Closed throttle spark timing

[07heri]

I said how arrogant I am...  I said that I was wrong here.

Here is a playing of how long the timing stays on main tables while warming up.

It ALWAYS stays on main tables.  Like you say.

So...  bite me.  HAHAH!!!

I would guess that (those that know where I got this tuning tidbitfrom) is NO GOOD.

It stays on main tables during whole warm up.

https://www.box.com/s/87b4pneky9wb2ofttlhu

So... best I can say id say my 'matching' the tables at least got it out of 25* advance.  Lookiong at the MAP sensor at 20* advance at idle REALLY helps to smooth the bike out.

Set timing in low tables to 18-22 for a nicer starting bike.

Now...  let's see where I CAN find CTS in action.

And... who else is REALLY trying experiments today for YOU?

The purpose of starting this thread was to try to dig down and find out what the heck this table does.  I'm seeing no affect on a cable bike.  Unless, it somehow ties into another table that is hidden.  Then we'll never know what it does unless someone "in the know" is willing to divulge.  I'm assuming the main table interpolates so just playing with the throttle wouldn't show a cell to cell progression when watching timing on the PV monitor.  All I'm saying is I see no affect (that can be seen on the PV monitor) on a cable operated bike at idle.  If it indeed comes into play at idle I should be clearly seeing it, and I don't.

Perhaps, it's only a player with certain cals on certain models.  I surely wouldn't know, and again, those "in the know" would need to step in and advise.  Anyway, the point is to learn.  I'm just an old coot with too much time on his hands who likes to tinker, learn and drink cold beer.  But, if I can tinker, learn, drink cold beer AND make the bike run sweeter I'll take the time to at least try to figure it out.

Either way, I'm all ears to what folks can come up with.     

[wurk_truk]

https://www.box.com/s/wudxxbxjrowpd4cx6bb7

i COULD not SEE WHERE IT COMES INTO PLAY ... ON MY dbw BIE.... AT ALL.

i RAN THE BIKE WAY WARM, COLD AND IN BETWEEN.  Oops

I think from now on, I will just match it up to main tables and forget it.  I ran the bike up and down, brake on and brake off, on the dyno.  In decel?  it shows 25* like my main spark.

For me?  I was wrong all around but learned some valuable info.

[wurk_truk]

Hrdtail78 was right here.  The cold start issues was no more than my dialing in a better degree of advance at the lowest points on the chart.

[Tsani]

I think one thing to keep in mind is that your throttle s never truely closed and this going to vary from bike to bike. When you ignition on, the IAC comes into play. Could this be why you don;t see an effect? At what percentage of throttle does the ECM consider closed where this table would be used? I just don't really see it being a player unless may it's purpose is used during say sudden roll off to the "closed throttle" position. Seems that way to me given that is Temperature and RPM dependant. Note that in the item tuning comments it says :"Closed Throttle Spark Table, This table replaces the Main Spark and Spark Temperature Correction tables when the throttle is closed.", I read this as transitioning from a open throttle condition to a closed throttle condition. Just my take on it. 

[wurk_truk]

OK, but a DBW bike is NEVER closed 100%.  I 'think' I saw action when the bike was semi stock with a 50mm TB.  But Steve says there will be some kind of 'tipping' point for what % it is that the ECM thinks it is closed.  My thought is, that % should have been LESS than with a 58 than with a 50 to raise the RPM to 1200 fast idle.

Live and learn and kudos to Heri for asking the question.

Someone needs to go check a cable bike.  Only cable bike in shop is a carb bike.

[Tsani]

Well now I need to corect myself. Was just read this in the guide:
3.3.2. Idle Spark
During the closed-throttle idle and warmup phase the timming is controlled by the Closed Throttle Spark tabel, Figure 3-8. This table is typically set to a value of 20 to 25 degrees and is used if the TPS is less than 1 percent."

But note that it says if the TPS s less than 1 percent.
Check what the TPS is recorded at while idling.
I just checked my most recent data recording and the timing is 22*, what is spec in my CTS table. But the minute it goes beyond 1%, it changes.

[wurk_truk]

lowest my TPS goes is 4.5%

[rbabos]

lowest my TPS goes is 4.5%

Then theirs your problem. It never hits the closed table. Cable definately does. Am I correct in assuming TBW has no iac? Therefor the blade control does the job of the iac and is open more dragging the tps with it past a typical cable bike of 0%
Ron

[rbabos]

Used 25 in CTS table and 20 in main table.  Started bike...idles at 20 from main table.  Now really confused.

Does your tps show 0 at idle. If not that explains this.
Ron

[wurk_truk]

lowest my TPS goes is 4.5%

Then theirs your problem. It never hits the closed table. Cable definately does. Am I correct in assuming TBW has no iac? Therefor the blade control does the job of the iac and is open more dragging the tps with it past a typical cable bike of 0%
Ron

Yes, DBW has NO IAC.  IAC functions are controlled by the stepper motor that turns the throttle blade.  Still uses steps and crank to run and all of that, but it controls the blade itself... to allow more or less air.

So, maybe we could get somebody to try my tests on a cable bike.  These were all done simply sitting and idling.  I would prefer data logs from TTS.

[rbabos]

lowest my TPS goes is 4.5%

Then theirs your problem. It never hits the closed table. Cable definately does. Am I correct in assuming TBW has no iac? Therefor the blade control does the job of the iac and is open more dragging the tps with it past a typical cable bike of 0%
Ron

Yes, DBW has NO IAC.  IAC functions are controlled by the stepper motor that turns the throttle blade.  Still uses steps and crank to run and all of that, but it controls the blade itself... to allow more or less air.

