Closed throttle spark timing

[07heri]

I have read everything I can find on this table and there's alot of conflicting information.  I'm hoping I can get a straight answer here. 

Some maps have this table canned at 25* with the main timing table at many different degrees.  Why the difference? How does, say 5 or 6 degrees difference affect rideability and the engine performance?  Is this difference correct?

When, exactly does each table come into play and the big question...why?

Some say it controls idle ALL the time....some say the main table controls idle.  Real answer?

Some say the CS table should match the main table, some say it should be lower.  Real answer?

Does it control timing based on all temps or just up to the highest temp on the table?

With all the conflicting posts scattered across the forums I would like to see one place that has the "no guessing" answer to exactly the what it does, when it does it, and why it even exists.  This, in my opinion, is the best forum for tuning advice so this is where the answer should be.

[rbabos]

I have read everything I can find on this table and there's alot of conflicting information.  I'm hoping I can get a straight answer here. 

Some maps have this table canned at 25* with the main timing table at many different degrees.  Why the difference? How does, say 5 or 6 degrees difference affect rideability and the engine performance?  Is this difference correct?

When, exactly does each table come into play and the big question...why?

Some say it controls idle ALL the time....some say the main table controls idle.  Real answer?

Some say the CS table should match the main table, some say it should be lower.  Real answer?

Does it control timing based on all temps or just up to the highest temp on the table?

With all the conflicting posts scattered across the forums I would like to see one place that has the "no guessing" answer to exactly the what it does, when it does it, and why it even exists.  This, in my opinion, is the best forum for tuning advice so this is where the answer should be.

This table works any time the throttle is in a closed postion, idle and higher. I just set mine to the same as the main spark tables. Say for example you have nasty decel popping if you fully close the throttle from 3-4k. This table can be used to up the timing to cure that.  Short of full throttle closing the decel timing will be drawn from the main table in decels. Running the closed spark table lower than main would make no sense to me.
Ron

[wurk_truk]

IMHO ONLY, probably shouldn't read this, as sure as the sun shines, I will be told I am a dumbass, but here it is anyways.....

Closed throttle spark is for when the throttle is closed.  It is closed at idle and it is closed at decel.

The basic main thing, in beginning a tune, is to match closed throttle spark with the main spark tables for a row or two.... around where the bike idles at.  One has to MATCH the main spark to cover this.  I usually change most of the temps to be all of the same.  The -16 thru 48c.  Remember this is intake air, so that is up to 118 F.  Ambient.  I do this on both the 1000 rpm scale and also the 1250 scale... make em match

Here is why.  If the spark does NOT match and the bike is dead nuts cold, when it starts, the bike revs to say 1200 rpm to warm up, right?  That rev up is NOT closed throttle, on a DBW bike...it IS being commanded to alter the RPM, just like slightly turning the throttle, see?  Also the same for a cable bike using the IAC crank steps.  Throttle blade IS slightly open, or the ECM considers it to be so.

WHat happens is, if the two sparks do not match, then the bike CAN surge while warming up.    Vrooom, almost die, vroom... etc.  This action is mostly because the advance changes when the bike revs in and out of closed spark to the main spark tables.

If the tables are MATCHED, and I like to use almost all the time 20*, then... no matter where the engine is, during warm up, the bike will NOT hunt back and forth in and out of closed spark.

THIS is the WHY, I, me, recommend setting the main AND the closed spark at the SAME amount of advance.

The other things folks talk about is absolutely correct, especially decel stuff, but wherever it is where the bike sits and idles at... set both spark tables the same, and THAT will make for a better starting bike is all.

In OTHER RPM ranges, the closed throttle spark tables CAN be manipulated to whatever is needed for OTHER running issue.   RPM and closed throttle will be different than at idle, right?  There, more retard than the stock timing tables CAN help suck the flame front BACK into the cylinder and things like that can be 'last resort' stuff to help with popping, etc.  Especially high RPM popping, where enleanment, etc are too short in duration.  I HAVE played with a little more or less timing at the 4000 rpm scale to play with popping.  Those don't necessarily HAVE to match.  It is closed throttle after all.

