does using this calibration (MT8) "lock out" of dealer tech/DT access to?
Thanks,
Bob

[mayor]

Other than reprogram the ECM, what else does using this calibration (MT8) "lock out" of dealer tech/DT access to?

my question exactly.  If it's only the calibration in the ecm, then this likely isn't a big deal (unless you bought a bike with a locked ecm that you want to upgrade, like coyote's old bike).   

[wolf_59]

Other than reprogram the ECM, what else does using this calibration (MT8) "lock out" of dealer tech/DT access to?

my question exactly.  If it's only the calibration in the ecm, then this likely isn't a big deal (unless you bought a bike with a locked ecm that you want to upgrade, like coyote's old bike).   

Even then would a Power Commander, SEPST, Direct Link, Power Vision tune over the top of a MT8 cal. ?

[FLTRI]

...(unless you bought a bike with a locked ecm that you want to upgrade, like coyote's old bike).

When/if that occurs a quick call to TTS will resolve it one way or another...but resolved...unlike SESPT which has no public access to customer support at all.

With SESPT you soon realize you are on your own. AFAIK this is the only piece of publicly available software that has no tech service for their product.

That said, presenting a dealer with a SESPT tuning issue will, at best, will generate a call to Tech Services. They, in turn, contact SPX/Kent-Moore with their interpretation of the issue that was related to them from the user. If there is no question needed to be answered before offering a resolve...maybe, just maybe, you will get an answer/possible resolve in a couple days.

Typically it has been a complete waste of breath and time as there is no direct connect from the customer to technical help from the MOCO. Too much hear one thing, say something else, etc.
Just my experiences,
Bob

[HV]

We all know tech support for the SESPT does not exist ...whats that got to do with finding out if a TTS locks a DT out of the ECM ? ...or is that a shot at changing the subject ? 

[ToBeFrank]

Other than reprogram the ECM, what else does using this calibration (MT8) "lock out" of dealer tech/DT access to?

my question exactly.  If it's only the calibration in the ecm, then this likely isn't a big deal (unless you bought a bike with a locked ecm that you want to upgrade, like coyote's old bike).   

Even then would a Power Commander, SEPST, Direct Link, Power Vision tune over the top of a MT8 cal. ?

A power commander? Yes, because it's a piggyback. The others? No. Anything that needs to program the ECM is locked out.

[wolf_59]

Other than reprogram the ECM, what else does using this calibration (MT8) "lock out" of dealer tech/DT access to?

my question exactly.  If it's only the calibration in the ecm, then this likely isn't a big deal (unless you bought a bike with a locked ecm that you want to upgrade, like coyote's old bike).   

Even then would a Power Commander, SEPST, Direct Link, Power Vision tune over the top of a MT8 cal. ?

A power commander? Yes, because it's a piggyback. The others? No. Anything that needs to program the ECM is locked out.

Thanks Frank that is what I thought on the Power Commander just wasn't sure on the others

[rigidthumper]

I can check.  You just want ABS brake bleed procedure via DT verified with TTS MT8 map in the ECM?
Flash a Radio update or Calibration: will check
Robin,
Other than reprogram the ECM, what else does using this calibration (MT8) "lock out" of dealer tech/DT access to?
Thanks,
Bob- Ill try to determine that exactly.

[Coyote]

I can check.  You just want ABS brake bleed procedure via DT verified with TTS MT8 map in the ECM?

I'm guessing the abs bleed is going to work since it's a separate processor but I suspect the other items may not.

Also can you assign a new key fob or marry a hfsm or tssm with an mt8 loaded 

[rigidthumper]

Also can you assign a new key fob or marry a hfsm or tssm with an mt8 loaded
Ill check that, too.

[HV]

The bleed should work like Keith says...diff processor ....the radio is put in to diagnostics more when ever the ECM reflash is started...if it can communicate with the radio with out attempting to change anything in the ECM it may work...but at least we will find out for sure one way or another... 

[Coyote]

Also can you assign a new key fob or marry a hfsm or tssm with an mt8 loaded
Ill check that, too.

Thanks Robin. Will be good to finally know.

[wolf_59]

Also can you assign a new key fob or marry a hfsm or tssm with an mt8 loaded
Ill check that, too.

Thanks Robin. Will be good to finally know.

here is a thread that discusses the DT and ABS with TTS but it was diagnosing a problem http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,50787.msg538052.html#msg538052

[hrdtail78]

TTS has been locking the ECM since 09.  Its 2013 and we are just finding what this locked ECM problem really is?  Shows me.  It might not be the problem guys have made it out to be.  Always look at this site as having some of the most resources.

I do know you can use the TS bleed brake function with a TTS locked ECM.

Any flash tuner you have.  Not caring what it is.  If a dealer wipes your custom cal.  You will need that cal and VCI to put your custom cal back into the ECM.  Hopefully you do have your VCI, and not just a key.  All the problems are still there.

[hrdtail78]

When they ride in all happy and the bike is sounding good.  They lost their fob,  or want a brake change and the person running the DT will say the ECM is bad is so much BS.  THAT is just dumb.

But....  I DO agree TTS should handle this differently.

They lost thier fob?  No problem.  They read the warning label when they bought the bike and went through the owners manual.  Read how to override security right?  The person that sold them the bike went over that detail.  Right?

[hrdtail78]

A bigger issue is what happens with a used bike some poor sole buys and has no idea its been zapped with a TTS ? there should be a warning label provided to stick on the ECM... " Warning TTS Tuned for issues contact the Manufacture " and a PH# for Whomever is working on it ....so they can at least get info on what to do ..........Not all Techs either Dealer or Indy read HTT

Another warning label to ignore?  When I sold my 06.  I sold the bike, MTE, and a copy of the tune.  I explianed to the guy about his ECM and he wasn't getting the VCI for the price he wanted the bike for.  If he ever wanted into his ECM he would need to buy a TTS.  He understood, and had the option for me to reload his MTE.  Or for another $300.  He could of had the VCI.  He chose to leave it alone.  30,000 miles later.  Not one problem.  I do my best to be forthing coming and honest with my customers.  Repeat customers keep these doors open, and the bills paid.  Why did I want my VCI?  To make it a dual and program my new bike with it.  It's cheaper than buying a new TTS for my new bike.

