Target tune closer to coming to market?

[WI Bob]

Here is a pic of the screen with the bike idling. The motor was warm as I returned from a ride. But had been off for some time. So still in the enrichment mode when taken.
You can see how the new brains focus on the targeted AFR.
Side note, just ran about 200 miles and fueled at the same pump before and after. Recorded 47.5 MPG. This is the best this set up has ever done. Target at crusie is 14.2.

[joe_lyons]

Awesome

[rbabos]

Mossy78 is running one on his v rod in England now. Seems to work nice. Best it's run in like forever.
Ron

[Jamie Long]

Jamie, Joe and co ..... Jamie, I tried the Calibration you provided and behold! It worked. I sent you an email including a log with CLI and Adaptive fuel, as requested.
A work in progress, but significantly better.

Thank you for the update and log. Target Tune is working properly, it is building fuel corections both short term (CLI) and long term (AFF) and is running very close to the target AF, looks pretty darn good for an initial base map with no additional tuning.

In the first chart below you can see the relation of RPM/MAP vs actual AF front & rear from the wideband O2's.





In the second chart you can note RPM/MAP vs long term/stored corrections, in this example you can see the ECM is correcting a slightly rich mixture from 1750-2500 RPM's. The TT-Auto Tune application it would clean this right up.

[masstch]

Jamie, can you show us what a "cleaned up" version would look like?

I'm wondering what it looks like when you are "done".

[joe_lyons]

When cleaned up the AFF should be hovering close to 100.  So in the instance of the pics shown more green dots than any other color. 

[Jamie Long]

Jamie, can you show us what a "cleaned up" version would look like?

I'm wondering what it looks like when you are "done".

The following example was from a huge log from a very well tuned bike. Note front & rear AFF are within a few % of target

[masstch]

THAT is what I needed, exactly!
Suddenly it makes much more sense, now.
Thanks to this post, Jamie, (and others) i will be calling to order my own Target Tune.

[Sunny Jim]

Good stuff Jamie! I now gave a greater understanding !
Knowledge!

[whittlebeast]

Here is a log off one doing it's thing.  Near spot on...

http://www.nbs-stl.com/HarleyTuning/TargetTuneLog.png

This log recorded with the Power Vision and then was viewed with MegaLogViewerHD.  I wonder if this will totally obsolete everything else released to date?

Andy

[FLTRI]

I wonder if this will totally obsolete everything else released to date?

Andy

Obsoletes everything from past versions of MLV. 👍🏼
Bob

[hrdtail78]

Here is a log off one doing it's thing.  Near spot on...

http://www.nbs-stl.com/HarleyTuning/TargetTuneLog.png

This log recorded with the Power Vision and then was viewed with MegaLogViewerHD.  I wonder if this will totally obsolete everything else released to date?

Andy

The bottom graph shows a target of .979 with 1.018 and 1.008 as being actual.  What is your definition of spot on?

[whittlebeast]

Jason

I simply did not set all three Lambdas to the same scale.

Bob, the target tune stuff is finally getting the stock ECU to behave as designed by the manufacturer of the ECU originally.  My bet is Harley was trying to protect its dealers and the "tuning kingdom" they were running.  Tuners generally hate good self tuning SW.

Andy

[hrdtail78]

Jason

I simply did not set all three Lambdas to the same scale.

I see that the min are a bit different.  How does that affect what it is reading as long as it in scale?  Besides I am not looking at colors.  I am looking at what is being called out by the pointer only.  Post up the file and we can all take a look.  I have always posted what you have asked for, or email it to me.

[whittlebeast]

Bob, I play with all sorts of closed loop tuning software all the time.  Target Tune appears to simply work.....

The guy that sent me that log was also looking at the log with MLV.  He was pumped.

Andy

[azlou66]

I was at Nick Trasks' shop yesterday talking to his dyno guy, Ron I think his name was.
In his opinion the PV with TT does a very good job tuning a mild build.
Now he wouldn't put one on a turbo bike or a big inch high compression motor.

[rageglide]

I was at Nick Trasks' shop yesterday talking to his dyno guy, Ron I think his name was.
In his opinion the PV with TT does a very good job tuning a mild build.
Now he wouldn't put one on a turbo bike or a big inch high compression motor.

I presume you mean Trask/Ron wouldn't put the PV on a big inch high comp motor.  Vs using TTS.

IF TTS could come up with a better way to do the auto tune vs riding around with a laptop, maybe it would be in the same boat when it comes to AT?

I am in agreement that a big build is really is a different beast to deal with.  There are so many other factors other than VE tables to deal with.  AT doesn't touch on proper AFR, or power enrichment and enleanment.  Nor does it help deal with proper warm up.  Timing can be tweaked to some degrees, but it's limited to pulling timing vs adding where it makes sense.  Bob (FLTRI) may be a bit stubborn in his responses to AT stuff.  But I don't feel he's far off the mark.  He's just not a fan of the interaction with the PV...  His knowledge and tuning principles apply to any tuning product.  Preference is the human factor.

