Sert vs PC 5 vs Thundermax?

[hotroadking]

Just got my 09 RG

Thinking about a tuning device

I've done plenty of SERT modifications to map/ve with the Daytona Twin Scan

Has anyone dealt with the PC 5? wonder if  it works with the DTS twin scan 3

They have an autotune, device similar to thundermax
Wonder how it would compare to say the Thundermax with autotune.

Hate to be the first guy on the block with something

[Steve Cole]

The SERT is no longer made and will not cover the 2009 model year. That product was ours and was private labeled through HD. The replacement for it is call Mastertune and it will do the auto tune for you with no add-on devices. If you know how to use the SERT then you already know how to use Mastertune. Do a few searches and you can find plenty of information on Mastertune.

[sportygordy]

Make sure you understand that MasterTune does not auto tune where most prefer below 14.1 AFR because they use the stock narrow band sensors vs. a quality Bosch type wide band sensor. If you are good with this then MasterTune is a good product. If you are going to build a HP motor and you want to maintain a cooler running motor at or around 13.5 AFR, then the only kid on the block (for TBW versions) at this time is Thundermax. Many, including myself resort to MasterTune and DTT Twin Scan in combo. This is not an autotune, it is a manual process. Twin Scan allows you to record data runs then you analyze and tune based on input from Twin Scan. There is a nonstop learning curve involved but i does work well. 

[Steve Cole]

Sportgordy

It seems you do not understand Mastertune and V-tune very well and the cheap Bosch sensor. Mastertune only uses the OEM switching sensors to calibrate the VE tables in the range that these sensors work in. Once the VE is properly calibrated you can adjust the system for what ever AFR you want but you can only run closed loop within the range of the sensor. There is no reason to run at 13.5 for normal operation that's too rich and with a properly tuned setup 14.4 - 14.2 will make more power and better fuel economy.

Now for the comment on the Bosch sensor, your way off base. The Bosch sensor used by most all the aftermarket kits (including Tmax) is a cheap sensor and it has a very limited range. If you search here on this very site there is a link to the Bosch specification sheet for the sensor. It has an AFR limit of +/- 0.5 AFR and that is only one of the issues with it. It also has a vibration issue and a heat issue which can make that specification much worse. So the manufacture of the sensor says it cannot measure any better than +/- 0.5 how can you tell if the mixture is 13.5 or 14.5? The tolerance of the sensor allows for that much range. The truth is you cannot control it this well for long periods of time, as the sensors seem to only last for 60 - 100 hours of use in our testing as well as testing by several independent dyno facility's. DynoJet has a test kit just for testing the sensor so people know when to replace them. Now you think that they would have made a test kit if it was something that the operators did not need to check/control? The Bosch sensor is a tool just like any other tool and when used properly and within its limits they work well.

[sportygordy]

Hey there Steve,

I understand closed loop and open loop operation regardless if it is Mastertune, SERT, Daytona Twin Tec TCFI or Thundermax. I also understand the difference between wide band and narrow band sensing. I agree 13.5 AFR is to rich for normal operation, this is why many of us prefer to use an auto tune with wide band sensing.  Wide band auto tune allows us maintain a predetermined set of AFR tables below 14.1 with auto changes based on load conditions. As you know, these new motors run HOT because Mr. EPA requires a lean condition above 14.1 and the only way to effectively cool them down is to run them a bit rich, somewhere between 13.5 and 14.0 seems to work for most people, anything above 14.1 keeps the EPA happy and the motor HOT.  I've heard you here and in other forums bash the quality of the Bosch sensors and i disagree with you. I also disagree with your 'exaggerated' limit's of operation for these sensors. I've never seen the range of fluctuation you state in real life situations. In fact I have witnessed 'spot on' AFR readings when comparing a Twin Scan recording against a Palm Pilot viewer during the same tuning cycle. Now when you state Bosch sensor's is a cheap sensor, tell me why many auto manufactures depend on them to maintain proper operation in our cars we drive daily with many thousands of miles and hours logged. I guess when you compare them against a $1000.00 lab sensors then the $100.00 Bosch is a 'cheap' sensor. When was the last time you ran out and changed the 02 sensors in your car? I bet you never have done such a thing.. Daytona Twin Tec also has a test circuit to check if the sensors are operating correctly and so does TMax. I had to replace only one since using them starting back in 2005 and it was due to vibration, which was caused by  a set of Reinhardt True dual header exhaust vibrating against the oil cooler mount and the sensor.  The rear sensor is still working fine, and i would bet i have well over 100 hours on that darn thing.

