Target tune closer to coming to market?

[07heri]

Confirm it's working, then unmount the PV and throw it in the drawer.  You won't need it for a good long while. 

Hopefully.

I use it for RPM, and monitoring temp and volts.  Are you saying the PV won't be able to be used like this adfter TT is brought into the equation/

[hrdtail78]

Not afraid of closed loop....afraid of 14.6

14.6 is out dated.  That is what use to be stoichiometric.  With todays fuels.  Shooting for 14.2 cruise, 13.8 idle, and 13 best power doesn't work.  .977, 940, and .877 does work.

[tdkkart]

Not afraid of closed loop....afraid of 14.6

Why???
There's literally MILLIONS of 2 and 4 wheeled vehicles cruising down the roads every day in the 14.5-15.0 range with no ill effects whatsoever.
What are you afraid of??

[hdmanillac]

Yes but theses millions of vehicules are often water cooled...

[1FSTRK]

How many of them are running the head and engine temps seen in an air cooled Harley?
The ability to maintain 200F water temp is a real game changer when it come to compression, timing, and AFR.


hdmanillac
You beat me by seconds.

[joe_lyons]

    Dynojet just release it.

They are working on getting the closed loop version of the target Tune Auto Tune mode done. 

Depends on which market I guess.  For guys wanting full time closed loop with the widebands then yes it is probably fine but for me using it as a tool on the dyno to tune multiple bikes using the autotune/target tune mode then it looks like I will be a Beta tester soon. 

I thought the market was for full time closed loop? 

The rest that you are looking for as a pro.  Can be found in the HD06 with analog inputs.

Maybe I'll get one of those green dongles someday but when I have what I need its hard to spend more money on just extras.

[tdkkart]

Yes but theses millions of vehicules are often water cooled...

Several hundred thousand, if not millions of them are Harley Davidson Twin Cam powered bikes ridden by owners
completely oblivious to the "problems" those of us on forums wring our hands over every day.

Pick a problem, any problem, cam chain tensioners, lifters, valve seals, valve guides, compensators etc etc and I can show you 10 owners who
haven't a clue what we're talking about.

My 110" CVO RGU runs happy as a clam all day long at 14.5, closed loop, 450lbs of passengers +gear, at 90* ambient on 91 octane fuel.
Coming up on it's 5000mi oil change and hasn't lost a single drop of oil since it's 1000mi service.

[GregOn2Wheels]

Yes but theses millions of vehicules are often water cooled...

Several hundred thousand, if not millions of them are Harley Davidson Twin Cam powered bikes ridden by owners
completely oblivious to the "problems" those of us on forums wring our hands over every day.

Pick a problem, any problem, cam chain tensioners, lifters, valve seals, valve guides, compensators etc etc and I can show you 10 owners who
haven't a clue what we're talking about.

My 110" CVO RGU runs happy as a clam all day long at 14.5, closed loop, 450lbs of passengers +gear, at 90* ambient on 91 octane fuel.
Coming up on it's 5000mi oil change and hasn't lost a single drop of oil since it's 1000mi service.

Ignorance is indeed bliss.  My problem is that I am ever so slightly above ignorant and once one knows some of these things, they're hard to forget. It's a curse I tell ya!

[hrdtail78]

    Dynojet just release it.

They are working on getting the closed loop version of the target Tune Auto Tune mode done. 

Depends on which market I guess.  For guys wanting full time closed loop with the widebands then yes it is probably fine but for me using it as a tool on the dyno to tune multiple bikes using the autotune/target tune mode then it looks like I will be a Beta tester soon. 

I thought the market was for full time closed loop? 

The rest that you are looking for as a pro.  Can be found in the HD06 with analog inputs.

Maybe I'll get one of those green dongles someday but when I have what I need its hard to spend more money on just extras.

Depends what you consider an extra.  At one time.  We ran tubes up the exhaust and hand mapped VE tables.  Something to map these VE tables was an extra.  O2 blocks for better sampling were extras.  Look at the tables we had available back in 09 compared to the extra tables we have today.  Now we don't look back.  It is the extras that has allowed us to step up our game.  If we can tune with a single sensor and hand mapping VE's?  Isn't target tune an extra? 

Bottom line is target tune is released to the public, but it doesn't do closed loop with WB's with the stock ECM.  The big selling point of this system to some.  What is the point of releasing it?  To say it's released?  Typical DJ marketing.

[joe_lyons]

It does do closed loop with widebands and the stock ECM.  I pointed that out.  I just said that the autotune part of it is not closed loop.  There is a difference.  Read closely. 

I have the target tune module already is what I was talking about.

