Target tune closer to coming to market?

[hdmanillac]

 

I'd like to see some informations about:

- How to set the map load normalization with a WOT run.
- How to set IVO & IVC MAP Tooth when new cames are bolt in.
- How to set Charge Dilution Effect Front & Rear. TTS do that automatically now.

[glens]

So Glen, now that you are starting to think thru the limits of the narrow bands, are you going over to the other side to take all the advantages of widebands and start aiming for the AFR you really want to run a motor at?

Andy

No.

What made you think I was thinking through any limits?

[joe_lyons]

I'd like to see some informations about:

- How to set the map load normalization with a WOT run.
- How to set IVO & IVC MAP Tooth when new cames are bolt in.
- How to set Charge Dilution Effect Front & Rear. TTS do that automatically now.

It's easier in the dyno room but you need to figure out what your baro pressure is for the day and area your in.  Record a WOT run from 1500rpm up to 6000 rpm.  If you need you can do this in different gears.  For example my baro pressure usually hangs around 97-98 KPA here in KC.  If the recording does not match the KPA I have here I raise or lower the KPA multiplier by .01.  If it shows 100kpa I lower it by .02 and if it shows 94 KPA I raise it by .04.  It is a good idea to make sure your air cleaner is very clean,  if its a K&N just clean it and not oil it yet.

[Jamie Long]

There is a new user guide as well as a series of how to videos on the way.

[hrdtail78]

Didn't see "on it's way"

[GregOn2Wheels]

I agree with the need for updated PV documentation to include TT operation.  As far as I know, there isn't a single page of documentation that addresses TT operation and tuning. 

I've griped for a couple of years about the lack of any meaningful guidance from DJ on setting CDE values, but at least we have access to the feature and can experiment.  The much bigger concern for me is that end users (does not include tuners apparently) have no access to IVO/IVC. This is close to being unacceptable to me.

Since there is no TT documentation, I'll mention two things I've learned for the benefit of other users: 1) not a huge deal, but Acceleration Enrichment Multiplier and Deceleration Enleanment Multiplier must both be set to 1.0 with TT. You can still change AE and DE values individually, but do NOT use the multipliers. For some reason, setting the multipliers to values other than 1.0 causes some (but not all) lambda targets used when the engine is running to be different than the lambda values the tune has in its target AFR table. 2) Once Jamie or DJ converts your tune to a TT version, do NOT perform a "Update Tune using PV" function in WinPV.  DJ had an update since I've had TT and like I always do after installing updates, I updated my tune to add any new features. When I did, I lost the conversion to TT that Jamie did to my tune when I bought my TT. I got a CEL as soon as I started the bike with the WinPV-updated tune loaded and found DTCs for the front and rear O2 sensors.  Not a huge issue as long as the heaters got the startup command when the bike started. I know from past experience that a Bosch 4.2 sensor will last for less than a minute with exhaust gases flowing across it and the heaters turned off during a cold start.  I'll know tonight whether or not this happened. If it did, I'll let DJ know that I expect free replacement sensors since their software allowed this to happen and since there is no documentation telling TT users not to upgrade their tunes. This also makes me wonder how TT users are suppose to upgrade when new features are added.

[hdmanillac]

The much bigger concern for me is that end users (does not include tuners apparently) have no access to IVO/IVC. This is close to being unacceptable to me.

[Jamie Long]

I agree with the need for updated PV documentation to include TT operation.  As far as I know, there isn't a single page of documentation that addresses TT operation and tuning. 

I've griped for a couple of years about the lack of any meaningful guidance from DJ on setting CDE values, but at least we have access to the feature and can experiment.  The much bigger concern for me is that end users (does not include tuners apparently) have no access to IVO/IVC. This is close to being unacceptable to me.

Since there is no TT documentation, I'll mention two things I've learned for the benefit of other users: 1) not a huge deal, but Acceleration Enrichment Multiplier and Deceleration Enleanment Multiplier must both be set to 1.0 with TT. You can still change AE and DE values individually, but do NOT use the multipliers. For some reason, setting the multipliers to values other than 1.0 causes some (but not all) lambda targets used when the engine is running to be different than the lambda values the tune has in its target AFR table. 2) Once Jamie or DJ converts your tune to a TT version, do NOT perform a "Update Tune using PV" function in WinPV.  DJ had an update since I've had TT and like I always do after installing updates, I updated my tune to add any new features. When I did, I lost the conversion to TT that Jamie did to my tune when I bought my TT. I got a CEL as soon as I started the bike with the WinPV-updated tune loaded and found DTCs for the front and rear O2 sensors.  Not a huge issue as long as the heaters got the startup command when the bike started. I know from past experience that a Bosch 4.2 sensor will last for less than a minute with exhaust gases flowing across it and the heaters turned off during a cold start.  I'll know tonight whether or not this happened. If it did, I'll let DJ know that I expect free replacement sensors since their software allowed this to happen and since there is no documentation telling TT users not to upgrade their tunes. This also makes me wonder how TT users are suppose to upgrade when new features are added.

