can narrow bands be used for to tune to 13.2 @ WOT

[FLTRI]

What's this?

It's open loop values for heater control. If it were closed loop, you wouldn't need a table, you would just set a temperature. Good to see you today Bob. 

Keith how is this any different than a VE table in a closed loop fuel system.
The O2 sensor performs two jobs.
Bob

[Coyote]

What's this?

It's open loop values for heater control. If it were closed loop, you wouldn't need a table, you would just set a temperature. Good to see you today Bob. 

Keith how is this any different than a VE table in a closed loop fuel system.
The O2 sensor performs two jobs.
Bob

The difference is there is no temp sensor, so no feed back. It's open loop control only.

[FLTRI]

What's this?

It's open loop values for heater control. If it were closed loop, you wouldn't need a table, you would just set a temperature. Good to see you today Bob. 

Keith how is this any different than a VE table in a closed loop fuel system.
The O2 sensor performs two jobs.
Bob

The difference is there is no temp sensor, so no feed back. It's open loop control only.

I thought you would at least question the second job of the sensor.
The o2 resistance is read by the ECM and interpreted as temperature.
This is no different than the way a broadband closed loop heater controlled circuit works.
Bob

[Coyote]

OK, but if that is true (and I have no idea), then there would be no need to have a table since I thought the goal is to maintain A single EGR temp.  Unlike afr that you want to change over different conditions. 

[ToBeFrank]

OK, but if that is true (and I have no idea), then there would be no need to have a table since I thought the goal is to maintain A single EGR temp.  Unlike afr that you want to change over different conditions. 

Agreed.

[FLTRI]

OK, but if that is true (and I have no idea), then there would be no need to have a table since I thought the goal is to maintain A single EGR temp.  Unlike afr that you want to change over different conditions. 

Agreed.

Try this:
The goal is to maintain an specific AFR with closed loop fueling.
The goal is to maintain a specific O2 temp with closed loop heater control.
The O2 heater system is closed loop because it uses feedback (O2 sensor temperature) to modify the heater table (map/rpm) to maintain specific sensor temperature.
Bob

[Coyote]

Sorry,  not buying it as it makes no sense to me even looking at the tts software. I could go into other reasons why the tts table tells me that is not right but I think it would not do any good.   

[FLTRI]

Sorry,  not buying it as it makes no sense to me even looking at the tts software. I could go into other reasons why the tts table tells me that is not right but I think it would not do any good.   

I gave you a perfect analogy and you say your sorry you can't buy it?
You obviously know some secret tts tuning stuff like ToBeFrank...and that's OK.
Maybe it's best for us not to share that knowledge?

Bob

[FLTRI]

Back on topic.
Sooooooo
Has there been a consensus of opinion on the utilization of a narrow band O2 sensor to tune to 13.2?
Lots of dancing around the question...but no one has stepped up with knowledge?
Bob

[ultraswede]

I don't think its possible to any quality standards tune to 13.2 using voltage of off a NB o2 sensor.

If this was possible, it would have been a low hanging fruit to pick for tuner product manufacturers.
Which we haven't seen.

Soooooooo

And on might ask one self, why do this, if possible.
Isn't VE tuning good enough? 

[mayor]

Has there been a consensus of opinion on the utilization of a narrow band O2 sensor to tune to 13.2?
Lots of dancing around the question...but no one has stepped up with knowledge?

here's a quote that suggests it's possible:

An O2 sensor has no idea what an engine is doing nor does it care. The decision to not allow for tuning above 84 kPa was a company decision here.....The ECM doesn't care as long as it is properly set up for it and just switching the table to closed loop is not all that needs to be done. There are plenty of things that can be done, provided you have enough data to support those decisions....

If people are to look at data then make an adjustment, then repeat the process it is up to them and you can do it just as good with a narrow band sensor as you can with a Broad Band one as they are used today. Neither will be accurate but both will show you when the mixture is changing and which direction is leaner or richer.

let's see what we have so far:

Bob, it looks to me as if the sensor is useless in that range as it varies wildly over temperature.  In the sensors active range, it is very stable over temperature. This is where all the lines converge together.

At least that would be my take on it

Using the graph and the associated EGT what AFR range would 900mv relate to?
Note: A properly tuned engine should produce ~1200 degs @ WOT...which is the condition we need say 13.2.

Can the sensor be used for tuning to other AFR without voltage verification? Hell no.
But it can be used to target a specific voltage/AFR. ie: 900mv = 13.2 @ 1200deg (WOT)

Not enough info Bob. Question for you.

What are the conditions in the sensor use?

The only time the 13.2 afr target is sought is at WOT or max kpa.
In other words the sensor would be read and utilized during 100kpa running which would virtually assure peak egt. ~1200 degs. 

looks like at a known constant EGT, this is possible.  So, is the EGT a fixed 1200°f?   if the 1200°f is not an absolute constant, then the heat corralation chart suggests to me that the results could be quite varied.  The wording you used is "should", which doesn't suggest to me that this is a constant.  I would think that timing alone could change this variable to some extent, and I would guess that different blends of fuel may have an affect on EGT...especially since timing is fixed (meaning not a variable tied to the fuel).

so, I would infer that the EGT is not a fixed constant...so that's where I would guess that this comment is coming in:

I thought you would at least question the second job of the sensor.
The o2 resistance is read by the ECM and interpreted as temperature.
This is no different than the way a broadband closed loop heater controlled circuit works.

so, am I caught up to where you are leading us? 