[wurk_truk]

I, myself, think you guys have comeup with something that I am going to use.   Some sort of sticker near the ECM that says Buckeye Tuning has custom tuned this bike and please, before hooking up the DT to call ....

I feel that I WILL like tuning with the DL, AND PV, which BOTH takes keys.  Also, my main deal is TTS and this can possibly stop some issues.

Thanks Robin for coming in on here.  I feel the ECM is NOT locked out of things like some figure.  Getting a definitive answer from you, will answer this once and for all.

Ummmmm....  I have NO agenda in this.  No hate, etc.  All I wish to do is find the TRUTH of some things and move forward accordingly.  I know DL cannot talk to the ECM with an MT8.  But??  How about Centurion?  With ABS bleed and the ability for Fobs, that would be my equivalent to a DT.

Between taking care of Kathi, and work.  I really am limited in giving any time to playing around.  But...  dammit, I wish to do so.

Mayor.  Here is where I am at on that.  In the early part of last decade, I wrote, using a standard PLC language, a few programs for door controls for various manufactures' car wash machines.  I was OEM, for one, and the rest...  I was a low cost alternative.  Most of those eventually realized the niche I had staked out.  That's fine once they offered their own version of low cost.

How about the one MFG, that took my program and started to sell it themselves.  THAT is what pisses me off on this.  Steve sets his base cals up a certain way.  So do all of the majors in this area.  What pisses ME off is not offering base cals they developed themselves, nor base cals, like Fullsac, etc., for their own products.  What pisses me OFF is a distributor making base cals pulling TTS cals, and then offering them as his own, and SAYING they are his own.  So, let's end that part because it doesn't further the OP and the directions this thread has moved into, OK.

Let's concentrate on dispelling some myths, using Robin.  I am sure we can all agree he will be fair and report the truth, right?

[wurk_truk]

When they ride in all happy and the bike is sounding good.  They lost their fob,  or want a brake change and the person running the DT will say the ECM is bad is so much BS.  THAT is just dumb.

But....  I DO agree TTS should handle this differently.

They lost thier fob?  No problem.  They read the warning label when they bought the bike and went through the owners manual.  Read how to override security right?  The person that sold them the bike went over that detail.  Right?

I was being sarcastic.  If a tech at a dealer is too dumb to realize a bike was running perfect, how can they think it is toast?  Enough to take the bike out of service?  THAT is what is too dumb to me.  I have met some really good techs at dealers across the country, but feel that is NOT the norm at all.  What you and I think as common sense, is NOT being used at all times.

[mayor]

I, myself, think you guys have comeup with something that I am going to use.   Some sort of sticker near the ECM that says Buckeye Tuning has custom tuned this bike and please, before hooking up the DT to call ....

I feel that I WILL like tuning with the DL, AND PV, which BOTH takes keys.  Also, my main deal is TTS and this can possibly stop some issues.

I think a sticker of some sort is a good idea.  I think we as a group tried to talk Steve into a sticker a while back, as insurance but that never went anywhere.  I think one from the tuning shop is a good idea, since that would also work as advertising. 

Thanks Robin for coming in on here.  I feel the ECM is NOT locked out of things like some figure.  Getting a definitive answer from you, will answer this once and for all.

Ummmmm....  I have NO agenda in this.  No hate, etc.  All I wish to do is find the TRUTH of some things and move forward accordingly.  I know DL cannot talk to the ECM with an MT8.  But??  How about Centurion?  With ABS bleed and the ability for Fobs, that would be my equivalent to a DT.

Let's concentrate on dispelling some myths, using Robin.  I am sure we can all agree he will be fair and report the truth, right?

I am the same way.  I have no agenda what so ever either.  I just want to know how this would affect me personally with my new bike.  I like the TTS system, but the locking of the ecm is a real concern for me.
 
If Robin comes back that there are no issues, then I'll drop the subject and move on.   

[ToBeFrank]

The test I think is more relevant is to run some of the DT diagnostic tools. I think most of them require unlocking the ECM (again, security-wise, not TTS lock). Clearing AFV definitely does. I'd think it's very likely a tech will run one of those and if it doesn't work, will think the ECM is bad.

Make sure you test this, also. Steve said they changed the security key. If that's the case, this stuff will break. I suspect Steve didn't mean they actually changed the security key, just "effectively" changed the key by modifying the process. So the diagnostic features should still work.

[rigidthumper]

So I drove to the shop this morning, and tried some things. Using the Digital Tech, I tried:
Acr enable / disable.   No
Eitms    No
Cruise Enable.      No
Abs  bleed procedure.  Yes
Hfsm customization. Yes
Pin yes
Afv reset. Failed
Module replacement.     Failed. Unable to unlock ECM.
Reflash radio.  Yes (took 2 tries)
ABS reflash.   Yes
This is on a 2010 FLTRX w/old style VCI and DTW009-003 base map.
HTH
Robin

[Coyote]

So I drove to the shop this morning, and tried some things. Using the Digital Tech, I tried:
Acr enable / disable.   No
Eitms    No
Cruise Enable.      No
Abs  bleed procedure.  Yes
Hfsm customization. Yes
Pin yes
Afv reset. Failed
Module replacement.     Failed. Unable to unlock ECM.
Reflash radio.  Yes (took 2 tries)
ABS reflash.   Yes
This is on a 2010 FLTRX w/old style VCI and DTW009-003 base map.
HTH
Robin

Thanks Robin

[HV]

Thanks Robin ..that at least clears up some rumours .....

[mayor]

so if I'm reading what Robin posted correctly, anything not related directly to the ECM was reachable/programable by the digital tech eventhough the bike was programed with an mt8.  Is that right? 

Thanks Robin!

[rigidthumper]

Seems that way to me

[rigidthumper]

And  FWIW, I reflashed the MTE into the bike, all functions worked normal.

