can narrow bands be used for to tune to 13.2 @ WOT

[joe_lyons]

Give it a shot with tuning for 13.2. 

[FLTRI]

I also have a hunch that this question was a set up to a soon to be or already released new feature of a tuning system.   

Ummm hummmm. 
Old news Bob .

You can assume anything you want.
This thread was about a question
Can you use a narrow band sensor to tune to 13.2 afr?
Simple question...should be a simple answer.

Bob
Hint: Look at the graph posted by Coyote.

[Coyote]

Not enough info Bob. Question for you.

What are the conditions in the sensor use?

[Jeffd]

I don't know squat about tuning but it seems like if you could ascertain that you were at 1200* ex temps the answer would be yes.  I am sure it is more complicated then that tho.

[FLTRI]

Not enough info Bob. Question for you.

What are the conditions in the sensor use?

The only time the 13.2 afr target is sought is at WOT or max kpa.
In other words the sensor would be read and utilized during 100kpa running which would virtually assure peak egt. ~1200 degs.
Bob

[Coyote]

~1200? What is that? Did you see what even 100 deg difference makes in afr?

What if the bike is running a little lean? or a little rich?

And that is assuming all the sensors behave the same in that area of the graph.   

[BVHOG]

The question should be "why would you use a narrow band to attempt 13.2 to 1 afr when there are better alternatives out there?"

[FLTRI]

Did you see what even 100 deg difference makes in afr?

No, how much?

What if the bike is running a little lean? or a little rich?

A little lean = a mile or two more a gallon @ high load.
A little rich = a mile or two less per gallon @ high load

And that is assuming all the sensors behave the same in that area of the graph.   

Don't the same temperature issues you are referring to apply to broadband sensors as well? They are both Nernst cells, right?
I remember SC ranting about the error with broadbands due to lack of temperature correction.

So I guess what I'm saying is if temperature correction is not an important issue to folks relying on broadbands there should be no issue with narrow bands.
Bob

[Coyote]

No, how much?

Look at the graph

A little lean = a mile or two more a gallon @ high load.
A little rich = a mile or two less per gallon @ high load

Not talking about mileage, you missed the point. Think heat.

Don't the same temperature issues you are referring to apply to broadband sensors as well? They are both Nernst cells, right?
I remember SC ranting about the error with broadbands due to lack of temperature correction.

So I guess what I'm saying is if temperature correction is not an important issue to folks relying on broadbands there should be no issue with narrow bands.

Well I'm not looking at WB specs right now but most sensors don't behave well when operated outside of there intended range. WB's are spec'd for the range.

[FLTRI]

The question should be "why would you use a narrow band to attempt 13.2 to 1 afr when there are better alternatives out there?"

Dyno tuners would have no reason to replace their broadband with narrow band.
That said, for a DIY tuner if there was a reliable way the get to a good safe high load WOT afr utilizing the OEM sensors (especially the little bastards)...why not?

As far as better alternatives to a NBO2 when needing only to rely on 1 voltage outside the normal 14-15:1 range...not sure anything other than a true wideband lab grade sensor would be more accurate.

Bob

[FLTRI]

No, how much?

Look at the graph

I did that's why I asked the question. I do not see how much the AFR changes with 100 degs change.

A little lean = a mile or two more a gallon @ high load.
A little rich = a mile or two less per gallon @ high load

Not talking about mileage, you missed the point. Think heat.

Don't the same temperature issues you are referring to apply to broadband sensors as well? They are both Nernst cells, right?
I remember SC ranting about the error with broadbands due to lack of temperature correction.

So I guess what I'm saying is if temperature correction is not an important issue to folks relying on broadbands there should be no issue with narrow bands.

Well I'm not looking at WB specs right now but most sensors don't behave well when operated outside of there intended range. WB's are spec'd for the range.

Remember we are only talking of using the sensor for 13.2 @ max load so egt is reliable enough to use. Point being the range of usable (and reliability) is very narrow.

[ToBeFrank]

And that is assuming all the sensors behave the same in that area of the graph.   

This.

[ToBeFrank]

Don't the same temperature issues you are referring to apply to broadband sensors as well? They are both Nernst cells, right?
I remember SC ranting about the error with broadbands due to lack of temperature correction.

That would be why broadbands have heaters that are closed loop controlled.

So I guess what I'm saying is if temperature correction is not an important issue to folks relying on broadbands there should be no issue with narrow bands.

Narrow bands do not have closed loop heater control.

[rbabos]

Not enough info Bob. Question for you.

What are the conditions in the sensor use?

The only time the 13.2 afr target is sought is at WOT or max kpa.
In other words the sensor would be read and utilized during 100kpa running which would virtually assure peak egt. ~1200 degs.
Bob

Sometimes I think people work backwards in this tuning section. Ok, goal is 1200* Use egt 80-100kpa and heave the O2 sensor. Way easier method.
Ron

[wurk_truk]

Narrow bands do not have closed loop heater control.

Cool.  But the little jobs HAVE heaters and those heater circuits run off of the ECM.  Are they used in an on/off situation, or simply 'on' when ever the bikes ignition is also on?  I THOUGHT, with NO basis, I may add, that since they are connected to the ECM, that the heaters ARE controlled.  But from a momentary glance... that could simply be the ECM is the 'switch' that turns them on/off due to key/ run/stop movement.  Except for the fact that the GROUNDS are returned to the ECM.  That IS a way of measuring and controlling... BWTFDIK?

