How to use a SE pro Super Tuner for IDIOTS

[fltrdes]

Wrapping my head around Dr. Dyno explanations of 02 sensors and other tuning black magic here:

http://www.drdyno.com/AIM_2010-09.html
http://www.drdyno.com/AIM_2010-07.html

Great explanations of cause and effect!

[jty]

Both sensors are going to put out the same voltage.  They are both lambda sensors and put out lambda signal voltage.  Changing the scale in the program is going to do nothing on how the ECM reads the voltage or what lambda it is going to target.  It is just a scale you our reading.

Lambda = 450mv  If 14.2 is stoich, That will put out 450mv.  If 13.8 is stoich, that will put out 450.  No reason to change from fuel to fuel.  It is scaling.

If you use 10% ethanol gas, the AFR at stoic is about 14.1 but sensors do not know it.

Assuming you smart tune the bike with 10% ethanol gas (95E this side of the pond), the VE's will still be adjusted properly for that fuel. Thus if your AFR table says 14.6, the real AFR will be 14.1 but combustion will be stoic - and lambda 1. All good. If you set your afr table to 13.2, i.e. lambda 0.9, the real afr will be 12.9 - but it's the lambda that matters so again, all good. As long as you use the same gas, all is good.
What happens if you then use 100% gasoline? The VE's were adjusted for 3% lower AFR fuel. In the area where the AFR table is set for closed loop (14.6), the ecm automatically adjusts and over time it learns the difference (afv).  In the areas where the AFR table is in open loop, say, 13.2, the actual mixture is then about 3% richer, thus the actual AFR would be about 12.9, but the learned afv may affect that too. But at least the mixture will not  not too lean.

[fltrdes]

It appears (reads...) that the VE tables may be the best bet in adjusting overall AFRs on the narrow band 02 equipped Twin Cam '07-'09...

[hrdtail78]

It appears (reads...) that the VE tables may be the best bet in adjusting overall AFRs on the narrow band 02 equipped Twin Cam '07-'09...

Not in my experience.  If the VE's are mapped to airflow correctly.  Adjustments to the AFR table is better.

[fltrdes]

It appears (reads...) that the VE tables may be the best bet in adjusting overall AFRs on the narrow band 02 equipped Twin Cam '07-'09...

Not in my experience.  If the VE's are mapped to airflow correctly.  Adjustments to the AFR table is better.

I would think that VE mapping can be adjusted to tell the ECM that it is getting more airflow that it actually is, and therefore you would get an enriching pulse from the injectors in closed loop mode. The narrow band 02 sensors will only read between 15:1 to 14.2:1. 14.2:1 is far better than 14.7:1 but I believe the higher 13:1 range will giver better performance and cooler motor overall (quoting some Dr. Dyno info here...). He suggests putting 02 sensor eliminators on the narrow band 02 sensor bikes and tune them with a PC III-usb as if they were pre '02 machines.

[lonewolf]

I would think that VE mapping can be adjusted to tell the ECM that it is getting more airflow that it actually is, and therefore you would get an enriching pulse from the injectors in closed loop mode. The narrow band 02 sensors will only read between 15:1 to 14.2:1. 14.2:1 is far better than 14.7:1 but I believe the higher 13:1 range will giver better performance and cooler motor overall (quoting some Dr. Dyno info here...). He suggests putting 02 sensor eliminators on the narrow band 02 sensor bikes and tune them with a PC III-usb as if they were pre '02 machines.

Don't believe everything you read on the internet. Hrdtail's got it right.

[hrdtail78]

Set those areas to 13.1 and run that area open loop.

[fltrdes]

Set those areas to 13.1 and run that area open loop.

With 02 eliminators?

[hrdtail78]

There is no need for those with SEPST.

[fltrdes]

I watched my Harley tech flash a map into my ECM today, and I noticed when he checked the boxes for "Enable Smart tune Reflash" and "Reset Adaptive Fuel". When he clicked the reflash button, he got a warning message on his screen. I don't remember exactly what it said but it was something to the effect that "Smart tune is not recommended for this MAP" or something similar. When he selected 'continue' and clicked the reflash button, the software unchecked the "Enable Smart tune Reflash" box but continued with the reflash. I was not able to manipulate the software myself so I could not check to see if he was in the advanced mode (not sure if this would have cured this issue or not). I did have him use file 205UH005.dt0 and reset the CID to 96.1 in Tuning Setup.
He will test ride and I should be able to pick up the bike this weekend.

