Gaterman GP-1023 Lifters Long Term Wear

[Ohio HD]

The boundary layer is close to microscopic, it's filling in the peaks and valleys of the material. The "flow" in front of the wheel is carrying away most of the heat. When the layer breaks down due to heat, contaminants etc., it stops filling in those peaks and valleys.

A visual indication of lofting will be lines in the wheel running in the same direction of rotation. Think airplane wheel touching the ground on landing. Problem is contaminants in the average street engine will cause the same wear so it's hard to determine. In a race engine much easier.

I can understand the lofting causing visual wear marks, makes sense. But lofting can't be the only culprit to he visual wear lines. We see them on pure stock motors that shouldn't be able to float a valve due to RPM restrictions and mild cam lobes.

[eddiepoindexter]

What is the correct finish and steel properties for a camshaft to be compatible with the rollers?
What API grade, composition, and viscosity of oil would be optimum for use with these lifters?

I understand the explanation to rest of the proposed solutions.
Problem I have seen is excessive side thrust in the bores, evidence scratches on the lifter bodies after very low hours of use. I can't prove it but the noise is a strong evidence that the lifters are lofting and/or launching. So regardless of the brand or materials we are dealing with a similar part to the street mechanical roller used by the car guys, a maintenance item. The best of the lifters and the other items addressed, to the best of cost affordable reality, can extend the life but we still have to get in and check them. How often? I don't know.

Surface finish will vary. Most if not all manufactures will consider this information proprietary. As for material, 5150, 5120, 1040, 8620, 9310 along with some tool steels are all in use today. As for the oil, read up on some of the tech articles done by Lake Speed Jr. Very informative. I for one use Mobile1, a good oil cooler, and change it every 2000 miles. Yet to have a problem in many, many years.

I don't know either. Spring pressure, lobe, riding style will all come into play here making this a moving target. I can tell you the marine world is the harshest environment a hydraulic roller lifter will ever see. High valve train mass, 5800 RPM under load for hours at a time. Most high end marine engine builders change lifters out every 100 to 125 hours.

[kd]

 Don't see a contradiction. Should have been more specific, lubrication failure attributed to a chemical breakdown of the boundary layer of the lubricant.


Max
[/quote]

The boundary layer is close to microscopic, it's filling in the peaks and valleys of the material. The "flow" in front of the wheel is carrying away most of the heat. When the layer breaks down due to heat, contaminants etc., it stops filling in those peaks and valleys.
[/quote]


I don't want to start an oil thread here,  but would the features in synthetic oil (attraction to heat and shear qualities) be a good choice to combating the problems with the boundary layer collapsing?

Added later,

Eddie,

I see you use a synthetic oil. Does that answer my question about your opinion on oil choices (going synthetic)?

[BUBBIE]

Monsoons back today and tonight so decided to change 1023 gatermans out.

With the New "B"s in, started bike in garage NO Unnecessary noise, No tap... Just that sweet sewing-machine sound. I'll find out tomorrow IF they are a little quieter than the 1023's.

Figured out, 27,000 miles on the 1023 gatermans I Had in...  Yes there was Just a little tap Starting toward the front. (thinking intake)

Looking at them Out, they looked good and much better than in the crummy pictures I took earlier 2,000 miles ago...

Funny NO stains just the Faint lines on them now... NOT like in the picture I took on Sept 17th... (if below attached?)

Can't feel anything Wrong with them... Rollers roll good and no slack/play in the bearings?  (imagination reading here??)

signed....BUBBIE

EDDIE,

Maybe you can look at some foggy pictures of Stain issues? on my Gaterman 1023's using Redline 20w50 max 4,000 mile oil changes HD filters then now using K&N 171 C's..... Never Ever any metal on the magnetic drain plug... About 31,000 miles on them, New cam SE255 103" build all at one time.
What can you see and thank you for your Valued Informative information you have given here...

I Guess, you'll have to go back to page 20 and post #484 to see the pictures, they never came up with the link above...
Above is page 20 post 484...

signed....BUBBIE

[eddiepoindexter]

The boundary layer is close to microscopic, it's filling in the peaks and valleys of the material. The "flow" in front of the wheel is carrying away most of the heat. When the layer breaks down due to heat, contaminants etc., it stops filling in those peaks and valleys.

A visual indication of lofting will be lines in the wheel running in the same direction of rotation. Think airplane wheel touching the ground on landing. Problem is contaminants in the average street engine will cause the same wear so it's hard to determine. In a race engine much easier.