[FLTRI]

so if I'm reading what Robin posted correctly, anything not related directly to the ECM was reachable/programable by the digital tech eventhough the bike was programed with an mt8.  Is that right? 

Thanks Robin!

Are you good to go with TTS now?
Gotta be really careful who you listen to because ulterior motives and personality conflicts.
Some live to get around copy protection schemes ...and get pissed when they are derailed. There is always new pirating challenges.
Bob

[strokerjlk]

so if I'm reading what Robin posted correctly, anything not related directly to the ECM was reachable/programable by the digital tech eventhough the bike was programed with an mt8.  Is that right? 

Thanks Robin!

Module replacement.     Failed. Unable to unlock ECM.
It can't unlock the ECM .
Same thing I have seen.

[ToBeFrank]

so if I'm reading what Robin posted correctly, anything not related directly to the ECM was reachable/programable by the digital tech eventhough the bike was programed with an mt8.  Is that right? 

Thanks Robin!

What am I missing? It looks to me like the following indicate that the diagnostic tools in the DT will indeed fail, probably causing the tech using them to think your ECM is bad. I'm 100% sure the AFV reset does not require a reprogram. It only needs the security key to unlock the ECM. The diagnostic tools also only require the security key.

So I drove to the shop this morning, and tried some things. Using the Digital Tech, I tried:
Afv reset. Failed
Module replacement.     Failed. Unable to unlock ECM.

[FLTRI]

so if I'm reading what Robin posted correctly, anything not related directly to the ECM was reachable/programable by the digital tech eventhough the bike was programed with an mt8.  Is that right? 

Thanks Robin!

What am I missing? It looks to me like the following indicate that the diagnostic tools in the DT will indeed fail, probably causing the tech using them to think your ECM is bad. I'm 100% sure the AFV reset does not require a reprogram. It only needs the security key to unlock the ECM. The diagnostic tools also only require the security key.

So I drove to the shop this morning, and tried some things. Using the Digital Tech, I tried:
Afv reset. Failed
Module replacement.     Failed. Unable to unlock ECM.

Yes, you are missing something. Don't want just any tech to fu&k with the tune. They don't need to reset AFV.
Module replacement.    Failed?
Why would anyone want a dealer replacing their ECM?...unless of course it failed.
...and the resolve to any TTS issue is no more than a phone call away for dealer personnel.
Bob

[ToBeFrank]

so if I'm reading what Robin posted correctly, anything not related directly to the ECM was reachable/programable by the digital tech eventhough the bike was programed with an mt8.  Is that right? 

Thanks Robin!

What am I missing? It looks to me like the following indicate that the diagnostic tools in the DT will indeed fail, probably causing the tech using them to think your ECM is bad. I'm 100% sure the AFV reset does not require a reprogram. It only needs the security key to unlock the ECM. The diagnostic tools also only require the security key.

So I drove to the shop this morning, and tried some things. Using the Digital Tech, I tried:
Afv reset. Failed
Module replacement.     Failed. Unable to unlock ECM.

Yes, you are missing something. Don't want just any tech to fu&k with the tune. They don't need to reset AFV.
Module replacement.    Failed?
Why would anyone want a dealer replacing their ECM?...unless of course it failed.
...and the resolve to any TTS issue is no more than a phone call away for dealer personnel.
Bob

There are diagnostic tools in the DT that help techs diagnose problems. The DT puts the ECM in a special mode so the DT can do the diagnostics. Putting the ECM in diagnostics mode requires unlocking it with the security key. Both of the above failures indicate that TTS did indeed change the security key. This means the diagnostic features of the DT will now fail to work. If a tech runs the tools and they fail to run, what else will he do but assume the ECM is bad? The diagnostic tools should never fail to run on a working ECM.

[rbabos]

so if I'm reading what Robin posted correctly, anything not related directly to the ECM was reachable/programable by the digital tech eventhough the bike was programed with an mt8.  Is that right? 

Thanks Robin!

What am I missing? It looks to me like the following indicate that the diagnostic tools in the DT will indeed fail, probably causing the tech using them to think your ECM is bad. I'm 100% sure the AFV reset does not require a reprogram. It only needs the security key to unlock the ECM. The diagnostic tools also only require the security key.

So I drove to the shop this morning, and tried some things. Using the Digital Tech, I tried:
Afv reset. Failed
Module replacement.     Failed. Unable to unlock ECM.

Yes, you are missing something. Don't want just any tech to fu&k with the tune. They don't need to reset AFV.
Module replacement.    Failed?
Why would anyone want a dealer replacing their ECM?...unless of course it failed.
...and the resolve to any TTS issue is no more than a phone call away for dealer personnel.
Bob

Two things wrong with this. First off the dealer tech won't have a clue what's going on and secondly I doubt very much he would call Steve Cole if he did. They work within the scope of their tools and knowledge based on what MoCo set forth. One has to look at it as world wide.
Ron

[strokerjlk]

so if I'm reading what Robin posted correctly, anything not related directly to the ECM was reachable/programable by the digital tech eventhough the bike was programed with an mt8.  Is that right? 

Thanks Robin!

What am I missing? It looks to me like the following indicate that the diagnostic tools in the DT will indeed fail, probably causing the tech using them to think your ECM is bad. I'm 100% sure the AFV reset does not require a reprogram. It only needs the security key to unlock the ECM. The diagnostic tools also only require the security key.

So I drove to the shop this morning, and tried some things. Using the Digital Tech, I tried:
Afv reset. Failed
Module replacement.     Failed. Unable to unlock ECM.

Yes, you are missing something. Don't want just any tech to fu&k with the tune. They don't need to reset AFV.
Module replacement.    Failed?
Why would anyone want a dealer replacing their ECM?...unless of course it failed.
...and the resolve to any TTS issue is no more than a phone call away for dealer personnel.
Bob

Two things wrong with this. First off the dealer tech won't have a clue what's going on and secondly I doubt very much he would call Steve Cole if he did. They work within the scope of their tools and knowledge based on what MoCo set forth. One has to look at it as world wide.
Ron

A lot of the techs think/ call it a  kuryakyn tuner also.

