Target tune closer to coming to market?

[whittlebeast]

Glens, I have found that any one wideband AFR gauge to be fairly consistant.  14 on my gauge is just a number.  Richer than 15 in my gauge, but 15 is also just a number.  My motor likes my gauge to be at 14 around town and 13 at WOT.  I typically set the VEs first to give consistent AFRs and then test with the target AFR table to see what my motor wants.

What else can you do until the really good AFR gauges hit the market?

Everything I have seen in the logs indicates the TT is the best system out there.  By a huge margin.

Andy

[whittlebeast]

Here is back to back testing of the same motor on the same day and the same tune running open loop.  The only change is the wideband and data logger.

http://www.nbs-stl.com/MLVDemo/330%20Two%20O2%20Sensors.PNG

Widebands can be different.

Andy

[Sarhan]

Here is back to back testing of the same motor on the same day and the same tune running open loop.  The only change is the wideband and data logger.

http://www.nbs-stl.com/MLVDemo/330%20Two%20O2%20Sensors.PNG

Widebands can be different.

Andy

Hello Andy

This raises all sorts of new questions .. Are these bikes tuned well? what's the alternative to over come the wideband reading differences? Exciting subject...

Cheers

Sarhan

[HD/Wrench]

Tune to the max power for WOT .

[98fxstc]

Tune to the max power for WOT .

What do you go for first up ?
What is usual difference you may find ?

[HD/Wrench]

Tune to the max power for WOT .

What do you go for first up ?
What is usual difference you may find ?

Difference ?? How would I know I use test gas and that is the best I can do..  I use the tools I have and tune the bike.. If the bike is very happy with a timing curve and I set it at 12.8  AFR WOT and at  hot temps no ping then there you have it.. Will AFR vary with the wide band sure . always been that way. But the HD is not extremely sensitive to that so good thing. 

[98fxstc]

Tune to the max power for WOT .

What do you go for first up ?
What is usual difference you may find ?

Difference ?? How would I know I use test gas and that is the best I can do..  I use the tools I have and tune the bike.. If the bike is very happy with a timing curve and I set it at 12.8  AFR WOT and at  hot temps no ping then there you have it.. Will AFR vary with the wide band sure . always been that way. But the HD is not extremely sensitive to that so good thing.

I was wondering about your preferred AFR for max power at WOT
(After VE's have been done)
So you start with 12.8 , and I guess you would look at , say 12.6 and 13.0 , either side of 12.8 , for a WOT pull ,to see if max power goes up ?
The difference I was asking about was in the end result .
Thanks

[joe_lyons]

I start at 13 and then add 3 units, then record results, same with minus 3.  While also testing adding 2 and minus 2 degrees of timing to each iteration.  This is where a PCV comes in handy on a dyno for quick changes and steady results, but handy as a tool only.

[Hilly13]

Adjust the pc5 live can you Joe?

[rageglide]

I start at 13 and then add 3 units, then record results, same with minus 3.  While also testing adding 2 and minus 2 degrees of timing to each iteration.  This is where a PCV comes in handy on a dyno for quick changes and steady results, but handy as a tool only.

A guy I know swears by PCVs and swears at PVs.  For exactly the reasons you mention.  He tunes for several heavy hitters who are land speed record holders.  One might argue, ok, he knows the 100% throttle thing well..   I tell him, but dude, I ride the bike at all RPMs.  He laughs.  Bob (FLTRI) taught him EFI tuning and he has a lot of respect for him.   But he seriously hates all flash tuners.  Bobs not far behind since he only loves one.  :-)

[joe_lyons]

Adjust the pc5 live can you Joe?

Yes..?

I start at 13 and then add 3 units, then record results, same with minus 3.  While also testing adding 2 and minus 2 degrees of timing to each iteration.  This is where a PCV comes in handy on a dyno for quick changes and steady results, but handy as a tool only.

A guy I know swears by PCVs and swears at PVs.  For exactly the reasons you mention.  He tunes for several heavy hitters who are land speed record holders.  One might argue, ok, he knows the 100% throttle thing well..   I tell him, but dude, I ride the bike at all RPMs.  He laughs.  Bob (FLTRI) taught him EFI tuning and he has a lot of respect for him.   But he seriously hates all flash tuners.  Bobs not far behind since he only loves one.  :-)

Some people have their own ideas.  There is a local guy that is revered as a great engine builder and tuner but all he can use is PCV as its the simplest for him to understand coming from carbs and not wanting to learn about FI tuning.  He also believes that in a PCV map there should never be a minus number because he never went smaller jetting on a carburetor. Lol

[rigidthumper]

Adjust the pc5 live can you Joe?

Yes..?

I start at 13 and then add 3 units, then record results, same with minus 3.  While also testing adding 2 and minus 2 degrees of timing to each iteration.  This is where a PCV comes in handy on a dyno for quick changes and steady results, but handy as a tool only.