I can understand the lofting causing visual wear marks, makes sense. But lofting can't be the only culprit to he visual wear lines. We see them on pure stock motors that shouldn't be able to float a valve due to RPM restrictions and mild cam lobes.

It's not the only culprit. Most common cause is debris in the oil. And what's going on with that mild lobe would probably surprise you. If you take two lobes in the same "family" one in say, 260° @ .050" and one at 220° @ .050", the shorter duration lobe will in most, but not all cases be harsher on the valve train.

[q1svt]

Like to see .0015" / .0025" lifter to lifter bore clearance depending on lifter bore material, so I would think .003" / .004" lifter to pin would be the target.

As for side loading, even the above average engine builder won't be able to get rid of it. Engine architecture, and if nothing else, cost would make this prohibitive. First of all you would need to index the lifter bores so they are perfectly 90° to the centerline of the cams. Once you accomplished this you would need to address pushrod angle along with the rest of the valve train geometry. While in theory this could all be fixed you're pretty much designing and building a different engine at that point. Again, too cost prohibitive.

Sorry, yes I understand your comment

I was trying to get a better understanding.  American V8's use several means to aid a lifter from over rotating (Dog bones, H bars, link bar, slotted lifter/lifter bores.  HD uses a round pin, I have collected info that there can be .008 play allowing the lifter to rotate side to side quite a bit.

So, let me reword my question: Is there a standard as to the an allowable tolerance with the use of Dog bones, H bars, link bar, slotted lifter/lifter bores to allow the lifter to rotate/shift to accommodate alignment/machining inaccuracies? What point might be too much?

TIA

[eddiepoindexter]

Monsoons back today and tonight so decided to change 1023 gatermans out.

With the New "B"s in, started bike in garage NO Unnecessary noise, No tap... Just that sweet sewing-machine sound. I'll find out tomorrow IF they are a little quieter than the 1023's.

Figured out, 27,000 miles on the 1023 gatermans I Had in...  Yes there was Just a little tap Starting toward the front. (thinking intake)

Looking at them Out, they looked good and much better than in the crummy pictures I took earlier 2,000 miles ago...

Funny NO stains just the Faint lines on them now... NOT like in the picture I took on Sept 17th... (if below attached?)

Can't feel anything Wrong with them... Rollers roll good and no slack/play in the bearings?  (imagination reading here??)

signed....BUBBIE

EDDIE,

Maybe you can look at some foggy pictures of Stain issues? on my Gaterman 1023's using Redline 20w50 max 4,000 mile oil changes HD filters then now using K&N 171 C's..... Never Ever any metal on the magnetic drain plug... About 31,000 miles on them, New cam SE255 103" build all at one time.
What can you see and thank you for your Valued Informative information you have given here...

I Guess, you'll have to go back to page 20 and post #484 to see the pictures, they never came up with the link above...
Above is page 20 post 484...

signed....BUBBIE

Between my tired old eyes and those out of focus pictures it's hard to say.

[BUBBIE]

Nothing you can Feel on the rollers but the Color of them... using 20/50 Redline oil..

I re-installed the two in picture and put on about 2000 miles using a new oil 10w60 Moly.

When re-taken out to be replaced by "B"s....... the  rollers Didn't have that Color Stain on them.?

signed....BUBBIE

[eddiepoindexter]

Don't see a contradiction. Should have been more specific, lubrication failure attributed to a chemical breakdown of the boundary layer of the lubricant.


Max

The boundary layer is close to microscopic, it's filling in the peaks and valleys of the material. The "flow" in front of the wheel is carrying away most of the heat. When the layer breaks down due to heat, contaminants etc., it stops filling in those peaks and valleys.
[/quote]


I don't want to start an oil thread here,  but would the features in synthetic oil (attraction to heat and shear qualities) be a good choice to combating the problems with the boundary layer collapsing?

Added later,

Eddie,

I see you use a synthetic oil. Does that answer my question about your opinion on oil choices (going synthetic)?
[/quote]

Ha ha, I've been trying to avoid the short answer to this. The leading cause of the failure that started this post is...

Oil.

You have to do two things. Keep the oil clean. Don't overheat it. For the second you have two choices. Closely control the oil temperature, which isn't a viable solution, or use a oil that's better suited to the heat range of the system. A synthetic or semi-synthetic is better suited for the latter.