[1Canuck]

The message said that he set up the tuner to collect data for VE adjustments but the warning said do not ride the bike with that setting except for collection of data. after he rides he will collect the data, update the VE and reflash without checking the enable smart tune box. I hope, I mean you hope. Be sure to ask if he reflashed without the box checked when you pick up the bike

[fltrdes]

The message said that he set up the tuner to collect data for VE adjustments but the warning said do not ride the bike with that setting except for collection of data. after he rides he will collect the data, update the VE and reflash without checking the enable smart tune box. I hope, I mean you hope. Be sure to ask if he reflashed without the box checked when you pick up the bike

My tech originally reflashed the ECM with a Stage 1 download. When I came in this morning to check on his progress with the bike I was told it was done. I had my tech reflash again with a Stage II download and that is when I noticed the "Enable Smart tune Reflash" box was being unchecked by the reflash process.
I will be doing the Smart Tune process on the street instead of the dealer doing it on the Dyno. My tech suggested they NOT do the smart tune on the Dyno because it is too hard on the motor. Apparently they are taught to use the Dyno break to apply load to the rear tire and it is too much (in his opinion...). I am not real clear on their exact procedure.

[hrdtail78]

I would get your bike out of there ASAP.  Brake load on the dyno is dependent on several things, and making a blanket statement is ignorance.  IMHO

[1Canuck]

I watched my Harley tech flash a map into my ECM today, and I noticed when he checked the boxes for "Enable Smart tune Reflash" and "Reset Adaptive Fuel". When he clicked the reflash button, he got a warning message on his screen. .............
He will test ride and I should be able to pick up the bike this weekend.

now you say it is finished today, which is it?
you flashed with stage II, because?
In any event retrieve the stage II flash from the VCI and look at the AFR table, if it is all 14.6 you have a problem

[fltrdes]

I watched my Harley tech flash a map into my ECM today, and I noticed when he checked the boxes for "Enable Smart tune Reflash" and "Reset Adaptive Fuel". When he clicked the reflash button, he got a warning message on his screen. .............
He will test ride and I should be able to pick up the bike this weekend.

now you say it is finished today, which is it?

Yes, I was told the bike is done today. No, they did not do a dyno tune on it, they only flashed map 205UH005.dt0.

you flashed with stage II, because?

Bike has a Stage 1 aircleaner and SE-255 cams. That was the closest BASE file for my hardware config. That is what base file 205UH005.dt0 is for except we modified the displacement to 96.1 c.i..

In any event retrieve the stage II flash from the VCI and look at the AFR table, if it is all 14.6 you have a problem

I believe the base map for any of the Twin Cams would have 14.6 AFR in the closed loop areas. Not sure because I have not looked through all of them. In your opinion, why would I be in trouble over and above it was already a toaster to begin with? Believe me, I intend to richen up the closed loop AFR one way or the other....
hrdtail78 posted that I should set them all at 13.1:1. Seems a little rich to me for good mileage and a cooler motor, but then who am I to judge. Hope he meant well with that suggestion. Bike is a full dress 'casual' ride for the wife and I, not a street light-to-street light asphalt burner...
Thanks for your post, 1Canuck.

[1Canuck]

My replies were for the question you asked about the warning when he flashed with "enable smart tune" checked.
I said you need to check to make sure it was not left with ALL the AFR at 14.6, it will be too lean outside the cruise area

[fltrdes]

My replies were for the question you asked about the warning when he flashed with "enable smart tune" checked.
I said you need to check to make sure it was not left with ALL the AFR at 14.6, it will be too lean outside the cruise area

Thank you, I must have misunderstood your question... I did not compare the entire AFR table for the Stage II map but I am pretty sure the red 14.6:1 cells were only in the usual closed loop area, not high speed... Is that what you meant? In any case, this is still too high AFR! I could attach my Xieds to the 02 sensors and that will richen up the AFR outside the ECM and affect only the closed loop area... At least that or I just adjust the closed loop AFR map down at least to 13.5:1 and reflash...

