Gaterman GP-1023 Lifters Long Term Wear

[Billy]

Past the point of shimming.

You remember the fix

[Admiral Akbar]

Past the point of shimming.

You remember the fix
snip

Billy

No, He didn't I had to remind him that you had done one..   How many miles on the fix?

http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,13823.msg139211.html#msg139211

Max

[Billy]

It's been running strong for about 8,000, and (slowly) counting.

[Admiral Akbar]

It's been running strong for about 8,000, and (slowly) counting.

Thanks for the update..

Max

[q1svt]

Past the point of shimming.

You remember the fix

Very nice repair work..

I noticed your comment in reply# 22 from the repair thread... looks like more than just Timken Bearings have changed since 2002 model year.  http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,13823.0.html

"

Poorboy, I don't know what the clearance spec is suppose to be between the flat of the lifter and the anti-rotation pin but I mocked up the front lifters in their bores (undamaged side on this case) and I could get .003 feeler gauges between both lifters and the pin at the same time, I set up the rear lifters the same at .003 and you could turn the lifters a little, I'm hoping it's OK. Makes sense for it to have clearance there.

"

2013's within this thread are .008

[Billy]

Past the point of shimming.

You remember the fix

Very nice repair work..

I noticed your comment in reply# 22 from the repair thread... looks like more than just Timken Bearings have changed since 2002 model year.  http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,13823.0.html

"

Poorboy, I don't know what the clearance spec is suppose to be between the flat of the lifter and the anti-rotation pin but I mocked up the front lifters in their bores (undamaged side on this case) and I could get .003 feeler gauges between both lifters and the pin at the same time, I set up the rear lifters the same at .003 and you could turn the lifters a little, I'm hoping it's OK. Makes sense for it to have clearance there.

"

2013's within this thread are .008

Thanks.

With the gauge pins, we can easily bring the clearance to a more warm and fuzzy .003. Don't know if it will help from frosting the lifters or not though...

[mike jesse]

Billy, has the lifter bore been bushed as well? Looks that way from the pic.
Neat trick to save a case BTW.

[Billy]

Billy, has the lifter bore been bushed as well? Looks that way from the pic.
Neat trick to save a case BTW.

Yeah, I sleeved it. Lifter was turned about 90°, made a mess. Max posted a link to the thread, here it is again.

http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,13823.msg139211.html#msg139211

[PanHeadRed]

Past the point of shimming.

How's the rollers look?

Ron

Yep, 120,000 on the engine. When the failure took place I can't say, I just noticed it this morning. There has never been a problem with lifters, but I will examine them closely and let you know.

[PanHeadRed]

Past the point of shimming.

You remember the fix

I was considering pins, fasteners, and other options as well as replacing the case. I would like to restore it to the original line contact for the AR Pin, but if point contact is working it may be a simpler solution. The wheels are turning.

Thanks for the link.

[PanHeadRed]

I posted in that thread, must have been where I got the pin idea from.

[PanHeadRed]

Past the point of shimming.

How's the rollers look?

Ron

Rollers were fine, only 8,000 - 10,000 on them, this engine has never shown abnormal wear patters on the cam lobes or lifters.

[strokerjlk]

Past the point of shimming.

How's the rollers look?

Ron

Rollers were fine, only 8,000 - 10,000 on them, this engine has never shown abnormal wear patters on the cam lobes or lifters.

So the motor has 120,000 miles , but  the lifter bore just went out of round in the last 8000-10,000 miles ? 
Kinda blows the sloppy anti rotation pin theory out of the water .

[PanHeadRed]

The lifter bore is not out of round, there is a crack at the base of the AR Pin boss adjacent to the front intake hole. I am assuming the lifter was oscillating and tapping on the pin. When the crack occurred I have no idea, I noticed it for the 1st time yesterday AM.

[strokerjlk]

The lifter bore is not out of round, there is a crack at the base of the AR Pin boss adjacent to the front intake hole. I am assuming the lifter was oscillating and tapping on the pin. When the crack occurred I have no idea, I noticed it for the 1st time yesterday AM.

Ahh ... 

[rbabos]

The lifter bore is not out of round, there is a crack at the base of the AR Pin boss adjacent to the front intake hole. I am assuming the lifter was oscillating and tapping on the pin. When the crack occurred I have no idea, I noticed it for the 1st time yesterday AM.