Now that TMax has a wide band auto tune product for throttle-by-wire bikes many of us will go that direction. I plan to, but i'm not really excited of spending $1000.00 at this time, but when i do, I'll make sure to keep up with my sensor maintenance.

[Steve Cole]

Disagree all you want but the specifications are what they are. I did not make them up, nor have I bashed them at all! My comments come straight from the Bosch documents. The real life test we have done is from our testing but has been backed up by independent dyno operators test as well. The simple fact is the aftermarket has tried to over sell what these sensors can do, not the sensor manufacture, they spell it out pretty clearly in there documents.

You say you witnessed spot on AFR with these sensors and what did you compare them too? You would have needed a lab style system that you could have tested against and I'm sorry but those do not come on a Palm Pilot. There is not one auto manufacture that depends on them to maintain proper operation in our cars, they are used in a backup role. As a matter of fact they can fail and the car will still meet the emissions requirements! The main control is done by a good old switching sensor. If as you say and the aftermarket units have tried to say that you can auto tune why then would not each and every auto manufacture be doing it already? Why would not one race team be doing it? The answer is simple and that is it does not work and remain reliable over the life needed in the auto industry nor the racing industry.

I said it before and I will say it again these "cheap" sensors when used by the manufactures specifications not the aftermarkets are a good tool.

[sportygordy]

Disagree all you want but the specifications are what they are. I did not make them up, nor have I bashed them at all! My comments come straight from the Bosch documents. The real life test we have done is from our testing but has been backed up by independent dyno operators test as well. The simple fact is the aftermarket has tried to over sell what these sensors can do, not the sensor manufacture, they spell it out pretty clearly in there documents.

You say you witnessed spot on AFR with these sensors and what did you compare them too? You would have needed a lab style system that you could have tested against and I'm sorry but those do not come on a Palm Pilot. There is not one auto manufacture that depends on them to maintain proper operation in our cars, they are used in a backup role. As a matter of fact they can fail and the car will still meet the emissions requirements! The main control is done by a good old switching sensor. If as you say and the aftermarket units have tried to say that you can auto tune why then would not each and every auto manufacture be doing it already? Why would not one race team be doing it? The answer is simple and that is it does not work and remain reliable over the life needed in the auto industry nor the racing industry.

I said it before and I will say it again these "cheap" sensors when used by the manufactures specifications not the aftermarkets are a good tool.

Steve,

Do a Google search on Bosch LSU4.2 5-wire sensors and you'll be overwhelmed with the number of auto manufactures using these sensors. And besides, the specifications you noted ain't bad anyway, plain and simply not worth an argument, They are very acceptable,  highly accurate  over 10.3 - 19.5 AFR range, very close to lab requirements. Nuff said about junk Bosh sensors, I think we agree they will do the job intended. - Thank you.

Steve, there is a big difference over what you and i agree on as far as optimum AFR operating ranges. The following is what is very common and what most of us strive for.

Cold Start (first 30 sec) 11.5-12.5

Idle 12.8-13.5

Part Throttle Cruise 13.0-14.0

Wide Open Throttle 12.5-12.8

I understand one could get close and maintain these limits with an open loop tune, however given a choice and a budget to allow it, I personally prefer my ignition to auto/maintain these limits in a closed loop world. And, my original point was to make sure readers are aware Master Tune is NOT capable of maintaining these prefred limits in closed loop.  You and I could argue  until we're both blue in the face, but the point is (and you can reference to my original post), Narrow band and the current Master Tune will not auto tune within said preferred limits.
Now that is my point!!!!

Sorry that i got outside the box in this topic

[hotroadking]

Guys great discussion, but it's a bit off my topic now go start your own thead on the plus and minus of narrow band to wide band sensors vs taking over my post LOL

I'll look at mastertune but for now it's either the Tmax or PC5, as far as SERT I was under the impression that you can get a sert load and then buy the cd to work with it.