[FLTRI]

I think the key is changed every time a marriage occurs.
Makes it damn near impossible to hack.
I'm sure more protection is coming for the customer and TTS.
But thats just an assumption.
I have no issues as I'm not trying to bust code. 
Bob

[rigidthumper]

OK, I need to clarify something:
Module replacement is typically used for TSM/TSSM  replacement such as what happens when someone chooses to switch from security to no security. (I have to do this for repo companies who don't get the fobs on the bikes they repossess) That didn't work. If you are purposely replacing the ECM, it should be blank ( new ECMs always are) and shouldn't be an issue. 
As far as DT guided diagnostics, they worked like normal to troubleshoot ( I induced faults, and used guided diagnostics via DT).   That function worked fine.
HTH

[mayor]

so if I'm reading what Robin posted correctly, anything not related directly to the ECM was reachable/programable by the digital tech eventhough the bike was programed with an mt8.  Is that right? 

Seems that way to me

Are you good to go with TTS now?

based on what Robin just posted about the DT diagnostics still working after a TTS tune locked the ECM, I think that my concerns are satisfied.     I still wouldn't run a dual bike VCI from TTS, but that's more due to the assumption that at some point one of the two bikes would be sure to be no longer needed/wanted in my personal fleet and the next owner may want to access his/her ecm at some point.   

[ToBeFrank]

based on what Robin just posted about the DT diagnostics still working after a TTS tune locked the ECM, I think that my concerns are satisfied.

I agree. Although I am surprised that works but clearing AFV doesn't.

[HV]

The Guided diagnostics works?? interesting ... Sorry Ill stick with less intrusive Tuners ...but as I said....not many in my end of the country even use the TTS any way ....and we still will not take a used bike on trade thats been tuned with one...if you want to do any upgrades down the road you are up the creek.. 

[FLTRI]

...if you want to do any upgrades down the road you are up the creek.. 

No more an with any other tuner that marries itself to the ECM.
Without the VCI you are up the same creek for recalibrations for upgrades, right?
If I didn't know better I would guess you have a personal issue with SC, therefore it makes no difference to you which system is best. It's about not doing business with SC?
Bob

[mayor]

...if you want to do any upgrades down the road you are up the creek.. 

No more an with any other tuner that marries itself to the ECM.
Without the VCI you are up the same creek for recalibrations for upgrades, right?

I think he's talking about if you buy a bike that is already locked with TTS and you don't have a VCI for that bike.  Since none of the other systems will be able to overwrite the ECM, you are done making changes to that ecm. 

Does anyone know if you can use a new TTS VCI to pull the base cal out of a TTS locked bike, meaning if I bought a used bike that was locked can I flash that bike with a new TTS unit? I know the base cal wouldn't be the stock mte, but would this allow you to at least marry a new VCI to the bike? 

[Coyote]

I would think you can write another MT8 over a previous one using a different/new VCI. I do not think you can retrieve the cal however so it would be a start from scratch.

[Scotty]

Does anyone know if you can use a new TTS VCI to pull the base cal out of a TTS locked bike, meaning if I bought a used bike that was locked can I flash that bike with a new TTS unit? I know the base cal wouldn't be the stock mte, but would this allow you to at least marry a new VCI to the bike?

Yes only a TTS can overwrite a TTS calibration so if you have a bike locked with a TTS you can buy a new VCI and carry on as normal.

I notice everyone thinks it is only the MT8 files that lock out the ECM!!

MT6 & MT7 files do as well if they have been flashed on with v1.60 or above of the TTS software.

[mayor]

If I didn't know better I would guess you have a personal issue with SC, therefore it makes no difference to you which system is best. It's about not doing business with SC?

why does these type of conversations always have to drift towards claims of personal conflict issues?    Can't HV or the dealership that he works for just not like the fact that the HD ECM is locked out for programming access for HD techs by the TTS tune? This seems quite logical to me, especially since they are not a TTS dealer.  If I was working at a dealership and someone wanted to trade a TTS tuned bike in, I would ask for the VCI and original MTE, or I would substantially discount the trade in value of that bike (less ECM cost and programming fees).  Afterall, if you sell the bike with any type of warranty I would think that full future ECM access should be included.  Might complicate things more if that same dealership was scheduled to do some upgrades that involved tuning.  I personally have no issue with SC, or any issue with buying TTS products, but since I'm raising legitimate concerns am I now a labeled as a hater as well?  I certainly hope not, but I will say I have no intent I've giving up honest dialogue for the sake of someone else's concerns with negative marketing issues. 

[mayor]

Does anyone know if you can use a new TTS VCI to pull the base cal out of a TTS locked bike, meaning if I bought a used bike that was locked can I flash that bike with a new TTS unit? I know the base cal wouldn't be the stock mte, but would this allow you to at least marry a new VCI to the bike?

Yes only a TTS can overwrite a TTS calibration so if you have a bike locked with a TTS you can buy a new VCI and carry on as normal.

I notice everyone thinks it is only the MT8 files that lock out the ECM!!

MT6 & MT7 files do as well if they have been flashed on with v1.60 or above of the TTS software.

Thanks.  I guess the only downfall is you no longer have the MTE, and you are tied to using TTS exclusively (if you know TTS will work, and that it exists). 

I think most of us know about the V1.6 and up, but we use mt8 since this is the latest tune code and most are unaware of what software version TTS is up to right now. 

[BVHOG]

The Guided diagnostics works?? interesting ... Sorry Ill stick with less intrusive Tuners ...but as I said....not many in my end of the country even use the TTS any way ....and we still will not take a used bike on trade thats been tuned with one...if you want to do any upgrades down the road you are up the creek.. 

Interesting, if not for yourself the dealership would likely not even know about the lockout issue. Just finished up another tune with a Super Tuner and for the most part it seems that is what I am now seeing the most of since I no longer recommend the TTS. The ones I see are the guys that know about it through the forums. I will keep updated and service it but will never purchase new again.  The dual slot deal was nice before the lockout was initiated.  I can tell you the dyno owners around here likely don't know about TTS and why should they, most are  Harley-Davidson dealers and I would assume the MoCo would want them to use and support their product which only makes sense. I have yet to see a bike I couldn't tune with the Super tuner and the new software is greatly improved.