A guy I know swears by PCVs and swears at PVs.  For exactly the reasons you mention.  He tunes for several heavy hitters who are land speed record holders.  One might argue, ok, he knows the 100% throttle thing well..   I tell him, but dude, I ride the bike at all RPMs.  He laughs.  Bob (FLTRI) taught him EFI tuning and he has a lot of respect for him.   But he seriously hates all flash tuners.  Bobs not far behind since he only loves one.  :-)

Some people have their own ideas.  There is a local guy that is revered as a great engine builder and tuner but all he can use is PCV as its the simplest for him to understand coming from carbs and not wanting to learn about FI tuning.  He also believes that in a PCV map there should never be a minus number because he never went smaller jetting on a carburetor. Lol

And he went to the same factory race tuner class 

[joe_lyons]

Some people get it and some people don't.

[HD/Wrench]

I use the 12.8 as 99% of the all tunes are E10 so with the approx .3 leaner afr due to the corn juice .. works out the best.. The funny thing is al cruise the afr needs to be more precise for great MPG and no ping. BUT WOT you can run them at 11.8 to 13.0 and not see a huge increase or decrease.. Just had one that was running 10.8 approx flat.. so some one had tuned it but it was rich. Leaned it out and it made 3-4 + across the board.  No try that on a import multi valve  and you are in for a rude awakening ..

[rageglide]

If you run Target Tune with WBs, how will you know if the values are actually correct?

Below is a log snippet for a bike NOT running TT, but running off the NBs and monitoring with WBs...  steady state, closed loop.  The tune was done on a dyno.  Notice the Set Lambda is close-ish when compared to the Lambda1/2 (NBs), but the WBO2s are significantly different.  It seems to me, if this tune was converted to run off the WBs using TT it would run leaner using the same AFR and VE tables.   So, in that case it would make NO difference that it was a well developed VE table. 

[attach=0]

[whittlebeast]

If you run Target Tune with WBs, how will you know if the values are actually correct?

Do about an hour long log and post up the data. 

Andy

[rageglide]

If you run Target Tune with WBs, how will you know if the values are actually correct?

Do about an hour long log and post up the data. 

Andy

I'm not running TT, I have the AT-110 kit and an monitoring the NB.  I'm wearing two watches lol   My point is, if the WBs are reading drastically different than the NBs, What happens when running TT using the same professional tuned map?

Or are you just suggesting I log more data because you'd like to see if you can see a problem? 
Bob

[harleytuner]

If you run Target Tune with WBs, how will you know if the values are actually correct?

Do about an hour long log and post up the data. 

Andy

I'm not running TT, I have the AT-110 kit and an monitoring the NB.  I'm wearing two watches lol   My point is, if the WBs are reading drastically different than the NBs, What happens when running TT using the same professional tuned map?

Or are you just suggesting I log more data because you'd like to see if you can see a problem? 
Bob

None of these systems are any better than the sensors gathering data, period.

[whittlebeast]

I'm not running TT, I have the AT-110 kit and an monitoring the NB.  I'm wearing two watches lol   My point is, if the WBs are reading drastically different than the NBs, What happens when running TT using the same professional tuned map?

Or are you just suggesting I log more data because you'd like to see if you can see a problem? 
Bob

Yes,  I would love to see a data log.  A screen shot form excel is way too painful.

Andy

[rageglide]

None of these systems are any better than the sensors gathering data, period.

May as well run Carbs  :-)

[rageglide]

I'm not running TT, I have the AT-110 kit and an monitoring the NB.  I'm wearing two watches lol   My point is, if the WBs are reading drastically different than the NBs, What happens when running TT using the same professional tuned map?

Or are you just suggesting I log more data because you'd like to see if you can see a problem? 
Bob

Yes,  I would love to see a data log.  A screen shot form excel is way too painful.

Andy

The screen shot was just showing how completely out of whack things look.  I'll send you the log (and tonights) if you want, combined it's about 50 mins.   ok?
Bob

[whittlebeast]

50 min is fine.

[rigidthumper]

That is why test gas is used at most dyno facilities- gives them a way to verify the WBs are reading accurately.  If the 02 sensor reports something different than what the test gas normally reads, it's time for a new sensor.
Quick video shows how DynoJet does it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h57zcZtfixc

[Onthefence]

If you run Target Tune with WBs, how will you know if the values are actually correct?

Below is a log snippet for a bike NOT running TT, but running off the NBs and monitoring with WBs...  steady state, closed loop.  The tune was done on a dyno.  Notice the Set Lambda is close-ish when compared to the Lambda1/2 (NBs), but the WBO2s are significantly different.  It seems to me, if this tune was converted to run off the WBs using TT it would run leaner using the same AFR and VE tables.   So, in that case it would make NO difference that it was a well developed VE table. 

[attach=0]

Wbo2 and lambda are different on mine as well.  Are the Wbo2 and the lambda channels calculated from the same device?  I thought the Ecm calculated the Wbo2 and lambda was calculated by TT or AT. 

My converted AT to TT Tune didn't want to make any significant adjustments when tuned with TT.  My guess is the difference in output lies in the calculation. 

The only sure way to know is to compare to yet a third measurement and hopefully two of the 3 agree ish.

[whittlebeast]

Post up a log and let's see what is going on.