There can surely be times the closed spark could be less than the main tables, but I recommend do NOT do that at idle RPM

[wurk_truk]

He is talking closed throttle spark and NOT temp correction tables, I am assuming.  There is NO KPA, etc in closed spark tables.

I also MAY agree with things on the hotter side of things, Jason... like the 32 and 48 tables.  But 0 and 16, it's how I like to see things, for now.

16c= 60F and 0c=32f.  The cooler side of things when considering the bike starting up dead cold. I feel I am correct at the colder setting, because that sure as day made my 120r start WAY nicer.

[rbabos]

I'm talking close throttle spark. I disagree and don't set the closed throttle spark and main spark table the same.  Do you raise your main spark table or lower your CTS table?  I like 25 for idle. Crack throttle to start moving. You introduced load. I like less than 25 for this. 

Timing for starting?  Other side of the MAP.  Pun intended.

Starting is only for a split second from the high kpa range, then the closed table takes over at idle. I feel both should match so the transition off of CTS to main table is smoother without rpm variances from one table being different then the other. How I see it, or actually heard it.
Ron

[07heri]

I'm talking close throttle spark. I disagree and don't set the closed throttle spark and main spark table the same.  Do you raise your main spark table or lower your CTS table?  I like 25 for idle. Crack throttle to start moving. You introduced load. I like less than 25 for this. 

Timing for starting?  Other side of the MAP.  Pun intended.

Starting is only for a split second from the high kpa range, then the closed table takes over at idle. I feel both should match so the transition off of CTS to main table is smoother without rpm variances from one table being different then the other. How I see it, or actually heard it.
Ron

The maps I looked at it TTS have 25* CTS table and a 5, 6,7* difference in the main tables. 

[07heri]

"Closed Throttle Spark Table

This table replaces the Main Spark and Spark Temperature Correction tables when the throttle is closed."

Thats from Master Tune.  Under Edit,  Veiw and edit Iten tuning comments. 

Spark is load based, KPA.  You can be in that cell other times besides closed throttle.  Example.  When you first crack throttle.  If you start slowly from a dead stop.  The rpm's will drop below idle and down into the 750 RPM, 40-50 KPA cells.  Thats why its a good idea to set idle down to 800ish and collect data in that row.

In the TTS Tuning Manual it says the table is used at idle and warmup or when the throttle is less than 1%.  So why not just set up the main table 25* in the idle map/rpm cell and lower it in the cells surrounding it?  I guess what confuses me is having the extra step involved (bouncing between 2 tables).  If the 1% throttle description is accurate aren't we off the CTS table and into the main table almost instantly?

[07heri]

I'm talking close throttle spark. I disagree and don't set the closed throttle spark and main spark table the same.  Do you raise your main spark table or lower your CTS table?  I like 25 for idle. Crack throttle to start moving. You introduced load. I like less than 25 for this. 

Timing for starting?  Other side of the MAP.  Pun intended.

Can you give us a description of a bike you tuned and why you set each table up the way you did?  Why do you like 25* at idle?  When you use 25* what are you looking for in a response from the bike?  Then when you lower the timing in the main table where are you lowering it?  Again, what response from the engine are you looking for?  I'm thinking there's more to this CTS table than I'm finding in my reading and it frustrates the heck out of me.

[wurk_truk]

Hrdtail78 gives me pause.  Maybe I am incorrect in my assumptions.

So this week end, I will load a 205 cal into my bike.  With 25 main table and 18 closed spark table.  Now, If I am right, the spark will jump back and forth between 18 and 25* while warming up from dead cold.  If I am wrong, it will stay one or the other.

Then, if it DOES jump, I will do a datamaster on the two blended.  See what happens.

This is the WHY I have a dyno.  Even tho this test will not need such.

Gimme until saturday and we shall know one way or another.  And...  I CAN be surely easily wrong and that's cool.  Also cool, if I have this teenie part of things down.

This IS the good stuff for me.  Believe me!

I will post up the datamaster runs, and the portions of the cal that went with the runs.

[rbabos]

Hrdtail78 gives me pause.  Maybe I am incorrect in my assumptions.