Interesting stuff.

O2 sensor has a way ass larger finer range than an EGT does. O2s also react WAY faster, too

Hey Ron, where can I find some EGTs I can clamp to the pipe? Instead of drilling and welding bungs?  I have some CHTs that replace the sparkplug gaskets, but wish EGTs and not CHTs.

[ToBeFrank]

Cool.  But the little jobs HAVE heaters and those heater circuits run off of the ECM.  Are they used in an on/off situation, or simply 'on' when ever the bikes ignition is also on?  I THOUGHT, with NO basis, I may add, that since they are connected to the ECM, that the heaters ARE controlled.  But from a momentary glance... that could simply be the ECM is the 'switch' that turns them on/off due to key/ run/stop movement.  Except for the fact that the GROUNDS are returned to the ECM.  That IS a way of measuring and controlling... BWTFDIK?

They are not closed loop controlled during operation. Broadbands are. I'm not trying to be a dick about it. That's the simplest way to say it.

[wurk_truk]

Cool.  But the little jobs HAVE heaters and those heater circuits run off of the ECM.  Are they used in an on/off situation, or simply 'on' when ever the bikes ignition is also on?  I THOUGHT, with NO basis, I may add, that since they are connected to the ECM, that the heaters ARE controlled.  But from a momentary glance... that could simply be the ECM is the 'switch' that turns them on/off due to key/ run/stop movement.  Except for the fact that the GROUNDS are returned to the ECM.  That IS a way of measuring and controlling... BWTFDIK?

They are not closed loop controlled during operation. Broadbands are. I'm not trying to be a dick about it. That's the simplest way to say it.

I'm not thinking that you are being a Dick...  you cannot help it like me!  HAHA!  I'm asking YOU to state the 'how' the ECM uses the heater circuit.  Thats ALL.  Nothing hidden NO agenda, etc Frank.  Was just curious.  I guess it's not forthcoming.

I'm in the shop, and while I have the fans blowing down a bike, I get on here and see what's happening, Frank.  Just curious... AND wishing I had brought up a 5hp Air Compressor to the shop, from the main car wash shop!  I am tuning a Stage 1 bike with TTS, and...  I also have wide bands in Herko blocks watching the action live... for shits and giggles.  I am just trying to become a better tuner is all, anymore.  The BS crap is for others...  I just try to understand how all of the subsystems work together.  If you don't wish to answer, to one of MY questions Frank, how about just say so.  I AM good with that.

Broadbands are closed loop on the heaters due to the controller used.  It is NOT inherent.  I am asking if our ECM controls the new small 12mm style O2s to mimic closed loop?  Do they warble?  Are they always turned on when ever the bike is?  I guess I am too dumb for you, Frank.  Just was asking due to the ECM controls these newer 12mm O2s.  Just wishing an opinion on 'why'.  I, myself, think it's pretty elegant solution to use the ECM as a simple on/off switch.  But?

[redmtrckl]

This may be helpful
http://www.fuelsaver-mpg.com/o2-sensors-types-of

[ToBeFrank]

I am asking if our ECM controls the new small 12mm style O2s to mimic closed loop?

When they are used in their intended range, as they will be with a factory ECM, they are accurate over temperature. There is no need to closed loop control the heater. It would add cost and complexity with no benefit.

[FLTRI]

That would be why broadbands have heaters that are closed loop controlled.

So broadbands control the heat at the sensor nose? I was under the impression the heaters are used to light off and keep the sensors lit...and will shut down when temps come up? How does it control the sensor heat from exhaust temp?

...Ok, goal is 1200* Use egt 80-100kpa and heave the O2 sensor....

That'll give the tuner a little more prep work before he starts tuning. Lessee, drill a another hole in the exhaust for the egt sensor...mount it, config the software...record data...run data through the mill...modify the calibration...install cal into ECM...repeat until correct.

[ToBeFrank]

So broadband controllers* control the heat at the sensor nose? (* I modified the bold part - ToBeFrank)

Yes.

How does it control the sensor heat from exhaust temp?

Google is your friend.

[wolf_59]

Question that goes along with this topic
Everyone has always said that NB sensors will be ruined if you use them for richer AFR's so at idle and heavy map run open loop to preserve the sensor life, Ok
My question is why? the sensors are still in the exhaust stream, still generating the voltages being created by the EGT, right! Just the voltages are not being utilized to adjust AFR since the ECM is not in closed loop operation
I would be more inclined to believe that the accuracy of the NB sensors start to diminish some what at voltages above 800mv due to the cooling affect of the richer AFR (no doubt that they could be ruined by fuel fouling just like a spark plug if flooded out) but why could you not use the CLB's to control these areas in closed loop for a richer AFR if the VE's have been properly set?

Just something that I have thought about because I would really like to have my bike running totally in closed loop
My apologies for thinking out loud via the best harley tech site on the internet
BTW did anyone notice the article about converting BB sensors to use in place of the NB sensors in Bobs link?


 

[FLTRI]

I am asking if our ECM controls the new small 12mm style O2s to mimic closed loop?

When they are used in their intended range, as they will be with a factory ECM, they are accurate over temperature. There is no need to closed loop control the heater. It would add cost and complexity with no benefit.

What's this?


[attachment removed after 60 days by system]

[wurk_truk]

 

[Coyote]

What's this?

It's open loop values for heater control. If it were closed loop, you wouldn't need a table, you would just set a temperature. Good to see you today Bob.