[mayor]

so, if exhaust gas temperature is critical in determining actual read afr on a narrow band, then this sounds like it could be problematic:

A typical automotive gasoline exhaust will run peak temperatures of 1400 F......... A typical HD BT engine will run about 1400 as well under load and 900 at idle. If you lean them out at peak torque they can go as high as 1800 F, that is where peak power is found.

that seems like quite a variable in temp, and I don't see 1200°f referenced in that quote 

[HD/Wrench]

Back on topic.
Sooooooo
Has there been a consensus of opinion on the utilization of a narrow band O2 sensor to tune to 13.2?

Bob

I had this conversation with Steve but more so in reverse as we started with wide band data . pressure transducers, % of change in the curve in the 02 sensor from one point to the next ( say 13.5 to 14.2 and the % of offset from one to another based on pressure).  It ended up where you are at with the question.     

[rbabos]

Narrow bands do not have closed loop heater control.

Cool.  But the little jobs HAVE heaters and those heater circuits run off of the ECM.  Are they used in an on/off situation, or simply 'on' when ever the bikes ignition is also on?  I THOUGHT, with NO basis, I may add, that since they are connected to the ECM, that the heaters ARE controlled.  But from a momentary glance... that could simply be the ECM is the 'switch' that turns them on/off due to key/ run/stop movement.  Except for the fact that the GROUNDS are returned to the ECM.  That IS a way of measuring and controlling... BWTFDIK?

Interesting stuff.

O2 sensor has a way ass larger finer range than an EGT does. O2s also react WAY faster, too

Hey Ron, where can I find some EGTs I can clamp to the pipe? Instead of drilling and welding bungs?  I have some CHTs that replace the sparkplug gaskets, but wish EGTs and not CHTs.

John: Here.
http://store.leadingedgeairfoils.com/index.php?manufacturers_id=46&page=2
Make an adapter to fit the existing O2 sensors. Other option is drill the pipe and use the clamp on design. This will establish a better location than most present O2 locations. Shove probe as far in as possible until it hits pipe and pull out 1/4". As with anything location is key . 1200* is too low in my view. Personally I'd hit 1250 at wfo on a 4 stroke. 
All this takes is to set optimum fuel for that particular cyl/cyls. Somewhat dependant on probe location and all that crap as usual.  I'll leave it to you to decide on what idle, cruise egts should be based on your research.  These damn instruments react fast and will likely show inconsistancies in your present tune between cyls. I've only tuned 2 strokes with them. 1000-1050* idle, 1100-1150 full throttle and 1200 as max cruise on aircraft apps. Hell of a balancing act with needle scraping etc on Bing carbs to match them sometimes but doable. Pick the 4 stroke temps, which are much higher and have at it. You will be surprised at what you see, compared to what the O2 sensor gave you, since now you are measuring the flame temp. You know, the "Potty mouth" inside the cumbustion chamber doing all the work. If I had to make a choice between NB, BB and egt, I'd trust the egt most to tell the real story.
Ron

[ToBeFrank]

I had this conversation with Steve but more so in reverse as we started with wide band data . pressure transducers, % of change in the curve in the 02 sensor from one point to the next ( say 13.5 to 14.2 and the % of offset from one to another based on pressure).  It ended up where you are at with the question.     

Might want to take what he says about the % errors with a grain of salt. He intentionally makes them worse than they are. I say intentionally because his mistake has been pointed out to him at least twice and yet he continues to make it.

[FLTRI]

OK, but if that is true (and I have no idea), then there would be no need to have a table since I thought the goal is to maintain A single EGR temp.  Unlike afr that you want to change over different conditions. 

Agreed.

Try this:
The goal is to maintain an specific AFR with closed loop fueling.
The goal is to maintain a specific O2 temp with closed loop heater control.
The O2 heater system is closed loop because it uses feedback (O2 sensor temperature) to modify the heater table (map/rpm) to maintain specific sensor temperature.
Bob

I had this conversation with Steve but more so in reverse as we started with wide band data . pressure transducers, % of change in the curve in the 02 sensor from one point to the next ( say 13.5 to 14.2 and the % of offset from one to another based on pressure).  It ended up where you are at with the question.     

Might want to take what he says about the % errors with a grain of salt. He intentionally makes them worse than they are. I say intentionally because his mistake has been pointed out to him at least twice and yet he continues to make it.

I am asking if our ECM controls the new small 12mm style O2s to mimic closed loop?

When they are used in their intended range, as they will be with a factory ECM, they are accurate over temperature. There is no need to closed loop control the heater. It would add cost and complexity with no benefit.

