Does TTS lock out HD's Digital Tech

[FLTRI]

Ron,
SC was more than forthright when the MT8 cals and subsequent software was released.
He said the changes to the MT8 cals required tuning from scratch as the "Tables" copy/paste would not translate an MT6-7 cal to an MT8 because of the low level changes.

Because the ECM is low level reformatted under the calibration no one can arbitrarily reprogram the ECM like we experienced back when TBW came out and HD encouraged dealers to "update" bikes when they came the shop for service/repair to enable "better torque management".
Well this promptly wrote over/wiped out the tuned calibration so the customer had to go through whatever was necessary to reinstall the tuned cal. What a clusterfu@k that created...for months.

Personally, every time I hear of a dealer who is "locked out" from reprogramming an ECM I get a warm feeling of security.
HTH,
Bob

[mayor]

Personally, every time I hear of a dealer who is "locked out" from reprogramming an ECM I get a warm feeling of security.

not me, I see this as a huge concern.  I can see this costing the bike owner for backcharged parts and labor, or screwing the next bike owner in the event of sale. I would not even consider the dual bike TTS unit, since there is no way to feel comfortable with one unit locking two ecm's.  Maybe I'm just a sky is falling kind of guy, but I see this locked out ecm practice being a real problem. 

[hrdtail78]

Take the good with the bad. Locked out ECM because TTS goes further into the ECM and allows you to collect data packages at different speeds for different things. Just like how most cars do. We are behind.  Do we need to collect CHT at the same speed and updates as we do O2?  No.  Guess I'm the positive thinker that would rather have better data collection and keep dealer out of my custom cals. 

[FLTRI]

Personally, every time I hear of a dealer who is "locked out" from reprogramming an ECM I get a warm feeling of security.

not me, I see this as a huge concern.  I can see this costing the bike owner for backcharged parts and labor, or screwing the next bike owner in the event of sale. I would not even consider the dual bike TTS unit, since there is no way to feel comfortable with one unit locking two ecm's.  Maybe I'm just a sky is falling kind of guy, but I see this locked out ecm practice being a real problem.

Mike,
I understand your position however I have yet to run across a dealer who "needed" to overwrite my work.
TTS does not keep the dealer from reading the ECM, it keeps the Dealer from reprogramming the ECM.
Hence the warm fuzzy feeling.
Unfortunately there are a couple known minor lockouts. 1 such is radio reprogramming.
A call to TTS by a tech with an internet connection, the TTS interface, and cables can have SC remotely take control of the ECM and do whatever is needed.
I personally know this.
IMO it doesn't get much better than that.
YMMV,
Bob

[hrdtail78]

Are you sure a locked TTS ECM locks out the radio? 

[FLTRI]

Are you sure a locked TTS ECM locks out the radio?

Nope. Heard it through the grapevine.
Bob

[hrdtail78]

Post up here on this site by HV that radio downloads are not a problem.

[ToBeFrank]

Take the good with the bad. Locked out ECM because TTS goes further into the ECM and allows you to collect data packages at different speeds for different things.

This doesn't require any changes in the ECM. I do this all the time with my own code.

[hrdtail78]

Take the good with the bad. Locked out ECM because TTS goes further into the ECM and allows you to collect data packages at different speeds for different things.

This doesn't require any changes in the ECM. I do this all the time with my own code.

Didn't realize you had any product that logged data off the ECM or program the ECM.  How many parts of the ECM does your code go into?

Bob,
You don't think anybody would sit down and plug a cal into a bike just to pull it back out with a different tuner and call it theirs, do you. There are probably some that think nobody would use a hacked mastertune.  The one I saw only worked with cals later than 157. So now the thing is locked and the customer never got a VCI locked to his bike or owns a VCI.  I have to wonder what problems that has all caused, and if that is one some of these guys count when they repeatedly state how many problems a locked ECM has caused.

[HV]

Don't quote me on  anything TTS .......I don't use them and have no plans of doing so in the future I believe I said something like I don't see why a tech would reflash the ECM when doing a radio or ABS Update.... if the TTS locks you out of non ECM things like accessing the ABS ECM that's a real PITA Mess 

[FLTRI]

Don't quote me on  anything TTS... "if the TTS locks you out of non ECM things like accessing the ABS ECM that's a real PITA Mess."

Haven't found access a problem just reprogramming the ECM.
Bob

[hrdtail78]

"I don't understand why the Tech even looked at the ECM ?   when you flash a Radio you check the RADIO Box in the reflash options in the Digital Tech...you don't check the ECM Box.....so it should not even matter whats done to the ECM... There are 3 options   ECM   Radio  and  ABS ( if applicable ) ... but WTF do I know...  "

Didnt mean to misquote you HV. This is what he said.

[HV]

Like I said WTF do I know...    I was ASSUMING the TTS did not mess with anything that would BLOCK accessing the Radio or ABS units... the ECM I can understand... If it does that's really another issue all together...