So this week end, I will load a 205 cal into my bike.  With 25 main table and 18 closed spark table.  Now, If I am right, the spark will jump back and forth between 18 and 25* while warming up from dead cold.  If I am wrong, it will stay one or the other.

Then, if it DOES jump, I will do a datamaster on the two blended.  See what happens.

This is the WHY I have a dyno.  Even tho this test will not need such.

Gimme until saturday and we shall know one way or another.  And...  I CAN be surely easily wrong and that's cool.  Also cool, if I have this teenie part of things down.

This IS the good stuff for me.  Believe me!

I will post up the datamaster runs, and the portions of the cal that went with the runs.

It won't jump between main and CTS. Set 3 distinct different values in both CTS and idle main area and monitor it on a cold start. It will follow the temp timing settings within the CTS table. That's what I've witnessed in datamaster. The instant you move the throttle timing comes from the main table, or what the 1150 1200 rpm timing is.  I've found when setting idle timing this CTS is the table to work with. How you choose the transition from closed to main is somewhat weird. Say if your bike idles at 40kap. When does the bike actually use the value in the 40kpa main table at those rpms? Seems to be more of an operational transition zone just off of idle since actual idle timing comes from the CTS table. Just letting the clutch out timing is pulled from higher than 40kpa and normal launches pull timing from higher rpm timing areas for that given kpa. Seems to me whatever timing shown at idle in the main table should be more of a blending area for just off idle timng transitons only that blend in with the surounding cells.
Then again, maybe too much coffee this morning.
Ron

[07heri]

Hrdtail78 gives me pause.  Maybe I am incorrect in my assumptions.

So this week end, I will load a 205 cal into my bike.  With 25 main table and 18 closed spark table.  Now, If I am right, the spark will jump back and forth between 18 and 25* while warming up from dead cold.  If I am wrong, it will stay one or the other.

Then, if it DOES jump, I will do a datamaster on the two blended.  See what happens.

This is the WHY I have a dyno.  Even tho this test will not need such.

Gimme until saturday and we shall know one way or another.  And...  I CAN be surely easily wrong and that's cool.  Also cool, if I have this teenie part of things down.

This IS the good stuff for me.  Believe me!

I will post up the datamaster runs, and the portions of the cal that went with the runs.

It won't jump between main and CTS. Set 3 distinct different values in both CTS and idle main area and monitor it on a cold start. It will follow the temp timing settings within the CTS table. That's what I've witnessed in datamaster. The instant you move the throttle timing comes from the main table, or what the 1150 1200 rpm timing is.  I've found when setting idle timing this CTS is the table to work with. How you choose the transition from closed to main is somewhat weird. Say if your bike idles at 40kap. When does the bike actually use the value in the 40kpa main table at those rpms? Seems to be more of an operational transition zone just off of idle since actual idle timing comes from the CTS table. Just letting the clutch out timing is pulled from higher than 40kpa and normal launches pull timing from higher rpm timing areas for that given kpa. Seems to me whatever timing shown at idle in the main table should be more of a blending area for just off idle timng transitons only that blend in with the surounding cells.
Then again, maybe too much coffee this morning.
Ron

WHY two tables?  If someone can be very specific as to why we need two tables then the answers to when and why to use them should become a little clearer. 

[rbabos]

Hrdtail78 gives me pause.  Maybe I am incorrect in my assumptions.

So this week end, I will load a 205 cal into my bike.  With 25 main table and 18 closed spark table.  Now, If I am right, the spark will jump back and forth between 18 and 25* while warming up from dead cold.  If I am wrong, it will stay one or the other.

Then, if it DOES jump, I will do a datamaster on the two blended.  See what happens.

This is the WHY I have a dyno.  Even tho this test will not need such.

Gimme until saturday and we shall know one way or another.  And...  I CAN be surely easily wrong and that's cool.  Also cool, if I have this teenie part of things down.

This IS the good stuff for me.  Believe me!

I will post up the datamaster runs, and the portions of the cal that went with the runs.