So, maybe we could get somebody to try my tests on a cable bike.  These were all done simply sitting and idling.  I would prefer data logs from TTS.

Lot of good info came out of this thread. One being the CTS isn't compatible with DBW obviously and you proved that without a doubt.  At one time I did what you did on my softail and found the table does what it says. Unfortunately I did house cleaning on my files once my new toy came along and can't produce a log. TPS position of 0 is the holy grail for this table to work from my experience. Weather sucks around here and haven't even been out on the rod for the first autoruns yet.
Ron

[Tsani]

I can show a number of data logs from an 05 softail that show it. Idle with a TPS of zero. The moment it goes above the 1% threshold, things change. Heck, I set my cables up using the data log just to be sure they were not the cause of a issue I was noticing.

[joe_lyons]

I will try the CTS for FBW tomorow on my way to work

[joe_lyons]

Never seen the CTS ever come into play.  Hmm.  Then what's the point of it for fbw? 

[rbabos]

Never seen the CTS ever come into play.  Hmm.  Then what's the point of it for fbw?

To create debate on HTT. Mission accomplished.
Ron

[wurk_truk]

Hrdtail78 thinks that MAYBE it comes into play during a long decel.  On the Dyne, I could get a bit of decel, How about you, Joe?

Maybe, it is for cable bikes only?

[rbabos]

Hrdtail78 thinks that MAYBE it comes into play during a long decel.  On the Dyne, I could get a bit of decel, How about you, Joe?

Maybe, it is for cable bikes only?

Can't see it. It's tps based and the tps is past the 1% point on DBW.
Ron

[wurk_truk]

Hrdtail78 thinks that MAYBE it comes into play during a long decel.  On the Dyne, I could get a bit of decel, How about you, Joe?

Maybe, it is for cable bikes only?

Can't see it. It's tps based and the tps is past the 1% point on DBW.
Ron

TGS isn't though.  Who is to say that TGS isn't being used in this table?  But...  I didn't see that.

[joe_lyons]

Hrdtail78 thinks that MAYBE it comes into play during a long decel.  On the Dyne, I could get a bit of decel, How about you, Joe?

Maybe, it is for cable bikes only?

I redlined in 4th and let it come down to 2000 rpm and all I seen was the same # as whats in the 15kpa column only.

[burgies08ultra]

what bike??

[joe_lyons]

An 09 dyna that I have converted to fbw.  Stock motor so far with pipes and ac

[rbabos]

Hrdtail78 thinks that MAYBE it comes into play during a long decel.  On the Dyne, I could get a bit of decel, How about you, Joe?

Maybe, it is for cable bikes only?

I redlined in 4th and let it come down to 2000 rpm and all I seen was the same # as whats in the 15kpa column only.

Figured that. CTS or 15kpa both will work for decel popping if needed. In our cases (cable) the only real gain with CTS  is it will lock in a solid timing for idle. Cold starts and warmup seem to be the least stable area of running and most don't tune much there.  If the idle area is tuned well doubt there would be much timing fluctuation in the main table anyway during warmup. Block tuning the timing area at idle might be a solution but shouldn't be needed. Reducing NOX is way down the list for importance for us, so in the big picture the CTS table isn't really needed. I'd feel better if it wasn't there , then have one that don't work as in the DBW Looks like a carried over table from the cable cals.
Ron

[joe_lyons]

Hrdtail78 thinks that MAYBE it comes into play during a long decel.  On the Dyne, I could get a bit of decel, How about you, Joe?

Maybe, it is for cable bikes only?

Can't see it. It's tps based and the tps is past the 1% point on DBW.
Ron

TGS isn't though.  Who is to say that TGS isn't being used in this table?  But...  I didn't see that.

I would think that if this table was valid that it would use the tgs % instead of butterfly position too but so far I see no point of it for fbw.  For sure use on cable.

[rbabos]

Hrdtail78 thinks that MAYBE it comes into play during a long decel.  On the Dyne, I could get a bit of decel, How about you, Joe?

Maybe, it is for cable bikes only?

Can't see it. It's tps based and the tps is past the 1% point on DBW.
Ron

TGS isn't though.  Who is to say that TGS isn't being used in this table?  But...  I didn't see that.

I would think that if this table was valid that it would use the tgs % instead of butterfly position too but so far I see no point of it for fbw.  For sure use on cable.

Take a look at the manual. 3.3.3. Level 44 idle spark control gain. This seems to be used in DBW .Looks like the warmup spark table to me.
Ron

[strokerjlk]

so in the big picture the CTS table isn't really needed. I'd feel better if it wasn't there , then have one that don't work as in the DBW  Looks like a carried over table from the cable cals.

If you have ever tuned a sepst where the base cals CTS was not where you wanted it? You would welcome the CTS table .
Closed throttle on FBW is anywhere from 2-8% depending on build combo and base cals.
Getting it where it is optimal is the key.
You can get a motor that has the front cam retarded 1 tooth, to idle good  . If you work long and hard enough.
125 ccp front 200 ccp rear.
Guys check and double check the cams , when you install .
I have had 2 in 3 weeks . One was easy to troubleshoot the other got tuned before I realized what was going on . It wasn't until wot tuning that it hit me .   my bad