Think for that to happen the pin clearance was too tight in relation to the lifter bore clearance. Continual lifter rocking on the cams down ramp likely cracked it. This is where pin clearance should be measured for minimum. When the lifter is opening the valve it cocks to a most most clearance condition. Sitting there static is not a true reading for actual operating clearances.
Ron

[Admiral Akbar]

The lifter bore is not out of round, there is a crack at the base of the AR Pin boss adjacent to the front intake hole. I am assuming the lifter was oscillating and tapping on the pin. When the crack occurred I have no idea, I noticed it for the 1st time yesterday AM.

Think for that to happen the pin clearance was too tight in relation to the lifter bore clearance. Continual lifter rocking on the cams down ramp likely cracked it. This is where pin clearance should be measured for minimum. When the lifter is opening the valve it cocks to a most most clearance condition. Sitting there static is not a true reading for actual operating clearances.
Ron

I would think is was the opposite.. The pin was a little loose.. You can see a grove where the pin sets also.. The pin was able to float around. There may be something wrong with the tappet cover.. May bent slightly from using the 99 fiber gasket and not flat on the bottom?  Anyway after 120K (or part) of tapping, the block cracked..

Another possibility would be that the flat, on the a lifter that was installed in that hole, was not machined far enough down the side of the lifter.. When the lifter moved up it jammed the pin up against the block in the case..

Max

[rbabos]

The lifter bore is not out of round, there is a crack at the base of the AR Pin boss adjacent to the front intake hole. I am assuming the lifter was oscillating and tapping on the pin. When the crack occurred I have no idea, I noticed it for the 1st time yesterday AM.

Think for that to happen the pin clearance was too tight in relation to the lifter bore clearance. Continual lifter rocking on the cams down ramp likely cracked it. This is where pin clearance should be measured for minimum. When the lifter is opening the valve it cocks to a most most clearance condition. Sitting there static is not a true reading for actual operating clearances.
Ron

I would think is was the opposite.. The pin was a little loose.. You can see a grove where the pin sets also.. The pin was able to float around. There may be something wrong with the tappet cover.. May bent slightly from using the 99 fiber gasket and not flat on the bottom?  Anyway after 120K (or part) of tapping, the block cracked..

Another possibility would be that the flat, on the a lifter that was installed in that hole, was not machined far enough down the side of the lifter.. When the lifter moved up it jammed the pin up against the block in the case..

Max

Possibly on the lifter flat theory. The pin did pound a nice dent into the guide over time though, until it got tired and cracked. Plain old floating clearances won't do that. Don't think if it was a loose pin it would have enough inertia to pound with enough force to cause that. Gasket finger would dampen it also from chatter.
Ron

[Admiral Akbar]

Possibly on the lifter flat theory. The pin did pound a nice dent into the guide over time though, until it got tired and cracked. Plain old floating clearances won't do that. Don't think if it was a loose pin it would have enough inertia to pound with enough force to cause that. Gasket finger would dampen it also from chatter.
Ron

An incorrect lifter flat would explain why the cover is not flat and the boss cracked. The groove in the lower part of the case was made from play alone..

Loose to start? Cut at the base is sharp and case cast. Casting flaw with loose pin.. Possible.

Max

[BUBBIE]

 

Wondered IF my 1023 gaterman lifters were ALL checked for Looseness of the roller and bearing OR just sampled along the way ? IF that...

So far; gaterman checked at .000? and another at .001?... Hoping mine are the Tight ones...

Next time apart I'd check mine like Joe did but will not tear into it while it is seeming Good for now just to check.

signed....BUBBIE

[06roadglide]

Past the point of shimming.

What cams, lifters and springs are in this engine?

A lot of speculation about sloppy pins but has anyone made sure that the cams aren't lifting the lifters too high and forcing the pin against the case. Or how about to soft of spring pressure and the lifter ramps up off the lobe at highest lift and the lifter bounces into the AR pin.

Just doesn't seem likely to me that little bit of clearance in the AR pins can allow the lifter to rotate ENOUGH to cause any problems. 

IMO

[Deye76]

"Or how about to soft of spring pressure and the lifter ramps up off the lobe at highest lift and the lifter bounces into the AR pin."

Could be a valid concern. 

[Winston Wolf]

Pulled another set of these Gaterman's out last week. Under 20,000 miles, stock 96" with cam only. 3 of the 4 looked pretty good, but the front exhaust roller was glazed and took the finish off the tip of the cam lobe also.

Guy replaced with a 222 Wood cam and S&S premiums.

[strokerjlk]

Front exhaust will put em to the test .

[rbabos]

Wonder how much a crappy tune done too rich will have an effect on oil dilution and subsequent lifter failures?
Ron