It won't jump between main and CTS. Set 3 distinct different values in both CTS and idle main area and monitor it on a cold start. It will follow the temp timing settings within the CTS table. That's what I've witnessed in datamaster. The instant you move the throttle timing comes from the main table, or what the 1150 1200 rpm timing is.  I've found when setting idle timing this CTS is the table to work with. How you choose the transition from closed to main is somewhat weird. Say if your bike idles at 40kap. When does the bike actually use the value in the 40kpa main table at those rpms? Seems to be more of an operational transition zone just off of idle since actual idle timing comes from the CTS table. Just letting the clutch out timing is pulled from higher than 40kpa and normal launches pull timing from higher rpm timing areas for that given kpa. Seems to me whatever timing shown at idle in the main table should be more of a blending area for just off idle timng transitons only that blend in with the surounding cells.
Then again, maybe too much coffee this morning.
Ron

WHY two tables?  If someone can be very specific as to why we need two tables then the answers to when and why to use them should become a little clearer.

Good question. All I can see is since it's based on temp, it must be basically a table to control timing during warmup and set timing for closed throttle. In my 100c temp settings the timing matches one of my main tables in the idle kpa area. Maybe the main table with small kpa fluctuations isn't stable enough on closed throttle for a fixed timing and it hunts. Not a good situation if you want a nice stable idle rpm. My opinion only and I'm wrong a lot.  :wink:I also agree, knowing what exactly it does makes it easier to deal with, should you want to for some reason.
Ron

[wurk_truk]

I have been doing some checking.  I was wrong on some stuff.  The first of which is at what temps that closed spark table is active.  It IS engine temp.  So... once the engine is up to temp, the closed spark table only works with the setting at 48C.

Talking to the guy we can't name.  He says the REAL reason for the closed spark table is to control NOx emmisions.  Added spark in decel will reduce NOx.

I was also told that different folks use different parts of the table for various things.  Like I have stated, I like using that table for warm up smoothness, others use th 4k and 2k portions to control pop, etc.  This particular table is included for NO specific reason... so says one of the manufacturers.

I do NOT know if this even matters if a bike has cable throttle.  WIth a DBW, it WILL depend on how big the throttle body is.  Based upon each individual calibration, there is a tipping point that determines whether the ECM gets a bike out of closed spark or not.  Lets say that 3% throttle in a cal is the tipping point.  WIth a smaller TB, like a 50, the blade will open further than that, during warm up, and the bike will jump to main tables.  WIth a 66 Throttle hog, it may only open 2%, and in that case, it will always remain in closed spark.

I will play with this on my 58mm TB bike.

I would also like for someone to do the same tests, I will do tomorrow, on a cable bike.

Ron, it DOES move on my DBW bike, saying it will NEVER do that is not investigating things enough to see what differences one can see with different systems.

[rbabos]

I don't have all the different systems to play with. I'll leave that up to you.
Ron

[07heri]

I have been doing some checking.  I was wrong on some stuff.  The first of which is at what temps that closed spark table is active.  It IS engine temp.  So... once the engine is up to temp, the closed spark table only works with the setting at 48C.

Talking to the guy we can't name.  He says the REAL reason for the closed spark table is to control NOx emmisions.  Added spark in decel will reduce NOx.

I was also told that different folks use different parts of the table for various things.  Like I have stated, I like using that table for warm up smoothness, others use th 4k and 2k portions to control pop, etc.  This particular table is included for NO specific reason... so says one of the manufacturers.

I do NOT know if this even matters if a bike has cable throttle.  WIth a DBW, it WILL depend on how big the throttle body is.  Based upon each individual calibration, there is a tipping point that determines whether the ECM gets a bike out of closed spark or not.  Lets say that 3% throttle in a cal is the tipping point.  WIth a smaller TB, like a 50, the blade will open further than that, during warm up, and the bike will jump to main tables.  WIth a 66 Throttle hog, it may only open 2%, and in that case, it will always remain in closed spark.

I will play with this on my 58mm TB bike.

I would also like for someone to do the same tests, I will do tomorrow, on a cable bike.

Ron, it DOES move on my DBW bike, saying it will NEVER do that is not investigating things enough to see what differences one can see with different systems.