I have the twin scan system from Daytona and have tuned several EFI bikes with it, all are running very well and have good mileage, cooler running. Owners are happy so if necesary I can use the Daytona Twin Scan to obtain data and set VE's and AFR... So I don't see the need for a new tuning system unless the PC5 won't work with my twin scan unit

[Steve Cole]

No I do not agree with you at all and that's fine. I just wish you would really go find out the truth before you make the claims that the auto manufactures use these sensors for tuning the vehicle because they do not, and that is my point. They are used as backup sensor to make sure the catalytic converter is functioning properly! That is a far cry from being relied upon for running the engine. You've bought into the hype from the aftermarket! The sensor will work in a narrow test area under very specific conditions. Those conditions are not what they will be exposed to on a engine for daily usage.

Sorry for the derail of the thread but people need to learn and understand what these sensors are and what they are used for in the real world.

[Hillside Motorcycle]

Steve,
Check your PM box.
Scott

[mayor]

The following is what is very common and what most of us strive for.

Cold Start (first 30 sec) 11.5-12.5

Idle 12.8-13.5

Part Throttle Cruise 13.0-14.0

Wide Open Throttle 12.5-12.8

those numbers look rich to me...

[Scramjet]

Cold Start (first 30 sec) 11.5-12.5

Idle 12.8-13.5

Part Throttle Cruise 13.0-14.0

Wide Open Throttle 12.5-12.8

Yup, they look rich to me too.

Idle = 13.5 to 14.6 depending on how much "parade duty" type conditons are expected
For idle in NE Ohio mainly rural riding I like 14.4 - in Phoenix I would like 13.5

Part throttle cruise = 14.1 to 14.6 for fuel economy on the Interstate

High throttle = 14.1 down to 13.5 as throttle increases

WOT = 13.3 to 13.5 then down to 12.5 over time (PE AFR table)

B

[FLTRI]

Steve, you got PM mail.

[Herko]

"The following is what is very common and what most of us strive for.

Cold Start (first 30 sec) 11.5-12.5

Idle 12.8-13.5

Part Throttle Cruise 13.0-14.0

Wide Open Throttle 12.5-12.8"

Looks like these are rich and not what I tune for in most applications.
If you actually measure(d) these AFR's, and they produce(d) smooth running, good power and good fuel economy, might want to check the calibration of your Bosch sensor in the ranges you described. I've found that these sensors can check good during a free air check (cal) but be off on a significant curve the richer you go from stoich.

[TXP]

Steve is spot on with this info. We have to change the "wideband" dyno sensors at regular intervals. The DTT WEGO set up allows for "free air calibration" to keep the readings within there best range. The wide bands are heated sensors. The narrow bands produce there own voltage via chemical reaction once the sensor reaches a specified temerature. They last longer and are more reliable. The MasterTune is for a speed density system. If your VE tables are done correctly your afr will always be close to the commanded afr whether you are in closed loop or not. The Tmax is an Alpha N system and most tuners will not let the system run with full "autotune" capablity. It is set up as close as possible on the Dyno and locked into a 5-10 percent autotune so as the sensor degrades the base tune doen't run way off base.

[Steve Cole]

People this debate is going to go on and on but I want to make sure and point out that the sensors when used within the specifications the manufacture (Bosch) spells out will do what they say. The aftermarket people have been telling you all the wrong information about the sensor so all I am trying to do is let you see it for yourself. Look around the boards to the people that have found there bike running richer and richer as time goes on, it is to be expected as the sensor ages! Too many dyno operators have learned the hard way and are now purchasing equipment to check these sensors so that they know what they see is real not just numbers on a screen. The Aftermarket ECM's have no way to measure this information by itself. There is no built in test that can measure it. So as people are learning they are taking the self learn ability away from the ECM so as to limit what it can do which means it is no better than the stock HD ECM. This same thing happened in the automotive industry about 10 years ago and everyone learned the limits back then, looks like the motorcycle world is just going to repeat the learning curve again. If you do a Goggle search on the sensor and read the boards of automotive applications that have used and learned you do not have to repeat the same mistakes over again.

[Vosselman]

I agree with Steve,

The wideband sensors need to be checked and replaced regularly.
And even if the controller thinks the sensor is good, does not mean it is.
Even free air calibration does not make it any better if the sensor is old/aged.

Just my personal opinion, from my personal experience on running a dyno with bosch wideband sensors.