[ToBeFrank]

Yes only a TTS can overwrite a TTS calibration so if you have a bike locked with a TTS you can buy a new VCI and carry on as normal.

Not saying you're wrong since I have no idea, but have you actually tested this? If what Bob says here is correct:

I think the key is changed every time a marriage occurs.

I would think a new VCI would have no idea what the key is for an already locked ECM.

[HV]

Bob...I have no issues at all with Steve...just the Locking of the ECM by the TTS ...  I have no reason to use a TTS and I'm happy for Steve that he has such followers as you to back his products... I would hope that my not endorsing the TTS will not be held against me as being a SC Hater ...He has enough followers on here to support him I'm sure....as I said before most dealers in my end of the country have never even heard of a TTS nor do they know who the Heck SC is or do they give a Rats A$$ ... We use what we want for a tuner as most other HD Dealers do... protecting our customers is the reason we do not want a TTS Bike... the Issue all started when a customer wanted to buy a used bike from another shop that was imported from the USA and asked if we could do a 103 upgrade and tune it with a SESPT ... the new owner had no idea what had been used to tune it and had no VCI for it.. After we checked what CAL ID it had we told the customer we could not use a SESPT on that bike unless he either called TTS or replaced the ECM.... most other dealers would not have even known what CAL ID that was or why they could not access the ECM... needless to say the customer just said forget it ill find another bike with less issues..     

If not using a TTS makes me a SC Hater...then does using one make me a SC Lover ? 

[Scotty]

Yes only a TTS can overwrite a TTS calibration so if you have a bike locked with a TTS you can buy a new VCI and carry on as normal.

Not saying you're wrong since I have no idea, but have you actually tested this? If what Bob says here is correct:
.

Yes did all the testing quite a while back and once a ECM has been flashed using v1.60 or higher of the software then other tuners and the DT are locked out from the ECM.

I don't think it writes a new key everytime all that SC has done is to change the security key on the ECM to a TTS specific one and that is why no others work as they are all based on what HD has put in.

[hrdtail78]

Doesn't lock out the TTS from retrieving codes. Or the TS for that matter.

[Shazam7561]

So let me ask this, I am using a tts mt7 file and have just installed a smart security system but have to have the fobs married to the bike. Is the dealer still going to be able to do this? Or will I have to flash the original file back into the ecm for the fobs to be programmed for the system?

[Coyote]

So let me ask this, I am using a tts mt7 file and have just installed a smart security system but have to have the fobs married to the bike. Is the dealer still going to be able to do this? Or will I have to flash the original file back into the ecm for the fobs to be programmed for the system?

Did you install a HFSM module or are you just adding the Smart Siren? (hint, did you have key fobs before or no?)

[Shazam7561]

No, this is a new system. It came with the tssm, 2 fobs amd the hfsm antenna. I was able to marry the tssm module to the ecm via the instruction found in another thread, so the bike will run now but will not arm due the fobs needing to be married to the system. When I first installed the bike started and then shut off. I did what the instruction in other thread said to do and now it will start and run. I also was able to go in and set code to bypass if fob is lost or left behind.

[Coyote]

I'm still not sure on the FOB assignment but if I read Robin's post right, it would indicate he could do this.

[08fxstc]

"The reason all other tuners can overwrite each other is because they follow the standard set by HD with the code."

Hey Scotty, if I have the TTS and I used a version that locks the ECM, can the PV or any other tuner overwrite the TTS straight up or does it still need the MTE file reloaded back in to unlock it?

[Scotty]

"The reason all other tuners can overwrite each other is because they follow the standard set by HD with the code."

Hey Scotty, if I have the TTS and I used a version that locks the ECM, can the PV or any other tuner overwrite the TTS straight up or does it still need the MTE file reloaded back in to unlock it?

Needs the MTE or send it to TTS in the USA to unlock

[08fxstc]

"The reason all other tuners can overwrite each other is because they follow the standard set by HD with the code."

Hey Scotty, if I have the TTS and I used a version that locks the ECM, can the PV or any other tuner overwrite the TTS straight up or does it still need the MTE file reloaded back in to unlock it?

Needs the MTE or send it to TTS in the USA to unlock

Thanks

[autoworker]

HD modified the seed/key algorithm for the 2011 models and in a special way..............

SC copied the special way with changes and applied it to the TTS to lock out all other tuners.

The reason all other tuners can overwrite each other is because they follow the standard set by HD with the code.

I even have tech notes here from the PV's early days when they could not work out the seed/key for the newer ECM's

[/quote]

That right there is quite a bit of good information.
Thanks for the heads up.

[Jeffd]

I think one issue is that SC and TTS is a one man show and one person is not available 24/7 just can't happen and while I have had good luck getting a hold of him some of the time, some of the time I have not been able to.  And what happens at some point in the furture if he gets sick or disabled? we are not immortals that is for sure. If you are broke down in BFE you may be sol.  In my neck of the woods (some would say the sticks) Montana there is no dealer that has heard of TTS.  I have tried to explain to them it is very similar to SEST etc and that it was developed by the same guy who developed the race tuner but they look at you like you had 3 eyes.  Maybe being associated with Kyurakyn (sp?) will help but does not seem like it so far. 
I personally do not think HV has been negative about TTS he just works at a HD shop and in doing so he should be loyal to SE, seems crazy not to be, I 100% believe him when he says most techs at HD shops have not heard of TTS.  I do wish Steve C was still posting here as seems like guys like me who have TTS and live in no mans land need him posting.   

[ViennaHog]

so if I'm reading what Robin posted correctly, anything not related directly to the ECM was reachable/programable by the digital tech eventhough the bike was programed with an mt8.  Is that right? 

Thanks Robin!

What am I missing? It looks to me like the following indicate that the diagnostic tools in the DT will indeed fail, probably causing the tech using them to think your ECM is bad. I'm 100% sure the AFV reset does not require a reprogram. It only needs the security key to unlock the ECM. The diagnostic tools also only require the security key.