[No Cents]

so eddiepoindexter...where do you...or did you work at?
You seem like a very smart man and have a lot of knowledge in the area of valve trains and how oil affects it.
I'm just curious...and I see you met our Max   

Ray

[eddiepoindexter]

Like to see .0015" / .0025" lifter to lifter bore clearance depending on lifter bore material, so I would think .003" / .004" lifter to pin would be the target.

As for side loading, even the above average engine builder won't be able to get rid of it. Engine architecture, and if nothing else, cost would make this prohibitive. First of all you would need to index the lifter bores so they are perfectly 90° to the centerline of the cams. Once you accomplished this you would need to address pushrod angle along with the rest of the valve train geometry. While in theory this could all be fixed you're pretty much designing and building a different engine at that point. Again, too cost prohibitive.

Sorry, yes I understand your comment

I was trying to get a better understanding.  American V8's use several means to aid a lifter from over rotating (Dog bones, H bars, link bar, slotted lifter/lifter bores.  HD uses a round pin, I have collected info that there can be .008 play allowing the lifter to rotate side to side quite a bit.

So, let me reword my question: Is there a standard as to the an allowable tolerance with the use of Dog bones, H bars, link bar, slotted lifter/lifter bores to allow the lifter to rotate/shift to accommodate alignment/machining inaccuracies? What point might be too much?

TIA

No. Less is better. Seriously, I know of no such standard. Late model GM LS based engines for instance use a lifter "tray" made from a composite material and the lifter is a tight fit in this tray. When new you can remove spring pressure and rotate the engine and the lifter will stay "up" in the tray. In some applications with offset pushrod seats/high pushrod angularity you may find a lot with a link bar style lifter to keep it from breaking the bar. The keyway style lifters tend to be tight. My point is it's all over the place. Someone, somewhere has probably tested this, or done the math to figure it out, but not at this level.

As the tolerance stack of the assembly is going to be different with every engine, in a perfect world this number would be different for every build.

[eddiepoindexter]

so eddiepointdexter...where do you...or did you work at?
You seem like a very smart man and have a lot of knowledge in the area of valve trains and how oil affects it.
I'm just curious...and I see you met our Max   

Ray

I know it won't help my credibility, but unfortunately I would rather not say. And as for my knowledge in this area, you could put it all into a thimble as compared to some. Realize you have NASCAR teams that have dedicated SpinTrons doing oil tests and based on the data from these tests, they have there own oil blended. Temperature is the key here. The reason they're always removing tape, adding tape is to control that temperature. With the materials used in today's components and the advent of MLS head gaskets, you can run those engines without water for a long time as long as the oil isn't overheated. Even with water temperatures at normal, if you run the oil outside it's intended temperature range they fail real fast.

[No Cents]

 no problem...I could tell you have been involved with testing in these areas from your 1st post.
Well...if you could make a lifter that would hold up to the twin cam abuse...you just may have found your get rich quick scheme.

Ray

[q1svt]

eddiepointdexter, I guessing that you are associated with a cam company that if so I've purchased many products from  .

So here is a question that comes up here a lot.  car companies use lifters in motors that are generally set for about 60# oil pressure, performance upgrades generally include a higher output oil pump increasing the oil pressure in the 70-80# range.

HD oil pressure range from 0-10# at hot idle, and because of the pop-off valve at about 40# at rpm on a stock motor.

The question is what affect if any is there running an aftermarket lifter designed for a performance auto 70-80# oil pressure, in a HD motor with stock pressure? and or increased pressure of 55-60#

TIA

[clawdog60]

If the surface has zero "skidding" then how does wear occur?

Heat,pressure and some friction even if minute.

[eddiepoindexter]

eddiepointdexter, I guessing that you are associated with a cam company that if so I've purchased many products from  .

So here is a question that comes up here a lot.  car companies use lifters in motors that are generally set for about 60# oil pressure, performance upgrades generally include a higher output oil pump increasing the oil pressure in the 70-80# range.

HD oil pressure range from 0-10# at hot idle, and because of the pop-off valve at about 40# at rpm on a stock motor.

The question is what affect if any is there running an aftermarket lifter designed for a performance auto 70-80# oil pressure, in a HD motor with stock pressure? and or increased pressure of 55-60#

TIA

As much as I would like to answer this question and open a discussion on the internal pieces of these lifters, I can't. Sorry.