So Frank, does the ECM make decisions as to O2 heater control based on the table I posted and sensor temperature as read off the signal wire? Looks like a classic closed loop system to me.

You have yet to answer the basic questions asked by wurk_truk of you...wonder why?

You very quickly dismiss info from SC as without merit and should be taken with a grain of salt.

Don't you build and sell broadband o2 products? Don't you have a horse in this race?

Steve uses both Widebands and narrow bands daily and sells NO O2 products...just software to use what's on the bike that can be effectively utilized to tune.

Just can't figure why you continue refuse to answer questions yet come back with comments that knock:

-Someone with 20+ years working with and producing products to tune vehicles (not just HD) using what's on the bike rather than having to purchase, adapt, and then repair the exhaust system.
-Someone who has directly contracted to an OEM to develop tuning products.
-Someone who is at work everyday of the week to develop usable products for the end user that do not require outside rigging or addition monetary investments.

Please address and answer the few questions posed to you multiple times.
Bob
PS- Advising to use Google to find the answer posed to you indicates you don't know the answer.

[ToBeFrank]

So Frank, does the ECM make decisions as to O2 heater control based on the table I posted and sensor temperature as read off the signal wire? Looks like a classic closed loop system to me.

Coyote answered this for you. Move on.

You very quickly dismiss info from SC as without merit and should be taken with a grain of salt.

You must have missed the merit I provided in my post above. Here it is for you in a way even you can understand (hint, these are links):
http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,59408.msg635667.html#msg635667
http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,59408.msg635674.html#msg635674

Don't you build and sell broadband o2 products?

No. Just software that can use either narrowband or broadband data. Software which I have never attempted to advertise nor sell on here.

Steve uses both Widebands and narrow bands daily and sells NO O2 products...just software to use what's on the bike that can be effectively utilized to tune.

Funny how it's a positive for Steve, but a negative for me.

PS- Advising to use Google to find the answer posed to you indicates you don't know the answer.

It implies you should do some research for yourself rather than just repeating what you're told. I'm done learning you, Bob.

[wurk_truk]

But, do NOT be done learning me if it even means doing it off of HTT, Frank.

[ultraswede]

Quoting my self,

And on might ask one self, why do this, if possible.
Isn't VE tuning good enough? 

Why bother when we have a perfectly good way of tuning with NB sensors already?

[FLTRI]

So Frank, does the ECM make decisions as to O2 heater control based on the table I posted and sensor temperature as read off the signal wire? Looks like a classic closed loop system to me.

Coyote answered this for you. Move on.

Typical dodge to the answer. There is no difference between the closed loop fueling and the closed loop heater control.
They both have lookup tables. They both rely on sensor feedback to modify the table values.

Steve uses both Widebands and narrow bands daily and sells NO O2 products...just software to use what's on the bike that can be effectively utilized to tune.

Funny how it's a positive for Steve, but a negative for me.

That's because I receive a lot of help and understanding and problem solving from Steve and get nothing but disrespect and bad mouthing from you.

PS- Advising to use Google to find the answer posed to you indicates you don't know the answer.

It implies you should do some research for yourself rather than just repeating what you're told. I'm done learning you, Bob.

In the entire time I've read your posts I have learned you have a personal vendetta with SC and anyone who see's and/or agrees with his point(s).

Still evading the answers to the questions??? wonder why??....
Bob

[Jeffd]

This thread reminds me of some of the SC threads where things would get stirred up and people would get pissy with one another and the question proposed would never get answered. Why does everything have to be so cryptic (sp?)

[Coyote]

You obviously know some secret tts tuning stuff like ToBeFrank..

Bob

I've yet to read a single post by ToBeFrank that I thought was in error. Wonder why that is? 

[FLTRI]

This thread reminds me of some of the SC threads where things would get stirred up and people would get pissy with one another and the question proposed would never get answered. Why does everything have to be so cryptic (sp?)

You obviously know some secret tts tuning stuff like ToBeFrank..

Bob

I've yet to read a single post by ToBeFrank that I thought was in error. Wonder why that is? 

I would not think you would challenge TBF, after all he has experience with tuning software. That eliminates any doubt of his statements?
Just looking for answers but have received nothing but grief and bad mouthing.
How 'bout OP answers so we all can learn?
Why is there so much smoke and mirrors?
Why insult me?

Bob

[Coyote]

No insults intended. I have no idea what Frank's background is. All I'm saying is his statements make sense and follow logic as I know it. You seem to bait him out and then dismiss what he says out-of-hand.  He seems spot on to me.

I listen to you as well and found our conversation yesterday interesting.

It's also pretty clear that your intent in posting this thread was not to learn; based on our conversation yesterday you came into this knowing the answers.

I'll let you get back to it though. Peace...

[Jeffd]

Bob

1. Just looking for answers but have received nothing but grief and bad mouthing.
2. How 'bout OP answers so we all can learn?
3. Why is there so much smoke and mirrors?
4. Why insult me?

Bob
[/quote]

#3 seems to be the ultimate question.