So I drove to the shop this morning, and tried some things. Using the Digital Tech, I tried:
Afv reset. Failed
Module replacement.     Failed. Unable to unlock ECM.

Yes, you are missing something. Don't want just any tech to fu&k with the tune. They don't need to reset AFV.
Module replacement.    Failed?
Why would anyone want a dealer replacing their ECM?...unless of course it failed.
...and the resolve to any TTS issue is no more than a phone call away for dealer personnel.
Bob

security module replacement will fail.

[FSG]

Yes, you are missing something. Don't want just any tech to fu&k with the tune. They don't need to reset AFV.
Module replacement.    Failed?
Why would anyone want a dealer replacing their ECM?...unless of course it failed.
...and the resolve to any TTS issue is no more than a phone call away for dealer personnel.
Bob

Bob it seems to me that you and SC constantly miss the point, but then I'm not surprised.

What do you think Ferrari, Lotus, Porsche, BMW, Lamborghini, Ford, GM, Honda and a host of other manufacturers be they elite or other would do when someone takes in one of their products for service/repair only to find that they cannot communicate correctly with the ECM?  Do you really think they are going to call TTS/other to resolve the issue?  If you do then your living in dreamland. 

And so why should a HD Dealer be any different.

[ultraswede]

And so why should a HD Dealer be any different.

Of cause he wont be different!
(I know the question wasn't directed to me)

Adding to what has been said allready, its in the intrest of the dealer to replace the ECU!
If he doesent know about TTS, = new ECU = more profit.
If he does know about this TTS lock out, = new ECU = more profit and no hassle.

Why in the world would a dealer do anything else?

[1FSTRK]

Yes, you are missing something. Don't want just any tech to fu&k with the tune. They don't need to reset AFV.
Module replacement.    Failed?
Why would anyone want a dealer replacing their ECM?...unless of course it failed.
...and the resolve to any TTS issue is no more than a phone call away for dealer personnel.
Bob

Bob it seems to me that you and SC constantly miss the point, but then I'm not surprised.

What do you think Ferrari, Lotus, Porsche, BMW, Lamborghini, Ford, GM, Honda and a host of other manufacturers be they elite or other would do when someone takes in one of their products for service/repair only to find that they cannot communicate correctly with the ECM?  Do you really think they are going to call TTS/other to resolve the issue?  If you do then your living in dreamland. 

And so why should a HD Dealer be any different.

The sad truth is that is exactly why Independent shops exist. They fill the gap left by the kool aid drinking factory service departments that serve only the mother ship. An Indy shop or tuner will often be a true enthusiast himself, up to date on the latest products regardless of the manufacturer. An Indy tech will often proceed with more care when confronted with the unknown and call the manufacturer for instruction or help; after all they pay for their own screw ups. At the average dealer when they do not know, they charge ahead according to the lock step procedure and blame the customer for anything they destroy because the customer used non factory parts that do not fit the factory protocol. They assume no responsibility for being ignorant of what the rest of the industry is doing; they are the factory and the only ones that count.  FSG your very opinion on this reflects just that outlook. You find fault in TTS because it does not follow the HD line as others have done. Never mind it is as good a tuning device as any out there and better than most.

What happens when the custom tune for the custom motor is flashed over by the dealer and the bike runs just good enough to get the guy down the road but is so lean that it burns a cylinder? The dealer will take the same line, it was not their responsibility to know, it is their policy to flash in the latest updates, and their good intentions update policy trumps any actual damage done by their actions. After all how were they to know?

What happens when a bike comes in with S&S ez cams in it and the dealer tec does a compression test and sells the guy a motor job because of low compression, is it the customers fault or is it the fault of S&S for inventing the cams? Perhaps a large sticker on the gas tank above each spark plug stating; 'You cannot check CCP on this cylinder EZ cams installed".

It seems you are defending bad dealership policy with the old "everyone else does it" defense. It never got me off the hook with my dad and it will not work here either.

[BVHOG]

HD modified the seed/key algorithm for the 2011 models and in a special way..............

SC copied the special way with changes and applied it to the TTS to lock out all other tuners.

The reason all other tuners can overwrite each other is because they follow the standard set by HD with the code.

I even have tech notes here from the PV's early days when they could not work out the seed/key for the newer ECM's

As I said you only know what SC wants to tell you and he would not tell you the truth in any way, shape or form.

I would not trust him as far as I could comfortably spit a dead rat.
[/quote]

Interesting info, this was apparently the code that Direct Link had to work out as well, when I had my first 2011 model here they had me pull a bunch of fuses and then load a 2010 cal, after that the fuses could be put back in and programmed with the cals normally. A short time later they had it worked out to load 2011's normally. 
dead rat huh?  

[hrdtail78]

Wonder what would happen if you unplugged some of those same fuses for DT and TTS locked ECM.  I have seen Medallion gauges cause cals to stop loading at 18%. Right were the ECM is checking communication on that bus. 

[08fxstc]

Yes, you are missing something. Don't want just any tech to fu&k with the tune. They don't need to reset AFV.
Module replacement.    Failed?
Why would anyone want a dealer replacing their ECM?...unless of course it failed.
...and the resolve to any TTS issue is no more than a phone call away for dealer personnel.
Bob

Bob it seems to me that you and SC constantly miss the point, but then I'm not surprised.

What do you think Ferrari, Lotus, Porsche, BMW, Lamborghini, Ford, GM, Honda and a host of other manufacturers be they elite or other would do when someone takes in one of their products for service/repair only to find that they cannot communicate correctly with the ECM?  Do you really think they are going to call TTS/other to resolve the issue?  If you do then your living in dreamland. 

And so why should a HD Dealer be any different.