This is exactly why I started this thread.  If it's a useless table someone just say it.  It's not like it's a mortal sin.  My biggest doubt, or question, was why the the need for 2 tables.  Like rbabos mimicked me, the only twist is the temps on the table.  If the table does in fact control idle at a sitting still situation...great...lets nail that part of it down.  If, in fact, it does have another REAL purpose...great...lets nail that down.  If it turns out to a be a gee wiz, epa, do nothing table...great....lets nail that down.  I just got so frustrated trying to get an answer, via reading and google searches, I figured I would come here and open this up.  I don't care much for smoke and mirrors.  If it has a definite reason and purpose...great...let's all find it.

[07heri]

I have been doing some checking.  I was wrong on some stuff.  The first of which is at what temps that closed spark table is active.  It IS engine temp.  So... once the engine is up to temp, the closed spark table only works with the setting at 48C.

So, above 147*F this table does nothing?  118*F is no where near warmed up on my bike.  What are you really trying to say?  Above 48C it does nothing?  What does it do below 48C?

[joe_lyons]

Think of the 48° as being 48°+ and so it continues on past 48 with the same values.  I use it as a decel pop fix.  I will have to try the whole idle thing also to see what it does.

[rbabos]

48* would be the last temp that could be edited but the table remains in play above that with the last set timing value. The table is used every time the throttle is at idle. I tend to agree the table is more EPA related. A cold rich running engine during warmup needs different timing to produce less smog. Same with hot idle. Easyest to do with a seperate table rather than the main. I suspect the table in our cals is not used for it's intended purpose for smog reduction during warmup or hot idle. Timing during warmup can be set to give the smoothest running and decel pop reduction if needed as well as normal hot timing.
Ron

[wurk_truk]

Heri? 

Joe said it.  That table is 48c AND everything ABOVE 48C works from that small column.  The lesser columns are simply for warm up and control EPA NOx emissions.

Except...  like anything, there WILL be instances, with different bikes, cals, etc.  That this table CAN be used to help out a tune.  Like using this table (at the 48C column) to help pop.  I use the earlier columns to help smooth idle.  On SOME bikes.

You want a simple answer.  But with anything to do with this crap.  There is NO one size fits all answer.  On your cable bike? I trust Ron's report. Worry about the 48C column.  On a DBW, the other columns may come into play.

It was a 'tool' thrown in for the heck of it... if emissions come into our lives at a later date.  It is also a tool thrown in for all of us to play with, and find uses for, and....  fodder to argue about.

[rbabos]

Heri? 

Joe said it.  That table is 48c AND everything ABOVE 48C works from that small column.  The lesser columns are simply for warm up and control EPA NOx emissions.

Except...  like anything, there WILL be instances, with different bikes, cals, etc.  That this table CAN be used to help out a tune.  Like using this table (at the 48C column) to help pop.  I use the earlier columns to help smooth idle.  On SOME bikes.

You want a simple answer.  But with anything to do with this crap.  There is NO one size fits all answer.  On your cable bike? I trust Ron's report. Worry about the 48C column.  On a DBW, the other columns may come into play.

It was a 'tool' thrown in for the heck of it... if emissions come into our lives at a later date.  It is also a tool thrown in for all of us to play with, and find uses for, and....  fodder to argue about.

Some cals have one table for both cyls. Some for each cyl seperately. V rod for example goes all the way to 212*F. In the end, your explanation covers it regardless of any variances in the tables between the different cals.
Ron

[07heri]

48* would be the last temp that could be edited but the table remains in play above that with the last set timing value. The table is used every time the throttle is at idle. I tend to agree the table is more EPA related. A cold rich running engine during warmup needs different timing to produce less smog. Same with hot idle. Easyest to do with a seperate table rather than the main. I suspect the table in our cals is not used for it's intended purpose for smog reduction during warmup or hot idle. Timing during warmup can be set to give the smoothest running and decel pop reduction if needed as well as normal hot timing.
Ron

Ok that makes sense.  I guess now that this is known, I'll just need to experiment with the transition.  Get the idle nice and smooth (CTS table) and then see how the bike responds to the main table setting (transition) when taking off from a dead stop.