[Sunny Jim]

 I am struggling with the thought that this TT tuning method won't be satisfactory for bigger/ higher compression builds.
There are many self regulating types of closed loop tuning on motor vehicles with moderate to high compression on the planet, and they seem to cope. I am sure the parameters, methodology are similar at least.

Can someone perhaps explain why you thing this would be unsuitable?

[hrdtail78]

I don't think it has to do with cubic inch or exactly what the compression ratio is.  It has to do more with what else comes along with bigger builds.  The cams and the free flowing exhaust that is required not to choke down that top end HP.  Bigger flowing TB's and heads.  This can all lead to poor sampling of O2.

TT is based on the simple assumption that your sampling is perfect in all areas.  If that is the case.  TT should be able to hold a target/ desired lambda/AFR with in a tolerances.

[tdkkart]

 All Target Tune does is allows us to hang a better sensor on our ECMs that are more than capable of dealing with that information. No point in building a new ECM if you already have a very good one on the bike.
You still have to determine what you want or need your AFR to be, physical and dynamic factors will change what an engine wants, as will the quality of the data you are collecting. There's still the difference between what's actually happening in the cylinder and what the sensor is seeing. You can't simply set a desired AFR of 12.8 if the sensor's reading is off of reality by .5 one way or the other. I have no doubt that this will raise a whole new chapter in the O2 sensor positioning wars, primarily because people won't be able figure out that you may not be able to run the same (reported) AFR on your pipe "A" as your buddy runs on pipe "B" even if your engines are otherwise identical.

Is Target Tune AFR absolute?? Absolutely not, it's just another tool in the box.

[rbabos]

All Target Tune does is allows us to hang a better sensor on our ECMs that are more than capable of dealing with that information. No point in building a new ECM if you already have a very good one on the bike.
You still have to determine what you want or need your AFR to be, physical and dynamic factors will change what an engine wants, as will the quality of the data you are collecting. There's still the difference between what's actually happening in the cylinder and what the sensor is seeing. You can't simply set a desired AFR of 12.8 if the sensor's reading is off of reality by .5 one way or the other. I have no doubt that this will raise a whole new chapter in the O2 sensor positioning wars, primarily because people won't be able figure out that you may not be able to run the same (reported) AFR on your pipe "A" as your buddy runs on pipe "B" even if your engines are otherwise identical.

Is Target Tune AFR absolute?? Absolutely not, it's just another tool in the box.

I agree. The WB might make it closer due to better sampling it has, all else being equal. Some areas will just plain need open loop in some cases so the ve needs to be set somehow or the target changed.
Ron
Ron

[whittlebeast]

Here is two different back to back logs off the same motor.  The tune is identical on both logs.  The logger and o2 sensor was the only change.  The motor was running open loop in both logs.

http://www.nbs-stl.com/MLVDemo/330%20Two%20O2%20Sensors.PNG

Check out the difference in the reported AFR.  O2 sensors are different.

You can not directly compare your AFR to some other guys AFR.

Andy

[azlou66]

I was at Nick Trasks' shop yesterday talking to his dyno guy, Ron I think his name was.
In his opinion the PV with TT does a very good job tuning a mild build.
Now he wouldn't put one on a turbo bike or a big inch high compression motor.

I presume you mean Trask/Ron wouldn't put the PV on a big inch high comp motor.  Vs using TTS.

IF TTS could come up with a better way to do the auto tune vs riding around with a laptop, maybe it would be in the same boat when it comes to AT?

I am in agreement that a big build is really is a different beast to deal with.  There are so many other factors other than VE tables to deal with.  AT doesn't touch on proper AFR, or power enrichment and enleanment.  Nor does it help deal with proper warm up.  Timing can be tweaked to some degrees, but it's limited to pulling timing vs adding where it makes sense.  Bob (FLTRI) may be a bit stubborn in his responses to AT stuff.  But I don't feel he's far off the mark.  He's just not a fan of the interaction with the PV...  His knowledge and tuning principles apply to any tuning product.  Preference is the human factor.

He mentioned a different Tuner, neither PV or TTS, for their Turbo builds.
Ron said something about two bar systems................

[q1svt]

He mentioned a different Tuner, neither PV or TTS, for their Turbo builds.
Ron said something about two bar systems................

Interesting... adds a 2bar sensor and runs TMax

http://traskperformance.com/product/thundermax-fuel-injection-module-wauto-tune/

[azlou66]

I don't think it has to do with cubic inch or exactly what the compression ratio is.  It has to do more with what else comes along with bigger builds.  The cams and the free flowing exhaust that is required not to choke down that top end HP.  Bigger flowing TB's and heads.  This can all lead to poor sampling of O2.

TT is based on the simple assumption that your sampling is perfect in all areas.  If that is the case.  TT should be able to hold a target/ desired lambda/AFR with in a tolerances.

This is what I was told.  The further from stock you are the more parameters you need to be able to adjust, maybe more then a target tune device can account for. On a mild motor like mine it should work well and thus far has.