[rbabos]

Interesting read on oil temp, surface finish and boundary layer but there's still one inherent problem with the big twins. Take the worlds best lifter and shove it into a bore with .0025 clearance and you are still going to have issues. .0025 could be the good part of the bore and the bottom thrust area could be worn much more then that.  That area needs to be addressed first.
Ron

[06roadglide]

Interesting read on oil temp, surface finish and boundary layer but there's still one inherent problem with the big twins. Take the worlds best lifter and shove it into a bore with .0025 clearance and you are still going to have issues. .0025 could be the good part of the bore and the bottom thrust area could be worn much more then that.  That area needs to be addressed first.
Ron

What do you think that clearance is when up to temp?  If you're seeing .0025" on cool parts I'm betting it gets much worse at operating temp.

[rbabos]

Interesting read on oil temp, surface finish and boundary layer but there's still one inherent problem with the big twins. Take the worlds best lifter and shove it into a bore with .0025 clearance and you are still going to have issues. .0025 could be the good part of the bore and the bottom thrust area could be worn much more then that.  That area needs to be addressed first.
Ron

What do you think that clearance is when up to temp?  If you're seeing .0025" on cool parts I'm betting it gets much worse at operating temp.

Absolutely. Alum expands more then the steel lifter body. There are two normal clearance specs for bores and lifters depending on alum or iron. .002 which is common for the big twin isn't in that spec.
Ron

[06roadglide]

Interesting read on oil temp, surface finish and boundary layer but there's still one inherent problem with the big twins. Take the worlds best lifter and shove it into a bore with .0025 clearance and you are still going to have issues. .0025 could be the good part of the bore and the bottom thrust area could be worn much more then that.  That area needs to be addressed first.
Ron

What do you think that clearance is when up to temp?  If you're seeing .0025" on cool parts I'm betting it gets much worse at operating temp.

Absolutely. Alum expands more then the steel lifter body. There are two normal clearance specs for bores and lifters depending on alum or iron. .002 which is common for the big twin isn't in that spec.
Ron

I tried measuring mine years ago when I did the 117 build but my gauge just wasn't very trust worthy. Not to mention the bores just LOOKED horrible visually but they felt fine. 

[clawdog60]

Should we forget the rollers and just go back to flat tappets and live with hp losses? Or have the parts cryod?

[clawdog60]

Like to see .0015" / .0025" lifter to lifter bore clearance depending on lifter bore material, so I would think .003" / .004" lifter to pin would be the target.

As for side loading, even the above average engine builder won't be able to get rid of it. Engine architecture, and if nothing else, cost would make this prohibitive. First of all you would need to index the lifter bores so they are perfectly 90° to the centerline of the cams. Once you accomplished this you would need to address pushrod angle along with the rest of the valve train geometry. While in theory this could all be fixed you're pretty much designing and building a different engine at that point. Again, too cost prohibitive.

Sorry, yes I understand your comment

I was trying to get a better understanding.  American V8's use several means to aid a lifter from over rotating (Dog bones, H bars, link bar, slotted lifter/lifter bores.  HD uses a round pin, I have collected info that there can be .008 play allowing the lifter to rotate side to side quite a bit.

So, let me reword my question: Is there a standard as to the an allowable tolerance with the use of Dog bones, H bars, link bar, slotted lifter/lifter bores to allow the lifter to rotate/shift to accommodate alignment/machining inaccuracies? What point might be too much?

TIA

No. Less is better. Seriously, I know of no such standard. Late model GM LS based engines for instance use a lifter "tray" made from a composite material and the lifter is a tight fit in this tray. When new you can remove spring pressure and rotate the engine and the lifter will stay "up" in the tray. In some applications with offset pushrod seats/high pushrod angularity you may find a lot with a link bar style lifter to keep it from breaking the bar. The keyway style lifters tend to be tight. My point is it's all over the place. Someone, somewhere has probably tested this, or done the math to figure it out, but not at this level.

As the tolerance stack of the assembly is going to be different with every engine, in a perfect world this number would be different for every build.

While on this AR pin subject I wanted to add about the end to end clearance, changed mine to .001", stock pins were near 1/8th"

[q1svt]

" end to end clearance"

what is that?   Zippers procedure is to measure clearance between the al pin and the center of case riser...

[clawdog60]

clearance at one end of the pin or other end, doesn't matter which side, to the case boss.

[q1svt]

I guess you can develop your own process to check...

I have been looking for blueprint specifications on HD Vtwins for a couple of years and have only found one printed document... and many shops like Basiley HP, when asked, state they use Zippers procedure and clearances.