[harpwrench]

You might wanna read about closed loop bias.

[hrdtail78]

When you check the smart tune button.  It doesn't show you the AFR/ spark tables.  You can pull it back out and see what it changes though.

What is the desired AFR you are looking for and in which areas?  Idle, light load, medium load, and WOT?

[fltrdes]

When you check the smart tune button.  It doesn't show you the AFR/ spark tables.  You can pull it back out and see what it changes though.

What is the desired AFR you are looking for and in which areas?  Idle, light load, medium load, and WOT?

hrdtail78, I guess I am not sure what AFR I want in closed loop other than I want to cut way down on the heat generated but I am willing to sacrifice a minimal amount of fuel mileage too. I use the bike for touring and pulling a trailer, so it is more of a 'truck' for us as opposed to a 'sports car'. We wanted more low and mid range torque, hence the SE-255 cam option. With that said, I think the light load and medium load areas, running in closed loop, would be the concentration of the final tune.
I am comparing all the map settings between 205TD004 map, which appears to be a Stage 1 for my '09 RG and the 205UH005 map, which appears to be the closest choice for my SE-255 cams and Stage 1 A/C setup.

Snowing again here in the part of Montana where I live, so getting the bike back home from the dealer this week end is looking tentative at best.

[strokerjlk]

maybe this will help.
you got some bad info somewhere.

http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,26802.0.html

[joe_lyons]

Not doing smart tune on the dyno is absolutely dumb.  A. Controlled temp. B. Ability to view rear afr. C. You can properly control load for all rpm ranges  D.  No possible way of breaking roadway laws due to speeding.    I guess I don't understand why those guys even have a dyno if they don't use it but mabie its because they do not know how to.  In the words of my priest "Run to the hills, run for your life".
Others may have other ideas but this I think is a decent afr table to use after smart tuning

[fltrdes]

Not doing smart tune on the dyno is absolutely dumb.  A. Controlled temp. B. Ability to view rear afr. C. You can properly control load for all rpm ranges  D.  No possible way of breaking roadway laws due to speeding.    I guess I don't understand why those guys even have a dyno if they don't use it but maybe its because they do not know how to.  In the words of my priest "Run to the hills, run for your life".
Others may have other ideas but this I think is a decent afr table to use after smart tuning.

Joe, thanks for bringing up some REAL valid points. In my case, I have been dealing with a service tech at the dealership I've known for several years but only recently has he spent some major engine work on my bike. He does not operate the dyno for tuning I believe, I think there is another tech there that actually does the tuning, and I WILL be have conversation with him to understand THEIR tuning process. If the tech thinks it is too hard on the vehicle, I want to know exactly why he thinks that. Is your AFR MAP off your smart tune? What year, model and upgrades does this one represent?

[fltrdes]

maybe this will help.
you got some bad info somewhere.

http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,26802.0.html

strokerjlk, an interesting read, even if I don't understand ALL of it, I came away with that the 02 sensor works best if allowed to do its job in the middle of its operation range. I believe most metering devices are like that. (ie: torque wrenches are more accurate with readings in the middle of their settings than at either end of their range.).
The question is, then, where are the BEST and most effective areas in the MAP to affect a closed loop functionality to achieve a lower AFR (all other inputs and outputs of the ECM considered), cooler running bike, and most effective power for any given hardware menu?
It seems to me (being a band-aid of sorts) that the Xieds that change the effective MV range of the narrow band '09 02 sensors on my bike would effect a change in the stoich AFR ALONG with changing the AFR MAP in the closed loop area commensurate with what the Xied value range is supposed to be (14.0:1 to 13.8:1).

[Grillfish]

"cooler running bike, and most effective power"

That takes a combination of accurate VEs, with a well established target AFR table AND timing   Many people throw fuel at the bike to cool it down, but slight changes to timing can impact EGTs tremendously.

Few posts above, Joe shared what he uses as a good target AFR map to use, AFTER the VEs are calibrated.  Other folks use a different approach and their map looks slightly different.