The sad truth is that is exactly why Independent shops exist. They fill the gap left by the kool aid drinking factory service departments that serve only the mother ship. An Indy shop or tuner will often be a true enthusiast himself, up to date on the latest products regardless of the manufacturer. An Indy tech will often proceed with more care when confronted with the unknown and call the manufacturer for instruction or help; after all they pay for their own screw ups. At the average dealer when they do not know, they charge ahead according to the lock step procedure and blame the customer for anything they destroy because the customer used non factory parts that do not fit the factory protocol. They assume no responsibility for being ignorant of what the rest of the industry is doing; they are the factory and the only ones that count.  FSG your very opinion on this reflects just that outlook. You find fault in TTS because it does not follow the HD line as others have done. Never mind it is as good a tuning device as any out there and better than most.

What happens when the custom tune for the custom motor is flashed over by the dealer and the bike runs just good enough to get the guy down the road but is so lean that it burns a cylinder? The dealer will take the same line, it was not their responsibility to know, it is their policy to flash in the latest updates, and their good intentions update policy trumps any actual damage done by their actions. After all how were they to know?

What happens when a bike comes in with S&S ez cams in it and the dealer tec does a compression test and sells the guy a motor job because of low compression, is it the customers fault or is it the fault of S&S for inventing the cams? Perhaps a large sticker on the gas tank above each spark plug stating; 'You cannot check CCP on this cylinder EZ cams installed".

It seems you are defending bad dealership policy with the old "everyone else does it" defense. It never got me off the hook with my dad and it will not work here either.

Don't think he is defending, just stating what does happen in the real world.

Any modifications made to the vehicle, including the TTS, are 100% up to the owner of the bike to disclose before anything is done, if for any reason they fail to do so, how are the dealers or Indy's going to know? It will only show as problems to them as they are going in blind.

Now if the bike has gone in for a specific problem to be fixed and part of the problem can be associated to the ECM, they try and hook up to it, they find they have limited access, assume its is a faulty ECM and replace it. I am pretty sure it just says "failed" not "tts locked" or similar when they plug in.

If the bike goes in because it is running rough, missing maybe, they plug in to look at a tune that they think is factory, they can't as it wont allow access, what are they going to do next? Replace the ECM. If they happen to flash over a custom tune and weren't advised it had had one, no way of knowing and not tuned with a product they use, then the onus was on the customer to relate this to them.

If they are not advised of changes made to the bike, they are well with in their rights to replace parts as needed to fix the problem if that is what the bike has been taken in for, no reason to contact customer or ring around because as far as they are aware they have found a problem and if like here, you sign giving permission for any work to be carried out on the said problem when the bike is dropped off.

Now I know that a lot of fella's on here will know to advise different things but that still leaves a wide scope of people that the thought wouldn't even cross their minds. On that point alone, I think a $0.20 sticker is well worth it just to cover every ones arse. The only problem I see with this is that a lot of dealers and Indy's will have nothing to do with any problems if they are not familiar with the product or changes, which is understandable.

[Coyote]

I keep seeing stuff written like "all the dealer has to do is call TTS" but the truth is the way the mechanics are setup with Harley, they can't afford to do that. They get paid a flat rate, and low at that, to fix warranty stuff. That's why they won't take time to debug an issue like a locked ECM. They have to quickly diagnose a problem and replace the defective parts, period.

So if they replace the ECM under warranty, it costs HD money. If they replace the ECM out of warranty, it cost the customer money. If they get on the phone with TTS, it cost the mechanic money. What would you do?

[hrdtail78]

The sad truth is that is exactly why Independent shops exist. They fill the gap left by the kool aid drinking factory service departments that serve only the mother ship. An Indy shop or tuner will often be a true enthusiast himself, up to date on the latest products regardless of the manufacturer. An Indy tech will often proceed with more care when confronted with the unknown and call the manufacturer for instruction or help; after all they pay for their own screw ups.

   

A locked ECM has never been a problem at my shop.  I don't own a DT.  I can marry TSSM long form.  TS allows ABS maint, and reads faults on locked ECMs.   

Support your local independent.

[joe_lyons]

I would suggest letting at least a year pass by before buying something new and not ironed out.  Phones, cars, tuners whatever it may be.  I waited a few years before i bought a PV because i wanted all of the issues ironed out and things streemlined.  SC gets things ironed out it just takes things a long while to do so.  It is the way it was, is and will be.  If people are worried about the dealers missing that it is tts tuned or whatever and reflash over it why not just name your tune file something obvious like "i am tts tuned do not reflash"  to grab some attention. 

[HV]

Cal Id is one issue more. The tts cals ids are almost identical to stock hd with one or 2 numbers switched. Race tuned ones from Harley say race tuned YES. Pv tunes are completely diff numbers all together.   But then again we are just making up more crap about the tts again lol


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[joe_lyons]

Pretty sure you can rename tts cals i know i can PV.

Renamed mine bastard thunderheader 2-1

[Jeffd]

Pretty sure you can rename tts cals i know i can PV.

yes

[rbabos]

Pretty sure you can rename tts cals i know i can PV.

Renamed mine bastard thunderheader 2-1

I've come up with a few choice names myself. Had several  Last Fkg One xxxxxxx
Ron

[wolf_59]

I would suggest letting at least a year pass by before buying something new and not ironed out.  Phones, cars, tuners whatever it may be.  I waited a few years before i bought a PV because i wanted all of the issues ironed out and things streemlined.  SC gets things ironed out it just takes things a long while to do so.  It is the way it was, is and will be.  If people are worried about the dealers missing that it is tts tuned or whatever and reflash over it why not just name your tune file something obvious like "i am tts tuned do not reflash"  to grab some attention. 

Joe, thats a great idea I think something like "ECM locked custom tune" That should let the techs know that the ecm is not bad and if they have questions they could always get with the owner.

[strokerjlk]

Pretty sure you can rename tts cals i know i can PV.

Renamed mine bastard thunderheader 2-1

seems to me the D/T just reads the cal ID. it dosent show ,,bastard thunderheader2-1 at the end of the ID. (when it can connect to the ECM).
cant say that I was looking real close ,other than at the cal ID.
but I always end in something like joelyonsfinal
I dont remember ever seeing the name just the ID? maybe you or robin can take a look

[joe_lyons]

Ill check tomorow with my old cable drive ecm and plug it onto another bike and take a pic a show what it says.