[mtnmotorrider]

Are Steve and Bob related?   

[nc-renegade]

Sportgordy


Now for the comment on the Bosch sensor, your way off base. The Bosch sensor used by most all the aftermarket kits (including Tmax) is a cheap sensor and it has a very limited range.

Hi Steve, I think it is interesting that this same cheap sensor is used on DynoJets for their measurments.  Though, I do agree that these sensors do age and that is certainly something you must consider when using these systems; they do have their place and the systems that use them are not the disaster in wait that a lot of folks preach.

[FLTRI]

Are Steve and Bob related? 

Only in experience, although after getting to know Steve in the last few years it feels as though we may have been related to each other in another life. LOL!

We both have many years in the industry working in and around these systems. We both have racing backgrounds where these systems are tested in environments where heat and vibration is prevalent.

It just so happens our beloved Harleys virtually mimic these environments.

I can tell you these less expensive O2 sensors last a lot longer in a dyno environment, divorced form heat and vibration, than mounted into head pipes that are subject to exterior heat, especially sitting in traffic for extended time, and excessive vibration that rival those of any racing engine compartment.

The choice to listen, learn, and ask for help is certainly here and available from some that really care to educate and share their findings and experiences with those who may not have had the opportunities to do so.

Respectfully,
Bob Lobenberg

[nc-renegade]

I replaced both my wideband O2 sensors recently.  The front one was responding lean, when in fact the T-Max was driving it rich.  I replaced the front one with a borrowed sensor until my new ones arrived.  What was interesting was the slower response of the rear (older one) versus the newer borrowed one.  Since I can monitor the AFR in real-time with my speedometer, it made the comparison easy.

I believe if you are going to run wideband O2 sensors, then perhaps a 20k mile change out is appropriate.  With the cost at $50 per sensor, this really is not that big of deal.

The key with the T-max is after the map is tuned (either through dyno tuning or really running it through it's paces on the the road) then lock down the base map as much as possible by limiting the tuning range that is acceptable.  If you then change a component, you can open up the percent of change at that time.

Just like any tunable system, you got to pay attention to the details if you want a trouble free system.

[FLTRI]

then lock down the base map as much as possible by limiting the tuning range that is acceptable.

In that case, where's the downside to simply putting the system into open loop and removing the sensors until the next change? No worries for misreading AFR and you would be saving the sensors from harmful environmental punishment.
Bob
PS- The above recommendation is exactly what most racing teams do as SOP.

[mtnmotorrider]

I only respectfully meant that you both share a similar degree of passion in your technical lectures.  So, can a guy who is fairly competent in the use and theory of the alpha N style (TMAX) ECM become proficient in the use and tuning of the Mastertune without the use of a dyno?  You see, I don't have that luxury readily available to me.  And the dyno's that are available 120 to 150 miles away do not have experienced SERT/Mastertune operators behind them.  I believe both of you that the systems you tout are superior to the alpha N systems but can I learn to use one on my own?

Respecfully,

Mountain Motor Rider

[FLTRI]

I only respectfully meant that you both share a similar degree of passion in your technical lectures.  So, can a guy who is fairly competent in the use and theory of the alpha N style (TMAX) ECM become proficient in the use and tuning of the Mastertune without the use of a dyno?  You see, I don't have that luxury readily available to me.  And the dyno's that are available 120 to 150 miles away do not have experienced SERT/Mastertune operators behind them.  I believe both of you that the systems you tout are superior to the alpha N systems but can I learn to use one on my own?

Respecfully,

Mountain Motor Rider

Do you have an 07-up OEM closed loop bike?

[Scramjet]

I only respectfully meant that you both share a similar degree of passion in your technical lectures.  So, can a guy who is fairly competent in the use and theory of the alpha N style (TMAX) ECM become proficient in the use and tuning of the Mastertune without the use of a dyno?  You see, I don't have that luxury readily available to me.  And the dyno's that are available 120 to 150 miles away do not have experienced SERT/Mastertune operators behind them.  I believe both of you that the systems you tout are superior to the alpha N systems but can I learn to use one on my own?

Respecfully,

Mountain Motor Rider

Not Bob, just another yahoo but if you have a closed loop bike...Even someone from Montana can do it.

B

P.S.  My family is from Missoula and I did it with good results.