We do not recommend using the AE/DE multipliers, edit the tables directly. The multipliers are also going to be removed in the future, no good reason to have them in there.

You can Update Tune with Pv in WinPv with a Target Tune map. This does require WinPv version 2.0.8.1500, 2.0.19-1506 or later FW, and tune database of 0.0.9.33 or later. Being curious I just updated several TT tunes on various windows machines here with consumer software and then verified everything was still there and correct on my office computer with calibrator mode. If you have a copy of the map that caused the engine light please email it to jamie@fuelmotousa.com along with the specific fw/sw & tune database that was in your PV with this happened.

With Target Tune the O2 heaters are controlled by the TT module not the ECM, the sensors are powered at key-on at all times.

[GregOn2Wheels]

Jamie - it was after I upgraded to WinPV version 2.0.8.1500 and 2.0.19-1506 firmware that I had this problem, so I have the latest versions of everything.  To double check, I also verified versions with the WinPV update client.  I'll send the offending tune to your email.

Are there issues other than the AE/DE Multipliers I mentioned that TT users should be aware of?  Early adopters should expect a problem here and there, but we also expect transparency on the part of the manufacture concerning defects - especially with a product like PV.  Not only would it help us early adopters, but it would help DJ and FM as well.  I don't think you need a business 101 lesson from me or anyone else to understand why.

[Jamie Long]

Jamie - it was after I upgraded to WinPV version 2.0.8.1500 and 2.0.19-1506 firmware that I had this problem, so I have the latest versions of everything.  To double check, I also verified versions with the WinPV update client.  I'll send the offending tune to your email.

Are there issues other than the AE/DE Multipliers I mentioned that TT users should be aware of?  Early adopters should expect a problem here and there, but we also expect transparency on the part of the manufacture concerning defects - especially with a product like PV.  Not only would it help us early adopters, but it would help DJ and FM as well.  I don't think you need a business 101 lesson from me or anyone else to understand why.

I received the map that you updated and there was nothing that was affected or changed within the tune. Comparing this tune to one of the earlier maps you sent me in WinPv shows the only differences were the minor edits you made to a few of the tuning tables, everything else is exactly same.   

You noted "it was after I upgraded to WinPV version 2.0.8.1500 and 2.0.19-1506 firmware" that you had issues. If this was the case that means you were previously using a non current version before you updated which is likely the root of your issue as 2.0.8.1500 sw and 2.0.19-1506 fw are the minimum versions required for use with Target Tune. Not exactly sure what may have went wrong or where, however I would try updating the tune using PV again and report back with your findings.

[Jamie Long]

Are there issues other than the AE/DE Multipliers I mentioned that TT users should be aware of? 

We have ran into the following items. The first is if you open a TT-enabled map in non current software, it can strip the Target Tune tables from the background of the calibration, the same will happen if you load a TT-enabled map to a PV with non-current firmware. It is essential that everything is updated when starting with Target Tune. We have found that using Quick Tune to edit TT-enabled calibrations can affect some TT maps depending on the build level. The only other thing we have seen is a few users have selected the Auto Tune Pro application rather than the Target Tune Auto Tune application, which again can break the tune.

[GregOn2Wheels]

Are there issues other than the AE/DE Multipliers I mentioned that TT users should be aware of? 

We have ran into the following items. The first is if you open a TT-enabled map in non current software, it can strip the Target Tune tables from the background of the calibration, the same will happen if you load a TT-enabled map to a PV with non-current firmware. It is essential that everything is updated when starting with Target Tune. We have found that using Quick Tune to edit TT-enabled calibrations can affect some TT maps depending on the build level. The only other thing we have seen is a few users have selected the Auto Tune Pro application rather than the Target Tune Auto Tune application, which again can break the tune.

Thank you Jamie

[Mossy73]

Jamie -

its easy to hit the wrong auto tune application with big digits in gloves. Not happened yet, but for our information, if suspected, would the fix and to rule out error be as simple as copying and pasting current Ve's to the original TT enabled Cal ?

Manual and the odd how-to video would be a Godsend.

Chris.

[hrdtail78]

We do not recommend using the AE/DE multipliers, edit the tables directly. The multipliers are also going to be removed in the future, no good reason to have them in there.

Are you saying that there is no need to have a AE/DE table in a fuel injection system?  Or DJ is going to take away the table but it is still going to be there in the back ground?

[GregOn2Wheels]

We do not recommend using the AE/DE multipliers, edit the tables directly. The multipliers are also going to be removed in the future, no good reason to have them in there.

Are you saying that there is no need to have a AE/DE table in a fuel injection system?  Or DJ is going to take away the table but it is still going to be there in the back ground?

The AE/DE tables will still be there and the engine temperature-specific multiplier values will still be (correctly) applied.  The item that can't be used with TT is the AE and DE "multiplier multipliers" or stated differently, the across-the-board multiplier that increases or decreases all of the engine temperature specific AE or DE multipliers.

