Closed throttle spark timing

[hrdtail78]

On DBW bikes.  This table uses TGS %.   When TGS reads 0%.  The CTS table is active. There is more to it, but taking out all of that.  This is how it works.  With TTS at least.

[rbabos]

On DBW bikes.  This table uses TGS %.   When TGS reads 0%.  The CTS table is active. There is more to it, but taking out all of that.  This is how it works.  With TTS at least.

Well apparently it don't follow the rules then.
Ron

[wurk_truk]

Why isn't that the rules , Ron?  We figure the"rules"to be this...  the higher advanced table wins.  If the cts would have been 25 and main tables 18, I would have seen it Ron on cts.

Tps on a cable bike equals tgs on adbw bike.

Good work Jason

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2

[hrdtail78]

https://www.box.com/s/f6h6kzwkazbnktnfhryq
https://www.box.com/s/36xjenbpy9u9szf0rvdo

Graph these tables:
MAP
TGS
TPS
front spark
RPM

You will see it plan as day.  I let it idle at 0% TGS.  Front spark 25.  I held throttle off of 0% TGS.  Goes to 21. I did this 3 times. Then you can see me shifting up to 6th.  WOT pull and decel.  During decel I am 0% TGS and front spark is 25.  All of the decel is set to 21.  I then held TGS off of 0% one more time.

Since I set everything in the cal in the main spark table (that matters) to 21, and the CTS table to 25.  You can see it.  When TGS is 0%.  The timing is 25 which is the CTS table.  When TGS is anything over 0%.  It's on the main table. 

[rbabos]

Why isn't that the rules , Ron?  We figure the"rules"to be this...  the higher advanced table wins.  If the cts would have been 25 and main tables 18, I would have seen it Ron on cts.

Tps on a cable bike equals tgs on adbw bike.

Good work Jason

Neither you or Joe actually saw it work. Understand the tgs part where the grip dictates position. Still a factor of 0 at idle , yet in Joes case it went to decel timing instead. Was the throttle actually at 0 or some other rpm thing come into play to bypass the cts sometimes.
Jason. One hell of an interesting calibration you have there.
Ron

[hrdtail78]

That is an unfinished Pro Charger cal.  That's what is on the dyno.  08 touring bike with DBW.  But the data is still data, and this is how it works in TTS 205 cals.  Different levels of cals are different.

[joe_lyons]

Maybe the difference between 205 and 044/009 cal?

[ultraswede]

In this thread some answers can be found.
http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,14591.msg593735.html#msg593735


Specially note "NOT all calibrations are capable of using the closed Throttle Spark tables."

Steve cole,
Closed throttle timing is used when the throttle is closed. There are some over-rides that will come into play as well but it is the main control point. Cranking spark is controlled in the ECM as is the transition from crank to run spark. Once above those items, it goes to the Closed Throttle table IF the throttle is closed or goes to the main tables for each cylinder. The TTS base calibration has the setting we feel are best for any combination but that does not mean that anyone else's calibration (IE: SESPT, PV ect) work the same way. NOT all calibrations are capable of using the closed Throttle Spark tables.

edit, Note that some ECUs makes a difference on throttle (grip) position VS throttle BLADE position.
Not sure how the HD ECU does it, but GM trucks does difrentiate these two.
Since more than the pedal position will influence the throttle BLADE position. (cruise control for example)

[rbabos]

I guess it boils down to if you have a cal that will use the CTS make use of it and if not don't worry about it. How soon we forget previous posts on the same topic. Thanks for posting it.
Ron

[hrdtail78]

https://www.box.com/s/rl9v1psf1mzyzdvyqnhg
https://www.box.com/s/ryemsif6tohqbdlca3zx

Same test.  009 level cal.

[rbabos]

https://www.box.com/s/rl9v1psf1mzyzdvyqnhg
https://www.box.com/s/ryemsif6tohqbdlca3zx

Same test.  009 level cal.

My 176 cal behaved just like that. Obviously using the tps rather than tgs.
Ron

[burgies08ultra]

is that your vtuning map???
seems like a lot of timing could b added in upper rpm???

https://www.box.com/s/rl9v1psf1mzyzdvyqnhg
https://www.box.com/s/ryemsif6tohqbdlca3zx

Same test.  009 level cal.

[hrdtail78]

is that your vtuning map???
seems like a lot of timing could b added in upper rpm???

https://www.box.com/s/rl9v1psf1mzyzdvyqnhg
https://www.box.com/s/ryemsif6tohqbdlca3zx

Same test.  009 level cal.

I did one vtune.  Bike was warm.  Changed timing and recorded data.  More timing, really?  What timing do you suggest with the CC's of the head, HG installed and cam?

[burgies08ultra]

i cant make suggestions, i just thought maybe u were not done with the map with all
the closed throttle area, and no knock control, and no accell fuel...??

[hrdtail78]

No, just started.  Wasn't done.  This starting cal was for a 255 cam.  Accel fuel?

[07heri]

Used 25 in CTS table and 20 in main table.  Started bike...idles at 20 from main table.  Now really confused.

Does your tps show 0 at idle. If not that explains this.
Ron

0% at key on
0% at idle running
0% after blipping the throttle a few times

[07heri]

lowest my TPS goes is 4.5%

Then theirs your problem. It never hits the closed table. Cable definately does. Am I correct in assuming TBW has no iac? Therefor the blade control does the job of the iac and is open more dragging the tps with it past a typical cable bike of 0%
Ron

Ron, it isn't hitting closed table on a cable bike based on just looking at the PV screen monitoring rpm and timing.  I've been screwing with it all weekend.  This is a 176 cal, for what it's worth.  I will datalog it later today or tomorrow.  I should be able to see where and if it comes into play.... maybe.  Like has been quoted, it's obviously only a player with certain cals.  Who knows, other cals it may be doing something in the background with tables that are hidden, and never seen.  If I don't see it hitting 25* anywhere I'll just do as Truk says...set it the same as the main table, forget about it, and ice down some beer.  Hopefully, by the time this thread dies off there will be some definite proven answers that will help the HTT readers.  Either way thanks to everyone for chiming in with a perspective.  Gotta love free education.....

[rbabos]

lowest my TPS goes is 4.5%

Then theirs your problem. It never hits the closed table. Cable definately does. Am I correct in assuming TBW has no iac? Therefor the blade control does the job of the iac and is open more dragging the tps with it past a typical cable bike of 0%
Ron

Ron, it isn't hitting closed table on a cable bike based on just looking at the PV screen monitoring rpm and timing.  I've been screwing with it all weekend.  This is a 176 cal, for what it's worth.  I will datalog it later today or tomorrow.  I should be able to see where and if it comes into play.... maybe.  Like has been quoted, it's obviously only a player with certain cals.  Who knows, other cals it may be doing something in the background with tables that are hidden, and never seen.  If I don't see it hitting 25* anywhere I'll just do as Truk says...set it the same as the main table, forget about it, and ice down some beer.  Hopefully, by the time this thread dies off there will be some definite proven answers that will help the HTT readers.  Either way thanks to everyone for chiming in with a perspective.  Gotta love free education.....

Don't know all the reasons why it won't hit it unless other factors come into play like the tps voltage and iac points. Steve mentioned to me once if this is out of wack the ecm won't see it to be at idle. Don't know if theres a connection or not here. 176 cal is what I used as well.
Ron