[HV]

A bigger issue is what happens with a used bike some poor sole buys and has no idea its been zapped with a TTS ? there should be a warning label provided to stick on the ECM... " Warning TTS Tuned for issues contact the Manufacture " and a PH# for Whomever is working on it ....so they can at least get info on what to do ..........Not all Techs either Dealer or Indy read HTT

[mayor]

A bigger issue is what happens with a used bike some poor sole buys and has no idea its been zapped with a TTS ? there should be a warning label provided to stick on the ECM... " Warning TTS Tuned for issues contact the Manufacture " and a PH# for Whomever is working on it ....so they can at least get info on what to do ..........Not all Techs either Dealer or Indy read HTT

yes, this is my concern with a two bike unit. In the end, some unsuspecting person who just bought a bike will find themselves with a huge problem eventually.

[strokerjlk]

A bigger issue is what happens with a used bike some poor sole buys and has no idea its been zapped with a TTS ? there should be a warning label provided to stick on the ECM... " Warning TTS Tuned for issues contact the Manufacture " and a PH# for Whomever is working on it ....so they can at least get info on what to do ..........Not all Techs either Dealer or Indy read HTT

yes, this is my concern with a two bike unit. In the end, some unsuspecting person who just bought a bike will find themselves with a huge problem eventually.

there are a guys also that traded bikes ,and handed over there tts.only to find no one had the MTE.

[Coyote]

I traded my 2010 before I knew what was going on and kept the TTS and had it converted to a two bike one for my 2011. I have no idea who has the 2010 bike now but it's locked. I'm not sure what to do on the 2012 bike I'm building (117). I have the PV and I can get the wide band option I guess. The pipes should have both sensor mounts on them. Or I get a TTS and lock the thing just so I can take it to Bob. 

[wurk_truk]

I will find out after a bit about key codes and ABS.  I have a direct link that can do both, and if THAT can access a bike with TTS, then I would assume a DT AND a TS could also.  If I were Mike, I would wonder, too.

Mike, there ARE some that pull a TTS base Cal and convert it to their own.  Remember this:  who in this industry has the original programmer from Delphi?  Sure is NOT dyno jet.  Anyways, there are like 100 tables in THAT programmer, and if Steve changes one of THOSE points, it is EASY for him to see if someone is doing exactly what you say you wish to do with a stock cal.

It HAS finally dawned upon me, from talking to you, that this can very well be a big problem.  A few years back, (2008 late), GM instituted a policy that says ANY changes to the ECM voids the powertrain portion of a warranty.  And...  the GM dealer computers can tell if the ECM has EVER been flashed, whether the stock tune is in the car, at the moment.

So, a tuned then de-tuned vette or diesel hits the lot...  how does a buyer really know if his warranty from GM is still intact?  WTF.  I never considered one would keep the VCI and do a two bike upgrade.....  I feel this IS an issue TTS needs to work on.

[mayor]

How was it not originally a Delphi based cal?  The cals are designed to work in a Delphi system, and there is no plausible explanation of how they came about other than cals were developed using an existing cal as the foundation. 

[ToBeFrank]

Didn't realize you had any product that logged data off the ECM or program the ECM.  How many parts of the ECM does your code go into?

All of it, but it's not a "product". It's my hobby code.

[ToBeFrank]

How was it not originally a Delphi based cal?  The cals are designed to work in a Delphi system, and there is no plausible explanation of how they came about other than cals were developed using an existing cal as the foundation.

You're correct. There are three areas of the ECM: bootloader, application (I think TTS calls this program or OS), and calibration. The calibration is nothing but data... tables, constants, etc. A calibration is completely useless without the application, and the application dictates what the calibration looks like... table sizes, locations, etc. The application was written by Delphi/Harley.

[strokerjlk]

I Have a DT but no TTS bikes that I know of to test ... 

my direct link wont get the ECM info post 1.57
the DT I have used wont get the ECM info either. post 1.57
we were not doing brake/radio work so I dont know about that. the way I understand it you can do the abs/radio without DT. but if you want to use DT to do it it wont work.
I dont do brakes or radios so I dont really care on my end.
what I dont like is, maintaining every ones MTE.

[ToBeFrank]

my direct link wont get the ECM info post 1.57
the DT I have used wont get the ECM info either. post 1.57

Not saying you're wrong, just musing...

This is interesting because getting that information doesn't require unlocking (security-wise, not TTS unlock) the ECM. It's a simple command to get that info from the EEPROM. I wouldn't have thought the TTS lock would break this.

[HV]

You can bleed a ABS manually ...no other way to power bleed the ABS Modulator that I know of aside from a DT ...you can load a new Radio update with a CD ..but if you have a new uncalibrated one I'm not sure if that would work ... The ability to use a DT for an Indy is irrelevant ...for a dealer to not be able to access the ECM with it would make them assume the ECM is toast ..as I said not many know anything about a TTS or have even heard of one

[wurk_truk]

When they ride in all happy and the bike is sounding good.  They lost their fob,  or want a brake change and the person running the DT will say the ECM is bad is so much BS.  THAT is just dumb.

But....  I DO agree TTS should handle this differently.