[07heri]

Used 25 in CTS table and 20 in main table.  Started bike...idles at 20 from main table.  Now really confused.

[wurk_truk]

Heri, I do NOT think it will help you with a cable bike at all. I have STATED in a cable bike, as opposed to a DBW... there WILL be a difference on how this works.

Why don't you read a WHOLE post and not just what you wish?

But, until I can get someone to run this little test ... who knows.

I made a calibration that has 18* in the main spark and 25* in the CTS table. 

Nest, I made a calibration with the two matched.

View the differences.  Not any, huh?  I was WRONG but now we know.

DBW bike with CTS different than the main tables.  Notice how the spark jumps between the two and THAT, my friends, makes an engine surge for sure at cold idle.

Here is the cal.
https://www.box.com/s/thte5774lzujx6whovom

DATAMASTER:
https://www.box.com/s/yh1rpqnguiqabhykbtkv

Here, both the CTS and the main spark is set at 20.

Notice how smooth and staright across the timing is.  NO surge in THIS start up due to timing.
Here is the cal.
https://www.box.com/s/87b4pneky9wb2ofttlhu

DATAMASTER
https://www.box.com/s/u0zkzdz0z0kakoe22wrj

I don't WHY it is like this, either.  But here is what I see.

Test one resides at main spark tables during warm up.  Look at the 26* of timing.  The higher RPM is forcing into THAT table.  It is NOT using CTS.

In the second table?  It is doing the 20* advance of either table.  Maybe it is still in the main and NOT the cts.

I will do the test longer and watch bike get totally warm now.

[07heri]

Heri, I do NOT think it will help you with a cable bike at all. I have STATED in a cable bike, as opposed to a DBW... there WILL be a difference on how this works.

Why don't you read a WHOLE post and not just what you wish?

But, until I can get someone to run this little test ... who knows.

I made a calibration that has 18* in the main spark and 25* in the CTS table. 

Nest, I made a calibration with the two matched.

View the differences.

DBW bike with CTS different than the main tables.  Notice how the spark jumps between the two and THAT, my friends, makes an engine surge for sure at cold idle.

https://www.box.com/s/thte5774lzujx6whovom

Here, both the CTS and the main spark is set at 20.

Notice how smooth and staright across the timing is.  NO surge in THIS start up due to timing.

https://www.box.com/s/87b4pneky9wb2ofttlhu

You're arrogant as all heck.  Seeing as how you're the expert on how this table works perhaps you can explain the specific differences between cable and DBW.  Then follow up with the correct usage of this table for both models.  No guessing allowed...lol.

I'm experimenting based on what has been posted in this thread.

48* would be the last temp that could be edited but the table remains in play above that with the last set timing value. The table is used every time the throttle is at idle. I tend to agree the table is more EPA related. A cold rich running engine during warmup needs different timing to produce less smog. Same with hot idle. Easyest to do with a seperate table rather than the main. I suspect the table in our cals is not used for it's intended purpose for smog reduction during warmup or hot idle. Timing during warmup can be set to give the smoothest running and decel pop reduction if needed as well as normal hot timing.
Ron

From start to 250 degrees it stayed on the main table at idle.  Can watch gauges in PV showing temp and timing. 

I will give FM a call Monday.  Someone HAS to know the ins and outs of this table.  If, in fact, it is another gee wiz EPA table, I may not even get a straight answer from a vendor.  But, I will try.

[wurk_truk]

I said how arrogant I am...  I said that I was wrong here.

Here is a playing of how long the timing stays on main tables while warming up.

It ALWAYS stays on main tables.  Like you say.

So...  bite me.  HAHAH!!!

I would guess that (those that know where I got this tuning tidbitfrom) is NO GOOD.

It stays on main tables during whole warm up.

https://www.box.com/s/87b4pneky9wb2ofttlhu

So... best I can say id say my 'matching' the tables at least got it out of 25* advance.  Lookiong at the MAP sensor at 20* advance at idle REALLY helps to smooth the bike out.

Set timing in low tables to 18-22 for a nicer starting bike.

Now...  let's see where I CAN find CTS in action.

And... who else is REALLY trying experiments today for YOU?