[Jamie Long]

Jamie -

its easy to hit the wrong auto tune application with big digits in gloves. Not happened yet, but for our information, if suspected, would the fix and to rule out error be as simple as copying and pasting current Ve's to the original TT enabled Cal ?

Manual and the odd how-to video would be a Godsend.

Chris.

You can use the TT-Auto Tune application or WinPv for making tune edits. I do not recommend copying/pasting tables or using value files from other maps into a Target Tune calibration, this can break the tune.   

[Jamie Long]

We do not recommend using the AE/DE multipliers, edit the tables directly. The multipliers are also going to be removed in the future, no good reason to have them in there.

Are you saying that there is no need to have a AE/DE table in a fuel injection system?  Or DJ is going to take away the table but it is still going to be there in the back ground?

Not saying anything like that at all. PV calibrations have AE/DE tables which will remain in all cals, however there is also a second Multiplier for each table which is not necessary and will be removed.   

[hrdtail78]

We do not recommend using the AE/DE multipliers, edit the tables directly. The multipliers are also going to be removed in the future, no good reason to have them in there.

Are you saying that there is no need to have a AE/DE table in a fuel injection system?  Or DJ is going to take away the table but it is still going to be there in the back ground?

Not saying anything like that at all. PV calibrations have AE/DE tables which will remain in all cals, however there is also a second Multiplier for each table which is not necessary and will be removed.

OK.  You are talking the offset table and not the main table.  Got it.

[Teardrop]

I consider myself a retard when it comes to tuning but I do like to tinker and do my own work on the bike. I purchased my PV about 6 months after they first came out and loaded the map that was provided. I did nothing to that map for 6 months because I thought my bike ran great. I then messed with the tune and did a bunch of tuning runs using the narrow band sensors and thought my bike ran even better. I then upgraded to a 103 with cams, etc. and at the same time I purchased an AT100. Got a new map from FM and have done countless runs dialing in my bike and again I thought my bike ran great. Last week I installed the Target Tune module, loaded the map and took it for a 100 mile ride. My bike has never ran so good. The motor just seems happy no matter how I ride it. I think Dyno Jet hit this one out of the ball park when they came out with target tune. It was worth every penny. Oh and I didn't mention it but after going to a 103 w/cams I had it dynode twice and the tuner could never get the ping eliminated totally so I always went back to the map FM provided. My bike is a 2010 FLHTCU.

[hdmanillac]

Nearly the same story for me except I tune my bike myself and there is no more pinging since A48H are in.

Good Job DJ with Target Tune !

[GregOn2Wheels]

I consider myself a retard when it comes to tuning but I do like to tinker and do my own work on the bike. I purchased my PV about 6 months after they first came out and loaded the map that was provided. I did nothing to that map for 6 months because I thought my bike ran great. I then messed with the tune and did a bunch of tuning runs using the narrow band sensors and thought my bike ran even better. I then upgraded to a 103 with cams, etc. and at the same time I purchased an AT100. Got a new map from FM and have done countless runs dialing in my bike and again I thought my bike ran great. Last week I installed the Target Tune module, loaded the map and took it for a 100 mile ride. My bike has never ran so good. The motor just seems happy no matter how I ride it. I think Dyno Jet hit this one out of the ball park when they came out with target tune. It was worth every penny. Oh and I didn't mention it but after going to a 103 w/cams I had it dynode twice and the tuner could never get the ping eliminated totally so I always went back to the map FM provided. My bike is a 2010 FLHTCU.

This exactly mirrors my experience with PV, then PV with AT and now PV with TT.

[misfitJason]

So with tt you must leave the widebands on and the module on all the time.  So it's kinda like thundermax

[FLTRI]

I consider myself a retard when it comes to tuning but I do like to tinker and do my own work on the bike. I purchased my PV about 6 months after they first came out and loaded the map that was provided. I did nothing to that map for 6 months because I thought my bike ran great. I then messed with the tune and did a bunch of tuning runs using the narrow band sensors and thought my bike ran even better. I then upgraded to a 103 with cams, etc. and at the same time I purchased an AT100. Got a new map from FM and have done countless runs dialing in my bike and again I thought my bike ran great. Last week I installed the Target Tune module, loaded the map and took it for a 100 mile ride. My bike has never ran so good. The motor just seems happy no matter how I ride it. I think Dyno Jet hit this one out of the ball park when they came out with target tune. It was worth every penny. Oh and I didn't mention it but after going to a 103 w/cams I had it dynode twice and the tuner could never get the ping eliminated totally so I always went back to the map FM provided. My bike is a 2010 FLHTCU.

This sounds like you purchased a PV tuner to get your bike tuned in...then purchased the AT100 kit to get your bike tuned in...then purchased the target tune to get your bike tuned in...and now you got your bike tuned in.
Have you added up the $$ and time invested in getting your bike tuned in? Then again, maybe you don't want to know.
Bob

[hrdtail78]

About $1100 for hardware bought from a dot com.

[whittlebeast]

Too bad target tune just came out now.  He could have been done with one call to fuelmotousa  and a few hours of riding.