[hrdtail78]

They are working on getting the closed loop version of the target Tune Auto Tune mode done. 

Statement that lead to my misunderstanding.

[Jamie Long]

Bottom line is target tune is released to the public, but it doesn't do closed loop with WB's with the stock ECM.  The big selling point of this system to some.  What is the point of releasing it?  To say it's released?  Typical DJ marketing.

Target Tune is closed loop with wideband O2's, thats the whole point of the product. The only time it is open loop is when you are using the TT-AT application to develop VE corrections. 

[hrdtail78]

Bottom line is target tune is released to the public, but it doesn't do closed loop with WB's with the stock ECM.  The big selling point of this system to some.  What is the point of releasing it?  To say it's released?  Typical DJ marketing.

Target Tune is closed loop with wideband O2's, thats the whole point of the product. The only time it is open loop is when you are using the TT-AT application to develop VE corrections.

To make things clear.  The system works as a closed loop WB ECM, but you can't map VE's with it.  There has been some mix info on this.  I was under the impression in order for this to work.  The VE's need to be mapped to the combo and then the WB will keep it in tune.  It wasn't just a plug and play that would pull everything in.  Things need to be close to start with.  Or atleast with in a certain tolorance.  Since it is using the same LT/STFT's as stock.  I'd say that tolorance is about 18%.  Just a guess.

So, for right now.  One needs to map VE's with AT-100's, stock NB or by hand.  Then take out the stock sesnors and put on the target tune to help keep the targeted AFR?

[hdmanillac]

but you can't map VE's with it

This question has been asked to DJ. Here is the answer:

"The best answer I can provide at this time would be to simply run an auto tune session using the Target Tune. Running auto tune with the Target Tune is different than the separate Auto Tune Pro accessory as the Target Tune auto tune will not alter your air to fuel ratio and will not pull timing, it will run whatever targets your fuel map is.

There is no longer a need to mess with auto tune basic (utilizing the factory narrow band sensors) nor would it be beneficial to hook up the auto tune pro accessory. Simply ride the bike with Target Tune installed and allow the trims to calculate automatically or you can dial in the base map utilizing the Target Tune auto tune mode."

[joe_lyons]

Using the target tune autotune would probably be better as it does not alter the timing or afr table like the other 2 modes. 

I can alter my closed loop integrator rich/lean range pretty much as much as I want.  For target tune it widens it out a bit more than stock.  Adaptive range can not be changed as of right now.

[Jamie Long]

Bottom line is target tune is released to the public, but it doesn't do closed loop with WB's with the stock ECM.  The big selling point of this system to some.  What is the point of releasing it?  To say it's released?  Typical DJ marketing.

Target Tune is closed loop with wideband O2's, thats the whole point of the product. The only time it is open loop is when you are using the TT-AT application to develop VE corrections.

To make things clear.  The system works as a closed loop WB ECM, but you can't map VE's with it.  There has been some mix info on this.  I was under the impression in order for this to work.  The VE's need to be mapped to the combo and then the WB will keep it in tune.  It wasn't just a plug and play that would pull everything in.  Things need to be close to start with.  Or atleast with in a certain tolorance.  Since it is using the same LT/STFT's as stock.  I'd say that tolorance is about 18%.  Just a guess.

So, for right now.  One needs to map VE's with AT-100's, stock NB or by hand,  Then take out the stock sesnors and put on the target tune to help keep the targeted AFR?

You do not need to use a AT-100, other sensors, or tune by hand. take out the sensors etc.. Once you install the Target Tune and flash a TT-enabled calibration you are ready to test and/or follow thru with the tuning process.

When you install the Target Tune module with a TT-enabled map it will be closed loop with the wb sensors. The initial state of tune will come down to the accuracy of the base map for a given combination, TT uses CLI/AFF however the closed loop tables are significantly different on the back end compared to a "standard" calibration, and most TT-enabled maps have in the range of +/- 40% fuel correction depending on the application. Yes, like anything else you need something in the ballpark to get started  but the system does have quite a bit of flexibility/adaptability. For VE tuning you would use the TT-AT application, this sets up various parameters in the tune for best data collection similar to AT-Pro, however it does not change the AF to 13.0 it uses whatever is in the AFR/Lambda table. After a TT-AT session you would export the corrections, flash the map and continue on in closed loop.