[strokerjlk]

Ill check tomorow with my old cable drive ecm and plug it onto another bike and take a pic a show what it says.

you have a vision for that one also?

[joe_lyons]

No orig. Tuned bike with PV while it was cable drive now it is fbw so i have my old ecm at work were I can check it with digital tech on another bike and see what it says the name of the tune/calibration is. 

[joe_lyons]

Here is from my cable drive ECM notice the Cal. ID. That number look familiar.  See just name it something obvious and any dealer should spot it.

[attachment removed after 60 days by system]

[strokerjlk]

Here is from my cable drive ECM notice the Cal. ID. That number look familiar.  See just name it something obvious and any dealer should spot it.

thats with a tts map in the ECM?

[joe_lyons]

Here is from my cable drive ECM notice the Cal. ID. That number look familiar.  See just name it something obvious and any dealer should spot it.

thats with a tts map in the ECM?

No that is with my PV but you rename the cals just the same with tts.

[hrdtail78]

Good stuff.  Thanks Joe.

[BVHOG]

Find the post were I said it would automatically saved the cal.  Find the post were I said as a beta tester. Steve said it would auto save the cal.  You can't.  Funny how the beta testers are always brought up by one. Where we all looking for the same thing?  Or in my case. Was I sent 6 blues and told to tune bikes and make sure one is a CAN bus. See if this gives you any hitches with your OS.  Different programs I tune with, more of how different computers are. I got to tune with them months before try where released.  That's back when you guys were blaming beta testers for missing the HD06 error. Then you guys realized if you actually plugged in a HD06. It went away.

The best part about some of this is. You guys are still so ate up by SC. You got him off the site. Just like the post in his section said you would. But..... You guys can't let him go. He and his product are still dominating this section. Seems people that don't have anything intelligent to say. Just take pot shots and stir it up.  I figure that is a win, win for SC. He doesn't have to spend his time on here anymore, and his product still is talked about.

Don't blame anyone for getting SC off the site, he did that all on his own, just read the continual responses he gave to people here where he continually talked down to them including the moderators, not a good idea. He got himself  banned here no matter how you look at it.  His products are dominating this this section due to the continual problems in trying to make the average Joe into a tuner and the rest is people unhappy about the lockup status.

[HogMike]

Find the post were I said it would automatically saved the cal.  Find the post were I said as a beta tester. Steve said it would auto save the cal.  You can't.  Funny how the beta testers are always brought up by one. Where we all looking for the same thing?  Or in my case. Was I sent 6 blues and told to tune bikes and make sure one is a CAN bus. See if this gives you any hitches with your OS.  Different programs I tune with, more of how different computers are. I got to tune with them months before try where released.  That's back when you guys were blaming beta testers for missing the HD06 error. Then you guys realized if you actually plugged in a HD06. It went away.

The best part about some of this is. You guys are still so ate up by SC. You got him off the site. Just like the post in his section said you would. But..... You guys can't let him go. He and his product are still dominating this section. Seems people that don't have anything intelligent to say. Just take pot shots and stir it up.  I figure that is a win, win for SC. He doesn't have to spend his time on here anymore, and his product still is talked about.

Don't blame anyone for getting SC off the site, he did that all on his own, just read the continual responses he gave to people here where he continually talked down to them including the moderators, not a good idea. He got himself  banned here no matter how you look at it.  His products are dominating this this section due to the continual problems in trying to make the average Joe into a tuner and the rest is people unhappy about the lockup status.

Probably not the best in the PR department.
But, most engineers are like that! IMHO

[strokerjlk]

Here is from my cable drive ECM notice the Cal. ID. That number look familiar.  See just name it something obvious and any dealer should spot it.

thats with a tts map in the ECM?

No that is with my PV but you rename the cals just the same with tts.

Thanks Joe
Wonder what a tts cal would say ?

[joe_lyons]

I think you can put just about anything in there PV or tts. 

[Jeffd]

I think you can put just about anything in there PV or tts.

when I had to go back for the abs brake recall last year I had my TTS cal named the same as the SE street legal calibration number and that is how it showed up.

[rigidthumper]

My TTS cal ID shows up as "badmufugga" on DT.
It used to have 32410-87A ( 1100 XL ignition module part number) just as a goof
I'll Try to get a screen shot next time it's hooked up.

[mayor]

Good stuff.  Thanks Joe.

  very good indeed Joe. 

My TTS cal ID shows up as "badmufugga" on DT.
It used to have 32410-87A ( 1100 XL ignition module part number) just as a goof
I'll Try to get a screen shot next time it's hooked up.

I think I might call mine "for a good time dial 1-800-Max-Headflow"   

[mayor]

His [SC] products are dominating this this section due to the continual problems in trying to make the average Joe into a tuner and the rest is people unhappy about the lockup status.

I don't disagree that there are quite a lot of posts in this section from fellows who aren't experienced with tuning and will never transition to being experienced pro tuners, but I also think that this section help make create some better than the average Joe's in regards to tuning.  Yea, there are some folks who will post that have no business playing with tuning, but for each of them there seems to be at least an equal share that enjoy learning this stuff once they get their feet a little wet.  I really think TTS dominates this section due to popularity, and it wouldn't be popular if the system didn't work.  Overall, I think that most here will agree that the system itself is a very good system. 

After the work that Robin and Joe did on testing the lock out concerns, I'm actually not at all concerned with the lock out issue.  I know these guys know what they are doing, so I trust the end results.  I can understand why Steve did what he did, but I can see where it will cause issues from time to time. The only thing I would have liked to have seen on TTS's end was more clear info to the consumer of exactly what he was doing software wise to the ecm.  There should be a clear warning, and a reference to call TTS if there is an issue with locking out the ECM.   If there is a warning, I haven't noticed it.  I've only played with the PV on one occasion, but I really liked that it gave a person the ability to pull the flashed tune and build a tune off of that.  I don't currently see TTS moving in that direction based on the lock out policy, but maybe if that becomes a popular demand from consumers they might.