[FLTRI]

Not sure I understand this statement:
"Simply ride the bike with Target Tune installed and allow the trims to calculate automatically or you can dial in the base map utilizing the Target Tune auto tune mode."
Why would anyone opt to dial in the base map when theycan have TT calculate this automatically?
Bob

[Jamie Long]

Not sure I understand this statement:
"Simply ride the bike with Target Tune installed and allow the trims to calculate automatically or you can dial in the base map utilizing the Target Tune auto tune mode."
Why would anyone opt to dial in the base map when theycan have TT calculate this automatically?
Bob

Target Tune is closed loop, the ECM is applying corrections with closed loop multipliers both real time (CLI) and stored block learn (AFF). For VE correction you would utilize the TT-AT application which takes the +/- corrections and applies them directly back to the VE tables. As noted earlier the inital state of tune comes down the overall accuracy of the base map, for example if you have a basic stage 1 exhaust/intake setup and have a good base map it will be really close and Target Tune closed loop will do well for filling in the blanks and maintaining the AF targets written in the tune, if fine tuning is necessary you would run the TT-AT application. On the other end of the spectrum if you have a combination with big bore, cams, ect.. and you do not have just the right map it will require a fair amount or significant tuning just like anything else, however you now have another tool at your disposal and the big benefit with TT is that when you finish up the tune you can roll it out in closed loop with the same AF targets you developed the calibration to.

[q1svt]

Thanks Jamie and Joe, many here appreciate the effort you are putting into the communications and the information you are sharing...

[FLTRI]

Not sure I understand this statement:
"Simply ride the bike with Target Tune installed and allow the trims to calculate automatically or you can dial in the base map utilizing the Target Tune auto tune mode."
Why would anyone opt to dial in the base map when theycan have TT calculate this automatically?
Bob

Target Tune is closed loop, the ECM is applying corrections with closed loop multipliers both real time (CLI) and stored block learn (AFF). For VE correction you would utilize the TT-AT application which takes the +/- corrections and applies them directly back to the VE tables. As noted earlier the inital state of tune comes down the overall accuracy of the base map, for example if you have a basic stage 1 exhaust/intake setup and have a good base map it will be really close and Target Tune closed loop will do well for filling in the blanks and maintaining the AF targets written in the tune, if fine tuning is necessary you would run the TT-AT application. On the other end of the spectrum if you have a combination with big bore, cams, ect.. and you do not have just the right map it will require a fair amount or significant tuning just like anything else, however you now have another tool at your disposal and the big benefit with TT is that when you finish up the tune you can roll it out in closed loop with the same AF targets you developed the calibration to.

Thank you Jamie that cleared up my question.
Bob

[hrdtail78]

if fine tuning is necessary you would run the TT-AT application.

They are working on getting the closed loop version of the target Tune Auto Tune mode done. 

When they get that part of it done, right?  Thanks for the info all in one place.  I was tired of jumping through several topics trying to make sense.

[Jamie Long]

if fine tuning is necessary you would run the TT-AT application.

They are working on getting the closed loop version of the target Tune Auto Tune mode done. 

When they get that part of it done, right?  Thanks for the info all in one place.  I was tired of jumping through several topics trying to make sense.

The Target Tune-AT application referred to in my earlier posts is a active/current feature. The application joe_lyons brought up is something that will be likely developed and offered at a later date, this has not been officially announced.

 

[q1svt]

They are working on getting the closed loop version of the target Tune Auto Tune mode done. 

When they get that part of it done, right?  Thanks for the info all in one place.  I was tired of jumping through several topics trying to make sense.

Hardtail, Your repeating yourself...

It was asked and answered...

It does do closed loop with widebands and the stock ECM.  I pointed that out.  I just said that the autotune part of it is not closed loop.  There is a difference.  Read closely. 

I have the target tune module already is what I was talking about.

You clarified where you when off track before.

They are working on getting the closed loop version of the target Tune Auto Tune mode done. 

Statement that lead to my misunderstanding.

[Jamie Long]

To help clear up what Target Tune can/cannot do here is some of the information we originally posted:

Allows the factory ECM to interpret and use wideband O2 sensor signals*
User defined AFR/Lambda targets over a broad range
Target fuel table from PV calibration is achieved in real time
Retains OEM closed loop, adaptive fuel control strategy
Learns and uses VE table corrections as you ride
Target Tune enhanced Auto Tune app on PV device
Does NOT interfere with dealer diagnostic / service tools
Direct plug in OEM style connectors connect to factory O2 harness
Model specific applications for Harley Davidson closed loop models
Available as upgrade kit without O2 sensors for owners of Auto Tune Pro
Fits 2006 and newer Harley Davidson motorcycles**
* Requires Power Vision Target Tune specific calibration
** ECM must be "closed loop capable" and have OEM wiring for O2 sensor circuitry

[joe_lyons]

Sorry if I confused some people.